J-Power camber kit review
04-03-2015, 03:08 PM
#201
Three Wheelin'
Suppose it's possible they never hear back from customers once replacements are sent out under warranty, since most people won't bother / see it as a waste of time, but to drive warranty costs down they might've improved the bushings, or could just be newer / better materials were made available to them by their supplier at same cost, so free product "improvement" etc who knows...could also be bs, but if they do sell that many they should have an interest for product performance, reliability and customer satisfaction. Sad news is it seems they're kinda failing at it...
And by "they" I mean Ingalls. This isn't the vendors fault (xlr8, Heeltoe, etc). Aim your guns at the right people. Keep in mind a ~1% warranty claim rate is perfectly normal, so that's what 25 people out of 2500 annual sales. Unless they get more complaints than that, everything is going to look just fine from their point of view. Not taking sides here, just saying this is how it works...bitch directly to Ingalls, that's what I would do.
And by "they" I mean Ingalls. This isn't the vendors fault (xlr8, Heeltoe, etc). Aim your guns at the right people. Keep in mind a ~1% warranty claim rate is perfectly normal, so that's what 25 people out of 2500 annual sales. Unless they get more complaints than that, everything is going to look just fine from their point of view. Not taking sides here, just saying this is how it works...bitch directly to Ingalls, that's what I would do.
Last edited by FamilyGuy; 04-03-2015 at 03:13 PM.
04-03-2015, 03:47 PM
#202
I know someone who spoke to them, bushings were never updated per Ingalls.
04-03-2015, 06:43 PM
#203
Burning Brakes
I'm going to take one last picture of the arms' 3 year usage aftermath right before I send them off tomorrow.
You guys are right about one thing, most consumers won't complain, just stick with them or dump them for something else since they cost just $120 ~ $160. But the results can be disastrous because of how fast the rear tires wear abnormally. I felt that this had to get out there somehow or it will never be fixed.
04-06-2015, 08:23 AM
#204
All spherical will make things super tight. You are replacing rubber with metal. Going from some give to no give. I would only recommend for track not street. Our cars come from factory with one spherical bearing on the outside lower rear arm. When I put my setup together i used a spherical bearing not only on that arm but on the outside lower center arm as well. Rubber bushings on both inner arm mount points. Car feels great this way. Tightened thing up a bit more and combined with progress rear sway bar set to track it's perfect for me. Hope that helps.
04-06-2015, 05:41 PM
#205
Suppose it's possible they never hear back from customers once replacements are sent out under warranty, since most people won't bother / see it as a waste of time, but to drive warranty costs down they might've improved the bushings, or could just be newer / better materials were made available to them by their supplier at same cost, so free product "improvement" etc who knows...could also be bs, but if they do sell that many they should have an interest for product performance, reliability and customer satisfaction. Sad news is it seems they're kinda failing at it...
And by "they" I mean Ingalls. This isn't the vendors fault (xlr8, Heeltoe, etc). Aim your guns at the right people. Keep in mind a ~1% warranty claim rate is perfectly normal, so that's what 25 people out of 2500 annual sales. Unless they get more complaints than that, everything is going to look just fine from their point of view. Not taking sides here, just saying this is how it works...bitch directly to Ingalls, that's what I would do.
And by "they" I mean Ingalls. This isn't the vendors fault (xlr8, Heeltoe, etc). Aim your guns at the right people. Keep in mind a ~1% warranty claim rate is perfectly normal, so that's what 25 people out of 2500 annual sales. Unless they get more complaints than that, everything is going to look just fine from their point of view. Not taking sides here, just saying this is how it works...bitch directly to Ingalls, that's what I would do.
How many bushings would you expect for them to send out for free without ever getting defective ones back? They will stop at some point because paying for new ones which could then be refunded upon return would definitely incentivise someone not to make a false warranty claim (that happens, too).
I don't think Ingalls is failing at anything here besides being in touch with a few people making a lot of noise. I called them last week to talk about some alternative options. We discussed attempting to make some new ends for folks with higher performance demands. This seems like it prompted the call to t-rd.
There is a lot going on here that will definitely discredit you and your claims. "they are in CO so they must be high." "ok sure, so I got nailed with some crappy bushings handed over through the backdoor in China somewhere.", "'first time someone will send the arms back.'" But I doubt that's the case."
What reason does Ingalls or anyone else here have to lie to you guys? And, why the snide remarks? Seriously...who would want to help sarcastic, uncooperative, un-trusting people? (In my mind: Oh wait, I forgot. This is a web forum. You aren't bad people but your bold side comes out behind a computer keyboard. Of course you would not SAY these things to people. It's just "funny" online.)
