saturno_v

...as I would like to see proof of the contrary....and nobody said the "majority"...I always said "some" which are more than "very few"....

I can present you several TL owners on this forum that have seriously considered the 528-535...and we have one former 5 series owner new user that come did across in TL land....as I saw few E60 5 series on my Acura dealer used car lot..if you are so inclined go on a BMW forum and ask to 528 and 535 owner if they ever considered the TL...

Consider also that the Bimmer can count on a good number of badge shoppers, people that are only interested in a badge and perceived prestige and do not even know what the driven wheels are....I do not consider these exactly automotive informed folks....

g37guy01

I have to say, prestige is not perceived, perceived prestige is the same as real prestige. Prestige is given, it can never be taken.

And okay I'll grant you out of the thousands and thousands of people who have bought BMWs over the years, you know the 6 people that actually cross-shopped the two. Statisically insignificant. I'm waiting for some proof that these two cars are cross-shopped as a matter of course.

It's my opinion "badge hounds" exist at every level. Can you honestly say people who buy an Armitage are not "badge hounds"? Or people who upgrade from an Accord to a TL are not "badge hounds"?

BEAR-AvHistory

This always goes into the same circular argument with saturno V making all kinds of claims about people cross shopping this & cross shopping that & I have a friend who is doing very well that bought this & so on.

Bottom line is people do cross shop but regardless of what they cross shop at the end of the day only half as many still buy a TL. The other 30,000 sales are now being won by some other car company - maybe Kia, Hyundai or a 5er

012TL-GLM

saturno_v

Exactly!!!...............


Yes please let's not get there again......

I did not start this...it was started from someone that categorically stated "very few cross shop...." so do not blame me...his data on the subject is not better or more accurate than mine, yours or anybody else....
Neither side can bring any hard statistics or a poll...so it is a moot point....all personal opinions and isolated pieces of circumstantial evidence...

winstrolvtec

^I don't know what the reality is but I do agree, it's not good enough to suggest that there needs to be substantial proof when there is none of the contrary. You (Saturno) shopped one, I did, there are a few others here who are still active members, there were definately some who got the 5 after the TL because of the fundamental luxury brand distinctions and size/sport similarities (etc), which may no longer be active here.

I know of 2 specifically one with a name Pete something and the other was well over a year ago moved to a 550i when the new 5 gen came out. I think they also considered the upgraded TL versions at the same time, whether it was SH from FWD or 2012 from previous years. I'm sure there are more that I can't recall. Didn't Pyschdoc also get a 5 from an earlier 4G TL and cross shopped the 2012 SH as well?

Hamma Tyme who posted the original quote that all of this is in response to, could qualify as a cross shopper because he considered a 4G but got a 5 because of the styling and is active here despite owning a 5 series because of potential future cross shopping of the 5G.

No offense to anyone but it's one thing not to like the parallels being drawn or to argue the semantics of what constitutes cross shopping or not but it's another to ignore the obvious enough evidence that you don't have to go very far to even get. If one wants to chalk that up to the a normal variance in cross shopping anything together, that's fine by me but I really don't get the amount of protesting going on around this suggestion and so what if it is highly cross shopped with a 5 or not?

Why do some feel a need to police this when there is no good info to support either side of the debate? On the other hand, you have to expect that there will be some of us who will suggest that others should not be so quick to make assumptions or suggestions based on nothing either. Bottom-line is they are cross shopped, how much or how often, etc, we do not know.

JM2010 SH-AWD

As proof, how about the fact that when I log onto the Acurazine TL forum, BMW 5-Series ads come up (along with Audi and Lincoln and Infiniti). Evidently those manufacturers think there is cross-shopping among these cars. I doubt BMW would pay for these ads if they didn't think that those researching TLs might also be considering, as I was, a 5-series.

g37guy01

Okay, how 'bout I see BMW ads on almost every car enthusiast website? I take that more that BMW wants to do targeted advertising to car websites, rather than any specific meaning that they are cross-shopped.

cp3117

BINGO!!!!

This was debated to death in several other threads and anyone who isnt being bias with the smallest amount of knowledge/common sense or experience in the industry knows the answer to this.

jspagna1

What happened to the Maxima comparison? With me it's not all about the prestige or brand recognition. Ya when shopping for a new car this last time, I did want to step up to a luxury car. My wife and I looked at the following cars and in this order.

