saturno_v

The we have two members TechnoCat and YetiTL, previous owners of TL SH-AWD, that went to totally different brand (Audi and Infiniti) not BMW

Only acura_TL2010, as far as I know, decided to switch to a 535.....which begs the question "Why did he not go with the 535 in the first place??"

potmilkz

The way i see it....

TL = appeals to most younger crowd.

5 Series = appeals to most older crowd.

not saying that it appeals to ALL just most.

saturno_v

There are features that the TL has and the 5 series doesn't......frankly for me Torque Vectoring is more important than a wood insert or head up display....

potmilkz

i think the xdrive has torque vectoring. someone correct me if im wrong.

saturno_v

Nope....just checked on the bmwusa site...no sport differential on the 535 xDrive, non even as package.....I did quickly browse through the options...incredible how they nickel and dime you for everything...one of the reasons I will never own a German car in the foreseable future.


All the 5 series has more than the TL is the laudry list of accessories if you hit the checklist heavy...that is pretty much about it.....I do like the turbogharger though...

Even the Direct Injection does not any g value to the table because fuel consumption is pretty much equivalent to the TL. The straight 6 is unmatched in smooth revving but the VTEC V6 is darn close...

potmilkz

oh hahahha it was the x6 that had torque vectoring. woops.

i can say the m5 has it but its a completely different car then what we are talking about haha but just to throw it out there.

pickler

hmm i know i said earlier i prefer the 535 but i just learned something, one from this thread and other from googling.

one being the lack of torque vectoring on the x-drive system mention above...but here is a list of other problems i found about the 5-series:
the 535i 8 speed auto zf tranny is NOT a dual clutch. The 6 speed on the TL however is. this is sad considering the 535xi costs nearly $20,000 more. my $45k 135i has a 7 speed DCT. WTF? so a $60k 535i has a crappier transmission. Another disappointing item about the 535 i discovered was that it now has electric steering. WTF? BMW with electric steering!? one more turn off i found: the 535xi (all-wheel drive version) has a softer less sporty suspension tuning! If you thought things couldn't get any worst, the famous n55 engine now is no longer twin turbo. It has a single twin "scrol" turbo. whatever BMW says and no matter how good their turbo, it will now suffer more lag than before. But ya thats what i learned about the 5 series today, so can s1 change my vote to TL please?

saturno_v

To be fair, I do not think this is detrimental to the 535i...simply BMW decided to do not equip the xDrive version of the 5er series with a manual or Dual Clutch transmission but with a more comfort oriented classic auto....and I do not understand wheat you mean by "The 6 speed TL however is"...."is" what?? The TL does not have a Dual Clutch transmission option...you either choose the 6 speed auto (traditional automatic with torque converter) or 6 speed manual (classic manual with 3 pedals)

BEAR-AvHistory

Just a few points.

The TL has upgraded to a 6 speed auto & the BMW has an 8 speed auto - both are the same type full automatic transmissions except for the number of gears.

I have only driven the TL 4G with electric steering & it felt very good compared to my 3G TL, can't comment on the 535 because I have never driven one. I prefer a smaller 2 door for my daily driver.

A twin scroll turbo is two small turbos in the same housing. According to your signature you have a 2011 135i which means you are driving a N55 engine. The N55 motor introduced in 2011 only has the twin scroll turbo. The 2010 motor, N54, is a twin turbo. (two small turbos in separate housings) According to the test reports N55 has less lag & better fuel economy then the N54 but a little less top end power.

Regardless if power is an issue a JP1 $380 ECU piggy back system can add a dyno tested minimum of 33HP to the rear wheels (310hp/357lbft) stock or up to 340hp/398lbft with a 4" downpipe. The down pipe system is a bit pricey @ $600 but 60+ rear wheel HP for under a $1000 is not to shabby.

The same unit can be added to the 535 if anyone was interested in modifying the car but I would expect that the typical buyer the car is positioned for would would not do this & the bucks up ones would get the M5

compewterbleu

Why not? Sat in a 5 drove it...don't want one. Period. Drove the Audi, didn't want one. Different strokes for different folks, has anyone ever heard of that one? Really c'mon. There's allegiance to the badge and then theirs never-never land.