I appreciate that t-rd is sending his arms in, though. I am pretty sure we've made offers to exchange in the past here but whatever it takes.
04-06-2015, 06:14 PM
#206
Race Director
Based on our discussions with Ingalls this seems like what is going on. We have sent out a few replacements ourselves but never get anything back. Ingalls echoed this problem to us numerous times.
How many bushings would you expect for them to send out for free without ever getting defective ones back? They will stop at some point because paying for new ones which could then be refunded upon return would definitely incentivise someone not to make a false warranty claim (that happens, too).
I don't think Ingalls is failing at anything here besides being in touch with a few people making a lot of noise. I called them last week to talk about some alternative options. We discussed attempting to make some new ends for folks with higher performance demands. This seems like it prompted the call to t-rd.
There is a lot going on here that will definitely discredit you and your claims. "they are in CO so they must be high." "ok sure, so I got nailed with some crappy bushings handed over through the backdoor in China somewhere.", "'first time someone will send the arms back.'" But I doubt that's the case."
What reason does Ingalls or anyone else here have to lie to you guys? And, why the snide remarks? Seriously...who would want to help sarcastic, uncooperative, un-trusting people? (In my mind: Oh wait, I forgot. This is a web forum. You aren't bad people but your bold side comes out behind a computer keyboard. Of course you would not SAY these things to people. It's just "funny" online.)
I appreciate that t-rd is sending his arms in, though. I am pretty sure we've made offers to exchange in the past here but whatever it takes.
How many bushings would you expect for them to send out for free without ever getting defective ones back? They will stop at some point because paying for new ones which could then be refunded upon return would definitely incentivise someone not to make a false warranty claim (that happens, too).
I don't think Ingalls is failing at anything here besides being in touch with a few people making a lot of noise. I called them last week to talk about some alternative options. We discussed attempting to make some new ends for folks with higher performance demands. This seems like it prompted the call to t-rd.
There is a lot going on here that will definitely discredit you and your claims. "they are in CO so they must be high." "ok sure, so I got nailed with some crappy bushings handed over through the backdoor in China somewhere.", "'first time someone will send the arms back.'" But I doubt that's the case."
What reason does Ingalls or anyone else here have to lie to you guys? And, why the snide remarks? Seriously...who would want to help sarcastic, uncooperative, un-trusting people? (In my mind: Oh wait, I forgot. This is a web forum. You aren't bad people but your bold side comes out behind a computer keyboard. Of course you would not SAY these things to people. It's just "funny" online.)
I appreciate that t-rd is sending his arms in, though. I am pretty sure we've made offers to exchange in the past here but whatever it takes.
04-07-2015, 03:21 AM
#207
Based on our discussions with Ingalls this seems like what is going on. We have sent out a few replacements ourselves but never get anything back. Ingalls echoed this problem to us numerous times.
How many bushings would you expect for them to send out for free without ever getting defective ones back? They will stop at some point because paying for new ones which could then be refunded upon return would definitely incentivise someone not to make a false warranty claim (that happens, too).
I don't think Ingalls is failing at anything here besides being in touch with a few people making a lot of noise. I called them last week to talk about some alternative options. We discussed attempting to make some new ends for folks with higher performance demands. This seems like it prompted the call to t-rd.
There is a lot going on here that will definitely discredit you and your claims. "they are in CO so they must be high." "ok sure, so I got nailed with some crappy bushings handed over through the backdoor in China somewhere.", "'first time someone will send the arms back.'" But I doubt that's the case."
What reason does Ingalls or anyone else here have to lie to you guys? And, why the snide remarks? Seriously...who would want to help sarcastic, uncooperative, un-trusting people? (In my mind: Oh wait, I forgot. This is a web forum. You aren't bad people but your bold side comes out behind a computer keyboard. Of course you would not SAY these things to people. It's just "funny" online.)
I appreciate that t-rd is sending his arms in, though. I am pretty sure we've made offers to exchange in the past here but whatever it takes.
How many bushings would you expect for them to send out for free without ever getting defective ones back? They will stop at some point because paying for new ones which could then be refunded upon return would definitely incentivise someone not to make a false warranty claim (that happens, too).
I don't think Ingalls is failing at anything here besides being in touch with a few people making a lot of noise. I called them last week to talk about some alternative options. We discussed attempting to make some new ends for folks with higher performance demands. This seems like it prompted the call to t-rd.
There is a lot going on here that will definitely discredit you and your claims. "they are in CO so they must be high." "ok sure, so I got nailed with some crappy bushings handed over through the backdoor in China somewhere.", "'first time someone will send the arms back.'" But I doubt that's the case."
