saturno_v

In my opinion it is a competitor, functionally they overlap perfectly.....and these two cars are heavily cross shopped I believe....

I quote from the 2002 brochure opening pages:

"4 door body, 2 door soul"

"Set it in motion and you'll quickly experience how this is no ordinary 4 door sedan. It's more like a sports car that happens to have four doors"

Do you need to read more to believe that the Maxima was not marketed as a grocery getter, puffy ride cruiser or grandma car??

BEAR-AvHistory

Your comments over the years are typically the TL SH AWD this & the SH AWD that, but I don't see much in the way of a qualifier for a version of the TL that is as rare as hens teeth.

You certainly did not say in your cross shopping posts that the AT TL’s were slower then most if not all of the cars you were discussing especially when performance got into the discussion. All we ever read from you was 0-60 in 5.1 or 5.2, can’t remember which, even thought a minimum of 95% of all 4G TL ‘s sold don’t have a prayer of making even close to that number.

One of you two said the 335is or M3 do not represent the 3 series because so few are sold. I can agree with that, no problem. The M5 does not really represent the 5 series either its a halo car like the M3 is to the 3 series. The IS is more of an outlier parts bin special.

Honda expected to sell 3500 6MT units at a volume level of 70,000 units a year. The 34,000 units they are actually selling may be expected to sell maybe 1,700 6MT. Most likely less do to the limitations put on color choices etc. with the car. Hardly the typical TL anymore the a 335IS/M3 are typical 335's.

This is why I thought it might be a good idea to offer you a way to prove your point about much better your personal car is then, what might be to you, the run of the mill SH AWD 5/6MT or base TL FWD. For all your talk over the years about all the cars you did better then I am amazed, simply amazed, that you are not interested in standing behind your claims.

BTW: Its my opinion that your opinion of what is in a 2002 marketing brochure at a time when 2013's are being released don’t mean squat.

saturno_v

DId I say that the TL has "rare" performance?? the TL 6 speed manual has top of the line performance for its mass and power...period....I talk from my perspective I drive a maual TL not an automatic....acceleration on the automatic may be slower but I believe that all the excellent handling capabilities are the same...according to the mags numbers which you may take an issue with

Again I was shopping for the manual TL, why I should comment on the automatic??

I did mentioned mags numbers for the manual...period....you seem overly upset about anything positive the TL has to offer...get off your "Acura sucks" kick.....

I do not really agree with that comment and I never made that observation....the 335 or the M3 are indicative of what the 3 series can offer, they do exist not matter how many BMW sell of them....the same with the M5...halo cars are very important as a way to sell the more mainstream ones, something the Japanese never learned to do effectively and it is coming back to bite them in the rear.....the main reason Acura is not considered Tier 1 luxury is precisely for the lack of uber luxurious and powerful models not matter how little they may sell in real life...when people think about the 5 series the M5 or the 550i is the object of ultimate desire, definitely not the 528....

I like to drive my cars on the road, often in a somewhat spirited way, and get the feeling of it...that is pretty much it....so everytime I read a magazine that says that the car I own can do 0-60 in whatever number should I try to chrono or run a dyno test?? What is your point?? who cares?? My claims?? What claims?? What part of mentioning magazine numbers is so hard to grasp???

What is really simply amazing is someone very critical of Acura and not interested in anything currently Acura makes (especially the God awful TL heaven forbid) spending considerable amout of time on an Acura forum and in the 4G TL section nevertheless....it's like if I were spending my time on an Audi forum feeling the urge of telling the forum members how ordinary and overpriced their cars are....

You do not make any sense and I was not talking to you anyway....

BEAR-AvHistory

I post here because you are so much fun to debate with...would not miss it for the world. If you & your buddy were not here I would most likely skip 90% of the threads.

Two things I never said the TL sucks & you will never find me saying it. In fact I have said many times its a nice car but I don't like its look. Don't thing that is an outrageous opinion to have regarding the car since Honda shares it. I also said it no longer has the performance edge that the 3G had over its contemporaries - Car & Driver, Road & Track & Motor Trend agree with me.

