Edmunds Comparison: Infiniti G37 Journey vs. Acura TL SH-AWD
12-04-2008, 01:17 PM
#161
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SSFTSX, I think you are right about the money part, but I'm sure Honda has the tech to produce such a car. I'd say they are being conservative and not willing to risk anything, especially in this economy.
Bear, according to the article, all those cars in the comparison test were fitted with the best wheel/tire combo. They were also equipped to the highest level if I remember correctly.
From what I know, I don't think the 2009 G37 was available during that event. Why Honda didn't wait? Well, it's simply because they want people to know there's a 6MT TL coming along. Remember how people were so disappointed when they didn't see a 6MT model? 335i got its facelift in 2009, I doubt it will change much for 2010. It still uses the same engine, which is more than enough to lead the competition in terms of straight line speed anyways. S4, like SSFTSX said, it's supposed to be in another league.
Here is what Jeff said about the event,
" Every vehicle in the competitive set was equipped with a 6-speed manual transmission, sport suspension package, and the most aggressive tires offered by each manufacturer. In order to cope with the hours of track abuse that these cars would be facing during our event, Acura's engineers equipped each vehicle with upgraded brake pads, all using the identical compound."
Also, as always, the 5AT version has always been much slower than the 6MT TL, both straight line speed and handling. So, I won't be surprised if the 5AT TL is slower than its competition.
Bear, according to the article, all those cars in the comparison test were fitted with the best wheel/tire combo. They were also equipped to the highest level if I remember correctly.
From what I know, I don't think the 2009 G37 was available during that event. Why Honda didn't wait? Well, it's simply because they want people to know there's a 6MT TL coming along. Remember how people were so disappointed when they didn't see a 6MT model? 335i got its facelift in 2009, I doubt it will change much for 2010. It still uses the same engine, which is more than enough to lead the competition in terms of straight line speed anyways. S4, like SSFTSX said, it's supposed to be in another league.
Here is what Jeff said about the event,
" Every vehicle in the competitive set was equipped with a 6-speed manual transmission, sport suspension package, and the most aggressive tires offered by each manufacturer. In order to cope with the hours of track abuse that these cars would be facing during our event, Acura's engineers equipped each vehicle with upgraded brake pads, all using the identical compound."
Also, as always, the 5AT version has always been much slower than the 6MT TL, both straight line speed and handling. So, I won't be surprised if the 5AT TL is slower than its competition.
12-04-2008, 03:40 PM
#162
AZ Community Team
What was included in NSX where it is called luxury sports sedan. It is great design for sports car. It is anything but luxury.
have u seen this history. 0-60 in 4.8 sec from AWD in 1984.
http://www.supercars.net/cars/103.html
http://www.eurotuner.com/news/eurp_0...cts/index.html
S4 is directly positioned against BMW 335. RS4 is with M3. Acura simply dont have money and technolgy to provide anything beyond TL-SH-AWD. They shouldnt play in big league without going all the way.
have u seen this history. 0-60 in 4.8 sec from AWD in 1984.
http://www.supercars.net/cars/103.html
http://www.eurotuner.com/news/eurp_0...cts/index.html
S4 is directly positioned against BMW 335. RS4 is with M3. Acura simply dont have money and technolgy to provide anything beyond TL-SH-AWD. They shouldnt play in big league without going all the way.
Audi did great things in rally in the 80's especially with Michelle Mouton winning the championship. They innovated alot of technology with their AWD differentials. They also transformed themselves from a FWD company to a more AWD centric company.
However this simply pales compared to Honda's F1 engine program during that period. To build and dominate the sport like Honda did from the 1986 to 1991 winning 5 driver and 6 constructor world titles. Their V6 Turbo, V10 and V12 engines were technological marvels in their day.
Audi today is doing an amazing effort in LeMans, but one also must consider the lack of competition they've had also. LeMans has become a buyers market in terms of prestige.
Honda and Toyota both are trying in F1, but so far their efforts have been very limited so it's much higher level of technology in engines and chassis but neither is making much progress yet.
Also Acura was manufacturing production aluminum chassis (NSX) way before Audi ever considered it.
Overall Honda/Acura have gained alot of respect in the auto inductry for their innovation ane engineering. Some things have been very successful, some not so. None the less they always try to stay on leading edge of progress. Both Bob Lutz (GM) and Ghoen (Renault/Nissan) have made very complementory comments about their technology.
12-04-2008, 04:40 PM
#163
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The also made a very specific decision to leave the '09 SH-AWD 5AT home so it could not be compared against the competition or even the 6MT.
It would have been nice to know the spread between the 5AT & 6MT to see in some cases if its worth waiting another year for.
I believe this is a big omission since they only expect, what 5%?, of the cars to have a manual trans when it available. The vast majority of the TL that will be stacked up against the competition will be the 5AT so thats where the only meaningful comparison should be made
the other really big thing the left out, unless I missed it was the methodology used for listing the final times.
You had a Honda factory test driver & a number of press drivers.
The Honda driver had to have hundreds if not thousands of hours on that track in the TL during development. For everyone else it was a new experience.
Did they just take the fastest time posted by each car regardless of who made the run? Don't you think a mega dose of experience & better tires could be worth 2 seconds on a very short track with an awful lot of turns?
12-04-2008, 08:15 PM
#164
Honda Fanboy
Two quick things:
Do you really believe that the Honda engineers did not know exactly how the SH-AWD would perform in the magazine tests before they ever released the car for sale? If they didn't, they should all be fired for not doing their jobs.
You misunderstood me. You said that Honda arranged this comparison in order to take the eyes off of the "lack-luster" reviews the TL had been receiving. What I said was that the SH-AWD version of the TL had not had much, if any reviews done yet. The car wasn't even for sale yet. There were no reviews to to be taking attention from in the first place. Do you know what I'm trying to say or was I the one that misunderstood you when you said what you did?
The Black Helicopter guys might come back & say that Honda was very careful never to give precise timings for the car just unlike BMW that puts it in the specs for the car.
When has Honda or Acura published 0-60 and/or 1/4 times in their spec sheets for them to be doing it for the TL? It's a practice that Honda has never adopted. That's all there is to say about it.
