J-Power camber kit review
01-16-2015, 05:51 PM
#121
Lowering 1" resulted in 3 degrees negative? Now I am starting to wonder about the place doing your alignments. a 1" drop should barely put you out of spec in terms of camber. I had a 2.25" drop on my car and was around 3 degrees. What specs were you aligning to, btw? HFP Spec?
These settings are indicated based on the fact that the car cannot be aligned for camber once lowered, so 2.2 degrees (give or take) is the spec you should have been at and according to Honda that is where it should have stayed. You really should never have needed a camber kit.
Changing toe changes camber and vice versa regardless of what method of changing you are adjusting. Granted the toe will change MORE when adjusting the Ingalls kit, but that is because people think one arm is a "camber arm" and one arm is a "toe arm". One are IS the toe control arm, but the two TOGETHER adjust camber. Adjusting just one arm at the bottom makes things VERY wonky, and would corroborate what "people" say to you, forum people and techs alike.
In my mind, someone was getting new alignment checks and adjustments on a frequent basis because you were continually chasing the toe in one direction then you would have run out of threads before too long and the bushings would have huge oval holes on them. Did I mis-read the claim or is the toe going positive sometimes and negative other times?
The last thing I would say is that I am not surprised at all that a shop offering lifetime alignments is making adjustments, simply because they want you to think you need to keep coming back so they can get a brake job or tires in there for you somewhere. Nor do I believe that you might take a car in numerous times and see slightly different specs from one time to the next. That does not necessarily mean there is a problem.
Tim, thanks for having called us and posting that.
These settings are indicated based on the fact that the car cannot be aligned for camber once lowered, so 2.2 degrees (give or take) is the spec you should have been at and according to Honda that is where it should have stayed. You really should never have needed a camber kit.
Changing toe changes camber and vice versa regardless of what method of changing you are adjusting. Granted the toe will change MORE when adjusting the Ingalls kit, but that is because people think one arm is a "camber arm" and one arm is a "toe arm". One are IS the toe control arm, but the two TOGETHER adjust camber. Adjusting just one arm at the bottom makes things VERY wonky, and would corroborate what "people" say to you, forum people and techs alike.
In my mind, someone was getting new alignment checks and adjustments on a frequent basis because you were continually chasing the toe in one direction then you would have run out of threads before too long and the bushings would have huge oval holes on them. Did I mis-read the claim or is the toe going positive sometimes and negative other times?
The last thing I would say is that I am not surprised at all that a shop offering lifetime alignments is making adjustments, simply because they want you to think you need to keep coming back so they can get a brake job or tires in there for you somewhere. Nor do I believe that you might take a car in numerous times and see slightly different specs from one time to the next. That does not necessarily mean there is a problem.
Tim, thanks for having called us and posting that.
01-16-2015, 06:47 PM
#122
Burning Brakes
The first very alignment I did, I went to Honda. This was when the suspension was completely stock. That yielded -1.5 degree of camber, which is out of spec according to your sheet with a maximum of -1.3 degree. The toe was barely out, after 4 years of driving. The stock suspension held well, just too soft. Then I got the HFP kit, which was meant for the coupe, but proven to work on the Sedan, just need rear camber kit. If you look at a 7th gen Accord, the rear of the coupe looks very jacked up compared to a sedan. I don't know if Honda did this on purpose to accommodate for the sport suspension, but it looked like the coupe started out with less negative camber. I can attest to the fact that there was A LOT of negative camber right after the HFP suspension install. I should have taken a picture for you. The alignment job done after the drop was at NTB, where one dude knew his stuff and did it right. I knew he did right because on the drive home without alignment, the car wandered like crazy. The day after the alignment, I did a high speed run at 90mph with hands off the steering wheel and it was still going straight.
Fast forward another year, a new guy started working at NTB. I didn't do the "lifetime alignment" thing. I went back for the alignment and he totally f* it up. I knew because I had to tilt the steering wheel to the left to go straight, and the rear left side had a more negative camber than the rear right side. I had to go to Honda to fix it. Now I only go to Honda for alignment jobs. The last 2 times, both rear ends had toe out. Again, I rarely carry passengers. I don't have a family, single guy.
Again, just throwing the facts out there.
Fast forward another year, a new guy started working at NTB. I didn't do the "lifetime alignment" thing. I went back for the alignment and he totally f* it up. I knew because I had to tilt the steering wheel to the left to go straight, and the rear left side had a more negative camber than the rear right side. I had to go to Honda to fix it. Now I only go to Honda for alignment jobs. The last 2 times, both rear ends had toe out. Again, I rarely carry passengers. I don't have a family, single guy.
Again, just throwing the facts out there.
01-23-2015, 12:43 PM
#126
Three Wheelin'
Hey I got dibs on the other set don't even!! 
The following users liked this post:
MrHeeltoe (01-23-2015)
01-23-2015, 01:37 PM
#128
Three Wheelin'
Wow they look beefy 
Lookin forward to your feedback.
Lookin forward to your feedback.
01-23-2015, 06:23 PM
#129
Burning Brakes
Just went to a shop and swapped back the 2 rear lower arms, where the Ingalls arms went. Installed the new beefy SPC arms, and got an alignment done. The toe settings are adjusted to stock spec front and rear, and camber is set at -1.3 degree, within spec. The minute I drove out of the shop, after hitting the first bump, I noticed how much more stiffer it is compared to with the Ingalls arms installed!! Welcome back, Honda suspension! Take note that the 2 lower OEM arms were already used for 98000 miles for 4 years prior with no visible wear in the spherical bushings or any serious rust on the arms! The only thing new in this whole mix is the SPC upper camber adjustable control arm. When I corner, that slight wobble is gone, and lane changing is noticeably stiffer with a bit less body sway. Car also squats less with medium to hard launch.
I will take pictures after I wash up the Ingalls arms tomorrow and post them here. I already see noticeable bushing deformation with the naked eyes. The bushings aren't in that "donut" state, but I can tell they are deformed.
Finally, I have to add that I talked to the shop owner in person, who is a hardcore engine swap, suspension modding, turbo... all kinds of grease monkey car guy. He told me they have lots of issues with TL guys coming into his shop getting alignment done all the time. He noted that the bushings are just not good on the Ingalls arms.
I will take pictures after I wash up the Ingalls arms tomorrow and post them here. I already see noticeable bushing deformation with the naked eyes. The bushings aren't in that "donut" state, but I can tell they are deformed.
Finally, I have to add that I talked to the shop owner in person, who is a hardcore engine swap, suspension modding, turbo... all kinds of grease monkey car guy. He told me they have lots of issues with TL guys coming into his shop getting alignment done all the time. He noted that the bushings are just not good on the Ingalls arms.
01-23-2015, 08:41 PM
#130
Race Director
^^^^ Ah yes.... Another satisfied SPC customer
01-24-2015, 01:00 PM
#131
Three Wheelin'
cfv22, after a lot of reading, I'm gonna give the SPC rear camber kit a try. If my toe is good Heeltoe can grab that other kit from you. Let me know when you're ready to sell and I'll tell you whether or not I need them
01-24-2015, 08:43 PM
#132
Race Director
The following users liked this post:
FamilyGuy (01-24-2015)
01-24-2015, 10:47 PM
#133
I'm absolutely sure the SPC arm will be great and give you back the "stock" feel... if that's what you are going for. Will absolutely be step up from ingalls for sure... I personally wanted tighter/better than stock.. hence the hardrace. To each his own...peace.
HardRace Harden Rubber Bushing
HardRace Harden Rubber Bushing
- Hardness is 150% higher than OE rubber bushings
- Solid steering response and driving suspension feel
- Resist side inclined while cornering at high speed maneuvers
- Made with high strength and anti-crack rubber material
- Viscosity between rubber and metal is about 2000kgs
01-25-2015, 08:02 AM
#134
Burning Brakes
The lower front adjustable control arm will allow for greater camber adjustment and is needed if you lower more than 2". If you stay above that, you can stick with SPC upper control arm. The spherical bushings absolutely need to be there, so hard race is a better is a way choice if you want to go very low and keep the alignment in check, especially the toe.
01-25-2015, 08:29 AM
#135
Race Director
The lower front adjustable control arm will allow for greater camber adjustment and is needed if you lower more than 2". If you stay above that, you can stick with SPC upper control arm. The spherical bushings absolutely need to be there, so hard race is a better is a way choice if you want to go very low and keep the alignment in check, especially the toe.
So, if I understand that right, if lowering a car took the camber to -5 degrees, the SPC arms could still bring it back into spec (back to -1)?
If that's correct, then I find it hard to believe that the SPC arms wouldn't work for any possible lowering scheme in the TL...
