BEAR-AvHistory

Not sure what the real numbers are but the current 8/11 issue of Car & Driver page 62 has a road test on the new Charger. As part of the article they posted a graph of some competitors quickest to slowest 0-60 & 1/4 mile times among other things. All are AT cars

1. Taurus SHO 5.2 / 13.7

2. Charger 5.2 / 13.8

3. Genesis 4.6 5.3 / 13.9

4 TL SH-AWD 6.2 / 14.7


Car & Driver in another article said this about the 535:

"We knew this car’s 4075-pound weight—nearly 200 pounds heftier than the old 535i—would hamper it in a drag race, but we were surprised by how much slower this car is. We clocked a 0.6-second increase in the 0-to-60 time, which grew to 5.8 seconds. The quarter-mile took an extra half-second, ticking past in 14.3 at 100 mph, 2 mph slower than the old 535i." Motor Trend shows the 535 8sp at 5.6 /14.1

Looks like the old 535 version at 5.2 / 13.8 is the one the TL-SHAWD 6sp should be careful with.

That being said looks like the SHO is the best of them all.

BTW the problem with the TL vid is the car is moving at the 1 second mark in the tape & does not get to 60 till halfway through the 7 second mark. I would not bet my life on the accuracy of a $10 cell phone app.

pickler

im going to keep replying with this image everytime someone talks about straight line performance:

Camry V6!!!

winstrolvtec

I don't know, but when you see street starts that close and traps as similar as they are while the other stats are that distant, there has to be some type of discrepancy. Safe to say that definately the brake torquing makes up the most of the ET gap but I'm wondering if it should account for that much?

Maybe, since all that torque is on demand even while brake torquing but it's strange that there is a notable difference when considering the actual technique and it being applied, where as without it, there probably is barely an acceleration gap.

The two 5's are very much in line as far as acceleration and one is a 6MT RWD, the other an 8AT AWD, so while I don't expect as much of a similarity between the two TL's, the difference seems like it's way more than it should be.

Just an observation but C&D is IMO notorious for getting the worst AT 4G TL times. I also don't understand why there is no other tests of the 6AT SH, a bunch of reviews with estimates but no performance testing.

I pretty much agree with most of this assessment but I am finding that 60 mph on the tach is hit around 7 seconds flat, minus the 1 second intially. At around 7.5 seconds, the tach almost reads 65 mph, I think. Still, there is problem the problem of the intial time lapse and how accurate the tach is.

NwTSXmt

that was good....

jjsC5

Did you by any chance look at my signature? I have a car with a manual transmission. And it's not by a long shot the first car I have owned with a manual. I have practical reasons for wanting my daily driver to be an automatic but I see no need to defend myself any further.

As to the other responses to mine, I respect the opinions and there have been some very good responses. I'll just say that I have not driven a 11 535 yet so I could be wrong in my thinking. But for now I'm just going to repeat that based upon what I know, the 535 would be my preference over a TL. But the TL does what we want it to and my wife loves it.

And just to be sure everyone understands, I like the car an awful lot myself. In no way were my comments meant to be a criticism of the TL. Simply a response that for the same money I'd get the BMW. But they are not the same money - not even close to the same money.

BEAR-AvHistory

Thing is mid-upper 6's/14's is not that bad. Would fit right in with a majority of the '60's stock muscle cars.

saturno_v

I was not attacking you....you are perfectly fine in wanting an automatic daily driver (I don't but that's me) I was just commenting that for a daily driver, FWD or RWD does not matter that much once you are getting an automatic, IMHO...you have already killed the pleasure of driving factor with the slushbox....when you like driving in a certain way you always got your Z06....

There is nohing wrong in wanting the 535 over the TL....some people simply like the style of the 5 Series better...period....I'm simply debating that the 535 is not superior to the TL from any rational/technical/performance point of view.

Again......considering your garage, 10-15K gap is not that much for a car that you (or your wife) like better as you stated more than once....why didn't you get the Bimmer??

winstrolvtec

I agree, it's just that based on other info that is available it appears it's actually good for better than that. Not much better but low-mid, instead of mid-high, even sub 6 sec 0-60, 5.9 for the 5AT and slightly better for the 6AT, in theory.

