What I an looking for is someone that is going for an alignment soon at a quality shop and to have the shop set the rear toe to spec and with the alignment equiment still on the car add a couple average people to the back seat and recheck the specs to see how it altered the toe setting. Did the toe setting go from in spec to toed out? Or toed in more?

Background

I have an 06 that was dropped on Comptech springs and prior to the drop the rear camber on the passenger side was just out of spec. After the lowering it obviously worsened.

I had the car aligned and set the toe to spec but because of the bad camber and trunk loading I had feathering on that tire on the inside.

I installed the Engalls camber kit and realigned the car. We set the Camber to the minimum same with the toe. All was well for a while but last summer I didn't drive the car a lot outside of road trips that had loadings in the trunk. ( bought a second car and used it mostly around town and short trips ). With those loadings I am experiencing wear and feathering on the inside of both rear tires.

I had the alignment rechecked and it was still at the same settings. 2 different shops to eliminate out of spec machine.


What I am trying to determine is should I set the toe in more to accomodate the loading if in fact the additional weight causes the camber to toe it out more.

 

you hit the nail on the head (and i bet both times the alignment was rechecked, the car was empty too; also when you do get it redone, make sure to have roughly a half a tank of gas {or half way in between where you like to fill it up; so if you always fill up at like a 1/4 tank, make the tank be like 5/8's full}, and full, since that is the most variable then when you are driving as far as weight; as it goes from full to empty

basically because you are using the car for longer trips with the trunk loaded, what you really need to do is load the trunk up as you normally would for a trip, and THEN go get it aligned with the weight in the back, so that they can set it to spec, as the vehicle is normally driven (ie: loaded down for trips) (and if you normally carry rear passengers too {fronts not so much, but would not hurt either if you wanted to try and get the alignment perfect}, try to find something to help compensate for their weight also)






edit: on pickup trucks, some alignment machines will even get you to measure the actual rake of the truck, ie: what the angle of the frame is from front to back, since when loaded down, any positive rake starts to go away (which can increase castor quite a bit, especially depending on how long the truck is, standard or crew cab; and short or long box) which also can affect the actual toe and camber of the wheels depending on the exact geometry of the suspension, and how it reacts under load

 

If you're getting feathering on the inside of the rear tires, then usually that would mean excessive toe in.

The TSB for the bump stops says that "The rear toe increases when the vehicle is loaded". It doesn't say toe-in or toe-out, but I have to assume they mean toe-in. (The link won't work unless you follow the instructions in the TSB thread in the "Problems" forum.)

http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B05-050.PDF

I really don't think you need to wait. I'd go back as suggested and have the car re-aligned with additional load. I probably would load it like you do when you make these trips (including a full gas tank) and see how far off the toe is when they first put it on the rack.

You may need to have this done a couple of times before you find a load/alignment combination that prevents the wear on your tires when both empty and loaded.

You might want to consider jumping in on Firestone's (or another) lifetime alignment deal...

 

Just a thought. If you have the printout from the first alignment after the car was lowered, the before should give an indication on the negative camber and toe spec, presuming the vehicle was within specs before the drop.
We all know that with the IRS, when weight is added the negative camber withh increase, to what degree would be dependent upon the shock and spring rates, as only an air bag system would keep the specs correct when weight is added. Ceratin manufacturer's specify cabin weight, trunk weight as well as fuel capacity before an alignment.

 

And to further clarify:

Feathering is a gradual increase in wear across the tread from one side to the other and this type of wear is most often caused by excessive toe-in.

If there is just excessive wear around the extreme inside edge, then that is most likely caused by a camber issue.

Of course, you could have a wear pattern that has a little of both characteristics and could be a combination of camber and toe-in issues...

Are you certain the wear is indeed purely feathering??

 

I might have used the wrong terminology here .. there isn't feathering across the tires there is wear & cupping on the inside.

From Goodyears site

Excessive Toe

Excessive toe-in/positive toe results in outside edge wear of the tire
Excessive toe-out/negative toe results in inside edge wear of the tire


This is why I am asking someone to check to see if when loaded does it increase the negative toe as my toe is set to very close to zero.