As for whats new for 2010 from the others, if the 2009 cars will be exactly the same as the 2010's why did Honda test only the competitors 2008 models?
Because there were no 2009 models available at the time of testing. Look at the date of the article and the consider the amount of time before the article was published and when the comparison was done and then look to see when the 2009 models were released. It's just not possible.
Don't you think they could, at a minimum, step up to the same size & compound tires as the SH-AWD ran instead of the smaller ones they all had?
They tested stock cars with the sport versions and whatever tires and wheels they came with. Acura offers the 19 inch rims as part of an option package, not an accessory. It's not Acura's fault the other manufacturers are not offering an equivalent setup. Maybe Acura should have tested all the cars with a trasnplanted J37 motor also to make it more fair.
Do you really believe that the Honda engineers did not know exactly how the SH-AWD would perform in the magazine tests before they ever released the car for sale? If they didn't, they should all be fired for not doing their jobs.
You misunderstood me. You said that Honda arranged this comparison in order to take the eyes off of the "lack-luster" reviews the TL had been receiving. What I said was that the SH-AWD version of the TL had not had much, if any reviews done yet. The car wasn't even for sale yet. There were no reviews to to be taking attention from in the first place. Do you know what I'm trying to say or was I the one that misunderstood you when you said what you did?
The Black Helicopter guys might come back & say that Honda was very careful never to give precise timings for the car just unlike BMW that puts it in the specs for the car.
When has Honda or Acura published 0-60 and/or 1/4 times in their spec sheets for them to be doing it for the TL? It's a practice that Honda has never adopted. That's all there is to say about it.
As for whats new for 2010 from the others, if the 2009 cars will be exactly the same as the 2010's why did Honda test only the competitors 2008 models?
Because there were no 2009 models available at the time of testing. Look at the date of the article and the consider the amount of time before the article was published and when the comparison was done and then look to see when the 2009 models were released. It's just not possible.
Don't you think they could, at a minimum, step up to the same size & compound tires as the SH-AWD ran instead of the smaller ones they all had?
They tested stock cars with the sport versions and whatever tires and wheels they came with. Acura offers the 19 inch rims as part of an option package, not an accessory. It's not Acura's fault the other manufacturers are not offering an equivalent setup. Maybe Acura should have tested all the cars with a trasnplanted J37 motor also to make it more fair.
12-04-2008, 08:29 PM
#165
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Ah, I see what you mean now, it's true that in 2010, those other cars might come with different options. Time will tell.
Like I said, I think the 5AT will be much slower on the track than the 6MT TL, perhaps even slower than the competition. This is based on the 3G TL. For instance, a 3G TL 5AT is good for 14.8@96mph in the 1/4 mile while the 6MT can do it in 14.3@99mph.
It's true that Honda expects 5% buyers to get the 6MT model. I'd imagine those models are mainly for enthusiasts, who actually care about going fast. For the other 95%, most of them are people looking for a entry luxury car with a lot of space and features, and a AWD system. I'm not saying ALL those 95% people don't care about speed, but the percentage is rather low. But anyways, the 5AT is still good for 0.93g, which is a bit less than 0.96g of the 6MT model. I think 0.93g is pretty good (and of course skidpad is only one measure of handling).
Actually, many numbers are posted. Here are the numbers by the Honda driver:
TL - 1:38.5
S4 - 1:40.7
335i - 1:39.9
335xi - 1:39.6
G35 - 1:40.9
C350 - 1:42.3
And here are numbers from Jeff@ TOV:
TL - 1:43.2
335i - 1:44.5
335xi - 1:46.2
G35 - 1:44.9
S4 - 1:44.8
You are right, a normal driver will get slower lap times than the test driver from Honda, as shown above.
Like I said, I think the 5AT will be much slower on the track than the 6MT TL, perhaps even slower than the competition. This is based on the 3G TL. For instance, a 3G TL 5AT is good for 14.8@96mph in the 1/4 mile while the 6MT can do it in 14.3@99mph.
It's true that Honda expects 5% buyers to get the 6MT model. I'd imagine those models are mainly for enthusiasts, who actually care about going fast. For the other 95%, most of them are people looking for a entry luxury car with a lot of space and features, and a AWD system. I'm not saying ALL those 95% people don't care about speed, but the percentage is rather low. But anyways, the 5AT is still good for 0.93g, which is a bit less than 0.96g of the 6MT model. I think 0.93g is pretty good (and of course skidpad is only one measure of handling).
Actually, many numbers are posted. Here are the numbers by the Honda driver:
TL - 1:38.5
S4 - 1:40.7
335i - 1:39.9
335xi - 1:39.6
G35 - 1:40.9
C350 - 1:42.3
And here are numbers from Jeff@ TOV:
TL - 1:43.2
335i - 1:44.5
335xi - 1:46.2
G35 - 1:44.9
S4 - 1:44.8
You are right, a normal driver will get slower lap times than the test driver from Honda, as shown above.
12-04-2008, 08:32 PM
#166
Honda Fanboy
The point is they ran a 2010 prototype against 2008 production cars & we have no way knowing what wheel tire combos will be available in 2010 for the competitors cars.
The also made a very specific decision to leave the '09 SH-AWD 5AT home so it could not be compared against the competition or even the 6MT.
It would have been nice to know the spread between the 5AT & 6MT to see in some cases if its worth waiting another year for.
I believe this is a big omission since they only expect, what 5%?, of the cars to have a manual trans when it available. The vast majority of the TL that will be stacked up against the competition will be the 5AT so thats where the only meaningful comparison should be made
the other really big thing the left out, unless I missed it was the methodology used for listing the final times.
You had a Honda factory test driver & a number of press drivers.
The Honda driver had to have hundreds if not thousands of hours on that track in the TL during development. For everyone else it was a new experience.
Did they just take the fastest time posted by each car regardless of who made the run? Don't you think a mega dose of experience & better tires could be worth 2 seconds on a very short track with an awful lot of turns?
The also made a very specific decision to leave the '09 SH-AWD 5AT home so it could not be compared against the competition or even the 6MT.
It would have been nice to know the spread between the 5AT & 6MT to see in some cases if its worth waiting another year for.
