Wow...can going from tucking to one finger gap really effect handling that much?!?!
07-23-2007, 03:42 PM
#1
Wow...can going from tucking to one finger gap really effect handling that much?!?!
So I decided to raise my car up a little because driving it everyday to and from work was really starting to be a pain since the roads here are pretty fvcked up. My car used to tuck all around and it handled like it was on rails. I took it back to my shop and decided to raise it to about one finger gap, and MAN....what a difference!! The car doesn't seem as responsive as it used to....I think i'm gonna get my fenders rolled and go back down 
My friend said it might of had that much of an impact because he only raised the front enough for it not to rub, do you think if we raised the back a little it would handle better? From the looks of it, the back and front are about even right now...
I just didn't think raising it would have that much of an impact on handling. Feels like I never had coilovers
Ok ok...thats going a bit too far but still!!
My friend said it might of had that much of an impact because he only raised the front enough for it not to rub, do you think if we raised the back a little it would handle better? From the looks of it, the back and front are about even right now...I just didn't think raising it would have that much of an impact on handling. Feels like I never had coilovers
Ok ok...thats going a bit too far but still!!
07-23-2007, 09:37 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by hondafans
Just get some better tires to go with those sick ass wheels. You should not be rollin on blue light specials when you have 203's on your ride.
07-23-2007, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ndabunka
Spoken like a guy truly not knowledgable about tires. As an FYI, I too was initially leary of the 452's but I discovered that they were/are better than 95% of tires that cost more. These aren't exactly cheap either. $160/tire for my 19's. I've driven the top of the line Mich's and Pontenza's (the S02, not the POS OEM stuff) on my prior AMG and these 452's are just as good. So, do a little research before you insult (so you at least APPEAR to have a clue)
I had Falkens once and purchased them based on A+++++ CR review and the people that praised them on this site. Boy were they all wrong. The Falkens were probably the worst tire I've ever owened next to Nitto. Perhaps you and I have a differing view on tires. The Falkens were not even close to the S02's or Pilot Sports that have been running on my cars for years. Maybe the 452 is Falken's new whoopdidoo tire but they are nowhere close to a true ultra high performance tire
I'm lucky to get 15k out of my summer tires and I want the stickest tires I can get without having to go to a Type R compund tire. So, as it might appear I don't know what I'm talking about perhaps we have different views on what makes a great tire and getting 30-40k out of a set of tires it not real high on my priority list unless I'm pruchasing tires for my MDX.
07-23-2007, 10:12 PM
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Falken GRB FK-452
- The falken FK-452 is falkens new flagship performance tyre, the fk-452 has a special silica based compound. Innovative tread design from motor sports racing technology. Improved resistance to aquaplaning.
Grip in Dry: 3 out of 5
Grip in wet: 4.5 out of 5
Overall performance: 4 out of 5
Looks like a good tire if you live in WPB or Seattle but I'd rather have my Dry grip 4.5 or 5 out 5 and sacrafice the wet performance.
ndabunka I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic and we'll leave it at that.
- The falken FK-452 is falkens new flagship performance tyre, the fk-452 has a special silica based compound. Innovative tread design from motor sports racing technology. Improved resistance to aquaplaning.
Grip in Dry: 3 out of 5
Grip in wet: 4.5 out of 5
Overall performance: 4 out of 5
Looks like a good tire if you live in WPB or Seattle but I'd rather have my Dry grip 4.5 or 5 out 5 and sacrafice the wet performance.
ndabunka I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic and we'll leave it at that.
07-24-2007, 09:56 AM
#7
JJ,
Unfortanely, your statements about handling couldn't be farther from the truth. Contrary to popular belief, slamming your car does more damage than good to the true handling of the vehicle.
Like many other here who believe handling is improved by slamming the car to the ground, you guys are confusing the lack of body roll as "on rails" handling, which isn't the case.
2 major factors you have neglected.