 

more then likely needs shocks (main cause of tires cupping; along with a lack of rotations, but more the shocks then anything), they are too weak for the lowering springs

especially if the tire is not perfectly aligned when in it's normal loaded state, like how you do with the road trips (has a higher tendency to cause the tire to kinda skip across the road; but considering your car is still aligned good unloaded, i don't think it would be the main cause of the cupping though, more the shocks would be)

 

Shocks are fine ... only 1" drop .. car has 36K miles on it . Its not cupped like you see on a lot of 4x4 it is very slight , just enough to see a little feathering on the first row of tread on the inside. Cupping your refering to is caused by the inability of the shock to accomidate a bounce in the first part of the travel. Tires rotated front to rear every 4K. Car only went about 6K last year.

Anyway .. back on subject. Could someone just confirm what happens when the camber changes with weight.. does it toe out?

If so all I'm going to need to look at is putting the toe inat max spec to accomodate this.

 

Then I'd say you have a camber and/or shock issue.

 

the amount of drop does not mean too much, it is still not a stock spring anymore, which also happens to be stiffer geneally, and even if the shocks only had 36k, they are not enough to handle the necessary forces (and the additional load, does not help either, it is asking more of the shock also, due to having to control even more weight then a otherwise empty car, that most people do when driving it on a daily basis
also when shocks just sit, it can be worse then actually driving/using them, because the seals start drying out and such, and leak/bypassing internally prematurely; let alone the oil never gets circulated around enough

as far as testing the shocks out; if you do the bounce test to them, I WANT TO SEE IT DOWN WITH THE CAR LOADED DOWN; since there is more inertia for them to try and stop moving



also as far as the cupping on the tires, it's only the start of it, and will only get worse over time (even if you do put on new shocks)
also i've seen cupping just as bad on a civic, as you mention as being on 4x4's
and you said cupping first.... in one of your posts; not me

 

also i have replaced front shocks on STOCK lexus GX470, with only like 60k miles on them, due to externally leaking (they where like $300 a piece too, only available from Lexus, since they where electronic shocks)

even then, they were sold more for the leaking then anything, but after the customer got the vehicle back, they a called a couple of days later, and said it rode/braked so much better (and it probably because the original shocks just where not up to the task anymore, even though they did not have too many miles on them)(and almost wished they had actually done it sooner)

edit: btw they had no odd tire wear either yet
edit:edit: the truck was only like 2-3 years old at the time; customer drove around her clientele alot

 

We are derailed here .....

Lets get back on track ...

 

it's still about your tires/suspension/alignment, i was putting out examples, that shocks can go out earlier then expected

 

Just like any manufactured product, an occasional shock may go before it's expected lifetime, but as there is no mileage replacement on shocks, most will last well over 100k plus miles without any problems and I'm certain his shock/spring combinations aren't worn, nor cause for any concern, it's just the weight.

Put a level on the rear tire and load it with weight, people and cargo and watch the negative camber increase. You can also do that with the toe, stretch a string from tire to tire and load it up.

 

Yeep it does increase ... just not sure what said increase does to the toe.

 

I think the original idea is a good one. The alternative is to load the car down as it's normally driven before alignment. I've stacked my home weights in the car in the appropriate places before.

During one of my trips to the bodyshop I told them to not touch the alignment because I had pulled 150lbs worth of subs out of the trunk before it went in. They did an alignment anyway and eventually it caused cupping on the rear tires.

Just curious, how much do you weigh? I'm at 225lbs and it's worthwhile to get the car aligned with that much extra weight in it. It can make a difference.

 

165

 

Ya I didn't want to weight the car then find the toe went to more positive when the car was empty.

I'm suspecting it goes more negtive with the added camber from weight.

 

but the shocks are too weak for his use/application though

 

Why would they be ... when xxxxxx number of other TG TLrs run them and they don't have issues. The only thing that changes is the range of travel in the shock and thats not radical in this case.

And I in all my years have yet to see 2 shocks fail at the same time under such mild use.