Viewing the video in a stopwatch like manner is not a bad way to get an idea of what the car runs but we have to also consider a reasonable deduction for the 1 ft roll out, therefore it can't be measured as simply as when the engine starts revving.

BEAR-AvHistory

A few 1/10's one way or another does not mean much even with back to back runs which these tests are not. There is no way to match magazine C vs R vs M because of different days, tracks & geographical locations even if it was all done with the same "press car".

Anyone with any breakout racing experience knows to add some time in the afternoon eliminations over what the car was running in the morning time trials. Most likely next time out you will have a whole new set of numbers to work with. Only thing the posted numbers can give you is a range that a pro driver can obtain & no one in their right mid will abuse a car they have to pay for the way a magazine will to get a better number then a rival.

That's why its so much fun to read the pissing contests here then the whining about how slow someone's car is when they actually venture to the track.

jjsC5

Two reasons. One is that I'm 58 years old and like most of us, my savings has not grown much in the past three years. Just because I have some nice stuff doesn't mean I have all the money I need to retire yet!

Also, I've always been about value. I understand the concept of "diminishing returns". The BMW is nice, but incremental improvements cost disproportionately more money that in some cases are worth it to me, and some cases are not. In this case my wife is nowhere near the car nut I am, so for her car it's not worth it. In fact, before we got the car she asked if an Accord would be something we should consider. Even though the TL we got is disproportionately more money than an Accord, it has some important features that we considered "must haves"

The debate it is good debate - which I like. Some good folks on this forum.

jjsC5

I agree. Besides the fact that I've been reading car magazines for 46 years now, I also have quite a bit of racing experience. I roadraced motorcycles, and have taken a few of my Corvettes to to the drag strip and auto-crosses from time-to-time.

I'm pretty knowledgeable of the performance times. I can tell you that beyond just the numbers that my Lexus feels quite a bit faster than my Acura. Some of it doesn't show up in foot-to-the-floor numbers because they don't reflect the overall responsiveness in normal driving. The Lexus engine and transmission are noticeably more responsive in normal driving for instance.

compewterbleu

My thoughts are this...if you looked at Larry Bird or Tom Brady at just their athletic value you might pass...but when you see what they bring to the table otherwise you're like damn! I'm a Knicks fan and Falcons fan and not really a fan of either but I truly appreciate what the embodiment of their skills, talents, and knowledge.
Heck even Jerry Rice wasn't the fasted WR, but he was the best, ever. 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are great, but are they truly applicable to the daily drive? I get caught up on the times myself every now and then, but I come back to the reality that it's about the overall package for me.

Stew4HD

^ Indeed.. what does having the best 0-60 time REALLY bring you? How often does that even come into play? So what if it takes me 1.3 seconds longer to hit 60 than some other cars? ..And how many drivers here are professional drivers and can hit the shift times so well to achieve that low number?

saturno_v

I just returned back from work....on the way I wanted to stop at the Audi dealership to have another look at the A7....I ask if they had a fully loaded one which they had, the 3.0 T prestige......inside the showroom there was an A7 non prestige (standard seats) and I cannot tell you how "poor" the seats felt....narrow, non contoured, no bolsters.....I felt like sitting on a Civic and I'm not joking...the seats of a Mazda 6 felt better than that...

So we reach this white prestige in the parking lot....very nice car on the outside...I still like better the TL but that is highly subjective...

I sit inside and the seats are only marginally better (the perforated and ventilated package) still a far cry from the TL.

In the back seats the story is the same...the TL are fatter, better contoured...

I noticed only marginally (at best) more refined finishing in some areas while some other are worse,....look at the door seals and door panel thickness...the seats pivot points plastic covers are literally flapping.

Nice full alluminum insert, I still like better the TL metal finishing grid pattern (which is real metal contrary to what many believe).

The door panels design look simpler and less refined...no vertical door handles like the TL, just the regular "pits"...the door pockets are hard plastic as the TL no more no less...