Stew4HD

You nailed it... IMO, that comment by PsychDoc was made by him to justify and apologize for him getting a 5'r. He won't admit it but methinks that's behind that comment and others he's made since deciding to get a 5'r.

As you said, different strokes.. drive what you want, be happy and enjoy it.. most of us worked (and still do) a lot of hours to pay the bills..

Mr Marco

Agreed, you can geek-out on turbo-talk, compare features, shop by the size of your wallet, or just purchase for the ego. I've owned Alfa, Fiat, Ford, GM, Hyundai, Mazda, Porsche, Saab, VW, Volvo, and 5-6 Honda products (if you include my HRC-216 mower). The Honda vehicles have been my favorite. The bottom line is you either like one or the other.

PsychDoc

OK, OK, I admit it. I just have a massive case of cognitive dissonance and buyers remorse.

I couldn't take it any more. You broke me down.

Glashub

Welcome back Doc. lol

PS - Einstein when asked how he could believe in a God so malicious; replied along the lines of; "I don't believe God is malicious. I do believe He is very, very sophisticated."

jjsC5

As some of you know, the TL is actually my wifes car, but I drive it every week some. When the lease on my Lexus is up next year a 535 is on my short list. The only way a TL makes my short list for my daily driver is if they give the SH more power. I like the car a lot, but it feels a little down in power compared to my Lexus.

And please don't tell me the SH is as fast as a 535 - it's not unless you are comparing a manual transmission which launches hard due to the AWD and the ability to use the clutch to keep the rpms up. In a side by side race once rolling it will not stay with a 535, and an automatic won't ever stay with it.

Stew4HD

PsychDoc

LOL.

Hey, it's all in good fun. Cars are a blast! What the hell would we have to argue about if not our cars? Would we collectively get down to neadrethal "my dick's bigger than your dick" stuff? That's no fun (especially when you keep losing). This is way better.

C'mon now, we can all agree that our cars crap all over Chryslers.

PsychDoc

The great thing about Einstein is that he was so chock full of awesome quotes, that you can cherry pick the one(s) you like.

Glashub

lol True that. But he was a seeker. Basically my experience is that beliefs create reality. Choose to believe there's a God and the wonderful mind will begin to accumulate evidence to support that belief. My take? When an atheist associate died from a heart attack....his wife said his last words were, "God help me." Wudda thought based on his atheism that his last words would be, “Marx help me."

Stew4HD

...except the Challenger.. I still have a soft spot for that car.. having had a '72 for many years ('78 - '96). That SRT-8 is a bad MOFO

Mr Marco

^I couldn't help but have the same feeling myself^. However, I got a $47,000 "build your own" (with $1,000 gas guzzler tax) quote that will keep me looking at used Pontiac Trans-Am's for a weekend toy.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Here's C&D's test data for the AWD 535 (with auto - the only trans available for 2011 on AWD):

Zero to 60 mph: 5.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 26.6 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 100 mph

And here's their data for the 535 6-speed MT:

Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.3 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 26.3 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.3 sec @ 100 mph

And here's their data for the TL AWD 6MT:

Zero to 60 mph: 5.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.5 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 26.5 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.8 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.8 sec @ 101 mph

Finally, here's C&D's results for the 2012 TL AWD (6AT):

Zero to 60 mph: 6.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.4 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.7 sec @ 98 mph

So yes, according to Car and Driver at least, the 6MT TL is quicker from zero all the way to somwhere north of 100 mph than the 535 6MT (in other words, comparing cars with similar transmissions). The TL (6MT) is also faster from zero than the AWD 535 (comparing AWD cars) and is faster than both BMWs in a street start of 5-60.

You are correct that the BMW is slightly faster than the 2012 TL AWD Auto - by .4 to .6 seconds in the 1/4 mile. But in the street start, the Acura AT is very close to both 535s (within .1 to .2 seconds).

When I cross-shopped these cars, I was looking exclusively for a 6MT. In that category, as you state, the TL is clearly the better performer as between it and the 535, regardless of transmission or AWD/RWD configuration. (Braking and handling results favor the TL as well). The 2012 TL AWD 6AT is off a tick from the 535s, but is not in a different league, as some here have suggested.

saturno_v

Well said....ahh these pesky facts...and the 535 Auto advantage over the TL SH-AWD auto is fully justified, IMHO, by the fact that the Bimmer has 2 more gears (8 vs. 6) to play with.