What reason does Ingalls or anyone else here have to lie to you guys? And, why the snide remarks? Seriously...who would want to help sarcastic, uncooperative, un-trusting people? (In my mind: Oh wait, I forgot. This is a web forum. You aren't bad people but your bold side comes out behind a computer keyboard. Of course you would not SAY these things to people. It's just "funny" online.)
I appreciate that t-rd is sending his arms in, though. I am pretty sure we've made offers to exchange in the past here but whatever it takes.
Embrace this, make things right. You are the specialist supporting this community, right?
Now that I'm (I'm sure there are plenty others) out of a boat load of money, time and researched this myself, it's getting pretty clear what the deal is here. The kit sucks and you installed them wrong which didn't help the situation from the start. The only difference on subsequent, replacement installations, they were installed completely textbook style, but they still failed.
I remember you saying several things which turned out to be shoddy work on your part after some research. You were called out on your work habits, but you downplayed the concern of your work and said "I've done a bunch of these this way, no one has ever had a problem. " Nice.
Other specialist that work on these cars use a torque wrench and don't tighten these bushings while the car is in the air-you do and you can't escape that. Apparently, the car has to be on the ground when tightening any rubber type bushings from what I'm told by other techs and suspension engineers, or you accelerate wear on the bushings. I was taught that plastic or poly bushings have no friction and don't place load on the bushings, the can be tightened at any time, even in the air.
I wish I knew what you were doing when you first installed them. Later installs took 5 minutes longer but were accompanied by a torque wrench and the car on it's own weight, the way you should operate as a specialist.
Don't get bent out of shape, just do the right thing, support us and get Ingalls on-board to reimburse folks and clean this mess up. The $$$$ flushed down the toilet isn't a good feeling, put yourself in the shoes of the consumer here.
04-07-2015, 02:41 PM
#208
3GTLCHICK,
I was sure my post wasn't going to win me any popularity, but I feel I had to say it. People can get very vocal about this stuff and feel like their best outlet is a message forum. Great for getting other torches lit...can be good for collaboration...but not very good when you need customer service.
The kit doesn't suck. You might have had a sucky experience. Maybe there were some that were distributed that has a quality problem. Maybe they are not for everyone. But none of that means the kit sucks. It means you needed additional support, and as far as I can recall none was ever sought from me in your case. All the research in the world was going to be a complete waste of time compared to a customer calling a distributor or manufacturer railing them that the part caused excessive tire wear and you to need to replace them prematurely. Telling me now, not to us personally, what the actual problem might have been years ago is not helpful. I don't even know who you are thanks to the glorious ability to complain anonymously the forums provide.
Shoddy work...
This is the very first time, EVER, anyone has accused me of shoddy work. I have been working on cars long enough, and done enough right in front of people, just as I allegedly had for you, and have received nothing but praise for my work. There is nothing wrong with how I installed your parts. Otherwise, I would have expected to hear about it somewhere closer to the time I actually performed the job. The burden is on you to refute a decade or more installing suspension kits for literally hundreds of happy customers. Show me what I did wrong, and don't tell me some bullshit about tightening bolts with a torque wrench and where the wheels should be when I do it. I have enough experience to know when and how to do my work, and when to go to the book.
You might think you know how to do this work, but I am afraid you are mistaken. There are more that one way to perform these jobs, and I am doing perfectly well.
Please don't insult my integrity and then tell me not to get bent out of shape. I am doing what I can with what I have available to me. Every couple months someone gets in here and bitches and we approach the topic with Ingalls. Every time the conversation is the same. We are trying to look at doing something new with the product now, primarily, to appease you...the less-than-1%.
PS. I just rotated my tires last weekend and the rear tire wear seems perfectly even, despite my 2 degrees of negative camber dialed in with the use of an Ingalls camber kit. The car is not twitchy or sketchy in handling department. The front is displaying a little inner wear, mostly because I need an alignment after installing some rigid collar bushings.
nfnsquared,
We already covered the issue with the review and I made myself clear before. I have the review sitting in my system still. There is no way I am going to allow a review like that on my website without there being some back up or opportunity to come to resolution with the part. Bad reviews on parts are an insight into customer response. Unlike Amazon, I actually CARE if a part is rated poorly, and want to resolve it. Not all these comments can be taken at face value.
We never got the opportunity to support you, resolve the issue, or make things right. Unfortunately for you, I moderate the reviews that come in, and only ones that we can honestly validate are put online. Without direct contact and an inability to support you, I won't allow negative reviews that are unsubstantiated.
Thanks for bringing it up again though, and proving me consistently correct that this thread's general gripings continue to be unsupported in the eyes of your suppliers.