So the finishing is somewhat a wash (being generous here)
The design, in my opinion, is "richer" in the TL.

The A7 prestige has more electronic toys compared to the TL......HUD display and night vision, Google search, retractable mirrors.

If you pay the extra you get your Bang & Olufsen stereo system (1300 watt) which I do believe is still a 2.1 system.

8 speed transission instead of 6....in my case I do not care because I drive manual...

Sticker price??? Drumroll.......................79.5K!!! Are they freaking kidding me?? Almost double the price of a fully loaded TL SH-AWD....and despite the higher accessory count, the TL still has some edge....no sport differential in the A7, no weather radar, no GPS-linked climate system.

The seats, for me, are the biggest letdown...

Talking about dininishing return....

BEAR-AvHistory

Do you feel better now?......seems like a lot of wasted effort for someone who is happy with what they have.

Why not compare the TL with a BMW 650 that goes out the door @ $110,000 & you might feel even better about your car being $70K cheaper. Of course the guy who bought a Chevy Malibu for $30,000 most likely thinks you wasted $10K on the TL.

Mr Marco

+1
I intend to die young, but not for a very long time.

saturno_v

Talking about apples and tangerine here....

A BMW 650 is a V8 dual turbocharged coupe all wrapped in leather......a Malibu is a FWD econo family sedan where you cannot even get leather in the first place I think....never mind the technology options.

The TL and the A7 are comparable in category (large 4 door sedans), size, power (about 300 horses) and overall technology (both permanent AWD, both with front double wishbone and rear multilink suspension)

The dealer was just on my way...no detour..I spent a total of 15 minutes (if that) and I like to look at new cars often....you do that only to feel better about yourself?? No offense but that was a really silly comment....of someone that has nothing constructive to say...

winstrolvtec

Again, I agree, that has basically been the basis for my argument the whole time, you really can't race numbers, provided they are close enough to begin with. The problem is too many people take a time difference (and in most cases a very small one) as gospel and often make more of it than it might actually be.

And in most cases, it only serves as a basis and for a certain sets of circumstances. A faster car may not actually be better suited for daily driving than a slower car and vice versa, and it is also entirely possible for a car to feel much faster or slower than it actually is, which is the focal point of the discussion here more recently.

I think this has been an excellent point since it's been brought up but it is important to distinquish the difference between the two driving scenarios and also how normal driving feel may not necessarily be entirely related to faster or slower. It's very commom for cars to have very different driving characteristics and feels regardless of how they relate to each in performance numbers.

Torque, and also at what point in the powerband it's available, tends to give one that fast moving sensation even if it isn't actually accelerating all that well. Then there is gearing, drivetrain, weight, etc, etc. I kid you not, a CR-V feels like it's faster than even my TL 6MT but it's clearly one of the slower cars I've driven in a while. In either case, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, it's just different.

FWIW, I do think the 535 and GS 350 are slightly faster than the SH AT but as I have been saying, I think that is only a small part of why they might feel better suited for daily driving.

jasonwdp10

saturno_v, If you buy based on bang-for-your-buck, you'll rarely venture out of economy cars and acura/infiniti. Everything else has prestige and unnecessary options tacked on to increase the price.

I wouldn't say that Audi does so many things badly as you state though. When I first drove the A5 (i'm using the A5 since it's a car i'm familiar with), I hated the way the seats (just normal A5 seats, no premium leather or sports pkg) looked and felt. Later, I realized that while they appeared to be more narrow and looked less supportive, they held me in a lot better (than even the shawd seats) when turning and had better back support than both my TLs. It also had more adjustments than the TL. The S5 I looked at had even better seats with a thigh extention piece.

In the A5, there is real wood, and some items (door handle? inserts, some knobs, switches) were either real metal, or metal plated. Unlike the silver painted plastic that floods the TL's cabin.

There's a sliding arm rest, a spot for a cell phone, change slots located next to the shifter. It also has a dedicated compartment for an ipod. The TL, which has no place to put a phone and has a change cubby inconveniently located directly infront of the shifter, which makes change difficult to get with the shifter directly infront of it when parked)

The A5 had (but no longer has) steering linked HIDs that were also self leveling.