01-25-2015, 10:42 AM
#136
Three Wheelin'
Not planning to go lower than 2". We'll see how it all works out soon.
01-25-2015, 11:02 AM
#137
Burning Brakes
I didn't see any specs on the hardrace as far as camber adjustment goes. The SPC will give up to +4 degrees of camber adjustment.
So, if I understand that right, if lowering a car took the camber to -5 degrees, the SPC arms could still bring it back into spec (back to -1)?
If that's correct, then I find it hard to believe that the SPC arms wouldn't work for any possible lowering scheme in the TL...
So, if I understand that right, if lowering a car took the camber to -5 degrees, the SPC arms could still bring it back into spec (back to -1)?
If that's correct, then I find it hard to believe that the SPC arms wouldn't work for any possible lowering scheme in the TL...
I will be doing another alignment re-check in 6 months at Honda, and they'll surely let me know if the toe is still in spec. I'm very positive the issue has been fixed with the SPC arms.
Last edited by t-rd; 01-25-2015 at 11:04 AM.
01-25-2015, 12:35 PM
#138
Race Director
^^^ yep, I think we're saying the same thing: really no reason why the SPC camber arms can't handle any type of camber resulting from a drop that would be expected to be installed on a TL
01-25-2015, 05:46 PM
#139
Burning Brakes
Long awaited pictures. The shorter arm is the lower front arm, the longer arm is the lower rear arm where the eccentric bolt for OEM toe adjustment goes. I sprayed them down with brake clean.
If you happen to look under the car at your existing OEM arms, they don't look anything like these with paint flaked off in big pieces as I stated before. The white is salt from a recent snow storm in Chicago, so ignore that, but the rest still looks bad. Look closely at some of the close bushing pictures carefully and you'll see how it's up and down at different places. One of the bushings seem to have lifted away from its "socket".
I can press down on the bushings with my fingers, that's how soft they are. Once again, purchased in Judy of 2011, used for 3 years and 6 months.
If you happen to look under the car at your existing OEM arms, they don't look anything like these with paint flaked off in big pieces as I stated before. The white is salt from a recent snow storm in Chicago, so ignore that, but the rest still looks bad. Look closely at some of the close bushing pictures carefully and you'll see how it's up and down at different places. One of the bushings seem to have lifted away from its "socket".
I can press down on the bushings with my fingers, that's how soft they are. Once again, purchased in Judy of 2011, used for 3 years and 6 months.
01-26-2015, 08:50 AM
#140
Three Wheelin'
^^
What are we looking at? Ingals or OEM units?
What are we looking at? Ingals or OEM units?
The following users liked this post:
FamilyGuy (01-26-2015)
01-26-2015, 09:54 AM
#142
Burning Brakes
Both the hard race and SPC arms have coating like that on the OEM arms.
I'm also happy to report that I've noticed improved handling while cornering, the tail is "following" through much better than with Ingalls arms.
I'm also happy to report that I've noticed improved handling while cornering, the tail is "following" through much better than with Ingalls arms.
01-26-2015, 11:52 AM
#143
If one really wants to lower the whole car and still have that tasty Honda rear suspension there would be lower "roll center adapter" ball joints but I don't think anybody would actually.... anyway Just start with SPC and if (if ever) you still have camber problem then start a new thread Oh btw, almost 2 years with SPC camber arm, still going strong with numerous potholes and 60mph highway ramp P-turns. -0.8 camber all around, tires wearing evenly and exceeded 20k mileage warranty -.- It's Cooper RS3-S summer tire so I'd think if there was any alignment issue starting, the tire would show it very early and noticable while driving.
01-26-2015, 07:45 PM
#144
The feedback here has been good. I have a little heartburn over the following:
1) Those Ingalls arms are NOT showing typical wear. It is it is likely that whatever is being used in your area for de-icing (it can't be just salt the way the finish was attacked, and not all localities use the same stuff) is not playing well with the metallurgy of the Ingalls parts. While some corrosion is to be expected in areas with de-icing I think what tr-d is showing us is that he has put these arms to an ultimate test.
2) The attack on the metal is evidencing that there was advanced wear on the rubber as well. It seems plausible that the bushings would wear and deteriorate at an advanced rate just as the metal bits would. Therefore it would not surprising that these arms were numbing the feel. Again, this has been reported by others, but I have been polling my customers since this thread has been going and I am getting considerably more positive than negative feedback.
3) He has the old bushings, not the new ones.
Any product when stressed enough is going to show a weakness. I would caution people from judging Ingalls arms based on this account.
ALL THAT SAID, we KNOW that the SPC arms have been successful parts for Acura drivers and many people like and buy them. We've sold many sets over the years because of that fact. Most of the people buying them are lowering their cars a lot as well. And many of those are installing them concurrently with Ingalls kits! We can vouch for those parts, and would stand behind them just as much as the Ingalls.
In the face of use and abuse, customers' experiences will vary. Obviously, the Ingalls has advantages that the SPC cannot match (it, we feel, is easier to deal with on install and adjustment due to easy access, and offers additional toe adjustment) and the SPC offers advantages over the Ingalls (single adjustment, and part is out of the way of the elements).
We've seen both parts fail, and we've known both companies to support their product through warranty.
One last cautionary note. If you are buying either kit AVOID EBAY. I spoke with reps at both companies in the last week, and if you have any warranty concerns you have a high risk of not getting support if you bought from an ebay seller.Best bet is to deal with an authorized reseller (like you-know-who!).
PS: I have now emailed Hardrace twice with no reply...I've resorted to FB nastygram. This part looks great and we want to carry it for AZ. But if the service is poor that is going to be a challenge...and possibly an omen.
1) Those Ingalls arms are NOT showing typical wear. It is it is likely that whatever is being used in your area for de-icing (it can't be just salt the way the finish was attacked, and not all localities use the same stuff) is not playing well with the metallurgy of the Ingalls parts. While some corrosion is to be expected in areas with de-icing I think what tr-d is showing us is that he has put these arms to an ultimate test.
2) The attack on the metal is evidencing that there was advanced wear on the rubber as well. It seems plausible that the bushings would wear and deteriorate at an advanced rate just as the metal bits would. Therefore it would not surprising that these arms were numbing the feel. Again, this has been reported by others, but I have been polling my customers since this thread has been going and I am getting considerably more positive than negative feedback.
3) He has the old bushings, not the new ones.
Any product when stressed enough is going to show a weakness. I would caution people from judging Ingalls arms based on this account.
ALL THAT SAID, we KNOW that the SPC arms have been successful parts for Acura drivers and many people like and buy them. We've sold many sets over the years because of that fact. Most of the people buying them are lowering their cars a lot as well. And many of those are installing them concurrently with Ingalls kits! We can vouch for those parts, and would stand behind them just as much as the Ingalls.
In the face of use and abuse, customers' experiences will vary. Obviously, the Ingalls has advantages that the SPC cannot match (it, we feel, is easier to deal with on install and adjustment due to easy access, and offers additional toe adjustment) and the SPC offers advantages over the Ingalls (single adjustment, and part is out of the way of the elements).
We've seen both parts fail, and we've known both companies to support their product through warranty.
One last cautionary note. If you are buying either kit AVOID EBAY. I spoke with reps at both companies in the last week, and if you have any warranty concerns you have a high risk of not getting support if you bought from an ebay seller.Best bet is to deal with an authorized reseller (like you-know-who!).
PS: I have now emailed Hardrace twice with no reply...I've resorted to FB nastygram. This part looks great and we want to carry it for AZ. But if the service is poor that is going to be a challenge...and possibly an omen.
01-27-2015, 12:03 AM
#145
Race Director
Have you see any SPC failures since the new boots were instituted? (e.g. the new black accordian boot, not the old red boot).
01-27-2015, 12:43 AM
#146
Okay.. I digged through my email and found the tickets I submitted after noticing issues with Ingalls kit as I have never shared my full journey of finally settling happily with SPC camber kit. I do have my own thread about that, but since this is getting more views and replies I'll just share it here, and link my thread
CLICKABLE : https://acurazine.com/forums/tires-w...er-kit-885207/
Also to note my toe was set at exactly 0.00 all around which makes my car a lot more prone to drifting off to the side, caused by road crown or pavement irregularities. But for me it's better than constantly rubbing tires toward each other or one another (OEM, toe-in) so I choose to do it that way and once you get used to it, the steering jerkiness doesn't bother you much. I come from 02 Hyundai Tiburon 2.0L 4banger making 380hp and 360lb ft of torque so you could imagine how miniscule it feels compared to the massive torque steer. (GT28..something RS... @ 25psi I forget.)
If you didn't specifically told your alignment tech you want 0.00 toe, they will set it to toe-in, or however cars specify these days to have constant tension from each side so the road affect your steering less violently. Therefore YMMV, but rubber is rubber and steel is steel. (But steel reinforced rubb... *punches* Get out.)