Second thing I did not say the that you said the TL has “rare” performance, no one would ever make a claim like that would they? What I said was the number of manual transmission cars produced are very rare. They perform better then the AT’s but there are so few of them (RARE) it does not matter much in how the car is viewed/perceived.

Just to be clear everytime you make a cross shopping comment or give advice to an OP you are talking about a 6MT?

esco115

Did you not get what Nissan tried to do here? lol Why you think the vq35 rolled out that year? I still stand correct this is no 4DSC never was even to nissan.

saturno_v

Whatever, you do not give up even in front of the evidence....yes your model with a scooter like transmission is a true 4 door sport car....happy now??

saturno_v

I'm glad to provide such inexpensive amusement for you....it is fun for me too to often dismantle your logic... :-) I do not have "buddies" here....

What particular edge the 3G had over its contemporaries that the 4G does nto have...we did already talk about the old Maxima which was able to match the previus TL numbers for less money...


Depends on what are they looking for....again while the AT may be slower than the 6MT in acceleration, the handling characteristics are the same as the rest of the value proposition.....not everybody wants to to dash to 60 in the shortest amount of time.....however I do think (personal humble opinion) that the 6MT is overall the better car over the AT from a pure driving enjoyment/performance point of view and also because it is......r a r e......

esco115

wtf? this assure me that your not worth to keep this going any longer...

BEAR-AvHistory

Great, wonderful, glad to hear that; it should make for some interesting debates. Please let me know when you are going to start.

I am sorry to hear that & after all you have done for the TL's image over the years.

winstrolvtec

You can spin these things in a bunch of different ways, for example, Honda basically doubled it's profit from 09 to 10 but what exactly is any of this supposed to prove relative to the TL? Do they have the same amount of vehicle models and trims? Are they available in all of the same markets? What else do they sell besides cars?

I think you can get the picture and understand exactly what little amount that has to do with this discussion. If you want to start a thread about auto sales, that is a different story but whatever, that's all fine, if it helps you sleep at night but understand I never said it had anything to do with Honda or BMW, notice that you are the one you wants to turn it into that. My point revolves around the constant notion and emphasis on sales, look at the sales, sales, sales, sales, blah, blah, blah. It's one you regularly use too.

There is a whole lot more to cars than just that and way more in depth discussion about them going on to boil it down to this simple minded approach. If that was the case, we could say look at Honda sales vs BMW's. Honda sold over 1 million more units globally than all BMW autos, which include MINI, etc, in 2010. Where is the relevance?

It's not all about sales or in relation to (unless it the actual topic) because it's all situational, much like my other example, one could essentially be going out of business and clearing out everything and have lots more "sales" than their competitor or the other about the M3 and 335is not really being a powerhouse 3 series in terms of sales yet that shouldn't necessarily detract from anything or have much to do with it.

The TL dip didn't cost Honda billions nor is it the sole reason they are still down compared to the record setting 07. It's not as big of an issue in the grand scheme of things. Does that mean it is supposed to automatically be a failure? That's largely a matter of opinion it would seem, especially when this gen TL has had 3 other vehicles that are more similar to it and more cross shopped alongside it, within the brand nonetheless, than any other TL in history, which also made the biggest movement in price and position than previously. Even so, just to give the benefit of the doubt, does that mean it can't be a good car or even the ideal one for someone who likes it and what it offers? I really don't get it.

I've noticed that it's 15 seconds until you see a vid and timeslip now. So you have upped the ante? See my point? That's exactly what I have been saying.

Perhaps me and Saturno will go to the track but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with you, the car, or the discussion. It's all about the double standard you and a few others here exhibit, that you want to write off as the members here being biased Acura fan boys or something to that effect but perhaps you really need to check yourself out as well, and no offence, just trying to help but it's probably really no more than a means for us to entertain ourselves anyway.