6 speed auto that shifts faster than the TLs 5 speed. Manual shift gate for the auto.

The A5 has a reverse cam that has normal parking lines and a steering linked line that shows you where you're going, vs the system in the TL,. It also has (or had) back up sensors standard.

The "MID" for the A5 shows what's playing, shows navigation turns, etc. You can also (and quickly) scroll through albums and music, unlike the TL's which moves at a snails pace.

It has a significantly stronger a/c system and some ridiculous number of fan speeds and heat levels for the seats (somewhere between 7-11?)

Split folding rear seats. Frameless doors.

Can't think of any more at the moment..

You're also paying for the prestige and looks. Looks may be subjective, but do you really want me to start linking the number of reviews of the A5/S5 that had most people drooling.. vs the reviews of the TL that most people generally hated (its looks)? I've taken both the A5 and my TL on road trips, and can say that the A5 EASILY gets more looks. For some, that alone is worth the price premium ($10k comparably equipped).

The A5 also (despite the hp disadvantage) has much more low end torque, or at least more torque earlier. It's worse for FE, but it can easily get moving in daily driving. Whereas in the TL, while having a flatter torque curve, needs to be revved higher to get any power.

btw, the A7 is not a sedan, it's a 5 door that happens to look like a sedan..

I'm curious as to why would one go just to test drive other cars and instead of having fun, complain about everything then come to the conclusion that the more expensive car was more expensive?

also not sure why you'd go out of your way 2x (since you went "to have another look") for a car that clearly does not fit your budget?

BEAR-AvHistory

The point of the 650 mention is does any car really have a $100,000+ of content? They are of course "worth" what some one will pay for them. That brings up an interesting point. By weight my Ford Expedition EP 4X4 has about 2X the content of your TL & has all the electronic goodies along with A/C leather seats, memory steering & pedals etc but did not cost 2X the TL.

Content is not what the price is based on, its based on how much can you sell it for & some cars sell for more then others based on what the general population sees in them. The guy buying the Malibu my have a bit less content then you do but not 10K worth. That spread is the perceived value difference, what people are willing to pay, as opposed to the cost to build cost difference

About 99% of your posts talks better price, cheaper price on & on. Why are you so concerned what others are willing to spend on a car compared to what you are? If you are happy that you bought a cheaper car than PsychDoc, TechnoCat, YetiTL or anyone else more power to you & more power to PsychDoc, TechnoCat, YetiTL or anyone else that they can buy what they want.

Most people will buy what they like & can afford. For those that can't afford what they buy there is always the repo man, natural selection in action.

For some its fun for some to call the BMW - MB - Audi - Lexus guys lemmings, badge happy, dummies etc & I expect like most things there is some truth in that. That being said, in most cases these car lines can go over $100K out the door & the dummies were smart enough to get jobs that lets them enjoy the car they want even if others think its over priced compared to a TL.

By the way if you can't see the Malibu how about an Accord EX-LV6 for 31K MSRP?

saturno_v

I do not buy only based on bang for your buck..I buy what I like period...so far ithappened that what I like has been often the best bang for my buck...

I did not say that Audi did things badly...simply not worth the price difference, in my opinion..

I ride often in Audis (A4 and A6) and sorry but the seats sucks for me...narrow, less contoured and supportive, there is no way around it.....if it has less bolstering and support that is not going to change once you move...actually it gets worse...I do nto think the seats of the A5 you drove sprouts bolstering and get wider once the car start to move....

Never tried an S5,...however the S4 seats still sucks (for me) compared to the TL SH-AWD...

I inform you that the metal looking trim on the TL is, surprise, real metal, a thin textured layer of real metal on a plastic base...look beautiful the same...it's called PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) technology

================================================== ==================================================

The Technology Package also features a 3D metallic trim applied to the instrument panel and doors of the TL. Constructed using Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) technology, the trim makes use of a lightweight plastic base covered by a thin layer of textured metal film applied on the top. As a result, the trim looks and feels as if it was constructed entirely of metal. However, the trim is lighter weight, it can be easily formed to contour tight curves or odd shapes and it won't dent like metal.