These are from 2013.
TICKET
Hi. Mr. Heeltoe.
I truly appreciate your customer care with my order finished a couple weeks ago
However, I seem to have a slight problem with ingall's rear camber kit.
I aligned the car so that front cambers are -0.4, and rears at -0.9 and 0.00 toe at all corners.
but after a few days of driving, the steering keeps going off center.
I've been back to where i got the alignment and noticed the rear toe is not staying at where i saw it last time.
I checked the work myself with the tech under my car, twice(it's only a mile away from where i live so i dropped by as soon as noticed the problem)
camber is good, but toe changes both left and right rear corners.
I posted the question in acurazine forums and one member replied that the bushing was "moving" and I marked my bushing with a sharpie and it did move (is this normal? i don't know. but the toe change i know isn't normal)
I just installed it last tuesday so maybe I should be putting a couple hundred more miles. but when is the deadline for me to get the problematic(if there is) replaced under warranty??
many thanks
END TICKET
REPLY
Hi there, sorry you are having trouble!
First I would ask how you know the toe is moving. Is this verified on an alignment machine?
Also, I am not sure what area has the sharpie mark and what this is showing. Do you have an image to share? Please attach some in reply to this email, MAKE SURE THE IMAGES ARE SMALLER THAN 1 MB EACH. This is important, as if they are 1 Mb or larger I will not get them.
END REPLY
TICKET
okay here's the track of events.
april 1st : YAY UPS TRUCK WAS HERE
april 2nd : installed camber kit.
3rd : got alignment
3rd afternoon : steering felt off center, just told myself it's the road concave
5th : it was weird, so i went back to the same shop with same tech, and car was put on the machine and the hunter red light blinking monster found that both toe were out slightly. left side was worse. ( don't recall the EXACT numbers but it was OUT 0.06 on one side)
re-aligned, for free
7th : steering went off center, same direction, again.
9th : went to get an alignment. machine found the toe was off again. but less. re-aligned, for free.
and then,,,,, yesterday i noticed the steering is not centered toward the same direction, but to lesser degree. Thought I'd find out if I'm eligible for ingalls warranty replacement before i go bug the alignment shop again :P
rain eased a bit, crawled under car, can't see sharpie marks -_-;; i'm sorry.
anyway .thank you for your timely response.
END TICKET
TICKET
Mr. Heeltoe.
I've booked another alignment appointment tomorrow the Tuesday,
I will share my findings with you once I get back.
just an update.
END TICKET
A little story,
The sharpie mark I'm talking about, I read about Ingalls bushing donut issues before I bought it and I don't recall which issue I needed support with (as mentioned in my original ticket), but I certainly did not have issue with buying things online so... taking a wild guess, I think I asked to be sure it was the updated "hardened" bushing. (I really don't remember, but I don't see if there's anything else I'd ask about camber kit.)
REPLY
I did not see any photo in case you did attach one. We really are not sure of any situation which would cause the alignment to "move" on its own...I cannot see how the Ingalls part could cause this. We'll see if we can come up with an explanation but what marks you indicated will be helpful to see.
END REPLY
TICKET
I didn't get the pic of the marks because.... they were water markers and it rained and i drove.....
anyway. the alignment feels stable for now. if the issue occurs again i'll use this ticket if it's open. or send you a new email.
the tech made sure toe cam bolt was tight, and suspected the bushing deforming under load (driving on one side of concave road for a long time) and temporarily being locked in that position kinda like tire flat spotting overnight......
i don't know it's not there so I'll be driving. but i'll keep an eye on it.
Thanks.
END TICKET
REPLY
If the bushing deformed under dyamnic load then it should normalize when the load goes away. And if it deforms under static load then the alignment should compensate for that. At the end of the day if there is a problem with the bushing it should appear obvious. These are not historically problematic parts and we definitely would like to learn more if your issue continues.
END REPLY
Well, they are historically problematic now. Also now that I think back, it could have appeared obvious while dynamically deforming but it was just that nobody was sticking their head under the rear bumper while my car was moving
The dynamic load part is what I hate. And what other people probably dislikes in Ingalls kit. I was hoping for "the bushing shouldn't deflect that much". Spherical bearings don't deform at all, on top of the fact that OEM rubber was much harder than the one installed in Ingalls. I think I made sure I was getting the updated one because I've been reading about the very first Ingalls bushing donut issue on the forum prior to making purchase.
So I started a thread, and then while anxiously refreshing the page for possible solutions, angry me, being bitter on the internet. It's from the linked thread on top of this post.
^ Okay I admit I was talking like a dick in the last quoted message, but you can't take your words back sooo here it is.
But I am not satisfied with the answer. How are 2 arms per side better than 1 arm? I thought it sounded like "2 x 5 dollar bills are better than 1 x 20 dollar bill"
I got a little side-tracked here but I wanted to point out that no one was able to give me a technical advantage of Ingalls over SPC, when I specifically asked for a recommendation for my car, not lowered and not planning to lower more than 1" if at all.
Then, I was thinking hmmm,
I was told by my friend who does the alignment kit on the Ingalls one, you "CAN" just install camber arm and leave the OEM toe control arm on there.
I've NEVER tried it because I haven't had your problem with my Ingalls kit. *knock on wood*
I say give it a shot and come back and inform us if it worked or not.
Since a member suggested contacting Ingalls directly and I knew my warranty was running out (60 days??) so I decided to email Ingalls and ask the question above too. (I think this is where I figured out OEM toe arm has STEEL bearing instead of rubber.)
INQUIRY
Hi, I purchased 2 sets of the rear camber kit from your authorized retailer heeltoe automotive. and I've been to 3 different alignment sessions and the toe keeps changing. today I could even feel the rear toe changing while driving on interstate -_- I only drove about 200 miles and drove conservatively from home to work to school and back. the seller is demanding I find out what the cause is, and the bushing looks off centered but the seller argues that if it's a static deformation of bushings, alignment should compensate for that, and also told me that he had no customers with issues like mine, nor himself had the issue on 2 of the cars TSX, and TL . It was delivered to me on April 2nd. so I would like to get on this before my warranty period runs out. Let me know what information you would need and/or what I can do to correct the alignment issue. Oh, also to note, the camber, in all 3 different alignment sessions remained unchanged. I didn't really see the point of replacing the toe control arm with one of your adjustables in the beginning but just did it anyways per the instruction sheet. Let me know if i can use OEM toe control arm, with ingalls lower(camber) arm, without voiding the warranty on the camber arm. Thank you very much.
END INQUIRY
REPLY
You can use the OEM toe arm with our adjustable lower camber arm. However, the smaller adjustment range of the OEM toe setup will limit the total amount of camber available in the Ingalls arm.
It may not be possible to achieve the amount of camber you require and still maintain correct toe. There is no way to know if this will work without going through the alignment process and seeing how much camber you can get with the toe at its limit.and determining if you can accept the final settings.
If the bushings have failed in some way, please let us know how long they have been installed and send pics of the problem. We will work with you to rectify the problem.
END REPLY
Okay they've all been nice to me but that really didn't fix the actual problem. I would have sent pictures if the bushings "failed" but they didn't. They just.. flexed the toe way too much under dynamic load and even the threshold was too low. How much is too much? Well for me anything more than OEM was too much. The only way to get evidence of that was to install a Go Pro camera taking video of suspension but nor did I have money or will power to do that, as I was trying to cheap out and just use OEM toe arm because $$. Even then, would it be visible? I wouldn't know. Probably. Maybe.
So I was like, what the heck, it's all my fault for not knowing the existence of spherical bearing beforehand. So I bought SPC, and it worked. And sold Ingalls on the Black Market since everyone but me wanted it. Ended up costing me about $50 extra after selling "like new" Ingalls kit for less than new cost and purchasing SPC kit from eBay
Like I said, I was tight on money. It was a reputable seller with 99.9% positive.
Anyway. About 8 months later a member said exactly what I wanted to say back when I was having problems with Ingalls kit.
Good freaking point about my tires. But then again, would the "dynamic" flex cause premature tire wear? I don't know. I think it would, but I don't have proof because I didn't have spare $700 to throw away for a new set of tires in case then-current ones went bad.
For conclusion, (No, do not TL;DR as the conclusion doesn't cover the full story) if I had an amnesia and had Acurazine threads as sources of information and was trying to decide on which camber kit, I would go SPC as there are no failed reports(I replaced the already-alright black accordian boot with OEM boot) and I will not extremely lower my car over 1" where I AM NOT SURE IF stock toe bolt cannot put the toe back to where it should be. (Judging from A-spec) Sure, normal people don't take near 1G turns but if stock can handle it, so should the aftermarket replacement. That's just me. You don't see stock toe arms failing because you turned too hard. Plus I wasn't even driving hard when I started notice the rear toe wobble.