I believe this is a big omission since they only expect, what 5%?, of the cars to have a manual trans when it available. The vast majority of the TL that will be stacked up against the competition will be the 5AT so thats where the only meaningful comparison should be made
the other really big thing the left out, unless I missed it was the methodology used for listing the final times.
You had a Honda factory test driver & a number of press drivers.
The Honda driver had to have hundreds if not thousands of hours on that track in the TL during development. For everyone else it was a new experience.
Did they just take the fastest time posted by each car regardless of who made the run? Don't you think a mega dose of experience & better tires could be worth 2 seconds on a very short track with an awful lot of turns?
BMW, Audi, and Infiniti use fairly aggressive summer tires with their sport packages.
This test wasn't about the Auto TL. This test was solely to introduce the 6sp TL. Why would they want to test an automatic when the whole point and purpose of the comparison was to introduce the TL? What magazine have you seen that compares an automatic version and a manual version of each car they test? Have you EVER seen it done? Doubt it.
Just because Acura expects manuals to only account for 5% of sales, why would they not want it tested? Should Audi omit the R8 from testing since it will only count for 1% of Audi sales? This test was focused on the 6sp TL.
Your missing the fact that Edmunds wasn't the only journalists there. Motor Trend, Road and Track, Car and Driver, and the Temple of VTEC were all there, with their own drivers. ALL the drivers had the same results. Each magazine published their own times from their own drivers. They didn't use the time of the Honda engineers because they didn't drive the cars.
You are right though, the Honda engineers must have had hundreds of hours of time behind the wheel while the press had 0 time behind the wheel up until this time. Additionally, the press has already had plenty of experience with the other cars in the comparison. So in reality, even with the unfamiliarity and lack of experience with the TL, ALL press drivers were able to come out with the same results, the TL in 1st place.
Seriously, I have no idea why something like this has to be so heated and debated upon. No one is claiming that it is the final result. It was only posted for reference.
Last edited by VTEC Racer; 12-04-2008 at 08:35 PM.
12-04-2008, 11:54 PM
#167
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Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
12-05-2008, 01:26 AM
#168
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I think Acura is just confident in its 6MT TL, that's all. I mean, if they fake it, it would make the brand look bad. But I definitely see where you are coming from, as Infiniti/Nissan has done it before with the G37 coupe.
Yea, they know the 5AT is not going to be enough, may be it's still fast on a track, but not enough to beat the others, or leave them in the dust.
Yea, of course, test drivers are of course much better than car journalists. That's why I'd go with results from professional drivers (ie, the test of the 3G TL-S vs G35 vs IS350).
Yea, they know the 5AT is not going to be enough, may be it's still fast on a track, but not enough to beat the others, or leave them in the dust.
Yea, of course, test drivers are of course much better than car journalists. That's why I'd go with results from professional drivers (ie, the test of the 3G TL-S vs G35 vs IS350).
12-05-2008, 01:43 AM
#169
Honda Fanboy
Because it was a publicity stunt to make the new Acura design look good. It worked & they got the press they wanted, SH-AWD by 2 seconds.
Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
Of course they knew what the outcome would be. What kind of company would they be if they didn't know how their products measure up against their competition? Are you even hearing what you are saying? The 335 is one of the best performing entry-level cars on the market right now. Acura took this opportunity to show the press what their product is capable of.
Again, Acura took this opportunity to INTRODUCE the 6sp manual. How many people bitched and groaned when the 4g debuted and there was no mention of a manual? This was Acura's answer to that. Acura knows that people were going to leave the brand to get a G35/7 or 335i manual. However, with the introduction and confirmation of a manual TL, Acura's goal was to keep those people waiting instead of having them jump ship. Why the HECK would they want to introduce the 5AT when it was already introduced a MONTH before this article? How would the title read? "Introducing the 5AT TL. Again."
The 2010 isn't about forgetting the 2009. It is basically saying we have this right now AND we have this coming in 2010. Take your pick.
I read iforyou's comment in regards to the tires and he explained it perfectly. ALL cars were fitted with the most aggressive setup available from the factory. If you think that in 2010 any of these cars will offer bigger or better tires, think again. All cars just received makeovers. I can't ever recall Infiniti, Audi or BMW changing their rims or tires without there being a MMC or FMC.
Like you yourself already said, the Honda engineers clearly had the best results with the car in their hand. What your not realizing is that unlike with the BMW, Audi, and Infiniti, NON of the press had experience with the manual TL. With that said, every single press driver still came in first place with the TL. Do you think that if the press drivers had an equal amount of experience in the TL as they had with the other three cars, the gap between the TL and the other cars may have been even bigger? Your missing the point that aside from the Honda engineers, everyone else also came out with the TL ahead.
Bear, you are blowing this extremely out of proportion. I have already told you that my whole intention in posting that one article was to show what we MAY expect from the TL when compared to the competition. Just relax and take it for what it's worth. It doesn't look good when you are doing whatever you can to try to take any and all credibility from such a lousy article.
12-05-2008, 04:07 AM
#170
Because it was a publicity stunt to make the new Acura design look good. It worked & they got the press they wanted, SH-AWD by 2 seconds.
Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
WOW.....very well said Bear.
I have said this for sometime and you explained it very well. I dont buy this "Oh we need to introduce the 6MT" bit at all. They could have achieved this with a press release, a few pictures and some laps of a track. Especially if this 6MT market is roughly 5%.
There was plenty of Auto 335i's and A4's etc available to do a comparison with the 5AT TL but we obviously understand why that never happened and i dont really blame Honda for not showing that test (for marketing reasons).
This is no different than if BMW compared its 335i a couple years before it was introduced against the 2G TL.....you can imagine what would have been said about that.
12-05-2008, 04:27 AM
#171
I read iforyou's comment in regards to the tires and he explained it perfectly. ALL cars were fitted with the most aggressive setup available from the factory. If you think that in 2010 any of these cars will offer bigger or better tires, think again. All cars just received makeovers. I can't ever recall Infiniti, Audi or BMW changing their rims or tires without there being a MMC or FMC.