I was sure my post wasn't going to win me any popularity, but I feel I had to say it. People can get very vocal about this stuff and feel like their best outlet is a message forum. Great for getting other torches lit...can be good for collaboration...but not very good when you need customer service.
The kit doesn't suck. You might have had a sucky experience. Maybe there were some that were distributed that has a quality problem. Maybe they are not for everyone. But none of that means the kit sucks. It means you needed additional support, and as far as I can recall none was ever sought from me in your case. All the research in the world was going to be a complete waste of time compared to a customer calling a distributor or manufacturer railing them that the part caused excessive tire wear and you to need to replace them prematurely. Telling me now, not to us personally, what the actual problem might have been years ago is not helpful. I don't even know who you are thanks to the glorious ability to complain anonymously the forums provide.
Shoddy work...
This is the very first time, EVER, anyone has accused me of shoddy work. I have been working on cars long enough, and done enough right in front of people, just as I allegedly had for you, and have received nothing but praise for my work. There is nothing wrong with how I installed your parts. Otherwise, I would have expected to hear about it somewhere closer to the time I actually performed the job. The burden is on you to refute a decade or more installing suspension kits for literally hundreds of happy customers. Show me what I did wrong, and don't tell me some bullshit about tightening bolts with a torque wrench and where the wheels should be when I do it. I have enough experience to know when and how to do my work, and when to go to the book.
You might think you know how to do this work, but I am afraid you are mistaken. There are more that one way to perform these jobs, and I am doing perfectly well.
Please don't insult my integrity and then tell me not to get bent out of shape. I am doing what I can with what I have available to me. Every couple months someone gets in here and bitches and we approach the topic with Ingalls. Every time the conversation is the same. We are trying to look at doing something new with the product now, primarily, to appease you...the less-than-1%.
PS. I just rotated my tires last weekend and the rear tire wear seems perfectly even, despite my 2 degrees of negative camber dialed in with the use of an Ingalls camber kit. The car is not twitchy or sketchy in handling department. The front is displaying a little inner wear, mostly because I need an alignment after installing some rigid collar bushings.
nfnsquared,
We already covered the issue with the review and I made myself clear before. I have the review sitting in my system still. There is no way I am going to allow a review like that on my website without there being some back up or opportunity to come to resolution with the part. Bad reviews on parts are an insight into customer response. Unlike Amazon, I actually CARE if a part is rated poorly, and want to resolve it. Not all these comments can be taken at face value.
We never got the opportunity to support you, resolve the issue, or make things right. Unfortunately for you, I moderate the reviews that come in, and only ones that we can honestly validate are put online. Without direct contact and an inability to support you, I won't allow negative reviews that are unsubstantiated.
Thanks for bringing it up again though, and proving me consistently correct that this thread's general gripings continue to be unsupported in the eyes of your suppliers.
04-07-2015, 03:04 PM
#209
I am not immune to having made mistakes on all kinds of levels. I am not trying to say that I am perfect, or Ingalls is, or any of that. While nobody seems to be clear on the fact that this is a two way street, and nobody is going to be enough of a pain to force change. It takes cooperation.
You've successfully made this no longer about a part, and made it about yourselves ganging up on a part/person/company. I am going to stop following this conversation. There is no longer any value to me being in this thread and continuing to be insulted. It really drives things home for me, though. And I will continue to caution my customers above all, that forum "research" should be taken with a serious grain of salt.
I stand by my work and the products I sell. If you have a complaint, please come to me and I will do my best to make it right, as I always have. I am not going to deal with this pointless, unsubstantive, ranting any longer.
Marcus
949-295-1668
marcus@heeltoeauto.com
You've successfully made this no longer about a part, and made it about yourselves ganging up on a part/person/company. I am going to stop following this conversation. There is no longer any value to me being in this thread and continuing to be insulted. It really drives things home for me, though. And I will continue to caution my customers above all, that forum "research" should be taken with a serious grain of salt.
I stand by my work and the products I sell. If you have a complaint, please come to me and I will do my best to make it right, as I always have. I am not going to deal with this pointless, unsubstantive, ranting any longer.
Marcus
949-295-1668
marcus@heeltoeauto.com
04-07-2015, 10:02 PM
#210
Ok, thanks.
Marcus, you're doing a hell of a job.
I see no serious effort by you to remedy and clean this up. Your lack of enthusiasm and the level of shrugging off the concerns about not using a torque wrench and tightening suspension under load shows how serious you are about going all out to do things correctly.Thanks to you, I was forced to learn what was right and wrong by true professional types. It took years to gather, but was confirmed early on when you were questioned about your work habits, you shrugged and deflected those concerns back then and you do the same today.