I'm done with camber kit discussion now. Enjoy reading & shopping & driving!
CLICKABLE : https://acurazine.com/forums/tires-w...er-kit-885207/
Also to note my toe was set at exactly 0.00 all around which makes my car a lot more prone to drifting off to the side, caused by road crown or pavement irregularities. But for me it's better than constantly rubbing tires toward each other or one another (OEM, toe-in) so I choose to do it that way and once you get used to it, the steering jerkiness doesn't bother you much. I come from 02 Hyundai Tiburon 2.0L 4banger making 380hp and 360lb ft of torque so you could imagine how miniscule it feels compared to the massive torque steer. (GT28..something RS... @ 25psi I forget.)
If you didn't specifically told your alignment tech you want 0.00 toe, they will set it to toe-in, or however cars specify these days to have constant tension from each side so the road affect your steering less violently. Therefore YMMV, but rubber is rubber and steel is steel. (But steel reinforced rubb... *punches* Get out.)
These are from 2013.
TICKET
Hi. Mr. Heeltoe.
I truly appreciate your customer care with my order finished a couple weeks ago
However, I seem to have a slight problem with ingall's rear camber kit.
I aligned the car so that front cambers are -0.4, and rears at -0.9 and 0.00 toe at all corners.
but after a few days of driving, the steering keeps going off center.
I've been back to where i got the alignment and noticed the rear toe is not staying at where i saw it last time.
I checked the work myself with the tech under my car, twice(it's only a mile away from where i live so i dropped by as soon as noticed the problem)
camber is good, but toe changes both left and right rear corners.
I posted the question in acurazine forums and one member replied that the bushing was "moving" and I marked my bushing with a sharpie and it did move (is this normal? i don't know. but the toe change i know isn't normal)
I just installed it last tuesday so maybe I should be putting a couple hundred more miles. but when is the deadline for me to get the problematic(if there is) replaced under warranty??
many thanks
END TICKET
REPLY
Hi there, sorry you are having trouble!
First I would ask how you know the toe is moving. Is this verified on an alignment machine?
Also, I am not sure what area has the sharpie mark and what this is showing. Do you have an image to share? Please attach some in reply to this email, MAKE SURE THE IMAGES ARE SMALLER THAN 1 MB EACH. This is important, as if they are 1 Mb or larger I will not get them.
END REPLY
TICKET
okay here's the track of events.
april 1st : YAY UPS TRUCK WAS HERE
april 2nd : installed camber kit.
3rd : got alignment
3rd afternoon : steering felt off center, just told myself it's the road concave
5th : it was weird, so i went back to the same shop with same tech, and car was put on the machine and the hunter red light blinking monster found that both toe were out slightly. left side was worse. ( don't recall the EXACT numbers but it was OUT 0.06 on one side)
re-aligned, for free
7th : steering went off center, same direction, again.
9th : went to get an alignment. machine found the toe was off again. but less. re-aligned, for free.
and then,,,,, yesterday i noticed the steering is not centered toward the same direction, but to lesser degree. Thought I'd find out if I'm eligible for ingalls warranty replacement before i go bug the alignment shop again :P
rain eased a bit, crawled under car, can't see sharpie marks -_-;; i'm sorry.
anyway .thank you for your timely response.
END TICKET
TICKET
Mr. Heeltoe.
I've booked another alignment appointment tomorrow the Tuesday,
I will share my findings with you once I get back.
just an update.
END TICKET
A little story,
The sharpie mark I'm talking about, I read about Ingalls bushing donut issues before I bought it and I don't recall which issue I needed support with (as mentioned in my original ticket), but I certainly did not have issue with buying things online so... taking a wild guess, I think I asked to be sure it was the updated "hardened" bushing. (I really don't remember, but I don't see if there's anything else I'd ask about camber kit.)
REPLY
I did not see any photo in case you did attach one. We really are not sure of any situation which would cause the alignment to "move" on its own...I cannot see how the Ingalls part could cause this. We'll see if we can come up with an explanation but what marks you indicated will be helpful to see.
END REPLY
TICKET
I didn't get the pic of the marks because.... they were water markers and it rained and i drove.....
anyway. the alignment feels stable for now. if the issue occurs again i'll use this ticket if it's open. or send you a new email.
the tech made sure toe cam bolt was tight, and suspected the bushing deforming under load (driving on one side of concave road for a long time) and temporarily being locked in that position kinda like tire flat spotting overnight......
i don't know it's not there so I'll be driving. but i'll keep an eye on it.
Thanks.
END TICKET
REPLY
If the bushing deformed under dyamnic load then it should normalize when the load goes away. And if it deforms under static load then the alignment should compensate for that. At the end of the day if there is a problem with the bushing it should appear obvious. These are not historically problematic parts and we definitely would like to learn more if your issue continues.
END REPLY
Well, they are historically problematic now. Also now that I think back, it could have appeared obvious while dynamically deforming but it was just that nobody was sticking their head under the rear bumper while my car was moving
The dynamic load part is what I hate. And what other people probably dislikes in Ingalls kit. I was hoping for "the bushing shouldn't deflect that much". Spherical bearings don't deform at all, on top of the fact that OEM rubber was much harder than the one installed in Ingalls. I think I made sure I was getting the updated one because I've been reading about the very first Ingalls bushing donut issue on the forum prior to making purchase.
So I started a thread, and then while anxiously refreshing the page for possible solutions, angry me, being bitter on the internet. It's from the linked thread on top of this post.
Besides the dust boot issue, the Ingalls camber kit is much easier to install than the SPC camber arms. You need the fork tool and sometimes the stock arm is a pain in the a$$ to remove.
Maybe the ease of installation is another reason why they both recommended the Ingalls kit? I'm just guessing though.
Maybe the ease of installation is another reason why they both recommended the Ingalls kit? I'm just guessing though.
We recommend INGALLS because it includes 2 arms per side (one for toe and one for camber); SPC only includes one arm to adjust camber. If there is an issue as of late then people should contact INGALLS to let them know so they can check over everything and help solve the issue.
But I am not satisfied with the answer. How are 2 arms per side better than 1 arm? I thought it sounded like "2 x 5 dollar bills are better than 1 x 20 dollar bill"
I got a little side-tracked here but I wanted to point out that no one was able to give me a technical advantage of Ingalls over SPC, when I specifically asked for a recommendation for my car, not lowered and not planning to lower more than 1" if at all.
Then, I was thinking hmmm,
I've NEVER tried it because I haven't had your problem with my Ingalls kit. *knock on wood*
I say give it a shot and come back and inform us if it worked or not.
INQUIRY
Hi, I purchased 2 sets of the rear camber kit from your authorized retailer heeltoe automotive. and I've been to 3 different alignment sessions and the toe keeps changing. today I could even feel the rear toe changing while driving on interstate -_- I only drove about 200 miles and drove conservatively from home to work to school and back. the seller is demanding I find out what the cause is, and the bushing looks off centered but the seller argues that if it's a static deformation of bushings, alignment should compensate for that, and also told me that he had no customers with issues like mine, nor himself had the issue on 2 of the cars TSX, and TL . It was delivered to me on April 2nd. so I would like to get on this before my warranty period runs out. Let me know what information you would need and/or what I can do to correct the alignment issue. Oh, also to note, the camber, in all 3 different alignment sessions remained unchanged. I didn't really see the point of replacing the toe control arm with one of your adjustables in the beginning but just did it anyways per the instruction sheet. Let me know if i can use OEM toe control arm, with ingalls lower(camber) arm, without voiding the warranty on the camber arm. Thank you very much.
END INQUIRY
REPLY
You can use the OEM toe arm with our adjustable lower camber arm. However, the smaller adjustment range of the OEM toe setup will limit the total amount of camber available in the Ingalls arm.
It may not be possible to achieve the amount of camber you require and still maintain correct toe. There is no way to know if this will work without going through the alignment process and seeing how much camber you can get with the toe at its limit.and determining if you can accept the final settings.
If the bushings have failed in some way, please let us know how long they have been installed and send pics of the problem. We will work with you to rectify the problem.
END REPLY
Okay they've all been nice to me but that really didn't fix the actual problem. I would have sent pictures if the bushings "failed" but they didn't. They just.. flexed the toe way too much under dynamic load and even the threshold was too low. How much is too much? Well for me anything more than OEM was too much. The only way to get evidence of that was to install a Go Pro camera taking video of suspension but nor did I have money or will power to do that, as I was trying to cheap out and just use OEM toe arm because $$. Even then, would it be visible? I wouldn't know. Probably. Maybe.