I'm actually disappointed at the 535i acceleration results considering the turbocharged engine develops gobs of low end torque which should help a lot....

By the way...I did test drive the RWD 535i manual just for the heck of it and the TL has a smoother, shorter, more precise shifter....something that even BMW & Driv...hmmm Car & Driver did recognize.....

PsychDoc

An open letter to the CEO of BMW:

Dear BMW,
It's time you stopped catering to the negative nattering nabobs of negativism and return to your real roots as a car for, by and about men. We will hereto for only tolerate manual four speed transmissions, rigid axles and unboosted manual steering. What? Someone has the temerity to complain that the steering is too heavy to easily negotiate city parking maneuvers? Screw those girly-men. They need to bulk up, pump up and work out more. Our cars will not have any cup holders as we believe that they detract from the core BMW values of straight ahead, balls-to-the-wall driving as if your hair was on fire and you had to get to the nearest fire hydrant. Suspension you ask? What suspension? We don't need no stinking suspension. We are real men and we don't need to be coddled or protected from the road. We embrace every pothole and other road irregularity. Air conditioning? Ha. Like you gotta be kidding, right? Our cars come equipped with perfectly serviceable fans....the manual kind, not battery powered. You said you wanted weight reduction, well you're gonna get weight reduction. Ever see a soapbox derby? Those things are lard-assed trucks compared to what we'll give you. Audi touts its light weight aluminum, right? Well, we'll see that and raise them 1000x with our new, revolutionary 'saran wrap' construction. So we're dropping a 1000 hp quadruple turbocharged 1.2 liter engine (watch out Veyron) into our new 'saran wrap' monoque body weighing in at a mere 137 lbs. We see a 0-60 sprint in about 1.3" with the quarter coming up in about 7.2" @195 mph. And if you think these numbers are impressive, just wait until our M-sport comes out.
Thank you for your kind attention,
Manly-man-driving-BMWphile

acura_TL2010

Hey psycdoc are you really 62 years of age, i think you are between 26-45 years. Reading your multiple posts on bummerfest and acurazine i feel you are younger than your age that is displayed on this forum

PsychDoc

Hehe. Actually about to turn 63. But I'm really, really immature. Thanks for the compliment though!

Glashub

He lives in NY. NYC makes everyone feel really alive.

BEAR-AvHistory

The numbers are interesting but a loss by about .5 second at a terminal velocity of 100-101mph is about 70 feet or near 5 car lengths behind. That's more of a butt kicking then slightly.

BTW when the 5 speed TL was getting pummeled by everything in its class the consensus here was its a second gear start thing & its not a race car so who cares. The TL gets a lit bit better with a manual & all of a sudden 0-60mph & 1/4 mile time is a real big deal, why is that?

saturno_v

I agree that the TL SH-AWD Auto numbers are not as impressive as the 6 speed manual.....I own the manual though so I do not really care...

However considering the lack of a turbocharger and 2 less gears, the automatic TL SH-AWD hold its own very well.

Finally, my preference of the TL over the 535i is not only because the manual TL Sh-AWD is faster.......if the choice would be between the standard FWD TL and the regular RWD 528i at the same price similarly equipped, I would still get the TL...

jjsC5

I'm not interested in an AWD 535. The only reason for my comparing it to the SH-AWD TL is that A) I don't want a front drive car and B) the SH is the only real sport version of the TL whereas there is a great sport package available on all BMW's.

I read more magazines than you can imagine. The tests you are showing above are the slowest I've ever seen for a 535 and the fastest I've seen for a TL. I'd bet money that in a side by side race from a roll the BMW walks away from the TL. I've spend a lot of time reading tests, and I've driven quite a few BMW's - that's my considered opinion. I admit I've never driven a manual TL, but I'm not interested in a manual for my daily driver and I think the 8 speed in the BMW gives that car a much bigger advantage when comparing automatics.

As to handling, there are objective and subject aspects of handling. I'm not interested in a pissing match over which is better, but BMW's have a fantastic reputation for having exceptionally well sorted suspension for all around street use.