Like you yourself already said, the Honda engineers clearly had the best results with the car in their hand. What your not realizing is that unlike with the BMW, Audi, and Infiniti, NON of the press had experience with the manual TL. With that said, every single press driver still came in first place with the TL. Do you think that if the press drivers had an equal amount of experience in the TL as they had with the other three cars, the gap between the TL and the other cars may have been even bigger? Your missing the point that aside from the Honda engineers, everyone else also came out with the TL ahead.
Like you yourself already said, the Honda engineers clearly had the best results with the car in their hand. What your not realizing is that unlike with the BMW, Audi, and Infiniti, NON of the press had experience with the manual TL. With that said, every single press driver still came in first place with the TL. Do you think that if the press drivers had an equal amount of experience in the TL as they had with the other three cars, the gap between the TL and the other cars may have been even bigger? Your missing the point that aside from the Honda engineers, everyone else also came out with the TL ahead.
The TL came out ahead of older and in some cases models that are completely redesigned in 2010. Tires, horspower increases, improved drivetrains etc are all coming to these other models in 2010, some even in current 2009 models.
The 2009 Audi's have a 19" wheel pkg available in 2009 and the new S4 will be available in the spring. Although the S4 is out of the TL's league, i am curious if Honda will be anxious to test it against current model years?? (im going to say probably no)
The G37 is now available and the 335I will almost certainly have a power increase and upgraded wheels for 2010.
I guess we will have to see if Honda will be as anxious next fall to compare its 6MT against current models....I think we all know the answer to that....
12-05-2008, 07:55 AM
#172
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If they get invited to Car & Drivers Lightning Laps shootout at VIR in 2010 it will be interesting to see how they do.
I don't think they would want to run the 5AT in 2009.
It is run on Virginia International Raceway's "grand course" which is 4.2 miles with 25 turns.
What it interesting to note that although its over 3 times longer then the Honda development track both the BMW 335 & Infinity G-37 ran ithe 4.2 miles in only twice the time it took the Acura SH-AWD 6MT to run the 1.6 miles with the Honda driver onboard.
1.6 mile track
TL - 1:38.5 seconds Avg speed less the 60mph
4.2 mile track
BMW 335 - 3.10.5 seconds Avg speed 80.1mpg
G-37 - 3.17.5 seconds Avg speed 76.6mph
12-05-2008, 03:36 PM
#173
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Because it was a publicity stunt to make the new Acura design look good. It worked & they got the press they wanted, SH-AWD by 2 seconds.
Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
Anyway, I believe they put a ringer in against stock cars to get good press. They knew the outcome before the day even started. They also knew if they put the '09 car they were trying to sell for the next 12 months in against the same '08 versions of the other cars it would not have looked so good.
Every company tests & cuts apart the other guys cars, it a normal part of the development process. Every marketing department in history of the world knows the results before they arrange a test like this or they would not do it.
You do not arrange a test you are not going to win, never ever, which is why they did not run the 5AT.
This whole "introduce the 6MT" is just so much plausible denyability to put the best face on their 4G effort.
If you are going to introduce any car to the public why would you not introduce the brand new car you spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop & are about to release into a very difficult market.
In other words, "yeah we got this all new '09 ready to go, but forget about that & let me tell you about what we may be releasing in 2010.
Its a prototype so we don't know how close it will actually be to the production car but its pretty slick & you guys can get some column inches for your magazines"
As for what I was talking about with the tires read the "iforyou" post as he understands what I was saying.
If you look at the numbers he posted by Jeff they bunched up by half (non-Honda driver 1.3 seconds 1st/2nd spread) with the best magazine run slower the the worst Honda driver run. Says something about knowing the track & the quality of the rubber.
12-05-2008, 07:29 PM
#174
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Buddy, you still seem to be having a hard time understanding what the meaning of introduction is. The 2009 automatic TL was ALREADY introduced. LOL wow. This is ridiculous. Do you realize you are getting upset over something most enthusiasts only dream of? How often does a manufacturer tell you what they are going to release for their 2010 model a year before it is supposed to come out? Unless you are Nissan of course and you started talking about the 2009 GT-R back in 2005. Do you realize what your crying over? You sound ridiculous.
Of course they knew what the outcome would be. What kind of company would they be if they didn't know how their products measure up against their competition? Are you even hearing what you are saying? The 335 is one of the best performing entry-level cars on the market right now. Acura took this opportunity to show the press what their product is capable of.
Again, Acura took this opportunity to INTRODUCE the 6sp manual. How many people bitched and groaned when the 4g debuted and there was no mention of a manual? This was Acura's answer to that. Acura knows that people were going to leave the brand to get a G35/7 or 335i manual. However, with the introduction and confirmation of a manual TL, Acura's goal was to keep those people waiting instead of having them jump ship. Why the HECK would they want to introduce the 5AT when it was already introduced a MONTH before this article? How would the title read? "Introducing the 5AT TL. Again."
The 2010 isn't about forgetting the 2009. It is basically saying we have this right now AND we have this coming in 2010. Take your pick.
I read iforyou's comment in regards to the tires and he explained it perfectly. ALL cars were fitted with the most aggressive setup available from the factory. If you think that in 2010 any of these cars will offer bigger or better tires, think again. All cars just received makeovers. I can't ever recall Infiniti, Audi or BMW changing their rims or tires without there being a MMC or FMC.
Like you yourself already said, the Honda engineers clearly had the best results with the car in their hand. What your not realizing is that unlike with the BMW, Audi, and Infiniti, NON of the press had experience with the manual TL. With that said, every single press driver still came in first place with the TL. Do you think that if the press drivers had an equal amount of experience in the TL as they had with the other three cars, the gap between the TL and the other cars may have been even bigger? Your missing the point that aside from the Honda engineers, everyone else also came out with the TL ahead.
Bear, you are blowing this extremely out of proportion. I have already told you that my whole intention in posting that one article was to show what we MAY expect from the TL when compared to the competition. Just relax and take it for what it's worth. It doesn't look good when you are doing whatever you can to try to take any and all credibility from such a lousy article.
Of course they knew what the outcome would be. What kind of company would they be if they didn't know how their products measure up against their competition? Are you even hearing what you are saying? The 335 is one of the best performing entry-level cars on the market right now. Acura took this opportunity to show the press what their product is capable of.