Maxima SV
Lexus ES350
BMW 5 Series
MB C300 Sport 4Matic
Aura TL SH-AWD Tech - (really was not considering till we drove it)

With me it's the most bang for the buck and the reliability factor (long range ownership).
We really wanted to like the Maxima and it is the best bang for the buck IMO but we really did not like the way it drove. I think the CVT had a lot to do with it. Last car we drove was the TL just on a hunch and we ended up liking it and bought it.

esco115

I agree, for some individuals it does take time to get used to the CVT and cruising wise I don't see why it takes time as I was sold instantly as it was smooth... If performance wise it takes awhile to get it to where u know what to do and how to do it to get the most out of it.

EazyRider562

The TL is way superior of a car than the Maxima anyway shape or form. i can't even believe this convo has gone this long.

Come on guys think again what we're comparing:

A NISSAN Maxima, or a ACURA TL. You're seriously comparing apples to orange, TL is in a league of its own. Enuf said!!!

saturno_v

You are the expert/knowledgeable/experienced here.....

EazyRider562

It sounds like he is actually, he knows!

saturno_v

I do not agree at all......the Maxima has always been a terrific sport sedan for the money, the current generation look is beautiful....original and edgy it stand out compared to other sedans but not in a too much "in you face" way like the TL.

What killed the Maxima are mainly two things:


1) The idiotic choice of the CVT as the sole transmission, an absolute no-no for a sedan that want to be considered even remotely sporty....it kill the pleasure of driving and it drain a lot of power in acceleration passed certain speed....if you look the acceleration numbers past 60-70 are pathetic.

2) Its FWD only architecture is at the end of the line in terms of handling and power delivery on the ground.....basically Nissan has to keep the engine output under 300 HP where values past that threshold is becoming the norm for a 6 Cylinder sport sedan.

In terms of chassis refinement and suspension setup the Maxima is up there with the TL.......granted Nissan does not offer the latest and greatest gadget on the car because it has the Infiniti turf to defend and differentiate.

Up to the 5th Generation (the best Maxima in my opinion) it was a killer sport sedan for the money , extremely fast (not only on a straight line) superb fit and finish and very well equipped.....but at that time its power output was in line with the best in its class and it could handle it just fine.
Other than maybe some extra gadgetry, to be honest the TL of that time was not much better across the board.....

The 6th generation put a lot of weight without increasing significantly the power output and the fit and finish took a significant nosedive (especially the interiors).

The current platform is better in every way compared to the 6th (fit and finish is significantly improved) but the CVT and the FWD prevent it to run with the best in the segment.

I frankly don't know what Nissan is going to do with the Maxima...if they want to keep cranking up the HP the solution should be going back to the RWD layout as the first Max (but what about Infiniti??) or taking the AWD route like the TL (more likely)....killing the CVT would help a lot too.
It is also possible that the Maxima will be killed altogether in the near future, afterall the Altima is the true competitor for the Accord and the Camry or Nissan will keep it FWD without increasing the power output significantly but that means the end of the Maxima as a viable sport sedan....

saturno_v

Absolutely....he is the resident expert in automotive market segmentation....

g37guy01

I agree, the poster knows his subject matter.

g37guy01

Maxima is not dead, in February Nissan sold more Maximas then Acura sold TLs. It seems TL is dead.

Many people don't care to worry about doing 120+ this sedan addresses the need for a sporty, comfortable, luxurious, value packed cruiser.

What FWD sedan has more than 300hp engine. TL?

The FWD comment is true about Acura also. I'm guessing by the best in the segment you are trying to say FWD limits the potential, and you are *not* suggesting if it's not a TL it's not worth a darn.

NIssan, like Honda, has to be careful on how it structures it's lineups. The Maxima was always meant to be a comfortable family cruiser with a sporty character. You want a Nissan performance car the z or GTR is for you. Want to step up to more luxurious surroundings, go Infiniti.

saturno_v

As a credible top tier sport sedan in its class is done. It has nothing to do with sales success. When I said "killed" I meant the car original character.

That transmission is anything but sporty...the Maxima has evolved in the opposite direction of sporty

None at the moment and for a reason....when Acura wanted to break the 300 HP barrier it went AWD...