Understand I'm not dissing the TL at all. I really like the car a lot. I'm just saying it has room for improvement in areas that are important to me. The question is simply how much more are the incremental improvements worth? But I don't have to answer that for this thread because he said "if they are the same price".

saturno_v

Care to quote which magazines tested the 535 being faster than the reported numbers?? The 535i tested by Insideline does actually worse and the one tested by Motortrend match exactly the C&D numbers.

I read from your signature that you own a 2012 TL SH-AWD....if you like the Bimmer better why did you get the Acura in the first place?? I would like to understand...

jjsC5

I've got thousands of magazines boxed up - not interested in going through them tonight. But I've seen quite a few tests of 535's. Admittedly I'm going back to the last generation along with a couple of the current generation, but the new generation should actually be faster with the 8 spd. I've also seen recent tests of the 740 that are faster. The 740 has slightly more hp, but also weighs more.

Read what I have already posted. It's my wife's car, not mine and the 535 is over $15K more with similar equipment. Like my post above said - this thread was about price being equal. Had the price been equal my wife would be in a 535 right now. BTW, the 535 KILLS the SH-AWD in gas mileage. It's rated at 20/30 vs the TL-SH at 18/26 if I remember correctly (I know the 26 is right).

Here are a couple I dug up...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/specs.html

740 with only 15 more hp...

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

winstrolvtec

There are good reasons to buy a 5 series over a TL, as it is a fine car but the TL SH appears to be as fast as the new 5 series and the 6MT faster, so that is not really one of them. This is not the last generation 5 series, many argue the turbo change has hurt it marginally, as does the nearly 200 lbs of added weight across the board. Let's not forget the TL is lighter even with AWD, than a 535 RWD and FWIW, the TL SH should handle better on comparably equipped tires if it's outlapping the 3 series.

I will not argue which one has more pep around town with more low end torque and, in the case of the auto, an 8 speed tansmission, for a 2 and even 3 gear advantage. The engine is almost immediately at it's peak torque as soon as you start off and continues that for most of the typical everday driving purposes, so in those circumstances it is faster and certainly feels that way as well.

The TL's engine character does not help this sensation, it does feel a bit sluggish, and in fact, for how most people actually drive on an everday basis, it is. Peak torque is not made until 5k rpms, something we rarely ever reach on a normal commute but it's in the situations when you get on it and/or run through all the gears, keeping the revs in the peak powerband that you realize how fast it actually can be.

The GS 350's engine and characater is closer to the TL's but even that (which generates about the same amount of torque) makes it available sooner. The TL also happens to be heavier and have AWD over your GS 350 (which I assume is RWD), so it should not be of any surprise why it drives and feels as it does.

The TL 6MT has good times because it's pretty fast, it's doesn't have the typical 6MT and AWD launch/traction advantages. For one thing, it only allows a 4k rpm launch (electronically limited), where most AWD, 6MT cars benefit from full rpm clutch dumps and besides that, it's not a permanent or fixed AWD distribution, it's not 50/50 or 40/60 at launch. It's 90/10 when the power is first delivered to the wheels and then it adjusts, quickly too but there is some spinning of the front wheels still. The car typically traps 100-102 mph and with high 13's to low 14's, which is normal for that trap range on any drive wheels so there isn't really any additional launch or tractive advantage over almost any other car.

Likewise, in the case of the auto TL SH's, they don't successfully brake torque, while the 5 series does, and generously I might add. Up to this point, either auto SH has been putting up the same type of trap speeds that the 5 series has, 1-2 mph less typically but that's without any brake torque advantages. That is a good indicator that the cars are pretty close in race type performance. ET's vary for many more different reasons but the trap is a much more consistent measure.

Even at that, the 535 has not broken into the 13's with any transmission on any drivetrain, while the TL has. The 5AT SH has hit 14.3-14.4 (official) and we have only seen one 6AT test from C&D, and strangely it's slower than those times, while the 535 on either drivetrain or transmission is consistently running low 14's as well (14.1-14.3). The 6MT TL has consistently broken into 13's and trapped higher. It has also had a stronger street start (rolling) from 5-60 in 5.8, while a 535i 6MT ran it in 6.4 seconds, both according to C&D.

So as a whole, they are very close in this regard and it doesn't matter much what 535 it is. Again, as far as regular, everyday driving conditions and what gets around easier with less effort, the 535 has the advantage but based on reviews and tests, if I had to split hairs in deciding what is actually faster (which I don't really like to do when it's relatively close), it would be the TL 6MT, than any version 535, and then the SH AT's.