Again, Acura took this opportunity to INTRODUCE the 6sp manual. How many people bitched and groaned when the 4g debuted and there was no mention of a manual? This was Acura's answer to that. Acura knows that people were going to leave the brand to get a G35/7 or 335i manual. However, with the introduction and confirmation of a manual TL, Acura's goal was to keep those people waiting instead of having them jump ship. Why the HECK would they want to introduce the 5AT when it was already introduced a MONTH before this article? How would the title read? "Introducing the 5AT TL. Again."
The 2010 isn't about forgetting the 2009. It is basically saying we have this right now AND we have this coming in 2010. Take your pick.
I read iforyou's comment in regards to the tires and he explained it perfectly. ALL cars were fitted with the most aggressive setup available from the factory. If you think that in 2010 any of these cars will offer bigger or better tires, think again. All cars just received makeovers. I can't ever recall Infiniti, Audi or BMW changing their rims or tires without there being a MMC or FMC.
Like you yourself already said, the Honda engineers clearly had the best results with the car in their hand. What your not realizing is that unlike with the BMW, Audi, and Infiniti, NON of the press had experience with the manual TL. With that said, every single press driver still came in first place with the TL. Do you think that if the press drivers had an equal amount of experience in the TL as they had with the other three cars, the gap between the TL and the other cars may have been even bigger? Your missing the point that aside from the Honda engineers, everyone else also came out with the TL ahead.
Bear, you are blowing this extremely out of proportion. I have already told you that my whole intention in posting that one article was to show what we MAY expect from the TL when compared to the competition. Just relax and take it for what it's worth. It doesn't look good when you are doing whatever you can to try to take any and all credibility from such a lousy article.
12-05-2008, 07:30 PM
#175
Yea, It's Me!
Acura targets their consumer audience well. With global economics the way they are now, I would be surprised if Acura builds a V8 RL.
While the big three worked so hard over the last few years to put the new Camaro, Challenger, and a series of SRTs on the road, they have been oblivious to what the future holds for fuel consumption. Honda finally realized that Hybrids aren’t the way to the future by designing a new diesel for the U.S. market Accord. The cost of replacing batteries is astronomical so used Civics and Accords aren’t moving either.
I have to tip my hat to Honda/Acura for not losing sight of the consumer.
12-05-2008, 07:33 PM
#176
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WOW.....very well said Bear.
I have said this for sometime and you explained it very well. I dont buy this "Oh we need to introduce the 6MT" bit at all. They could have achieved this with a press release, a few pictures and some laps of a track. Especially if this 6MT market is roughly 5%.
There was plenty of Auto 335i's and A4's etc available to do a comparison with the 5AT TL but we obviously understand why that never happened and i dont really blame Honda for not showing that test (for marketing reasons).
This is no different than if BMW compared its 335i a couple years before it was introduced against the 2G TL.....you can imagine what would have been said about that.
WOW.....very well said Bear.
I have said this for sometime and you explained it very well. I dont buy this "Oh we need to introduce the 6MT" bit at all. They could have achieved this with a press release, a few pictures and some laps of a track. Especially if this 6MT market is roughly 5%.
There was plenty of Auto 335i's and A4's etc available to do a comparison with the 5AT TL but we obviously understand why that never happened and i dont really blame Honda for not showing that test (for marketing reasons).
This is no different than if BMW compared its 335i a couple years before it was introduced against the 2G TL.....you can imagine what would have been said about that.
Again, you are right, I think the 5AT TL is not going to be that competitive. Automatic Hondas/Acuras have always been rather slow.
I think your 335i vs 2G TL is a little extreme lol, they are like 3 - 4 years apart, not 1!
12-05-2008, 07:37 PM
#177
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Actually that is the point he is making.
The TL came out ahead of older and in some cases models that are completely redesigned in 2010. Tires, horspower increases, improved drivetrains etc are all coming to these other models in 2010, some even in current 2009 models.
The 2009 Audi's have a 19" wheel pkg available in 2009 and the new S4 will be available in the spring. Although the S4 is out of the TL's league, i am curious if Honda will be anxious to test it against current model years?? (im going to say probably no)
The G37 is now available and the 335I will almost certainly have a power increase and upgraded wheels for 2010.
I guess we will have to see if Honda will be as anxious next fall to compare its 6MT against current models....I think we all know the answer to that....
The TL came out ahead of older and in some cases models that are completely redesigned in 2010. Tires, horspower increases, improved drivetrains etc are all coming to these other models in 2010, some even in current 2009 models.
The 2009 Audi's have a 19" wheel pkg available in 2009 and the new S4 will be available in the spring. Although the S4 is out of the TL's league, i am curious if Honda will be anxious to test it against current model years?? (im going to say probably no)
The G37 is now available and the 335I will almost certainly have a power increase and upgraded wheels for 2010.
I guess we will have to see if Honda will be as anxious next fall to compare its 6MT against current models....I think we all know the answer to that....
I'm actually not sure about whether the 335i will get a power increase. I mean it just received its facelift for 2009, and there's no power increase. I think it's possible, but the chance of it having a power bump in 2010 is slim. Who knows, may be BMW will, just to keep the 335i safe from the G.
12-05-2008, 07:37 PM
#178
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This test was on a development course. Its design of 1.6 miles & 13 turns makes it a very slow course which does not play to the strengths of the more powerful cars. The average speed of the Honda factory driver in the 4G was less then 60mph.
If they get invited to Car & Drivers Lightning Laps shootout at VIR in 2010 it will be interesting to see how they do.
I don't think they would want to run the 5AT in 2009.
It is run on Virginia International Raceway's "grand course" which is 4.2 miles with 25 turns.
What it interesting to note that although its over 3 times longer then the Honda development track both the BMW 335 & Infinity G-37 ran ithe 4.2 miles in only twice the time it took the Acura SH-AWD 6MT to run the 1.6 miles with the Honda driver onboard.
1.6 mile track
TL - 1:38.5 seconds Avg speed less the 60mph
4.2 mile track
BMW 335 - 3.10.5 seconds Avg speed 80.1mpg
G-37 - 3.17.5 seconds Avg speed 76.6mph
If they get invited to Car & Drivers Lightning Laps shootout at VIR in 2010 it will be interesting to see how they do.