So I was like, what the heck, it's all my fault for not knowing the existence of spherical bearing beforehand. So I bought SPC, and it worked. And sold Ingalls on the Black Market since everyone but me wanted it. Ended up costing me about $50 extra after selling "like new" Ingalls kit for less than new cost and purchasing SPC kit from eBay
Like I said, I was tight on money. It was a reputable seller with 99.9% positive.Anyway. About 8 months later a member said exactly what I wanted to say back when I was having problems with Ingalls kit.
No bashing here but this has been a problem for awhile with me pre heeltoe and post heeltoe kit with alignment issues on stock setup on the rear. It doesn't matter whether a company replaces the kit or not, they will not replace the tires. (I wouldn't expect them too)
Fact is it doesn't look like the problem has been solved as to rear alignment issues. While some has been successful most have not.
I would like to see or hear a fix that works for all, not just a few.
I have a coworker with aftermarket wheels (18") on his car who haven't had any issues with rear alignment. Both cars (his and mind) have >160k miles and are both 2006...
Fact is it doesn't look like the problem has been solved as to rear alignment issues. While some has been successful most have not.
I would like to see or hear a fix that works for all, not just a few.
I have a coworker with aftermarket wheels (18") on his car who haven't had any issues with rear alignment. Both cars (his and mind) have >160k miles and are both 2006...
For conclusion, (No, do not TL;DR as the conclusion doesn't cover the full story) if I had an amnesia and had Acurazine threads as sources of information and was trying to decide on which camber kit, I would go SPC as there are no failed reports(I replaced the already-alright black accordian boot with OEM boot) and I will not extremely lower my car over 1" where I AM NOT SURE IF stock toe bolt cannot put the toe back to where it should be. (Judging from A-spec) Sure, normal people don't take near 1G turns but if stock can handle it, so should the aftermarket replacement. That's just me. You don't see stock toe arms failing because you turned too hard. Plus I wasn't even driving hard when I started notice the rear toe wobble.
I'm done with camber kit discussion now. Enjoy reading & shopping & driving!
01-27-2015, 08:05 AM
#147
Burning Brakes
I'm not sure of this fixation on the "camber kit with no ball joint is good." We knew there was a boot issue, and it was documented on HeelToe, but that document disappeared off your website. I know, because I saved a URL shortcut. I checked this a few months ago and showed "document not found." While it's ok to defend a product that you sell, I don't agree with the product being 99% trouble free with "only a few complaints."
Fast forward to now, SPC has the accordion style boot and I understand why having been trained as an engineer. The pre-folded ball join boot avoid causing new stress points on the rubber by folding creases into a brand new all smooth surface boot. This is a GREAT design in my opinion, even better than stock, which is an all smooth boot. I don't know when this changed but I believe SPC corrected their issue before Ingalls did. I am possibly wrong on that. But circling back to the design portion of these camber arms. It is imperative to have a spherical bushing design. There is a reason why Honda has stayed with this design for a long long time and I'm sure they tested the hell out of them in all weather conditions. I don't track or race my car, but I do drive in snow, slush and rain. I remember seeing a picture on Heeltoe's website with the Ingalls arms on a TSX looking almost flawless, because it's a car from the southern region.
In the end, there is no denying what I went through with the Ingalls arms in 3.5 years, what they look like now in the pictures, and what the speed shop owner told me. That's all I have to say.
Fast forward to now, SPC has the accordion style boot and I understand why having been trained as an engineer. The pre-folded ball join boot avoid causing new stress points on the rubber by folding creases into a brand new all smooth surface boot. This is a GREAT design in my opinion, even better than stock, which is an all smooth boot. I don't know when this changed but I believe SPC corrected their issue before Ingalls did. I am possibly wrong on that. But circling back to the design portion of these camber arms. It is imperative to have a spherical bushing design. There is a reason why Honda has stayed with this design for a long long time and I'm sure they tested the hell out of them in all weather conditions. I don't track or race my car, but I do drive in snow, slush and rain. I remember seeing a picture on Heeltoe's website with the Ingalls arms on a TSX looking almost flawless, because it's a car from the southern region.
In the end, there is no denying what I went through with the Ingalls arms in 3.5 years, what they look like now in the pictures, and what the speed shop owner told me. That's all I have to say.
Last edited by t-rd; 01-27-2015 at 08:08 AM.
01-27-2015, 09:17 AM
#148
Safety Car
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Jose, CA/ Charleston, WV
Posts: 4,045
Received 619 Likes
on
459 Posts
SPC style FTMW!
I swapped from ingalls to SPC it was cheaper and never looked back. Firestone was getting pissed I kept coming in every month to get my alignment fixed for free (Lifetime warranty ;P)
I swapped from ingalls to SPC it was cheaper and never looked back. Firestone was getting pissed I kept coming in every month to get my alignment fixed for free (Lifetime warranty ;P)
01-27-2015, 04:32 PM
#149
Well, I can't say for sure...I've had a call or two but I never asked. I am not inclined to think so. But the boot itself isn't the only issue. The joints themselves are not as good as the stock one (speculating or experienced assumption...maybe doesn't hold water).
01-27-2015, 06:01 PM
#150
I believe it true that I have talked more people OUT of buying alignment kits at all than I've had call me with an issue with these kits.
I'm not sure of this fixation on the "camber kit with no ball joint is good." We knew there was a boot issue, and it was documented on HeelToe, but that document disappeared off your website. I know, because I saved a URL shortcut. I checked this a few months ago and showed "document not found." While it's ok to defend a product that you sell, I don't agree with the product being 99% trouble free with "only a few complaints."
For camber rear kits, avoid parts with aftermarket ball-joints. « HeelToeAuto.com's Pit Board
But the defense is still true. Having sold many hundreds of sets of these or more there is a lot of claiming that needs to happen before it even blips on the radar of a problem existing to the extent as being communicated here.
I've had conversations with Ingalls over these parts a couple times over the years. The few times an issue has come up we discuss it and they have NOTHING to go on. Customers might call but they don't send parts back, don't give telling pictures or evidence, or don't follow up. I have gleaned more info than they have and I cannot come up with a reason to think there is something wrong with the part from a design or production perspective, outside isolated cases.
There are so many of these out there...there WILL be issues. We expect some people to have problems. The fact that a dozen (?) or so people are vocal, means that there may be more than an issue. But I cannot overstate enough how little a discussion here, on AZ, will influence an individual manufacturer. They give very little credit to what goes on "in forums." It may be a fault, but it really needs to get to be a problem that makes its way back to Ingalls...and here they aren't.
What I need to decide here is our "refined" stance based on what is coming up here. I still think the Ingalls are a great kit and will continue to recommend them alongside the SPC. However the customer's needs and goals will play an increased factor going forward.
I DO agree that Honda would have put a higher cost arm in place begrudgingly, and assume that the stock arms would have been cheaper if made with rubber on both ends. I think it adds to the dynamic nature of the car but doesn't quite come down to a critical part. I would think that keeping them completely stock is a good idea if possible. I was running 2.5 degrees negative on my car for a LONG time with stock arms and had no problems with that at all. It is a great setting for performance driving and the impact on tires was not so bad as to be unacceptable to me.
I will recommend keeping these stock to many people or anyone who asks. Always have, always will. But people 'have' to get that number right! So, we sell the kits.
There, you had me ramble.
01-28-2015, 09:36 AM
#151
Finally going to get to install the Hardrace arms this weekend... one question. Are the OE torque specs same as what is on the Ingalls instrux?
Tighten the 4 bolt and nut connections to OE specifications or the following: Tighten the cam bolt and nut and torque to 40 ft-lbs (54 N-m),
the other inner bolt and nut to 43 ft-lbs (59 N-m) and the two outer connections to 75 ft-lbs? thanks
Tighten the 4 bolt and nut connections to OE specifications or the following: Tighten the cam bolt and nut and torque to 40 ft-lbs (54 N-m),
the other inner bolt and nut to 43 ft-lbs (59 N-m) and the two outer connections to 75 ft-lbs? thanks
01-28-2015, 10:17 AM
#152
Three Wheelin'
Aftermarket ball joints and bushings always seem to be hit or miss.
Fingers crossed for all of us
Fingers crossed for all of us
01-28-2015, 10:20 AM
#153
Burning Brakes
I whipped the hell out of my car this morning while going to work, making fast turns, everything stayed planted, no alignment movement.
You have to admit the the fact that there is less squatting upon launch, wobbling around corners, soft landing after going over a bump. I don't know what to tell you HeelToeauto. The only I can tell you is, swap out your Ingalls setup right now for OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arms. The suspension feel change is IMMEDIATE.