Camber-
As your suspension travels up, the wheel camber negatively. When you slam the car, you're already driving on negative camber. In a turn, your contact patch is greatly reduced to the inside of the tire. The lower you sit, the more this problem is amplified. As you enter a turn, and the suspension squats on the turn in, you experiecne yet even more camber, reduce your traction further. Handling is defined by traction.
Camber kits and swaybars can help offset this camber issue.
Camber kits correct the camber for the normal ride height, but throw off the suspension geometry completely in turn, becasue you've shortened one of the arms of the multi-link. That's bad too.
Body roll-
Sway bars and firm springs reduce body roll by transferring that force across both wheels, but that momentum in a turn has to go somwhere. In a hard turn, a stiff swaybar will merely make the inside wheel to lift/lost traction. A wheel losing traction does not help handling.
Lowering the car SLIGHTLY, as in A-Spec is OK, becasue the drop is mild enough to allow suspension uptravel in turn without greatly cambering your wheels, and the lower center of gravity reduces the body roll.
Needless to say, handling did not IMPROVE with your wheels tucked, but the car felt firmer because you were riding on pre-loaded springs. Take a high speed set of turns slammed, then raise it up an inch and FEEL the handling improve.
Unfortanely, your statements about handling couldn't be farther from the truth. Contrary to popular belief, slamming your car does more damage than good to the true handling of the vehicle.
Like many other here who believe handling is improved by slamming the car to the ground, you guys are confusing the lack of body roll as "on rails" handling, which isn't the case.
2 major factors you have neglected.
Camber-
As your suspension travels up, the wheel camber negatively. When you slam the car, you're already driving on negative camber. In a turn, your contact patch is greatly reduced to the inside of the tire. The lower you sit, the more this problem is amplified. As you enter a turn, and the suspension squats on the turn in, you experiecne yet even more camber, reduce your traction further. Handling is defined by traction.
Camber kits and swaybars can help offset this camber issue.
Camber kits correct the camber for the normal ride height, but throw off the suspension geometry completely in turn, becasue you've shortened one of the arms of the multi-link. That's bad too.
Body roll-
Sway bars and firm springs reduce body roll by transferring that force across both wheels, but that momentum in a turn has to go somwhere. In a hard turn, a stiff swaybar will merely make the inside wheel to lift/lost traction. A wheel losing traction does not help handling.
Lowering the car SLIGHTLY, as in A-Spec is OK, becasue the drop is mild enough to allow suspension uptravel in turn without greatly cambering your wheels, and the lower center of gravity reduces the body roll.
Needless to say, handling did not IMPROVE with your wheels tucked, but the car felt firmer because you were riding on pre-loaded springs. Take a high speed set of turns slammed, then raise it up an inch and FEEL the handling improve.
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07-24-2007, 12:03 PM
#9
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Actually yes. Handling difference between car lowered all way to the bump stoppers and just an inch higher can be quite noticeable.
On a flat surface it would handle better lowered all the way and on a bumpy it is just opposite. It is so because lower car has actually very stiff suspension, no body roll, so it doesn’t change wheel angles under lateral forces, which provides best possible contact between tires and pavement. Negative chamber is crucial here and any attempt to correct it is actually bad for handling.
On a bumpy pavement car like that acts like whole its mass is unsuspended, so wheels can not follow the surface. Loosing the contact with surface obviously doesn’t help the grip. On the other hand, a bit higher car has some of suspension travel, so unsuspended mass is way smaller, just wheels and brakes and they manage to follow bumpy surface, creating more grip. But on a flat surface car like that has some body roll making chamber angle on the outside wheel and its contact surface smaller. That results in lower grip.
In order to prevent this engineers developed double wishbone suspension with shorter upper members so that wheel under load gets more chamber angle. Under lateral forces tires are deformed, tending to lift inside part from the pavement. Negative chamber helps to prevent that and again is the most important for good handling. Just one look at any racing car and it become obvious. Doesn’t it?