 

BUT as you said you carry additional weight; ie: a loaded trunk for a road trip; which is going to be more weight then most everybody else carries on a regular basis, which is more demanding of shocks


and the range of travel in the shock, yes; but you also have to think about the springs, the spring rate is INCREASED some (which when loaded down increases even further); and the shocks where only designed for the factory springs, not aftermarket ones

 

Can you tell me if the toe increases more negative or positive with added weight?

 

iirc, out at stock height , but i think once the lower arm go past the level mark (which lowering can put it past) it starts to toe in (but then again stiffer springs the suspension does not travel as much normally, so the change is not as dramatic, but still does though



btw toe out, normally feathers the inside the worst, because that edge, actually catches the first, and gets kinda pulled underneth some, where the back edge just kinda rides up, so it is not pushed down as hard (think of what happens if you where to drag a tire at like a 45 degree angle to exaggerate it)

 

Interesting point!

I am still wondering about this myself, but I'd say the TSB wording would seem to back you up...


But I'm not really sure the wear he describes is feathering???

 

he did correct himself though

 

Yeah, what I was trying to indicate was that the wear he describes reflects cupping more than feathering, hence pointing toward a shock and/or camber issue...

 

and not a toe issue

 

Ok just to clairify a few things; because terminology varies from area to ares.

A) Car usage last summer had a higher ratio of loaded v/s non loaded trips. Loaded = maybe 400 pounds at the max on some trips.

B) Feathering is only on the inner part of the tread ( in other words the first 1.5" before the first rain groove) not across the face of the tread.

C) The feathering isn't visable but you can feel it at the leading edge of each tread block if you run your hand in the opposite direction of the tire rotation. ( Directional tires ).

D) Camber is set near zero ( vertical for cosmetic reasons.)

E) Toe was set at near zero as opposed to the max positive toe in the spec.

F) Car is lowered on Comptech springs which dropped it about an inch.

G) Camber was out of spec on the passenger side even before lowering.

H) At the advice in this forum it was indicated if the toe was set all would be fine lowered that much. Well it wasn't and I experienced inner wear on the passenger tire.

I) Ran first summer with in reality no noticable wear on the rears ( Visual or feeling )

J) Last summer ran per A above. Alignment was done 2 weeks after camber kit installed and was rechecked in August 17 months later. No change in settings. Car was stored 5 of the 17 months.

K) Tires were ran at 40 PSI cold at ambient temp of 20C.. again on advice from this forum and from more than 1 poster. Tires are 235/35/19. I find out later from 3 different techs at Tire Rack and 1 at 1010tires that they should be run at 32 PSI. This might have been part of the problem.


Anyway back to my original question. Does anyone know for a FACT which way the toe changes when the camber goes neagtive?

 

best way would be to put it on the alignment rack, then get a couple of fat people to sit in the trunk and watch what happens to the toe (especially from the fact that depending on the exact geometry/height it can vary a little)



and more air pressure is not so much your issue, because you are not really getting any center tread wear (but you could also look at it like this too, that the tire are too hard with that pressure, causing them to ever so slightly bounce down the road), so i would say maybe like 36-38 psi instead




edit: also you do know the factory calls for 1 degree of camber in the back; plus or minus half a degree
cause they do set it up, so that as you are driving along with the body roll on the car, it will actually even out the tire wear relatively good





also on C; by the way you make it sound that is not feathering; this is feathering :



by what you are saying, is that it is indeed cupping of the inner tread of the tire

(not the best picture of it; i will try to find a better one later)

 

Whoa!! When you said in your first post that camber was set at the minimum, I thought you meant the min spec (-0.5), not zero.

If I were you, I'd set the camber back to mid spec (-1.0) with toe set at zero and see what that does....

 

Yes, on all 9 cars I've had ranging from Honda/Acura, MB, and BMW, they've all toed out with increased negative camber. None of the cars were ever camber corrected to factory specs but I've always had the alignment shop compensate by slightly toeing in and tire wear has never been a problem. My current S2000 runs -2.5 in the rear and the current set of tires have lasted over 20k miles with no rotation (staggered). Just remember the car will handle/react a little differently with the increased toe-in but nothing dramatic.