I still hear a lot of defensive statements going on. I work in the IT field and sometimes certain technology breaks, and our sales lead would jump in and say "wait, no, there is way to make that work!" Being in sale sometimes grants a person bluffing rights in order to sell something. So after some discussions with engineering (ME), nope, I end up having to tell customers what's wrong then stress myself out to come up with a workaround. So I fully understand being in that defensive shoe. The only thing I ask of the people defending Ingalls setup is to clearly check the tire wear. An aftermarket product made to go on a car should work well in any road or weather conditions, like that of OEM suspension. I remember having Koni yellow shocks on my old car for a whopping 8 years without any serious rust.
You have to admit the the fact that there is less squatting upon launch, wobbling around corners, soft landing after going over a bump. I don't know what to tell you HeelToeauto. The only I can tell you is, swap out your Ingalls setup right now for OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arms. The suspension feel change is IMMEDIATE.
I still hear a lot of defensive statements going on. I work in the IT field and sometimes certain technology breaks, and our sales lead would jump in and say "wait, no, there is way to make that work!" Being in sale sometimes grants a person bluffing rights in order to sell something. So after some discussions with engineering (ME), nope, I end up having to tell customers what's wrong then stress myself out to come up with a workaround. So I fully understand being in that defensive shoe. The only thing I ask of the people defending Ingalls setup is to clearly check the tire wear. An aftermarket product made to go on a car should work well in any road or weather conditions, like that of OEM suspension. I remember having Koni yellow shocks on my old car for a whopping 8 years without any serious rust.
Last edited by t-rd; 01-28-2015 at 10:25 AM.
01-28-2015, 12:27 PM
#154
It could...but also note that these cars are very susceptible to wear from dynamic movement of the suspension in general. The rear shocks I look at A LOT.
Wear? I had the kit for less than 200 miles. Rear suspension had 17k miles. If these cars are susceptible to wear, it's the aftermarket parts manufacturer's job to take that into consideration and design it accordingly to at least match OEM level of durability, or they shouldn't be selling it as model-specific product. It should just be generic camber & control arm kit that is adjustable between this length and that length.
Yes it will. If we spoke on the phone and you told me that I would tell you not to get a camber kit at all.
We did speak on the phone. That's why I don't have record of the excellent customer service prior to purchase. If I did I would have also posted it.
It is up still...we've had some redirect issues with the new site tho:
For camber rear kits, avoid parts with aftermarket ball-joints. « HeelToeAuto.com's Pit Board
It says "The problem with replacing the stock arm with an aftermarket one is that the stock ball-joints have really high quality rubber on the boots, and are deigned to work within a specific range of motion. Because aftermarket ball-joint boots are of inferior material, and are subjected to altered range of motion (when installed on a lowered car), the boots tend to become brittle and they brake after a while." Yea so I got OEM boot and used within OEM range of ride height. All "drawbacks" of SPC are resolved. Btw, it's "break", not "brake".
I've had conversations with Ingalls over these parts a couple times over the years. The few times an issue has come up we discuss it and they have NOTHING to go on. Customers might call but they don't send parts back, don't give telling pictures or evidence, or don't follow up. I have gleaned more info than they have and I cannot come up with a reason to think there is something wrong with the part from a design or production perspective, outside isolated cases.
Right, I didn't want to say it but the manufacturer was technically asking the customer to do the R&D for them.
Ignorance is b...... How am I supposed to get photographs of dynamic change? Get a $300 GoPro camera to do the work for them and hopefully get my money refunded? My time is worth more working than taking video footage and waiting for the response, cost wise.
Like I said, the dynamic change is too much because it's more than stock but people don't feel it personally or don't think it's necessary personally. But like I also said earlier this thread, there are millions of cars out there much less precise than TL with happy owners. Just because you(in general, not directed personally) can't feel it doesn't mean others can't either, nor is it okay to consider it unnecessary for everyone.
Why didn't I send it back? Because If I wanted to show them I'd have to send my car with it while it's driving down the road. Also I can't be sure if they would refund me like I recouped the cost by selling it used. Plus, we all know it's stupid to send the actual product back if you have problem. They can destroy evidence and I have nothing. I would think such a big company wouldn't do it, but their response changed my mind.
It may be a fault, but it really needs to get to be a problem that makes its way back to Ingalls...and here they aren't.
It is a fault in technical terms. They aren't being reported to Ingalls because none of us unsatisfied customer are Ingalls's (pronounce it Ingalls-is) employee. If you replace your audio gear with less accuracy in response(with all else being equal for the sake of example), it is a downgrade. You can abolutely not say it is as good as the previous gear. But it's up to the user to decide if it matters or not.
Looking at their attitude from when I asked the question, they did not even mention the bushing deformation under what you referred as dynamic load. Not to mention cruising straight down interstate under speed limit is very dynamic. That's when I gave up on talking to Ingalls directly and started to have (relatively) more faith in Mr. Heeltoe. At least you cared.
It is a little irrelevant who did what first...if anything this supports our prior stance...SPC had more of a problem and Ingalls, which frankly is still in debate as to how much of a problem it is.
Google search of "SPC rear camber kit problem" does not show any problem with the specific model for 3G TL, which is why this thread is in 3G TL section on Acurazine.
Google search of "site:acurazine.com SPC rear camber problem" shows no results of failure other than the stupid dust boot. It WAS(no longer, or use my SPC rear camber kit DIY) just a darn boot, not actual suspension wobbling to cause driving precision issues.
I do not agree that a bearing is imperative for normal driving. Better for harder driving? Yes, definitely. Bearings ARE better, but imperative? I disagree. This statement extends well outside of just these arms...from Camrys to Indy cars the same is true.
Okay so if you think 1 spherical bearing on a mass produced multi-link suspension is not imperative, are you saying Honda engineers designed 3G TL for racing applications and decided to homologate it?
I'm not telling what to put on your car as I'm telling the potential customers decide what THEY want by sharing everything I learned the hard and expensive way.
What I need to decide here is our "refined" stance based on what is coming up here. I still think the Ingalls are a great kit and will continue to recommend them alongside the SPC.
What you think matters little, if at all, in Ingalls manufacturing suspension control arms that have more give than OEM spec - unless you are involved in designing the said part. I wasn't talking about how to run your business. I was specifically talking about the kit itself to the people who want rear camber kits.
However the customer's needs and goals will play an increased factor going forward.
You're welcome. I have unintentionally helped you become a even better retailer than you already were. (no sarcasm)
I think it adds to the dynamic nature of the car but doesn't quite come down to a critical part. I would think that keeping them completely stock is a good idea if possible. I was running 2.5 degrees negative on my car for a LONG time with stock arms and had no problems with that at all.
No it is not great setting for performance driving. If rears were -2.5 I'd have to match the front with -2.5 or greater, which causes premature inside wear with zero toe because FWD(which is still within OEM specified alignment) and the inside wear will be even more pronounced if you use performance, or even DOT legal semi-slick tire. To successfully run that much camber and have even tire wear, car would have to be on track and pulling 1.1G turns all day or make my own tire with super hard compound inside and soft one on the outside. Also -2.5 is way out of OEM spec, which means Honda engineers believe there can be problems which is why I do not think keeping them completely stock running -2.5 is "good idea".
It is a great setting for performance driving and the impact on tires was not so bad as to be unacceptable to me.
That's grey area. What is acceptable to you? My acceptable tire wear is no more than 1/32nd difference between inside and out at the end of life. Use numbers instead of arbitrary standard. Or even better, do an hour drive and measure tire temperature outside, middle, inside. Then we'll know what's acceptable. I bet that -2.5 camber rear tire's outside temperature would have been as cold as *insert clever celebrity getting dumped reference*.
I will recommend keeping these stock to many people or anyone who asks. Always have, always will. But people 'have' to get that number right! So, we sell the kits.
I wasn't saying you should stop recommending what you sell. Although I was trying to tell the potential customers to decide what they want. We're all big boys, and gals. Do you want to keep your TL handling and rear trailing as it was designed AKA OEM? because going Ingalls WILL degrade precision, although it's up to the owner to decide if it is okay or not. I wish I had more money and kept the Ingalls so I can send it in to test its Young's modulus against OEM arm in various angles and give everyone number, like Ingalls kit is 300% softer than stock, or something. (That's NOT an actual number, everyone.) Because people DO have to get the "number" right.
Wear? I had the kit for less than 200 miles. Rear suspension had 17k miles. If these cars are susceptible to wear, it's the aftermarket parts manufacturer's job to take that into consideration and design it accordingly to at least match OEM level of durability, or they shouldn't be selling it as model-specific product. It should just be generic camber & control arm kit that is adjustable between this length and that length.
Yes it will. If we spoke on the phone and you told me that I would tell you not to get a camber kit at all.