================================================== ================================================== =======

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/ar...spx?id=5675-en

Oh, I forgot about that....the TL center armrest is richer and has an extra compartment compared to the A7..
Not to mention the contrast stitched leather...

The TL has ton of spots where you can put your cellphone...sorry for being sarcastic but frankly I have to ask, are you sure you ever sat in one?? Did you ever noticed the side pockets on the central tunnel?? The extra tray in the armrest??

I drove a TL automatic (FWD model) only once (a loaner) and it seems to me that it shifts very well...gave me the impression that was actually quicker than my SH-AWD manual!!!

Infiniti (G and M) has an impressive tech package with unbelievable parking assistance tools...360 degre cameras and sensors...still is competitively priced compared to the TL...the Infiniti M has interiors that put any Audis to shame (except the A8) and still you can get one for less than 47K...

Never had any snail pace issues with my TL electronics....ther are things that 80K A7 did not have compared to my humble TL...no weather radar, no GPS linked climate control...

Have you tested actual temperature?? It all seems to me impressions...My TL climate control has been nothign short of excellent...

True, my biggest gripe with the TL...however I still take the TL rear seats over the plain Accord looking one of the A7...

A cheaper old Subaru Legacy had frameless doors...is that supposed to be some sort of premium feature?? Actually to me is worse in the long run, more source of potential problems...

You are absolutely right about that...that is mainly the vast majority of the price gap...I would pay 10-15K more, tops, than my TL for the A7 Prestige accessories...no one penny more...

No spare me, I know that....however look has nothing to do with technical or engineering finesse....

I must live in weirdland because my TL get lots of looks...not that I care....I think a Mazda 6 is more beautiful than an A5...seriously...

Supercharger vs. natually aspirated.....requires different driving style.....the J engine revs smoother (even a die hard Audi fan friend of mine admits it) and sound better...again...for me...

The A7 is fastback hatchback sedan...period...marketing departments can call it whatever thay want...it's a sedan...exactly like this:




[/quote]

As any car lover, I have fun looking at other cars...more expensive often means lot of value more, in some other cases not...German cars unfortunately, ofen, belong to the second category...again some Infiniti models cost a bit more but offer a bit more as well....I feel that I get my money worth for them, the same for Lexus...

You forgot a base A7 which cost still more than a fully loaded TL SH-AWD and you get crap in terms of accessories...

I never say the the A7 does not fit my budget.....that fact I could afford it doesn't mean I would pony up the cash.....in the 80K there are much better choices...Cadillac CTS-V, BMW 550i, etc.....on the same note, it is pure folly, IMHO, to spend 90K on a Panamera 3.6.....

I do not care what others spend their money on...it is their money and they are free to do whatever they want...what I do not agree with is people that spent the extra money and diss the TL as an inferior car maybe to justify their purchase who knows.....it is not....you got something else, be happy...

I never called people that....if BMW makes the new M5 with available manual transmission and xDrive that will be my dream car rest assured...in the very high end the Germans still have no real competition (well the CTS-V....) but in the mid offering they are simply not price/feature competitive

What about it?? That Accord cost almost 32K (31,9 to be exact) and a mechanically comparable base FWD TL is 35.5...only 3.5K gap....you get better interior, better seats a bit extra power and probably few other goodies...fully justified in my book.....we are not talking 15-20K more...

saturno_v

Jasonwdp10

I forgot to ask you....again, if you think the A5 is so much better and get "more looks" why did you get the TL instead of the A5?? They are very close in price...why didn't you??

Hamma Tyme

I never thought this thread could be more entertaining then the first page or so, but the comparisons made on the 2nd and 3rd pages are priceless!!! Thank you for the entertainment!!!

jasonwdp10

well my budget initially was $33k post tax, and was looking at fully loaded accords, though I HATED VCM on the V6's, and maybe an entry level luxury car.