I hope the community figures out just how biased and prejudice you are. Honest folks would post a negative review on their site, but respond in a professional, objective manner and clean up any issues, giving the opportunity for folks to draw their own conclusion. You lack transparency, morals and ethics, that's pretty clear now. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt In previous times, but now I know your half-baked answers were mostly bogus and you stepped on yourself with your answers here; that's for sure. When my issues were brought up to you, you never followed up and calls had to be made to you on many occasions just to get any response from you. You acted like my concerns weren't important and that your way was the only way. People have a life to live, no time to chase you around, while you decide to deflect serious concerns and let them brew to this conclusion as of today.
I'm done here, this isn't personal, it's just bad business and you've proven who you really are in my opinion. Keep driving that family van of yours, that will definitely keep wear down to nothing on you personal car ingalls install. Change it up and drive it daily... I'm sure you'll understand then what we are all concerned about. Shell out 4 or 5 sets of tires and replacement parts, not to mention constant alignments, you'd quickly feel the pain we've felt.
I will never do business with you again, and hope others shy away from your business and look for someone with better ideals.
Original posting member, I apologize for stepping in your thread and getting all this out, I didn't mean any wrong, I just wanted to get the true trouble that many have experienced out there. A complaint to nhtsa for both Ingalls and heel toe seems reasonable here. We need a list of folks to get a true response and any placement of liability for these issues.
Marcus, you're doing a hell of a job.
I see no serious effort by you to remedy and clean this up. Your lack of enthusiasm and the level of shrugging off the concerns about not using a torque wrench and tightening suspension under load shows how serious you are about going all out to do things correctly.Thanks to you, I was forced to learn what was right and wrong by true professional types. It took years to gather, but was confirmed early on when you were questioned about your work habits, you shrugged and deflected those concerns back then and you do the same today.
I hope the community figures out just how biased and prejudice you are. Honest folks would post a negative review on their site, but respond in a professional, objective manner and clean up any issues, giving the opportunity for folks to draw their own conclusion. You lack transparency, morals and ethics, that's pretty clear now. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt In previous times, but now I know your half-baked answers were mostly bogus and you stepped on yourself with your answers here; that's for sure. When my issues were brought up to you, you never followed up and calls had to be made to you on many occasions just to get any response from you. You acted like my concerns weren't important and that your way was the only way. People have a life to live, no time to chase you around, while you decide to deflect serious concerns and let them brew to this conclusion as of today.
I'm done here, this isn't personal, it's just bad business and you've proven who you really are in my opinion. Keep driving that family van of yours, that will definitely keep wear down to nothing on you personal car ingalls install. Change it up and drive it daily... I'm sure you'll understand then what we are all concerned about. Shell out 4 or 5 sets of tires and replacement parts, not to mention constant alignments, you'd quickly feel the pain we've felt.
I will never do business with you again, and hope others shy away from your business and look for someone with better ideals.
Original posting member, I apologize for stepping in your thread and getting all this out, I didn't mean any wrong, I just wanted to get the true trouble that many have experienced out there. A complaint to nhtsa for both Ingalls and heel toe seems reasonable here. We need a list of folks to get a true response and any placement of liability for these issues.
04-07-2015, 10:12 PM
#211
Jeff
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^ I will do business with heeltoe again after reading this... shouldve did your research , got the SPC kit and called it a day. its not the vendors fault that the ingots kit has its issues
04-09-2015, 12:48 PM
#212
Burning Brakes
Like I've been saying for months. Swap out your Ingalls right now and put SPC on and you'll notice an immediately difference in stiffness in the rear. I cannot say more than that. If you aren't willing try and just keep coming back here defending yourself, then you already failed. You even have a lift and air tools to swap the install in a flash. Why not try it?
My set of Ingalls kit has been shipped back to Ingalls, testing results pending.
04-09-2015, 02:30 PM
#213
Jeff
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here we go with the grammar nazi shit lol, jesus man its the internet not a english examination... i do agree with what you said however.
"I'm sorry, but there were no reviews for long term use of the Ingalls kit like in this thread years ago. We only found out after we used them ourselves"
"I'm sorry, but there were no reviews for long term use of the Ingalls kit like in this thread years ago. We only found out after we used them ourselves"
04-15-2015, 08:28 PM
#215
I know someone who spoke to them, bushings were never updated per Ingalls.
05-14-2015, 03:08 PM
#218
Three Wheelin'
Can we direct some of the feedback above directly to ingalls instead of heeltoe? Might be more productive. Does ingalls allow reviews on their website? I believe Amazon might sell them too, I'm sure reviews in both of those websites will gather more attention than Azine.