We did speak on the phone. That's why I don't have record of the excellent customer service prior to purchase. If I did I would have also posted it.
It is up still...we've had some redirect issues with the new site tho:
For camber rear kits, avoid parts with aftermarket ball-joints. « HeelToeAuto.com's Pit Board
It says "The problem with replacing the stock arm with an aftermarket one is that the stock ball-joints have really high quality rubber on the boots, and are deigned to work within a specific range of motion. Because aftermarket ball-joint boots are of inferior material, and are subjected to altered range of motion (when installed on a lowered car), the boots tend to become brittle and they brake after a while." Yea so I got OEM boot and used within OEM range of ride height. All "drawbacks" of SPC are resolved. Btw, it's "break", not "brake".
I've had conversations with Ingalls over these parts a couple times over the years. The few times an issue has come up we discuss it and they have NOTHING to go on. Customers might call but they don't send parts back, don't give telling pictures or evidence, or don't follow up. I have gleaned more info than they have and I cannot come up with a reason to think there is something wrong with the part from a design or production perspective, outside isolated cases.
Right, I didn't want to say it but the manufacturer was technically asking the customer to do the R&D for them.
Ignorance is b...... How am I supposed to get photographs of dynamic change? Get a $300 GoPro camera to do the work for them and hopefully get my money refunded? My time is worth more working than taking video footage and waiting for the response, cost wise.Like I said, the dynamic change is too much because it's more than stock but people don't feel it personally or don't think it's necessary personally. But like I also said earlier this thread, there are millions of cars out there much less precise than TL with happy owners. Just because you(in general, not directed personally) can't feel it doesn't mean others can't either, nor is it okay to consider it unnecessary for everyone.
Why didn't I send it back? Because If I wanted to show them I'd have to send my car with it while it's driving down the road. Also I can't be sure if they would refund me like I recouped the cost by selling it used. Plus, we all know it's stupid to send the actual product back if you have problem. They can destroy evidence and I have nothing. I would think such a big company wouldn't do it, but their response changed my mind.
It may be a fault, but it really needs to get to be a problem that makes its way back to Ingalls...and here they aren't.
It is a fault in technical terms. They aren't being reported to Ingalls because none of us unsatisfied customer are Ingalls's (pronounce it Ingalls-is) employee. If you replace your audio gear with less accuracy in response(with all else being equal for the sake of example), it is a downgrade. You can abolutely not say it is as good as the previous gear. But it's up to the user to decide if it matters or not.
Looking at their attitude from when I asked the question, they did not even mention the bushing deformation under what you referred as dynamic load. Not to mention cruising straight down interstate under speed limit is very dynamic. That's when I gave up on talking to Ingalls directly and started to have (relatively) more faith in Mr. Heeltoe. At least you cared.
It is a little irrelevant who did what first...if anything this supports our prior stance...SPC had more of a problem and Ingalls, which frankly is still in debate as to how much of a problem it is.
Google search of "SPC rear camber kit problem" does not show any problem with the specific model for 3G TL, which is why this thread is in 3G TL section on Acurazine.
Google search of "site:acurazine.com SPC rear camber problem" shows no results of failure other than the stupid dust boot. It WAS(no longer, or use my SPC rear camber kit DIY) just a darn boot, not actual suspension wobbling to cause driving precision issues.
I do not agree that a bearing is imperative for normal driving. Better for harder driving? Yes, definitely. Bearings ARE better, but imperative? I disagree. This statement extends well outside of just these arms...from Camrys to Indy cars the same is true.
Okay so if you think 1 spherical bearing on a mass produced multi-link suspension is not imperative, are you saying Honda engineers designed 3G TL for racing applications and decided to homologate it?
I'm not telling what to put on your car as I'm telling the potential customers decide what THEY want by sharing everything I learned the hard and expensive way.
What I need to decide here is our "refined" stance based on what is coming up here. I still think the Ingalls are a great kit and will continue to recommend them alongside the SPC.
What you think matters little, if at all, in Ingalls manufacturing suspension control arms that have more give than OEM spec - unless you are involved in designing the said part. I wasn't talking about how to run your business. I was specifically talking about the kit itself to the people who want rear camber kits.
However the customer's needs and goals will play an increased factor going forward.
You're welcome. I have unintentionally helped you become a even better retailer than you already were. (no sarcasm)
I think it adds to the dynamic nature of the car but doesn't quite come down to a critical part. I would think that keeping them completely stock is a good idea if possible. I was running 2.5 degrees negative on my car for a LONG time with stock arms and had no problems with that at all.
No it is not great setting for performance driving. If rears were -2.5 I'd have to match the front with -2.5 or greater, which causes premature inside wear with zero toe because FWD(which is still within OEM specified alignment) and the inside wear will be even more pronounced if you use performance, or even DOT legal semi-slick tire. To successfully run that much camber and have even tire wear, car would have to be on track and pulling 1.1G turns all day or make my own tire with super hard compound inside and soft one on the outside. Also -2.5 is way out of OEM spec, which means Honda engineers believe there can be problems which is why I do not think keeping them completely stock running -2.5 is "good idea".
It is a great setting for performance driving and the impact on tires was not so bad as to be unacceptable to me.
That's grey area. What is acceptable to you? My acceptable tire wear is no more than 1/32nd difference between inside and out at the end of life. Use numbers instead of arbitrary standard. Or even better, do an hour drive and measure tire temperature outside, middle, inside. Then we'll know what's acceptable. I bet that -2.5 camber rear tire's outside temperature would have been as cold as *insert clever celebrity getting dumped reference*.
I will recommend keeping these stock to many people or anyone who asks. Always have, always will. But people 'have' to get that number right! So, we sell the kits.
I wasn't saying you should stop recommending what you sell. Although I was trying to tell the potential customers to decide what they want. We're all big boys, and gals. Do you want to keep your TL handling and rear trailing as it was designed AKA OEM? because going Ingalls WILL degrade precision, although it's up to the owner to decide if it is okay or not. I wish I had more money and kept the Ingalls so I can send it in to test its Young's modulus against OEM arm in various angles and give everyone number, like Ingalls kit is 300% softer than stock, or something. (That's NOT an actual number, everyone.) Because people DO have to get the "number" right.
Anyway, the Heeltoe customer service won't make the Ingalls rubber as hard as steel. Would you notice it? I don't know. I did. Would you be annoyed by it if you do? I don't know. I sure as heck was. But keep in mind there are lots of cars with happy owners that are less precise than TL in varying degrees. Oh you people make me repeat myself too much or is that how forums always are?
I whipped the hell out of my car this morning while going to work, making fast turns, everything stayed planted, no alignment movement.
You have to admit the the fact that there is less squatting upon launch, wobbling around corners, soft landing after going over a bump. I don't know what to tell you HeelToeauto. The only I can tell you is, swap out your Ingalls setup right now for OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arms. The suspension feel change is IMMEDIATE.
I still hear a lot of defensive statements going on. I work in the IT field and sometimes certain technology breaks, and our sales lead would jump in and say "wait, no, there is way to make that work!" Being in sale sometimes grants a person bluffing rights in order to sell something. So after some discussions with engineering (ME), nope, I end up having to tell customers what's wrong then stress myself out to come up with a workaround. So I fully understand being in that defensive shoe. The only thing I ask of the people defending Ingalls setup is to clearly check the tire wear. An aftermarket product made to go on a car should work well in any road or weather conditions, like that of OEM suspension. I remember having Koni yellow shocks on my old car for a whopping 8 years without any serious rust.
You have to admit the the fact that there is less squatting upon launch, wobbling around corners, soft landing after going over a bump. I don't know what to tell you HeelToeauto. The only I can tell you is, swap out your Ingalls setup right now for OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arms. The suspension feel change is IMMEDIATE.
I still hear a lot of defensive statements going on. I work in the IT field and sometimes certain technology breaks, and our sales lead would jump in and say "wait, no, there is way to make that work!" Being in sale sometimes grants a person bluffing rights in order to sell something. So after some discussions with engineering (ME), nope, I end up having to tell customers what's wrong then stress myself out to come up with a workaround. So I fully understand being in that defensive shoe. The only thing I ask of the people defending Ingalls setup is to clearly check the tire wear. An aftermarket product made to go on a car should work well in any road or weather conditions, like that of OEM suspension. I remember having Koni yellow shocks on my old car for a whopping 8 years without any serious rust.
Last edited by 4drviper; 01-28-2015 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Added quoting t-rd.
The following users liked this post:
MrHeeltoe (01-30-2015)
01-30-2015, 10:21 AM
#155
I whipped the hell out of my car this morning while going to work, making fast turns, everything stayed planted, no alignment movement.