The TL SH-AWD is not a FWD......the FWD TL does a decent job with its 280 HP but it is at the limit for that architecture...
The old Maxima did very well at 255 HP......the FWD limit seems to be a bit over that....

The Maxima has always been branded as the 4 door sport car, especially the manual version...in my opinion it lost that edginess especially because of the CVT...

g37guy01

The Maxima never pretended to be more than a FWD sporty sedan no matter what Nissan called it.

Maxima is fine for a lot of people, every car has its' weakness and people would disagree with you that the Maxima is not sporty.


How many manuals are sold now a days vs automatics? The Maxima with the CVT is a better value than the TL in either version for those who want a sporty car with decent appointments and who don't care about driving with their foot on the floor.

You can make the argument the TL manual is a far superior ellps than the maxima, but as you see in this thread, people are cross-shopping these two vehicles. Wow! Not only is the TL competition for the 5 series but a FWD CVT Maxima as well.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its never about sales except when in the beginning the 4G was outselling the G35/37 then we saw a lot of sales charts posted. Its also was never about the lack of 5AT acceleration/speed (so its not a sports car, its a luxury car) except when the to be released 6MT was going to clean everybody's clock.

Actually its about whatever anyone wants to talk about & with Honda bailing out on its 70,000 units per-year upmarket TL strategy over low sales its good to remember in carland its always about sales.

BEAR-AvHistory

Forgot to ask...but since we have yet another comparo have saturno V or winstrolvtec as the two most prolific TL supporters with 305BHP 6MT AWD TL’s elected to take me up on my offer to spot them $75 for a few dynos runs & since they seem to write like they have track experience & know about rollout etc. take a day to run the 1/4.

They could combine & average their results to take a lot of the speculation out of the question what will the TL actually do driven by a fan.

I already have dyno runs & will get some 1/4 mile info once the local tracks open & be happy to share.

saturno_v

The Maxima was the best FWD sport sedan out there (up to the 5th generation) on par with the TL of the time.

Read some numbers of the era about acceleration and cornering abilities compared to the competition, including some RWD offering of the time....the recently mentioned Taurus SHO (with AWD and summer performance tires) can pull barely 0.2G more than my 2002 Max with all season rubber...with the years the Max lost a bit of sporty edge.

Absolutely, I love a lot of the Maxima aspects (hello, did you read my previous post??) but the CVT transmission took away a lot of sportiness in my opinion (and the suspension softened a bit too)......thereare people that find "sporty" an SUV so opinions are different. The fact that the public like it and buy it has nothing to do with how much more or less sporty it is compared to the competition or the past iteration of the car.

First of all I and other people supporting the argument never said that the TL is a main competitor of the 5 Series but an also competitor, a second tier competitor if you like...big difference.....go and read the endless back and forth posts on the topic that has been beaten like a dead horse but someone still does not get it....yet...there is always hope....and please do not mention again your absurd comparison "yes there are people that want to buy a Bentlley but cross shop a Kia Optima"

The Maxima is definitely a main competitor of the FWD TL....did I ever question this or there are any doubts on that??? It is just a bit less sporty in my book...


hmmmm....ok...again, what sales success of the Maxima has to do with the fact that, in my opinion, it lost its edginess as sport sedan....and what this has to do with the lack of sales for the TL....many magazines agree that the 5 Series sedan is less sporty than the previous generation but the car still sell like hotcakes.....Do I sense a "bash the TL at every corner" rant here??

winstrolvtec

It's a good thing it's not carland, where it is also about profits and profits per unit as much as it is sales because what missing in the sales argument is that some makes push such agressive leases for volume and don't really make money in order not to loose.

I'm not sure what dragging sales into the discussion all the time has anything to do with the specifics or what it is supposed to imply anyway. For example and also in contrast, the 3 series is largely successful because of the 328's affordable BMW stature, while the 335is and M3 sell next to nothing by comparison.

And it's great to see a small group of a few people deemed so knowledgeable with such a lack of susbtance provided when it comes to a topic relative to the TL, especially with some not having owned a 4G and others not even driven one extensively.