A timeslip and a vid for the TL but the magazine suffices for any other car as long as it is being pitted against the TL and is viewed more favorably, yet there is supposed to be something wrong with the way we see it?

winstrolvtec

But that's what we're saying, that is cherry picking and you are saying you only came up with that figure because a mag did which is now saying it's ok to use a time from a magazine as long as "you" like it but not when you don't. An early C&D comparo got 15.1.

There is a lot more info available to also consider. Try it again with R&T's TL SH vs CC comparo of 0-60 in 5.9 and 14.4@99 which is also listed at Dragtimes and is basically the same as what the guys at TOV got at an actual track. The others don't come up because we like to use best vs best to keep it as consistent as possible, again nothing to do with the TL, it's all cars compared in this way.

Keep in mind the car does not brake torque so whether you agree with the numbers or not, they could be even better if the car allowed this like many other cars do and somewhere along the lines of what high stall torque converters usually add too.

Based on those numbers, the TL to me would be every good as a car as far as everyday driving accleration as one that tested even up to 5.7 and 14.2@100 by the same methods, intervals, and conditions. I would say that about any car in this situation, not just the TL. Being that there has only been one official test of the 2012 6AT, I can't say with certainty but I think it would in theory, be good for 5.5 (as documented by some online sources) and 14 flat @ roughly 101 mph in the same way.

This shouldn't be anything too crazy to wrap one's head around based on the previous numbers and what the numbers have been for the 6MT in comparison as well. Again, it's based on those numbers and conditions and what have you, not necessarily whether anyone thinks it's possible or how easy to obtain in real life situations.

I just don't see that not making enough sense to anyone knowledgeable on the subject, even just in theory. It should have nothing to do with it being the TL in discussion, since to me it really doesn't. I'm just basing it on the info, not necessarily the car.

Also, you wouldn't really remove the roll out from an ET, that's how you measure reaction time. All standard track testing accounts for this, even other equipment that doesn't use lighting for reaction times still wants to simulate the unaccounted for rolling start which you always get at a track, whether it is a ft or less is up to the driver. You have that option at a track as well so I don't see much difference there.

Usually the only differences in testing besides the normal variances is the equipment itself, calibration of the equipment, and the surfaces, all of which is probably not much different than the variances from track to track anyway, and finally the traps speed measurements which could at times be higher with mags than tracks but we have seen the opposite to be true as well so it needs to be looked at on a case by case basis IMO.

saturno_v

If you go back and scan the previous posts you can see lot of it......

Over the years?? I own a TL since just a little bit over a year....and it is my first Acura...I do not give a f..k rat ass about the TL image....who cares, it is just a car and it may be my first and last Acura as far as I'm concerned....

saturno_v

So I did prove you dead wrong about the previous Maxima marketing image and you try to turn it around?? It is your way to say I was wrong?? I guess it is.... Just out of curiosity, how old are you??

winstrolvtec

I'm sorry but there is a little bit more contradiction here as in this case it appears that stock track times are better than those tested by the magazines, so I guess a vid and a timeslip for the TL would not be necessary afterall.

You see, according to you (if I am not mistaken), it's possible for the 335is in this case but for the TL, the mags are generous. It's not to pick on you but I have to point these things out. There does appear to be a double standard at play.

I understand the distinction between "average joe" and what the car is ultimately capable of "in the right hands" but you should be able to identify what is at least plausible with regards to the TL based on all the info available and presented, be it the AT or the MT.

We are not even going as far to say you can beat those times but at least give us that near magazine times should be feasible in the right hands. Not that it's easy or that it happens with less than ideal conditions but feasible nontheless. That's all we were ever really suggesting.

g37guy01

I think he was stating marketing and reality are worlds apart.

jspagna1

That's what I've heard. And by no means do I see myself Not owning another Maxima in the future?

jspagna1

Absolutely comparable IMO. G35's is built on the Maxima chasis. Same car,but I would never spend the extra money for the G the Max is bigger and not so harsh a ride. The only thing the G has going for it is the AWD. If the made the Max in AWD I would have strongly considered it.

g37guy01

In 2012 (actually any year), the G37/G35 is not the same car as the Maxima with a different label. The performance of the bigger engine, rwd bias, overall handling are a few of the differences.