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EvilVirus (05-19-2015)
06-25-2015, 05:52 PM
#219
3rd Gear
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Hi, new to the forum. Informative thread, so I'm posting this here, even though my car is a honda...
I have an 11 accord, and I'm looking for the upper spc camber arms, but I don't seem to find them listed at any site.
i have stock suspension, with -1 negative camber on the rear wheels and ugly inside wear on my tires. So some camber adjustment would resolve this for me.
Thanks!
I have an 11 accord, and I'm looking for the upper spc camber arms, but I don't seem to find them listed at any site.
i have stock suspension, with -1 negative camber on the rear wheels and ugly inside wear on my tires. So some camber adjustment would resolve this for me.
Thanks!
06-26-2015, 06:40 AM
#221
Burning Brakes
-1 rear camber is within the stock -1.5 spec. You don't need to install camber arms, you need an alignment to fix the out of spec toe!
06-26-2015, 05:23 PM
#222
3rd Gear
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Hi, Trd, thanks for the response.
The toe is near zero'd out: (+-.03) And the tire is wearing evenly every where else. Tonly numbers that are high, are the rear camber at -1.3 an -1.4. I do recognize that maybe the alignment guys could have been lazy, and they might have pushed on the tire to get the print out in green, but if that didn't happen, the only thing that could be causing inside shoulder wear is the rear camber...
The toe is near zero'd out: (+-.03) And the tire is wearing evenly every where else. Tonly numbers that are high, are the rear camber at -1.3 an -1.4. I do recognize that maybe the alignment guys could have been lazy, and they might have pushed on the tire to get the print out in green, but if that didn't happen, the only thing that could be causing inside shoulder wear is the rear camber...
08-05-2015, 01:43 AM
#224
I am glad that I did my research for a few days and looked up what camber kit to get for the rears!
I installed Tein S Tech springs on my TL last week, went to an alignment shop and I knew that my rear tires were running negative because you could clearly see it and the shop couldn't adjust it with the stock arms so they tried to sell me all the parts for $1000 but I told them no thanks, I'll look for the parts myself and went on my happy way.
I heard about the Ingalls and the SPCs and I was leaning more towards the Ingalls until I read and saw the results of the bushings from it and the majority of the crowd are more satisfied with the upper SPC camber kit and just use the OEM lower toe and camber so that's what I just ordered!
I installed Tein S Tech springs on my TL last week, went to an alignment shop and I knew that my rear tires were running negative because you could clearly see it and the shop couldn't adjust it with the stock arms so they tried to sell me all the parts for $1000 but I told them no thanks, I'll look for the parts myself and went on my happy way.
I heard about the Ingalls and the SPCs and I was leaning more towards the Ingalls until I read and saw the results of the bushings from it and the majority of the crowd are more satisfied with the upper SPC camber kit and just use the OEM lower toe and camber so that's what I just ordered!
03-18-2016, 06:44 PM
#226
Burning Brakes
I am reporting back here after 1.25 years of no alignment, the toe alignment was only slightly off using stock arms and eccentric bolts. I drove 27000 miles within this time, sometimes through really bad roads in Chicago. I did another alignment today because I changed out almost all components of the front end suspension today. I went back to the same shop. I spoke to the owner again and said "hey, you guys fixed my rear end last year by taking out the Ingalls arms and putting in the SPC upper arms". He said "oh yeah!! well, I don't sell Ingalls because the bushings are too soft. I would install them by request, but I do not sell Ingalls because the alignment goes out within minutes of driving."
Well there you go.
Well there you go.
12-06-2016, 08:09 AM
#227
Burning Brakes
I am going to bring this back up to the top to let everyone know that Ingalls Engineering have secretly changed their kit's bushings to the sphericall bushing type. Marcus has not chimed in either. So they are not correct after all, knowing the problem that happened. I am not going to say they are WRONG, but they were INCORRECT with too much up their own head. I have never heard back from Ingalls about the arms I sent in to them, that's more than 2 years ago now. I have not had any issues with SPC upper control arm, nor do I have any rust and it is the second winter so far.