FWIW, the intial sales comparisons were not a topic strictly about sales, they were a topic of styling and peoples' opinion attempted to be validated by sales. Old habits die hard I guess. And if I recall you were one of the naysayers who suggested the 4G SH 5AT was no more than a 15 second car.

saturno_v

I do not think my TL is a track tool and frankly I do not care about how fast I can run the quarter of mile strip or hit 60...I just read the mags numbers like anybody else......I just can tell you that the car is literally glued to the road and that is a very good thing for me...

g37guy01

This poster is pitting a FWD Maxima against SHAWD, that was my point. I personally wouldn't cross-shop these two cars, but that's me.

Also while I didn't quote it, FWD Sport also comes with torque steer. And the particular generation you referred to 10 years ago, everything I read about it, had no torque steer to a lot of torque steer. People raved about that car, but in the end it was a FWD sporty sedan.

winstrolvtec

But let me ask you, was the argument about the foolishness of what the car can do driven by a fan, or it being a pissing contest, or is it a matter of presenting the data that is available and in the right way, for whatever car is in discussion?

Honestly, with the amount of knowledge and certainty the TL haters have on the subject, it really would serve no purpose IMO because you seem to already know so well what the car is capable of not doing.

It's not really about what the car is ultimately capable of for you, it's a matter of what you choose or don't choose to accept IMO. In reverse, I don't make less of any info relative to the 3 series or 335is and what it can or can't do. Why you can't accept the info just as equally is beyond me or give it the benefit of the doubt, worst case.

Just the same, I wouldn't hold what you run against your car, or suggest that it's all the car is capable of, or on the other hand, that it was a fluke or exaggerated when there is collective data available. Do you see the difference in how it is approached?

I don't know what's up with that but I didn't think that it is even possible to hold so much distain for an object like a car or maybe it's just insecurity about your purchase instead or about having to invent ways to justify it against something else. I really don't know, you should look into that or ask yourself these question but I think I speak for all TL owners in saying that we're flattered.

saturno_v

I agree I would not cross-shop them either.....but maybe the OP decided that it does not need the AWD that much

I did own that car for almost 8 years so I think I can talk about it in detail...very little torque steer, not annoying at all.
People have very good reason to rave about that car it was a screaming deal for the money, not only in terms of performance but equipment and gadgets too....I would not be surprised if Nissan lost money on that generation Maxima.....it was the model of the Nissan comeback after its sales slump at the end of the 90's...they did throw everything they got on that car....

saturno_v

Exactly....for some reason when it comes to the TL the mags got the measurement wrong......why our friend does not take any issue on the sub 5 sec. 0-60 times of the 335i for example???

I don't know if the 335 is capable of going under 5 second in the hands of an average driver...the only thing I know that for fun I run an acceleration test with my wife STI against her co-worker 335 sedan and I significantly left him behind.....and the WRX STI is 5 sec+ car according to the mags.....interestingly, C&D tested the less powerful WRX at 4,7......

BEAR-AvHistory

Hondas profits have declined since 2007 vs. 2010 with 2010 being about 50% of 2007's

As far as I know 2011 is not yet posted but 1/2 qtr. were up over 2010 but 3 qtr. was down.

However Honda's Chief Financial Officer said: 'To Put It Bluntly, We're In A Really Tough Spot' on 10/31/11.

BMW is up about 10% 2007 vs. 2011. 2011 looks like +10% but no 4 qtr numbers are out yet.

I don’t remember if I said 15+ but if you looked it up I will be OK with a 5AT being a 15 second car till someone here posts some time slips & vids. I also said the car would fail in the market place & a 50% loss in units sold has to qualify as a major fail.

As far as the little dyno/track challenge it got the response I expected, both of you lawyered up not willing to put your car/skill where you keyboard is. The end of the day, its where the rubber meets the road that is reality not where the finger hits the key or turns the magazine page.

saturno_v

Sorry but that does not make any sense and frankly a bit immature.....first of all we live thousands of miles away and second I do not really care.....you are the one that have issues with the magazine's measurements not us......

BEAR-AvHistory

Nobody expected you to come to NC, there must be at least one dyno & track where you live.