I then realized that $33k, for the premium class wouldn't buy jack. I then moved the limit to sub-$40k post tax. With that, you can almost buy any decently equipped entry level luxury car. The top cars on my list were the TSX, TL, TL SHAWD ($1k over), G37 sedan, IS250. Other cars I somewhat considered: I didn't like the A4, the A5 V6 fully loaded was about $12k over my budget (same for MB C350, didn't like the 300), even the A5 2.0T was $6k or so over, the lexus dealers wouldn't budge on the price for an IS350 and that was floating close to $50k. In the end, It was down to the TSX V6, TL Base, TL SHAWD, Infiniti G37.

The TSX V6 was excluded due to lack of keyless entry, tighter rear seat, and the fact that they tack on unnecessary options to the V6 pkg that make it a $5k pkg instead of what should be a $2500-3000 pkg. The G was excluded because of the horror stories about fuel economy and the harsh shifting 7 speed auto that plague the G37 forums. So it was down the the two TLs.

I did not have time to wait for the mmc since i work and need a car, so I bought the SHAWD Tech first.... Honestly at this point I was suffering from "new car" over-exposure and just really really wanted a new luxury car after weeks of test drives, I overspent. Fortunately or unfortunately for me, some lady t-bones my SHAWD and totals it about 1/2 way into its first year... I got most, if not all my $ back after months of dealing with both insurance companies, and really just NEEDED another car, thought I still wasn't settling for the VCM V6 accord, so I got the Base TL Tech. (2012's still weren't out yet)

Though now I think i still may have overspent and am starting to find that the TL doesn't really fit my lifestyle (see a few threads below), so I will be looking to sell it and maybe get a cheaper car (possibly/probably non-luxury) so I can save up some $ for other things in life.

ooh and the other reason is that my significant other already drives an A5 and it would be a bit redundant to have 2 A5's lying around. They're also not really similarly priced, as acura's dealers were extremely willing to hack off the price (got both my TL's for significantly below invoice), but the audi (and lexus) dealers wouldn't budge.

pickler

speaking of audis i just smoked an a4 on my way home tonight with my 7 year old tl. i was a car length ahead when i hit the brakes xD

saturno_v

I don't know about your particular situation but the A5 prestige is 36.9K and the top of the line Premium Plus is 45K.

Maybe I'm wrong but if you are in the mindset of spending 35K+ for a car you have options...wait a bit more, lease, buy slightly used, etc...were you without transportation when you got your TL??

In my case if I thought that the 535 or the S4 (the cars I cross shopped) were better cars worth the price difference I would have get that....maybe waiting few more months to squirrel away some extra dough...I usually do not stretch my car budget to the very last dollar and if I want something I'll wait...

In my aarea Audi dealers seems very willing to negotiate....one proposed me a decently equipped S4 for actually less money that the TL MSRP

pickler

audis are just glorified VWs. they are not better than lexus or acura in my opinion. the best audi, the r8, can easily be destroyed on the track by lexus lf-a or nsx-r or hsv. The GT-R from nissan can take care of the 911 turbo or R8 V10 as well. I don't see the hype about audis at all.

jasonwdp10

Back when there was the 3.2 V6 A5, an optioned one was $52k before taxes, the current 2.0 prestige is $47,500 before taxes.. the premium plus is lower than prestige.. where are u getting your prices/option info from?

and yes, i had no car.

As for negotiating, i negotiated, or tried to, with lexus, infiniti, acura, audi. Only audi didn't budge at all, lexus was able to give me invoice or lower on the IS250 but nothing off a IS350, and acura/infiniti both were able to shave thousands off after a little negotiating.

saturno_v

I got my prices infro from www.audiusa.com

The only engine listed is the 2.0 Turbo, the price for the Premium is $36,900, the Premium Plus is $40,600 and the Prestige is 45,600

http://models.audiusa.com/a5-coupe

Prices for the S5 Premium Plus is $53,650 and for the S5 Prestige is $59,550

http://models.audiusa.com/s5-coupe

Did you not have the option to get a cheap car waiting to squirrel away the A5 extra money??

jasonwdp10

nah as much as I wanted the A5 for myself, the gf having one for me to drive whenever made it redundant. So not only would I go over my own set limit by at least 10k, there would basically be 2 of the same car around all the time.