You have to admit the the fact that there is less squatting upon launch, wobbling around corners, soft landing after going over a bump. I don't know what to tell you HeelToeauto. The only I can tell you is, swap out your Ingalls setup right now for OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arms. The suspension feel change is IMMEDIATE.
I still hear a lot of defensive statements going on. I work in the IT field and sometimes certain technology breaks, and our sales lead would jump in and say "wait, no, there is way to make that work!" Being in sale sometimes grants a person bluffing rights in order to sell something. So after some discussions with engineering (ME), nope, I end up having to tell customers what's wrong then stress myself out to come up with a workaround. So I fully understand being in that defensive shoe. The only thing I ask of the people defending Ingalls setup is to clearly check the tire wear. An aftermarket product made to go on a car should work well in any road or weather conditions, like that of OEM suspension. I remember having Koni yellow shocks on my old car for a whopping 8 years without any serious rust.
You have to admit the the fact that there is less squatting upon launch, wobbling around corners, soft landing after going over a bump. I don't know what to tell you HeelToeauto. The only I can tell you is, swap out your Ingalls setup right now for OEM lower rear arms + SPC upper arms. The suspension feel change is IMMEDIATE.
I still hear a lot of defensive statements going on. I work in the IT field and sometimes certain technology breaks, and our sales lead would jump in and say "wait, no, there is way to make that work!" Being in sale sometimes grants a person bluffing rights in order to sell something. So after some discussions with engineering (ME), nope, I end up having to tell customers what's wrong then stress myself out to come up with a workaround. So I fully understand being in that defensive shoe. The only thing I ask of the people defending Ingalls setup is to clearly check the tire wear. An aftermarket product made to go on a car should work well in any road or weather conditions, like that of OEM suspension. I remember having Koni yellow shocks on my old car for a whopping 8 years without any serious rust.
Oh look, there he is in the car now!
That car was pulling well over a g in a few turns. I put more load on those arms in one day that most users will ever do. AND, this kit had the OLD bushings.
Sorry guys, it is going to take a LOT to get me to change my tune. The Ingalls are perfectly fine parts. Yes, people have had some issues. Let's pop over to the MDX forum where people berate that car for being the worst thing on wheels, as the vehicle is repeatedly a best seller and top pick.
Understand I am not belittling your experiences. Mine, and many other peoples', have been different.
01-30-2015, 10:33 AM
#156
4drviper I read your comments and I think that while we can go back and forth all day, it is Friday and frankly it isn't helping anyone. I'll sum up with:
* My name is Marcus, and my spelling sucks sometimes.
* You and I personally have different views on this matter. Your view is more clear to me now, and I will use that understanding to further improve our stance on the topic.
* I think you so much for recognizing our efforts to the ends of customer service.
* You are a smart man. Be careful not to interpolate too much.
Thanks all, for the discussion. I don't expect my track experiences will change a thing for you guys, but that is perfectly ok! I'm definitely picky about my car and definitely respect your standpoints.
Marcus
* My name is Marcus, and my spelling sucks sometimes.
* You and I personally have different views on this matter. Your view is more clear to me now, and I will use that understanding to further improve our stance on the topic.
* I think you so much for recognizing our efforts to the ends of customer service.
* You are a smart man. Be careful not to interpolate too much.
Thanks all, for the discussion. I don't expect my track experiences will change a thing for you guys, but that is perfectly ok! I'm definitely picky about my car and definitely respect your standpoints.
Marcus
01-30-2015, 12:08 PM
#157
I even had a pro driver behind the wheel and he was floored at how predicable and neutral a FWD car could be.
That car was pulling well over a g in a few turns. I put more load on those arms in one day that most users will ever do. AND, this kit had the OLD bushings.
Sorry guys, it is going to take a LOT to get me to change my tune.
That car was pulling well over a g in a few turns. I put more load on those arms in one day that most users will ever do. AND, this kit had the OLD bushings.
Sorry guys, it is going to take a LOT to get me to change my tune.
Pulling straight lateral 1+ g turn puts LESS load on the arms compared to unpredictable street driving when users load the suspension with some lateral G and letting the suspension cycle up and down over any irregularities that are not present on racetrack pavements. Soooooo you'd have to have step on something while turning with the outside wheels to prove that your kit was subject to harsher conditions than road users. Don't do that intentionally tho..... Welp that wasn't my issue anyway, that was other people's bushing deforming.
I don't know what more it would take as driving feeling is very subjective matter not that I was trying to change your tune. As it will not convince you without video footage of the bushing flexing compared to OEM, it is the same the other way as in I will keep thinking rubber is inferior to steel bearing until there is some technical data that it is as hard as steel, or changes in alignment while in motion are within measurement error margins, compared to OEM, or even SPC.
(I mean if I could sponsor myself I would set up experiments but I can't right now.)
What I wanted was..
*repeats previous posts*
Now i've done that again
Given the track record of being excellent car parts dealer/car person I was honestly hoping you had some data or logical steps - that could counter what I tried to explain - compared to only arguing with one's personal preferences. This isn't over as in when you get some objective facts or data (pro driver is also subjective unless he compared the car to OEM side-by-side) bring it over for all of us and I am willing to think over. Experience is a socially accepted form of evidence, albeit subjective. Discussion is fun although I do appear meaner than I would like to be on the internet for the lack of tone in voice.
Nice to get to know you Marcus. My name is Edward. I wouldn't call myself smart. If I thought I was smart I would do things I shouldn't be doing. But thanks. I'm glad we didn't stop replying each other halfway.
Last edited by 4drviper; 01-30-2015 at 12:13 PM.
01-30-2015, 01:12 PM
#158
Burning Brakes
Driving in a car with specific aftermarket suspension parts installed, I can see how one can get totally used to the "new dynamic" of a car's suspension. I'll admit, I got used to the way Ingalls arms behave. I knew when I made a turn, the car was going to squat down and wobble a little mid turn. The minute I started driving on the OEM lower arms + SPC upper arm setup out of the shop, I noticed the difference immediately because I totally knew what the old setup felt like. So again, I'm urging you to go to a Honda car right now with similar Ingalls setup and swap it out with the SPC setup, and you'll immediately understand what I'm talking about. You can theorize all day about how one setup is better than another, defending a product, but you truly don't know how a suspension setup behaves until you are riding with it.
01-30-2015, 01:54 PM
#159
For the record here, I am not saying the bushings don't flex. The most certainly do. What I am saying is, I have not experienced deflection to the point of wonky handling. I know what that would feel like. And it most certainly would cause very poor handling on the track. To say that squishy arms and bushings would not be felt on the track under full load is reaching, at best.
I am not trying to convince either of you that I am right and you are wrong...I agree that the stock arms have better ends than the Ingalls. I agree that the SPC kit allows you to keep the stock arms in place and for some that is a distinct benefit.
I DO NOT share your staunch distaste for the Ingalls arms. I do not agree with telling people they are shit, and not to buy them. I feel like they are still the simplest, most accommodating, and cost effective camber and toe correction solution available at this time. As someone who themselves has an engineering degree, been in the industry nearly 15 years, and done a lot of driving and work on people's TSXs and TLs I feel pretty confident over here.
You feel different. My evidence does not convince you, nor does yours me. We are all smart here, I can tell. You are just going to have to allow me to feel the way I do. "Agree to disagree" I think it is called?
We are encroaching on a place where you are challenging more than necessary to prove a point that I am not truly disputing. I am glad you dudes are happy! If it means getting rid of Ingalls and installing SPC then that is great, and we will certainly be true to our customers as we always have been. We are already planning a follow up to our camber-link article to address issues brought up here.
Let's just live on and be friends?
I am not trying to convince either of you that I am right and you are wrong...I agree that the stock arms have better ends than the Ingalls. I agree that the SPC kit allows you to keep the stock arms in place and for some that is a distinct benefit.
I DO NOT share your staunch distaste for the Ingalls arms. I do not agree with telling people they are shit, and not to buy them. I feel like they are still the simplest, most accommodating, and cost effective camber and toe correction solution available at this time. As someone who themselves has an engineering degree, been in the industry nearly 15 years, and done a lot of driving and work on people's TSXs and TLs I feel pretty confident over here.
You feel different. My evidence does not convince you, nor does yours me. We are all smart here, I can tell. You are just going to have to allow me to feel the way I do. "Agree to disagree" I think it is called?
We are encroaching on a place where you are challenging more than necessary to prove a point that I am not truly disputing. I am glad you dudes are happy! If it means getting rid of Ingalls and installing SPC then that is great, and we will certainly be true to our customers as we always have been. We are already planning a follow up to our camber-link article to address issues brought up here.
Let's just live on and be friends?
01-30-2015, 02:07 PM
#160
Three Wheelin'
TGIF 