And the TL has it's share of those underachieving reviews and tests but so does the 5 series, just check out Inside Line's test review. I'll post it just for the sake of discussion even though I don't really put too much into their outcome.

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...full-test.html

saturno_v

If you (and your wife) think the 535i was so much better 15K is not that much to pony up more....you could get a one year old used car, lease, etc....according to your signature you have quite the machinery in your garage...I suppose you can afford the price difference..if you think the 535i is worth more you should have bought it...personally I would have paid the extra dough for the 535i if I thought it was a better car...

No it doesn't kill anything....tested in two occasion by C&D the 535 has an observed fuel consumption of 15 mpg and 22 mpg while the TL recorded 21 mpg...I woudl not call that a kill by any stretch of imagination.

Yep, that test proves exactly that the TL SH-AWD manual is slightly faster...

You are right about that...the 535i (both old and new one) doesn't seem to get the same glowing review that the 3 Series does....even on BMW & Driver....I would say that the new 5 series almost get the same amount of negative remarks that the TL does.....Insideline wrote about the new 535i: "What Needs Work: Less performance than previous generation, questionable styling."

mightl

Not a fair question. Everyone already have a perception on the branding of bimmer, if you knew it actually cost more but sell at a lower price, there will be bias and this is human nature since bimmer is afterall a nice automobile.

If say, both car have given a new same badge with equivalent options other than the fact one is RWD (not xi) and the other is SH-AWD, I'll pick TL.

pickler

ok so in short, the 6 speed manual TL beats the 6 speed BMW, but the auto TL can't keep up with the auto 535. if this is all about performance which this discussion seems to prove, then the 6 speed manual TL is the better car.

however i do question the 0-60 time of 6.2 seconds for the 6AT TL. that seems way too slow to me considering the 5AT could do 0-60 below 6s. This is a 5AT TL timed with dynolicious at 5.5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGuLxGBmOTc

saturno_v

jjsC5

You said:

In my modest opinion, that is a contradiction right there...if you do not want a manual as your daily driver you are already giving up pleasure of driving for practicality....once you drive a slushbox, front drive or rear drive doesn't really matter...you killed driving pleasure anyway....I would never ever consider an automatic, daily driving or not....I will capitulate to dual clutches if one day cars with 3 pedals will not longer be available....but maybe I'm different, I was born and raised in Europe, home of the twisties and driving nirvana..ehehe

saturno_v

A bimmer driver defending the a 4th gen TL?? I'm impressed!!!

pickler

hey correct me if im wrong but it seems that camry's 6at has same (very close) gear ratios as the TL. just multiply axle ratio by gear ratio. so tl's 6at is mainly designed for fuel economy! however the extra gear allows much faster highway passing and eliminates 4th gear of death (just moves it up to 5th gear).

Carmy V6 SE 6AT Gear Ratios:

1st 3.30
2nd 1.90
3rd 1.42
4th 1.00
5th 0.71
6th 0.61
axle 3.82

TL Sh-AWD 6AT:
1st 3.36
2nd 2.10
3rd 1.49
4th 1.07
5th 0.74
6th 0.56
Axle 3.72

This 6at, light weight and v6 engine gives the camry:
1/4 Mile ET: 14.380
1/4 Mile MPH: 98.990


http://www.dragtimes.com/Toyota-Camr...lip-20819.html

so i think we should leave straight line performance out of this discussion LOL

saturno_v

Another aspect not many bother to ask to themselves is why there is that much price gap between a 5 Series and a TL....let's see, a base RWD 528i Sedan is 45K while a base FWD TL non Tech is 9.5K cheaper (35.6K)....a sizeable amount even if not huge....reasons for the differecne could mainly be:

1) The TL is based on the popular and mass produced Accord platform (and engines) so development costs are much more spread across a higher number of units sold.

2) The TL is produced in the United States, less labor costs e less transportation costs..the TL is almost a domestic car...now I don't know if the new 5 Series sold in the USA are produced in Toluca Mexico or other low cost countries.

3) Higher level of personalization for the BMW means more production/development/logistic costs which eventually are paid even by customers not opting for these options..


So a price difference does not necessarily means that a car is "better" than another as some may think....