The G37 is built in Nissans fm platform, which moves the engine closer to the rear for performance reasons. The Max is a cruiser with amentities the G is an ELLPS, like the TL SHAWD.

The Maxima is not built on Nissans FM platform, thus they are not the same car.

jspagna1

Wow going back and reading more of the posts,this thread is really kicking into high gear!

Saturno_V, I agree totally with your statements in post#55
I do think the 5.5 Gen(03 SE) Max was the best although the 3rd Gen (92 SE) was also a damn good car also.

Esco115, you are also correct with your statement post#80
For sure the 3rd Gen had the 4DSC stickers as my 92 SE had them on the rear side glass.

esco115

Same here I probably would not own another one as my next vehicle is a SUV but if the 8th gen is a hitter then I might give it another try who knows...

jspagna1

Well since you brought it up,not sure what type of SUV your looking for but I have been looking at buying an new SUV for the last year or so. Wanted a midsize because of the family. Still own my 97 4Runner that I bought brand new and has 166,000 miles and still running strong.
I wanted an SUV with ample cargo space. Looked at GMC Arcadia,Honda Pilot,Nissan Pathfinder and Toyota 4Runner. I ended up buying a 2011 4Runner SR5 and so far absolutely love it. Still keeping the 97. What I have found with cars today, they just don't build them like they used to. I don't care who the manufacturer is, it's just the way it is.
So that's just my for you! Good luck.

saturno_v

G37guy01 is right, the Maxima is not built on the same chassis as the G.
On top of that the front suspension is significantly different, the G uses double wishbone while the Maxima has MacPherson struts.

A different label does noy means that the cars were marketed in a different way.....different words same meaning.....the Maxima has always marketed as a very fast sport sedan and any look at any commercial of the time (youtube helps) does show that in spades.

No he was clearly stating that only the Maxima generations he mentioned were marketed as sport sedan while this is absolutely not true and I gave him ample proof of that and after he decided to mumble whatever excuse he could find instead of admitting he was wrong.....some people have problem with admitting that sometimes they are wrong....do not ask me why...

BEAR-AvHistory

Sorry guys but I thought this being an enthusiast forum people would be more interested in hands on performance as opposed to magazine spec racing, my bad.

I just wonder why people who talk about performance, buy 6MT cars because in the case of the TL they perform better are so reluctant & find so many reasons to avoid finding out what they really have in their driveway? Who knows you maybe able to beat the magazines it has been done before if for no reason then track location & weather.

Drag times shows two 5AT’s that had better ET’s then the magazines 5AT’s by 2 & 4 tenths. I would like to see if I could better, equal or come close to the Motor Trend 6MT time of 13.9 @ 99 mph or R&T 13.7 @ 102. But that’s just me.

I remember when the 6MT came out the talk here was guys falling all over themselves to get to the track & try it out. Some posted about meeting each other for a day but for some reason it never happened.

BTW On the 335IS C&D got 13.3 @ 108mph 0-60 – 4.6 R&T got 13.2 @ 106mph 0-60 – 4.6 M/T got 13.3 @ 105mph 0-60 - 4.8 The only thing surprising about the magazine numbers are that they are so consistent since with any turbo car heat can vary the numbers quite a bit.

The Average Joe vid shows three same day runs 13.1 @ 108, 13.5 @ 106 & 13.4 @ 109. The guy in the vid used launch control on the first & auto on his second (broke traction), not sure about the third run. His first run while the motor was still cool was the best. He did one ET better then the magazines by 1/10 & his best MPH was better by 1 mph.