I don't think they would want to run the 5AT in 2009.
It is run on Virginia International Raceway's "grand course" which is 4.2 miles with 25 turns.
What it interesting to note that although its over 3 times longer then the Honda development track both the BMW 335 & Infinity G-37 ran ithe 4.2 miles in only twice the time it took the Acura SH-AWD 6MT to run the 1.6 miles with the Honda driver onboard.
1.6 mile track
TL - 1:38.5 seconds Avg speed less the 60mph
4.2 mile track
BMW 335 - 3.10.5 seconds Avg speed 80.1mpg
G-37 - 3.17.5 seconds Avg speed 76.6mph
12-05-2008, 07:39 PM
#179
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I respectfully differ with the reference to Acura's funding and technical ability. Honda has established itself as the maker of practical cars that meet and often exceed the competition. Their manual transmissions are revered throughout the world's automotive press as some of the best ever designed. Honda milked the use of leaded gas far past the other manufacturers with their CVCC engines in the 70’s. While VTEC type technology is not new, Honda perfected it for the masses. The bulk of the consumers that purchase NEW Hondas/Acuras (Accords/TLs) aren't interested in IRL, F1, and ALMS. They are interested in safe, reliable cars that get them through life without maintenance issues and usually have lower insurance premiums. Comparing the big German sedans is not comparing apples to apples. The average German buyer knows much more about cars than the average American buyer. The big BMW 7 series and Mercedes AMGs aren't as common as you think with the average German. Their taxes are really high. Most of the big sedans on the Autobahn are the executive class who spends a lot more time in their cars. West Germany is about the size of Oregon, so the business man/women usually drive rather than jump on the "Delta" shuttle.
Acura targets their consumer audience well. With global economics the way they are now, I would be surprised if Acura builds a V8 RL.
While the big three worked so hard over the last few years to put the new Camaro, Challenger, and a series of SRTs on the road, they have been oblivious to what the future holds for fuel consumption. Honda finally realized that Hybrids aren’t the way to the future by designing a new diesel for the U.S. market Accord. The cost of replacing batteries is astronomical so used Civics and Accords aren’t moving either.
I have to tip my hat to Honda/Acura for not losing sight of the consumer.
Acura targets their consumer audience well. With global economics the way they are now, I would be surprised if Acura builds a V8 RL.
While the big three worked so hard over the last few years to put the new Camaro, Challenger, and a series of SRTs on the road, they have been oblivious to what the future holds for fuel consumption. Honda finally realized that Hybrids aren’t the way to the future by designing a new diesel for the U.S. market Accord. The cost of replacing batteries is astronomical so used Civics and Accords aren’t moving either.
I have to tip my hat to Honda/Acura for not losing sight of the consumer.
12-05-2008, 09:24 PM
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I have a question why do they compare the tl with entry level luxury cars like bmw 3 series, infinti g or audi a4. I mean all 3 are smaller than the tl. Tl should be compared with infiniti m, bmw 5 or lexus gs which are similar in sizes and power.
12-05-2008, 09:33 PM
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12-05-2008, 10:25 PM
#182
AZ Community Team
I respectfully differ with the reference to Acura's funding and technical ability. Honda has established itself as the maker of practical cars that meet and often exceed the competition. Their manual transmissions are revered throughout the world's automotive press as some of the best ever designed. Honda milked the use of leaded gas far past the other manufacturers with their CVCC engines in the 70’s. While VTEC type technology is not new, Honda perfected it for the masses. The bulk of the consumers that purchase NEW Hondas/Acuras (Accords/TLs) aren't interested in IRL, F1, and ALMS. They are interested in safe, reliable cars that get them through life without maintenance issues and usually have lower insurance premiums. Comparing the big German sedans is not comparing apples to apples. The average German buyer knows much more about cars than the average American buyer. The big BMW 7 series and Mercedes AMGs aren't as common as you think with the average German. Their taxes are really high. Most of the big sedans on the Autobahn are the executive class who spends a lot more time in their cars. West Germany is about the size of Oregon, so the business man/women usually drive rather than jump on the "Delta" shuttle.
Acura targets their consumer audience well. With global economics the way they are now, I would be surprised if Acura builds a V8 RL.
While the big three worked so hard over the last few years to put the new Camaro, Challenger, and a series of SRTs on the road, they have been oblivious to what the future holds for fuel consumption. Honda finally realized that Hybrids aren’t the way to the future by designing a new diesel for the U.S. market Accord. The cost of replacing batteries is astronomical so used Civics and Accords aren’t moving either.
I have to tip my hat to Honda/Acura for not losing sight of the consumer.
Acura targets their consumer audience well. With global economics the way they are now, I would be surprised if Acura builds a V8 RL.
While the big three worked so hard over the last few years to put the new Camaro, Challenger, and a series of SRTs on the road, they have been oblivious to what the future holds for fuel consumption. Honda finally realized that Hybrids aren’t the way to the future by designing a new diesel for the U.S. market Accord. The cost of replacing batteries is astronomical so used Civics and Accords aren’t moving either.
I have to tip my hat to Honda/Acura for not losing sight of the consumer.
Also agree, well written. Have to give GM credit though for the new Malibu which is selling and reviewing well.
12-05-2008, 11:28 PM
#184
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12-05-2008, 11:49 PM
#185
Honda Fanboy
iforyou, advice taken. Thanks.
As for the rest of the posts...
BMW and Infiniti just refreshed the 3 series and G. They won't see a power increase just a year into the refresh. The refresh is when most cars get their power increase. The Infiniti got it, the BMW didn't and probably won't at this point. The 2008 S4 compared to the 2009 S4 will most certainly be different cars. But it is ridiculous for people to criticize Acura for using the cars they did when those were the only cars available. 2009's were not available at the time of this comparison.
Size wise, the TL is more close to the mid-size luxury class. However, price wise, it is still entry level and that is what sells most cars. If anything, Acura displayed how good the TL is being able to handily out handle the competition even though they are a class below physical-size and weight wise. The results would have only been better for Acura if they compared the TL against a 5-series, M, E or GS on the track.