On a flat surface it would handle better lowered all the way and on a bumpy it is just opposite. It is so because lower car has actually very stiff suspension, no body roll, so it doesn’t change wheel angles under lateral forces, which provides best possible contact between tires and pavement. Negative chamber is crucial here and any attempt to correct it is actually bad for handling.
On a bumpy pavement car like that acts like whole its mass is unsuspended, so wheels can not follow the surface. Loosing the contact with surface obviously doesn’t help the grip. On the other hand, a bit higher car has some of suspension travel, so unsuspended mass is way smaller, just wheels and brakes and they manage to follow bumpy surface, creating more grip. But on a flat surface car like that has some body roll making chamber angle on the outside wheel and its contact surface smaller. That results in lower grip.
In order to prevent this engineers developed double wishbone suspension with shorter upper members so that wheel under load gets more chamber angle. Under lateral forces tires are deformed, tending to lift inside part from the pavement. Negative chamber helps to prevent that and again is the most important for good handling. Just one look at any racing car and it become obvious. Doesn’t it?
07-26-2007, 07:48 PM
#10
Very well put Kennedy! I have been saying this for years but it's hard to convince people because I guess I never put it as good as you.
Suspension technology and geometrics is pretty complicated and car engineers have put quite a lot of work/experience over the years to get just that right balance and compromise. It's easy to screw it up. I'm dropping my car 1.5" soon and that's all the negative camber I need, thank you! I always tell people not to drop more than 2" (slammed). Looks cool for sure but you pay for it elsewhere.
Suspension technology and geometrics is pretty complicated and car engineers have put quite a lot of work/experience over the years to get just that right balance and compromise. It's easy to screw it up. I'm dropping my car 1.5" soon and that's all the negative camber I need, thank you! I always tell people not to drop more than 2" (slammed). Looks cool for sure but you pay for it elsewhere.
07-26-2007, 08:32 PM
#11
From MrHeelToe tech forum- excerpt- see site for full article and pics
it is about camber kits and toe and how everything interacts when lowered
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.pl?num=1162587420 for full text
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will.
Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don't wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key.
When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension.
Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.
But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!
Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha...it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it's side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.
Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It's why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car.
The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).
The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I AM COMPLETELY SERIOUS when I say that, as an authorized Tein distributor, 9 times out of ten we do not sell a camber kit. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2". I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure.
Camber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?
Here are some images to illustrate what I mean.
In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there:
Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside...that's camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed.
In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned.
Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire.
With a drop under 1.75", you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time!
Other things of note!
Camber and Caster are not adjustable on our Honda cars! I think we already know that , but I was just noting it. Toe is fully adjustable front and rear.
Front tires always wear faster than rear ones. The wheels back there are just free wheeling. There is little weight on them and the is no load/torque on them. Traction is not an issue and wear is nearly non-existant. If you are going to get a camber kit for your Honda, you only really need it in the front.
Some people wonder why Hondas do not have camber-adjustable pillow mounts available. The reason is simple. It's that Double-Wishbone suspension thing again. Cars which have camber adjustable pillow mounts awailable are all MacPherson strut suspension cars. In a MacPherson car, where struts are used, the damper locates the steering knuckle; it itself is a suspension member. In a Double-Wishbone car, upper and lower arms locate the knuckle, and the shock and spring are attached to one of the arms to provide dampening. So you see, with arms locating the knuckle, moving the shock around really does not change any alignment angles. So having camber adjustable upper pillow mounts on these applications is utterly pointless.
Alignment shops are like body shops. Most of them suck, but they are a necessary evil in our world. The trick is to find a good one you like. I hear a lot of good thigs about west-end. There are a couple in South Orange County here I recommend. I know a lot about alignments because I did them at work for a while. I wish I had an alignment machine JUST so I could do my own now!