Nah, just not a fan of cherry picking the best times available. When I said 15 seconds, if I did, this is what the magazines came up with. Hey 2/10ths on a guess is not to shabby. Funny these tests never come up in the debates

Here is what R&T said The most powerful Acura engine ever, the 3.7 pulls hard and evenly, lower-pitched off idle and swelling to a cleaner, more urgent sound near the 6700-rpm redline. It accelerates the TL to reasonably quick times, but at 6.3 seconds to 60 and 14.8 sec. at 96.7 mph through the quarter mile, it's considerably off the pace

Car & Driver Speed in the quarter-mile is an excellent indicator of a car’s actual power to weight. By today’s standards, anything sub-100 mph doesn’t make the fast-car cut. This TL checks in at 97 mph—decent, no better. Elapsed time is testimony to traction as much as to engine vigor. The TL grips like Krylon, as you would expect of all-wheel drive. So the time slip shows an ET of 14.8 seconds, with a 0-to-60 along the way of six seconds flat.

Motor Trend Shortly after the $43,995 TL landed in L.A., we took it to the test track, where it zipped from 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds and through the quarter mile in 14.8 at 96.9 mph.

BTW take out the roll out & you have a solid 15.1 seconds in the quarter

esco115

Damn there is alot of discussion going on now... saturno_v the Maxima is not a main competitor for the TL. People compare them because its V6 and FWD and its considered a luxury sport sedan when fully equipped... As the G37 is RWD and well its another whole convo.

Once again ppl state the the CVT robs more power then a conventional tranny where is the proof in this???

Also saturno_v not all Maxima models have been considered 4door sport sedan... from top of my head I can only think of 2... The 89-94 MY and the 09-12 MY...

g37guy01

Excluding stop light races, which put innocent lives at risk, to determine who has the smallest iq not the fastest car, I use zeroto60times.com in such cases. 335 is faster than the WRX, TL, Gx. Gx is faster than the TL and WRX.

However as you mentioned 60 to 150 is a whole different ball game.

As a side note we can all quote our favorite sources to bolster our arguments.

BEAR-AvHistory

I have no idea how quick a 335i is. The magazines post anything from high 4’s to low 5’s.

All I can point to in Average Joe hands the last 335i on the Drag Times list, page 12 car #228, is the first one to turn less then 100mph (99.8mph) but still manages a 13.89 ET. I also have no idea how quick my car is since it has not been to the track. Its stock 335is 7 DCT clones on youtube are doing a best of 13.1 & 109mph. I have about another 50+ whp over stock “is” & 95/100whp over the stock “I” so I am expecting to at least do as well.

The best modified DD run by my tune supplier Terry at Burger MotorSports, BMW-135, posted 0-60 in 3.0 (v-Box) while doing 11.12/125 in the quarter at the track two weeks ago. The car also ran consistently at 153mph in a 40mph rolling start airport 1/2 mile run last weekend so the car has a lot of potential that will most likely remain untapped in my case. There are a lot of really good vids of the airport races if anyone is interested. No TL's were there. The BMW vs. the E63's are pretty good

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15191

BTW the car was driven 400+ miles round trip to the airport & got 30mpg on the way home.

012TL-GLM

did the OP get a new car yet?

Why do all these arguments revolve around speed? If that's all people cared about when they bought a car we'd all be driving V8+ muscle. There's obviously more to the formula.

Some reasons I bought my TL (just this past November) over the competition

more comfortable interior
better tech
better AWD
better handling
IMO best bang for the buck

If the car had been a dog leaving a stoplight I may have looked elsewhere, but it didn't need to snap my neck for me to like it.

If you want to know why TL sales have sucked, the answer is simple - aesthetics.

BEAR-AvHistory

Which one is the real you? The one who does not care - or - the one who beats up on 335’s & out corners M5’s in the rain?

saturno_v

I did not cherry pick anything...how many times I have to say that I consider the TL automatic a bit slow, including the new 6 speed...I drive the manual...I was never interested in the automatic TL....

I beg to differ.....the Maxima is perfectly comparable to the FWD TL.....they may differ in few optional gadgets but gadgets does not make a car....

Pretty much all of them.......if you want I can scan for you the brochure of the 2002 model (I still have it somewhere) and you can see for yourself the words Nissan did choose to market the Maxima back then...

g37guy01

If Acura had written in a marketing brochure the TL had 80% of the performance of a Ferrari at 40% of the price would it be true? Has advertising ever been twisted? Ever?

esco115

You failed to undertstand my post, you stated the Maxima is a main competitor for the FWD TL which is NOT.

And no not all Maxima models were 4DSC... ONLY 89-94 and 09-12... 00-03 are not 4DSC and never came with the sticker describing such marketing...