As for the rest of the posts...
BMW and Infiniti just refreshed the 3 series and G. They won't see a power increase just a year into the refresh. The refresh is when most cars get their power increase. The Infiniti got it, the BMW didn't and probably won't at this point. The 2008 S4 compared to the 2009 S4 will most certainly be different cars. But it is ridiculous for people to criticize Acura for using the cars they did when those were the only cars available. 2009's were not available at the time of this comparison.
Size wise, the TL is more close to the mid-size luxury class. However, price wise, it is still entry level and that is what sells most cars. If anything, Acura displayed how good the TL is being able to handily out handle the competition even though they are a class below physical-size and weight wise. The results would have only been better for Acura if they compared the TL against a 5-series, M, E or GS on the track.
12-06-2008, 01:52 AM
#186
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E is not in the same class. Maybe the E550 or E63 but that's all. TL handles well tho.
iforyou, advice taken. Thanks.
As for the rest of the posts...
BMW and Infiniti just refreshed the 3 series and G. They won't see a power increase just a year into the refresh. The refresh is when most cars get their power increase. The Infiniti got it, the BMW didn't and probably won't at this point. The 2008 S4 compared to the 2009 S4 will most certainly be different cars. But it is ridiculous for people to criticize Acura for using the cars they did when those were the only cars available. 2009's were not available at the time of this comparison.
Size wise, the TL is more close to the mid-size luxury class. However, price wise, it is still entry level and that is what sells most cars. If anything, Acura displayed how good the TL is being able to handily out handle the competition even though they are a class below physical-size and weight wise. The results would have only been better for Acura if they compared the TL against a 5-series, M, E or GS on the track.
As for the rest of the posts...
BMW and Infiniti just refreshed the 3 series and G. They won't see a power increase just a year into the refresh. The refresh is when most cars get their power increase. The Infiniti got it, the BMW didn't and probably won't at this point. The 2008 S4 compared to the 2009 S4 will most certainly be different cars. But it is ridiculous for people to criticize Acura for using the cars they did when those were the only cars available. 2009's were not available at the time of this comparison.
Size wise, the TL is more close to the mid-size luxury class. However, price wise, it is still entry level and that is what sells most cars. If anything, Acura displayed how good the TL is being able to handily out handle the competition even though they are a class below physical-size and weight wise. The results would have only been better for Acura if they compared the TL against a 5-series, M, E or GS on the track.
12-06-2008, 07:34 AM
#188
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The feature list is almost identical, dimensionally its within 2 inches of the TL, generally bigger inside/smaller outside, in all key measurements, has 2 less horsepower but runs a 0-60 in only 5.6 & the quarter mile in 14.2/100mph.
By one of the stated requirements to play in this league, 100mph minimum trap speed by C&D, it qualifies & the TL does not.
12-06-2008, 05:03 PM
#189
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Exactly, you can't just compare cars just based on size and power.
I mean like Bear just said, if you compare the SS to the cars you mentioned, not all of them can get 100mph trap speed. For example, the M35.
I mean like Bear just said, if you compare the SS to the cars you mentioned, not all of them can get 100mph trap speed. For example, the M35.
12-06-2008, 07:12 PM
#190
I think if they only had a press release and a few pics and some lap times, people won't be convinced at all. I mean right now, they invited journalists to do the test too, and some people are still saying how the test is rigged and stuff. I'd imagine if all they had was just a press release with some pics and lap times, the situation would even be worse.
Again, you are right, I think the 5AT TL is not going to be that competitive. Automatic Hondas/Acuras have always been rather slow.
I think your 335i vs 2G TL is a little extreme lol, they are like 3 - 4 years apart, not 1!
Again, you are right, I think the 5AT TL is not going to be that competitive. Automatic Hondas/Acuras have always been rather slow.
I think your 335i vs 2G TL is a little extreme lol, they are like 3 - 4 years apart, not 1!
Does anyone really think that when these Journalists went to this Honda event they where thinking "Gee, i wonder who is going to win this comparo thats being set up by Honda". They werent even allowed to bring their own test equipment or perform other tests.
They where all just excited about trying out a new TL 6MT as they have all been in the other cars.
It would be like Audi setting up an event with their A4 2.0T against the other luxury brands then inviting out the Journalists for a 0-60 test then saying "see how superior our car is and by the way we are not letting you guys do anymore tests, thanks for coming out".
My comparison with the 335i and 2G TL was just that, to give you a rough idea but isnt really that far off. If BMW released a pre-production version of the 335i a year and half earlier similar to the release date and test of the 6MT TL it would have been roughly the summer of 2006 and the last year for the 2G i believe was 2003......so roughly 3 years and Honda was comparing to cars 2 years older than its pre production 2010 TL........Anyway this is really getting way off topic for this thread. Just look around at other forums and blogs and the general consensus is the same about this Honda backed comparo being very bias.
12-06-2008, 07:17 PM
#191
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Well the E550 and the E63 have the adaptive suspension and the muscle for sure and of course the E63 has many special bits on it but that car is very expensive. The E350 is the fleet car and I wouldn't call that one a performer more of a cruiser so that's why I kind of was half hearted about it.
I'd take an E550 over a TL (mainly for engine reasons) but they are catering to different markets.
I'd take an E550 over a TL (mainly for engine reasons) but they are catering to different markets.
12-06-2008, 07:26 PM
#192
Maybe it's a definition of terms. The preview wasn't biased. It was controlled. The journalists were free offer their own opinions and draw their own conclusions. They offered up the best from the competition that was available at the time and what more could they do? I'm sure that BMW or Infiniti wouldn't give Acura a pre-production prototype of the 2010 car right?
12-07-2008, 01:33 AM
#193
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That would have been a meaningful apples to apples test, not the apples to "what if" or "definitely maybe" thing they did pull.
12-07-2008, 02:56 AM
#194
People here whine and complain when Honda or Acura hides their future plans. Now we complain when they show their future plans. Are you suggesting that they should have kept the 6-MT a secret and not shown anything?
If you were in charge, (and you wanted to show the MT) what would you have done?