omaralt

are you guys seriously comparing the a5 to the TL? the a5 is a nice car when properly equipped (premium plus or prestige) but it's down almost 100hp to the sh-awd and its' pretty much a two seater with a tiny back seat.. and audi is not really negotiable on the price; they're pretty set... 100 hp is not small difference

Glashub

Jason is buidling a case for himself to justify selling his TL, absorbing the loss, and getting another car. We all do that sort of stuff. Turn something into a monster so that we can distance ourselves from it. It's upgradeitis in a different form. The seeking of the perfect car. I bet if he laid out the dough for an Audi (keep in mind the Audi he drives is on his gf dough) he'd find reasons to complaign about it too imo. I'm much more forgiving of stuff and like that stuff better when I'm not making the payments. My money adds a tension inducing dynamic.

Stew4HD

I was thinking the same thing on Jason's thread about "1 year". He seems to be nit picking the car as a way to justify getting rid of it when, actually, to my eyes and perception, he over bought and the pain is catching up to him. It's good that he is realizing this and working towards a fix. A civic priced car might be his best bet for now.. maybe..

Jason, this is not meant to be a personal attack.. just an observation

Glashub

I am not bashing Jason either. Just looking at this through eyes that have been on this planet 2x as long as his. Depersonalization or labeling something as wrong or evil allows a person to do what that person thinks is necessary without feeling accountability. First we have to build a case or find evidence to support the label so that we remain consistent.

The only problem is that building a justification case here is causing tension in other people.

I wonder why people who love Audi just don't go to Audi forums to bash the TL. People there would support the anti-TL perspective and the TL basher would be of service to by giving those folks additonal reasons to feel better about thier purchase.

Just my .02.

PS- If Jason's gf can afford an S5 at her age...hang on to her as long as she meets other important criteria too.

Stew4HD

Spot on again , old man ..ok, so you have 6 years on me.. lol

I don't get the allure of coming to a site just to stir things up... but, it does take all kinds ot make the world go 'round

Glashub

Thanks Stew. Hope you're ready for the heat blast they're predicting for next week.

BEAR-AvHistory

This just gets stranger & stranger - 2 BMW threads generating 204 posts & 4461 views on an Acura fan site. There has to be something beside BMW to talk about in Acura land.

Did they ever get the supercharger addon going?

cp3117

Hey there Bear-Av, Its sure nice to see a person of reasoning back here again.

I would have to agree that I dont understand why owners of the 4G cant appreciate their car for what it is. Its an great vehicle and has many good qualities but why do many here always need to justify their purchase by comparing it to vehicles that it was never designed to compete against in the first place. I know its human nature to do things like that to make yourself feel better but you rarely see this on the MDX or RL, etc forums.

You missed it last year when someone here was justifying their purchase comparing their 4G to a Porsche Panamara.

If the 4G is comparable to the 535 then so are many other premium mainstream models like the Buick lacrosse, etc etc, which IMHO I dont believe they are but to each their own. Acura themselves designed the RL specifically to compete with the 535, Audi 3.0T etc. The TL's direct competition has always been mainly the the 3 series, C-class, A4 etc etc. It seems that ever since the 4G was introduced the value proposition as fallen off against those models, so now we must compare it to higher end models that 4G was never really designed to compete against in order to justify the value again.

PS. I did see your thread over in the 3G section and congrats on your 335is purchase as im sure your going to love that ride. The grandson probably cant wait for BMW orientation day at the track.

daikeler

There are so many variables. What options are on the 535i? Would it have the sport package? I would take a 535i with sport package any day if someone else was footing the bill. The interior is upgraded from before and the navigation is now awesome.

I love my TL and everything about it, but I would always prefer to drive a BMW. I never buy a vehicle for the status, either.

With that said, I am content and have some peace of mind regarding reliability with the TL. Wish I had the SH-AWD, but I'm happy. I'm also happy that I saved at least $20,000 with the TL than buying a 535i with my preferred options.

Monte TLS,MAX

I agree, makes for interesting reading reading though!