So yes he beat the mag numbers on 1 out of 3 tries.

saturno_v

I drive a manual car because I like to drive a manual period...different driving feel and style....does not necessarily means I have to dyno my car or take a chrono or a track test....


My wife love to drive her STI that does not mean she wants to run a rallye session with it.....

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^^^^

Just a matter of curiosity on my part, have you ever run at an NHRA or SCCA track event?

winstrolvtec

Many people just aren't obsessed with speed or how fast their car really is or have to be faster than the other guy, etc. I'm not knocking it, some people have dedictaed cars just for that purpose, to tune and track and what not but personally, I can't concern myself with that, at least for this stage of my life.

Furthermore, we can't realistically bring every car to a track every time there is a performance comparison or discussion. Most people shopping a car want to know more less what it is capable of in terms or performance but never actually bring to a track or use it in that way. So the next best thing would be to use the info that is available, best times vs best times (or worst vs worst) for consistency and to get an idea how they compare and it serves as a reference. There is no perfect way to go about this but it does serve it's purpose when used properly.

As far as getting the 6MT, I like driving manual and even if I had a choice between a 6MT or 7DCT+, I would take the manual, could care less about the mpg or performance figures and whether it will cost me or not. The manual I will always use and enjoy, those few extra ticks really don't serve me in any way.

saturno_v

I drove on a track few times....fun to do but not my main interest

esco115

Dude you haven't yet proved me wrong? Guy nissan marketed the 2002-2003 that way because it released the vq35 those years as the vq30 was nothing but failure with issues so they bumped the hp 255 from 222 which was unheard of at the time for a sedan... Dude keep reading magazine and try to keep with the real world... Why market the 2002-2003 as one and not the 2000-2001??? Lol guy quit while ur behind... Join nissan forums so u can stay alert... Lol

saturno_v

I do not give a rat ass about the reasons Nissan introduced the VQ35 in 2001 (as MY 2002) and the VQ30 issues you are talking about are new to me, that engine seem very reliable from what I heard (and from the number of gen 4 and gen 5 Maximas I still see on the road)...the fact is that the Maxima was marketed as a sport sedan, before gen 5.5 and after, not matter if the exact label "4 door sport car" was used or not.....no word gimmick is going to change that as I clearly and unequivocably proven to you.

esco115

I am actually leaning towards the MDX honestly I am not looking for a V8 SUV at this time especially in todays economy... I am just waiting to see is if the new MDX is going to look any better then the current one as its currently running on its 6yrs of the same body style just freshened thats it.

3 words... LOL!

g37guy01

As I keep saying reality and fantasy are always a moving target for the marketing department of any company. Toyota could market the Camry as a sport sedan, doesn't mean it's reality.

esco115

Still got the G? coupe or sedan?

g37guy01

G sedan. Inherently it's very nice, very stable, very fast. I'm missing the wow factor though.

esco115

I bet, I was looking at one before the Max, but the interior is to small and for my needs... But I did like the power, handling, and looks but once I climbed inside and then sat in the back seat I was like damn!

BEAR-AvHistory

Maybe paint it grabber orange.

I am pretty much semi-stealth. Except for the extra oil & water coolers behind the grill wings it looks like a run of the mill 335 coupe with an old guy driving.

g37guy01

G is daily driver not family sedan. It is smaller than the max but interior volume was not first criteria. I never had anyone complain the back seat was too s mall.

g37guy01

Cool stuff your 335.

EazyRider562

I have one for ayou guys then and this will furthermore prove my point...

Let's just say your the local dive and some hot chick cruises up and asks you what kind've car you drive???

What would make a better impression by saying that you drive a Nissan or an Acura? Come on guys....

g37guy01

^^^^^ you are really kidding? Right?

saturno_v

LOL indeed...debating with you is utterly pointless...

Did Toyota marketed the Camry at that time (or at any time) as a sport sedan?? A resounding no.....if you think the Maxima of that era and the Camry had the same driving feel and character just because they both were FWD, I have a bridge in New York to sell you....