Last edited by Colin; 12-07-2008 at 02:58 AM.
12-07-2008, 03:01 AM
#195
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Not at all, if anything it would make Honda look more credible than what this test did and build excitement for upcoming comparo's next year as they wouldnt have anything to compare it to at this Honda event.
Does anyone really think that when these Journalists went to this Honda event they where thinking "Gee, i wonder who is going to win this comparo thats being set up by Honda". They werent even allowed to bring their own test equipment or perform other tests.
They where all just excited about trying out a new TL 6MT as they have all been in the other cars.
It would be like Audi setting up an event with their A4 2.0T against the other luxury brands then inviting out the Journalists for a 0-60 test then saying "see how superior our car is and by the way we are not letting you guys do anymore tests, thanks for coming out".
My comparison with the 335i and 2G TL was just that, to give you a rough idea but isnt really that far off. If BMW released a pre-production version of the 335i a year and half earlier similar to the release date and test of the 6MT TL it would have been roughly the summer of 2006 and the last year for the 2G i believe was 2003......so roughly 3 years and Honda was comparing to cars 2 years older than its pre production 2010 TL........Anyway this is really getting way off topic for this thread. Just look around at other forums and blogs and the general consensus is the same about this Honda backed comparo being very bias.
Does anyone really think that when these Journalists went to this Honda event they where thinking "Gee, i wonder who is going to win this comparo thats being set up by Honda". They werent even allowed to bring their own test equipment or perform other tests.
They where all just excited about trying out a new TL 6MT as they have all been in the other cars.
It would be like Audi setting up an event with their A4 2.0T against the other luxury brands then inviting out the Journalists for a 0-60 test then saying "see how superior our car is and by the way we are not letting you guys do anymore tests, thanks for coming out".
My comparison with the 335i and 2G TL was just that, to give you a rough idea but isnt really that far off. If BMW released a pre-production version of the 335i a year and half earlier similar to the release date and test of the 6MT TL it would have been roughly the summer of 2006 and the last year for the 2G i believe was 2003......so roughly 3 years and Honda was comparing to cars 2 years older than its pre production 2010 TL........Anyway this is really getting way off topic for this thread. Just look around at other forums and blogs and the general consensus is the same about this Honda backed comparo being very bias.
Anyways, they simply wanted to promote this product. They wanted to keep the enthusiasts happy (whether successful or not is another matter). I just think if they only posted lap times, people would have more reasons to say the test was unfair. At least, by actually inviting journalists to do the testing, they can minimize the "unfairness." It's more like, "here, take the TL out for a spin, we also have other cars for you to test and compare. Go out there and have fun."
It's unfortunate that they had to compare to 2008 models. But that event happened in August, and I don't think 2009 models were out yet. That's why they compared to 2008 models. At least we know 2009 335i didn't change much. G37 gained power and speed. S4 is totally changed, but that car is in another class. I doubt that the 335i will get any power increase for 2010, since it just gOt its facelift in 2009.
One might ask, "well, why didn't they wait till 2009 models come out before they do this test?" If they did, people would be asking, "hey, where's the 6MT model?" Then one might say, "they could tell us that the 6MT model is coming in 2010." But then how do you convince people that it's going to be a fast car?
Audi could have set up an event like this for acceleration testing, but is Audi confident that the 2.0T can outrun a 335i or G35/37? I mean, it would be meaningless just to be able to beat a 328i or IS250 right? I'd also imagine faking an acceleration test is much easier, especially for turbo cars, I mean, all you need to do is just turn up the boost. It's not like journalists will know. For handling, if you get the suspension tuning right, then I don't see why you would want to change it for the production model. There's no reliability issue I can think of, unlike turning up the turbo boost. I mean, why would they go like, "hmm, ok, the journalists took the TL out, they like the handling, they like the ride, seems like we got the suspension system and SH-AWD tuned correctly on the prototype, let's go mess it up for the production model."
Lol, sorry, I don't understand about your paragraph about comparing a 2007 335i to a 2003 TL-S....and 6MT TL?? lol..I'm lost!
12-07-2008, 03:09 AM
#196
Honda Fanboy
What? WHAT? The whole point of the track day (it was not a test) was to show the upcoming car! If that was your stated goal what would be the point of showing the automatic?
People here whine and complain when Honda or Acura hides their future plans. Now we complain when they show their future plans. Are you suggesting that they should have kept the 6-MT a secret and not shown anything?
If you were in charge, (and you wanted to show the MT) what would you have done?
People here whine and complain when Honda or Acura hides their future plans. Now we complain when they show their future plans. Are you suggesting that they should have kept the 6-MT a secret and not shown anything?
If you were in charge, (and you wanted to show the MT) what would you have done?
Amen!
12-07-2008, 07:04 AM
#197
AZ Community Team
I did look, it looks like just a handful of people are claiming this was biased, most (myself included) look at it as just a simple demonstration of next year's 6MT potential against what was currently available with a few journalist looking on. Nothing more, nothing less, you test with what's available at the time.
12-07-2008, 07:13 AM
#198
AZ Community Team
Maybe it's a definition of terms. The preview wasn't biased. It was controlled. The journalists were free offer their own opinions and draw their own conclusions. They offered up the best from the competition that was available at the time and what more could they do? I'm sure that BMW or Infiniti wouldn't give Acura a pre-production prototype of the 2010 car right?
12-07-2008, 09:10 AM
#200
What? WHAT? The whole point of the track day (it was not a test) was to show the upcoming car! If that was your stated goal what would be the point of showing the automatic?
People here whine and complain when Honda or Acura hides their future plans. Now we complain when they show their future plans. Are you suggesting that they should have kept the 6-MT a secret and not shown anything?
If you were in charge, (and you wanted to show the MT) what would you have done?
People here whine and complain when Honda or Acura hides their future plans. Now we complain when they show their future plans. Are you suggesting that they should have kept the 6-MT a secret and not shown anything?
If you were in charge, (and you wanted to show the MT) what would you have done?
Exactly what I was thinking, look how much everyone hated that we knew almost nothing about the 4G until it was just about to arrive at the dealership, now we get a sneak peek and they get criticized by backseat drivers.