Updated bushing here:
https://www.heeltoeauto.com/camber-k...ng.3872x..html
Updated bushing here:
https://www.heeltoeauto.com/camber-k...ng.3872x..html
03-13-2017, 03:50 PM
#229
Drifting
Does anyone know if thiis s the old style bushing? I don't know what they should look like.. The price is less than half of the other guys. Btw, i dont know why they call it a camber arm too.. maybe because they can also use it as a lower control arm? I have seen lower camber arms but i do not know if i like them. Because it may draw the wheel closer in toward the car rather than pushing the top outward... anyways, lmk. Thanks! Ingalls Engineering 38725 5 Link Camber Toe Lnks | eBay
03-13-2017, 04:14 PM
#230
Burning Brakes
Does anyone know if thiis s the old style bushing? I don't know what they should look like.. The price is less than half of the other guys. Btw, i dont know why they call it a camber arm too.. maybe because they can also use it as a lower control arm? I have seen lower camber arms but i do not know if i like them. Because it may draw the wheel closer in toward the car rather than pushing the top outward... anyways, lmk. Thanks! Ingalls Engineering 38725 5 Link Camber Toe Lnks eBay
03-13-2017, 04:14 PM
#231
Race Director
03-13-2017, 04:26 PM
#232
Drifting
TRD I thought you were promoting the ingalls by making that post directly above saying they have new bushings. And I was comparing heeltoe to the ingalls on ebay.. it's about double. So anyway I don't care which brand is best.. I'm just following what you guys say. So whatever you say is fine with me.. I will check out SPC. I have somehow began to have wear (cupping) on the inside of my rear tires. I know this is toed out. And I only have eibach springs on the rear. So I'm only down about an inch. I can see it has some negative camber, but camber won't cause cupping type wear.. I will see how much I can move the oem arm before I buy. But it may be a good idea to change it anyway at 85k miles. Only guessing the bushings may have play..
03-13-2017, 04:47 PM
#233
Race Director
Yeah, excessive negative camber will exacerbate any out of spec toe. I'll bet your camber is at/beyond -1.9. Use SPC to fix the camber and then do another alignment.
Last edited by nfnsquared; 03-13-2017 at 04:50 PM.
03-13-2017, 04:56 PM
#234
Drifting
OK but ultimately, I need both, correct? I mean cupping wouldn't happen with just a camber issue only.. it has to be toe too, I would think.. even hough camber alone may stop the excessive wear, still for best handling, I think toe would need to be adjusted too.. but I will check the oem toe arms soon.
03-13-2017, 05:14 PM
#235
Race Director
Yeah, OEM toe arms will work fine to adjust toe to spec assuming that camber is back in spec. As long as the eccentric bolts aren't frozen, the shop should not have any problem setting toe to spec using the OEM arms.
03-14-2017, 07:37 AM
#236
Drifting
Why are TL upper camber arms double the price of accord and civic? Will these even work? Supposedly they will not work. I wonder why..
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Red-Rear-Adjustable-Alloy-Camber-Kit-Ball-Joint-Honda-Accord-03-07-TSX-04-08-/351630091153?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253 DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2 526meid%253D7896d90da2ea45e0b0f86554978f7998%2526p id%253D100408%2526rk%253D10%2526rkt%253D25%2526sd% 253D371184224702&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Red-Rear-Adjustable-Alloy-Camber-Kit-Ball-Joint-Honda-Accord-03-07-TSX-04-08-/351630091153?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253 DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2 526meid%253D7896d90da2ea45e0b0f86554978f7998%2526p id%253D100408%2526rk%253D10%2526rkt%253D25%2526sd% 253D371184224702&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460
03-14-2017, 10:28 AM
#237
Drifting
Better link. These look identical to a TL.
Red Rear Adjustable Alloy Camber Kit + Ball Joint Honda Accord 03-07 TSX 04-08 | eBay
Red Rear Adjustable Alloy Camber Kit + Ball Joint Honda Accord 03-07 TSX 04-08 | eBay
03-14-2017, 12:39 PM
#238
Drifting
You know, after thinking about it, when it comes to camber correction on the rear, the choices presently are to swap the upper arm, or swap the lower arm with an adjustable. So, in order to determine which is best to swap, think about this: Since I have all non-adjustable arms, and it's all oem, I think i can judge accurately. If i make the upper arm longer, the toe-out will become worse because the toe correction is done on the rear of the knuckle which will remain stationary. But if we shorten the lower arm, and leave the toe arm and the upper arm the same, this will not only make the tire more vertical, but it will also swivel the knuckle to point more toe-in.
Transversely, If i make the upper arm longer, by pushing out the knuckle, since the toe arm is connected to the rear, then lengthening the upper arm will make it even more toe-out. I know all these arms work together, but given my setup, i think buying an adjustable Lower Arm will solve my issue more efficiently. Plus adjustable lower arms are cheaper I think.
Another way of saying the same thing, if I hold the rear of the knuckle in place with the oem toe arm, and pull in the center of the knuckle with a shorter middle control arm, the knuckle will swivel toward toe-in, which is what I want. But if I push out the knuckle with a longer upper control arm, I may fix the camber isue, but the toe will get worse, and go more toe-out.