Negative camber is visually apparent from outside the car. This is a big deal to some people. Likewise, I am not trying to tell people that lowering the car will not result in negative camber which is out of spec. All I am saying is that is does not have a big impact. Really, to fix the looks and alginment numbers, you'd need a camber kit. Some people just have different prioritys.
That's it for this posting. Thanks for reading! Feel free to reply!
Marcus
Heeltoeauto.com. Nuff said.
it is about camber kits and toe and how everything interacts when lowered
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.pl?num=1162587420 for full text
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will.
Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don't wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key.
When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension.
Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.
But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!
Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha...it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it's side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.
Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It's why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car.
The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).
The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I AM COMPLETELY SERIOUS when I say that, as an authorized Tein distributor, 9 times out of ten we do not sell a camber kit. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2". I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure.
Camber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?
Here are some images to illustrate what I mean.
In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there:
Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside...that's camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed.
In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned.
Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire.
With a drop under 1.75", you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time!
Other things of note!
Camber and Caster are not adjustable on our Honda cars! I think we already know that , but I was just noting it. Toe is fully adjustable front and rear.
Front tires always wear faster than rear ones. The wheels back there are just free wheeling. There is little weight on them and the is no load/torque on them. Traction is not an issue and wear is nearly non-existant. If you are going to get a camber kit for your Honda, you only really need it in the front.
Some people wonder why Hondas do not have camber-adjustable pillow mounts available. The reason is simple. It's that Double-Wishbone suspension thing again. Cars which have camber adjustable pillow mounts awailable are all MacPherson strut suspension cars. In a MacPherson car, where struts are used, the damper locates the steering knuckle; it itself is a suspension member. In a Double-Wishbone car, upper and lower arms locate the knuckle, and the shock and spring are attached to one of the arms to provide dampening. So you see, with arms locating the knuckle, moving the shock around really does not change any alignment angles. So having camber adjustable upper pillow mounts on these applications is utterly pointless.
Alignment shops are like body shops. Most of them suck, but they are a necessary evil in our world. The trick is to find a good one you like. I hear a lot of good thigs about west-end. There are a couple in South Orange County here I recommend. I know a lot about alignments because I did them at work for a while. I wish I had an alignment machine JUST so I could do my own now!
Negative camber is visually apparent from outside the car. This is a big deal to some people. Likewise, I am not trying to tell people that lowering the car will not result in negative camber which is out of spec. All I am saying is that is does not have a big impact. Really, to fix the looks and alginment numbers, you'd need a camber kit. Some people just have different prioritys.
That's it for this posting. Thanks for reading! Feel free to reply!
Marcus
Heeltoeauto.com. Nuff said.
07-27-2007, 05:21 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by hondafans
Falken GRB FK-452
- The falken FK-452 is falkens new flagship performance tyre, the fk-452 has a special silica based compound. Innovative tread design from motor sports racing technology. Improved resistance to aquaplaning.
Grip in Dry: 3 out of 5
Grip in wet: 4.5 out of 5
Overall performance: 4 out of 5
Looks like a good tire if you live in WPB or Seattle but I'd rather have my Dry grip 4.5 or 5 out 5 and sacrafice the wet performance.
ndabunka I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic and we'll leave it at that.
- The falken FK-452 is falkens new flagship performance tyre, the fk-452 has a special silica based compound. Innovative tread design from motor sports racing technology. Improved resistance to aquaplaning.
Grip in Dry: 3 out of 5
Grip in wet: 4.5 out of 5
Overall performance: 4 out of 5
Looks like a good tire if you live in WPB or Seattle but I'd rather have my Dry grip 4.5 or 5 out 5 and sacrafice the wet performance.
ndabunka I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic and we'll leave it at that.
07-27-2007, 07:32 PM
#13
Team Owner
I second that less bodyroll does not mean it handles better. My auto TL rolls like crazy but handles slightly better than my friend's IS350 with sport suspension. If it's lowered to the bumpstops it may feel like it handles better during normal or slightly spirited driving but it will scare you at the limit or when hitting bumps.