Not only is the lower arm cheaper, but kits also more accessible during alignment procedure.
This is all theoretical at the moment since I have not done it
Transversely, If i make the upper arm longer, by pushing out the knuckle, since the toe arm is connected to the rear, then lengthening the upper arm will make it even more toe-out. I know all these arms work together, but given my setup, i think buying an adjustable Lower Arm will solve my issue more efficiently. Plus adjustable lower arms are cheaper I think.
Another way of saying the same thing, if I hold the rear of the knuckle in place with the oem toe arm, and pull in the center of the knuckle with a shorter middle control arm, the knuckle will swivel toward toe-in, which is what I want. But if I push out the knuckle with a longer upper control arm, I may fix the camber isue, but the toe will get worse, and go more toe-out.
Not only is the lower arm cheaper, but kits also more accessible during alignment procedure.
This is all theoretical at the moment since I have not done it
03-14-2017, 12:46 PM
#239
Drifting
Heck, I wouldn't doubt it if people used a lower control arm to adjust the camber problem, 90% of the time you would not need an adjustable rear toe arm, nor an adjustable upper arm...
03-15-2017, 09:36 AM
#240
You know, after thinking about it, when it comes to camber correction on the rear, the choices presently are to swap the upper arm, or swap the lower arm with an adjustable. So, in order to determine which is best to swap, think about this: Since I have all non-adjustable arms, and it's all oem, I think i can judge accurately. If i make the upper arm longer, the toe-out will become worse because the toe correction is done on the rear of the knuckle which will remain stationary. But if we shorten the lower arm, and leave the toe arm and the upper arm the same, this will not only make the tire more vertical, but it will also swivel the knuckle to point more toe-in.
Transversely, If i make the upper arm longer, by pushing out the knuckle, since the toe arm is connected to the rear, then lengthening the upper arm will make it even more toe-out. I know all these arms work together, but given my setup, i think buying an adjustable Lower Arm will solve my issue more efficiently. Plus adjustable lower arms are cheaper I think.
Another way of saying the same thing, if I hold the rear of the knuckle in place with the oem toe arm, and pull in the center of the knuckle with a shorter middle control arm, the knuckle will swivel toward toe-in, which is what I want. But if I push out the knuckle with a longer upper control arm, I may fix the camber isue, but the toe will get worse, and go more toe-out.
Not only is the lower arm cheaper, but kits also more accessible during alignment procedure.
This is all theoretical at the moment since I have not done it
Transversely, If i make the upper arm longer, by pushing out the knuckle, since the toe arm is connected to the rear, then lengthening the upper arm will make it even more toe-out. I know all these arms work together, but given my setup, i think buying an adjustable Lower Arm will solve my issue more efficiently. Plus adjustable lower arms are cheaper I think.
Another way of saying the same thing, if I hold the rear of the knuckle in place with the oem toe arm, and pull in the center of the knuckle with a shorter middle control arm, the knuckle will swivel toward toe-in, which is what I want. But if I push out the knuckle with a longer upper control arm, I may fix the camber isue, but the toe will get worse, and go more toe-out.
Not only is the lower arm cheaper, but kits also more accessible during alignment procedure.
This is all theoretical at the moment since I have not done it
The factory configuration is for the rear toe to go IN (positive) on compression, while camber goes negative.
When you lower the car, camber naturally goes negative. Toe naturally goes positive.
So...lets say you have all factory arms. when you lower the car, you go get a toe alignment. They will rotate the stock toe cam toward the NEGATIVE side to cancel out the natural excess positive toe. I'm not saying they use negative toe numbers...I'm saying they rotate the cam toward negative to get to spec. Yes? yes.
Now lets say you're using an aftermarket means to add positive camber to make your camber angle more straight:
I believe you are right in saying that using an UPPER camber arm adjustment will cause toe to go out (negative).
Using UPPER camber arms is more advantageous in this case.
As it says above...Naturally, toe wants to go toward positive when you lower the car. Camber wants to go negative.
An upper camber arm will cause toe to go toward negative as you adjust camber positive.
So the upper camber arm cancels the natural toe change and leaves a better adjusting delta in your stock toe cam.
To summarize:
Natural effect on angles from lowering:
Camber Neg
Toe Pos
With upper camber arm:
Camber Pos
Toe Neg
The upper arm cancels out the natural toe change to a certain degree.
The upper camber arm is advantageous in a few other ways as well.
One thing to keep in mind is that you are directly adjusting the top of the tyre. So...an upper camber arm will get the tire closer to the fender if you're trying to make the camber more positive. And will move the tyre further from the fender if you're adjusting for negative camber.
Last edited by BROlando; 03-15-2017 at 09:42 AM.