Instead of going on "feel" and other people's reviews based on speculation, I tested my old tires vs new tires both in braking distance and in how much speed I could carry around the same corner. Everyone will say their brand is the best but how many actually have numbers to prove anything. I would bet the one with the stiffer sidewall that gave better "feel" would be declared the winner everytime.
Instead of going on "feel" and other people's reviews based on speculation, I tested my old tires vs new tires both in braking distance and in how much speed I could carry around the same corner. Everyone will say their brand is the best but how many actually have numbers to prove anything. I would bet the one with the stiffer sidewall that gave better "feel" would be declared the winner everytime.
07-28-2007, 11:18 AM
#14
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If you can handle the cost just use R compound tires. By far the best performance mod that can be done when it comes to handling. Unfortuately they don't last long and they are pretty expensive, which is why I can't run them on my TL. They were an absolute blast when I had them on my s2000. The cornering and stopping power of the R's are pretty amazing.
07-28-2007, 11:54 AM
#15
Team Owner
Originally Posted by hondafans
If you can handle the cost just use R compound tires. By far the best performance mod that can be done when it comes to handling. Unfortuately they don't last long and they are pretty expensive, which is why I can't run them on my TL. They were an absolute blast when I had them on my s2000. The cornering and stopping power of the R's are pretty amazing.
07-28-2007, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JJaber06
So I decided to raise my car up a little because driving it everyday to and from work was really starting to be a pain since the roads here are pretty fvcked up. My car used to tuck all around and it handled like it was on rails. I took it back to my shop and decided to raise it to about one finger gap, and MAN....what a difference!! The car doesn't seem as responsive as it used to....I think i'm gonna get my fenders rolled and go back down My friend said it might of had that much of an impact because he only raised the front enough for it not to rub, do you think if we raised the back a little it would handle better? From the looks of it, the back and front are about even right now...
I just didn't think raising it would have that much of an impact on handling. Feels like I never had coilovers Ok ok...thats going a bit too far but still!!
My friend said it might of had that much of an impact because he only raised the front enough for it not to rub, do you think if we raised the back a little it would handle better? From the looks of it, the back and front are about even right now...I just didn't think raising it would have that much of an impact on handling. Feels like I never had coilovers
Ok ok...thats going a bit too far but still!!
07-28-2007, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hondafans
I had Falkens once and purchased them based on A+++++ CR review and the people that praised them on this site. Boy were they all wrong. The Falkens were probably the worst tire I've ever owened next to Nitto. Perhaps you and I have a differing view on tires. The Falkens were not even close to the S02's or Pilot Sports that have been running on my cars for years. Maybe the 452 is Falken's new whoopdidoo tire but they are nowhere close to a true ultra high performance tire
I'm lucky to get 15k out of my summer tires and I want the stickest tires I can get without having to go to a Type R compund tire. So, as it might appear I don't know what I'm talking about perhaps we have different views on what makes a great tire and getting 30-40k out of a set of tires it not real high on my priority list unless I'm pruchasing tires for my MDX.
I'm lucky to get 15k out of my summer tires and I want the stickest tires I can get without having to go to a Type R compund tire. So, as it might appear I don't know what I'm talking about perhaps we have different views on what makes a great tire and getting 30-40k out of a set of tires it not real high on my priority list unless I'm pruchasing tires for my MDX.
07-28-2007, 09:08 PM
#18
Team Owner
What are you guys using to determine what tire is good or not? I see a ton of threads saying this tire or that tire is the best or this oil is great without any data to back it up other than the engine hasn't seized or the tires are feel soft.
07-29-2007, 11:28 AM
#19
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NAS Pensacola, Fl
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Originally Posted by I hate cars
What are you guys using to determine what tire is good or not? I see a ton of threads saying this tire or that tire is the best or this oil is great without any data to back it up other than the engine hasn't seized or the tires are feel soft.
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