J-Power camber kit review
03-15-2017, 09:53 AM
#241
Better link. These look identical to a TL.
Red Rear Adjustable Alloy Camber Kit + Ball Joint Honda Accord 03-07 TSX 04-08 eBay
Red Rear Adjustable Alloy Camber Kit + Ball Joint Honda Accord 03-07 TSX 04-08 eBay
I'd buy a reputable brand with good bushings and ball joints.
Ultimately, I'd likely make my own from Acura genuine parts.
But that's not practical for most people.
If I were to pick something off the shelf, I'd likely go with Hardrace or SPC.
03-15-2017, 10:29 AM
#242
Drifting
The factory configuration is for the rear toe to go IN (positive) on compression, while camber goes negative.
When you lower the car, camber naturally goes negative. Toe naturally goes positive.agree
So...lets say you have all factory arms. when you lower the car, you go get a toe alignment. They will rotate the stock toe cam toward the NEGATIVE side to cancel out the natural excess positive toe. I'm not saying they use negative toe numbers? Numbers?...I'm saying they rotate the cam?.cam camber? Arm? toward negative to get to spec. Yes? yes.
Now lets say you're using an aftermarket means to add positive camber to make your camber angle more straight:
I believe you are right in saying that using an UPPER camber arm adjustment will cause toe to go out (negative).
Toe Out is positive. Not negative. It's when the front of the tire is more out away from the car, then point into the car.
Using UPPER camber arms is more advantageous in this case.
if the car is lowered and you adjust the toe arm to remove the excess positive toe, you still have a negative camber problem. So if you then push the top of the tire out with an longer upper control arm, you will push the knuckle out again, increasing positive toe. Thus needing to adjust the toe arm once again. It's a bad cycle. I think it's a more direct option to use a lower camber/toe arm because it adjusts both simultaneously and for on the cheap. Plus you can keep them both in sync with each other better, (toe and camber) as opposed to molding both separately. And it makes good sense because theyou both got out of sync together as well.
As it says above...Naturally, toe wants to go toward positive when you lower the car. Camber wants to go negative.agree
An upper camber arm will cause toe to go toward negative as you adjust camber positive.NO. If you adjust the camber more positive, you are pushing the top of the tire outward away from the car. And since the toe arm is grabbing he knuckle on the rear side of the knuckle, then when you push the tire/knuckle out away from the car, the knuckle will swivel outward on the front side. And the lower control arm as well as the upper arm can push out he knuckle. But the lower control arm, (aka camber/toe arm) will adjust both camber and toe simultaneously.
So the upper camber arm cancels the natural toe change and leaves a better adjusting delta in your stock toe cam.
The upper camber arm is advantageous in a few other ways as well.
One thing to keep in mind is that you are directly adjusting the top of the tyre. So...an upper camber arm will get the tire closer to the fender if you're trying to make the camber more positive. And will move the tyre further from the fender if you're adjusting for negative camber.
When you lower the car, camber naturally goes negative. Toe naturally goes positive.agree
So...lets say you have all factory arms. when you lower the car, you go get a toe alignment. They will rotate the stock toe cam toward the NEGATIVE side to cancel out the natural excess positive toe. I'm not saying they use negative toe numbers? Numbers?...I'm saying they rotate the cam?.cam camber? Arm? toward negative to get to spec. Yes? yes.
Now lets say you're using an aftermarket means to add positive camber to make your camber angle more straight:
I believe you are right in saying that using an UPPER camber arm adjustment will cause toe to go out (negative).
Toe Out is positive. Not negative. It's when the front of the tire is more out away from the car, then point into the car.
Using UPPER camber arms is more advantageous in this case.
if the car is lowered and you adjust the toe arm to remove the excess positive toe, you still have a negative camber problem. So if you then push the top of the tire out with an longer upper control arm, you will push the knuckle out again, increasing positive toe. Thus needing to adjust the toe arm once again. It's a bad cycle. I think it's a more direct option to use a lower camber/toe arm because it adjusts both simultaneously and for on the cheap. Plus you can keep them both in sync with each other better, (toe and camber) as opposed to molding both separately. And it makes good sense because theyou both got out of sync together as well.
As it says above...Naturally, toe wants to go toward positive when you lower the car. Camber wants to go negative.agree
An upper camber arm will cause toe to go toward negative as you adjust camber positive.NO. If you adjust the camber more positive, you are pushing the top of the tire outward away from the car. And since the toe arm is grabbing he knuckle on the rear side of the knuckle, then when you push the tire/knuckle out away from the car, the knuckle will swivel outward on the front side. And the lower control arm as well as the upper arm can push out he knuckle. But the lower control arm, (aka camber/toe arm) will adjust both camber and toe simultaneously.
So the upper camber arm cancels the natural toe change and leaves a better adjusting delta in your stock toe cam.
The upper camber arm is advantageous in a few other ways as well.
One thing to keep in mind is that you are directly adjusting the top of the tyre. So...an upper camber arm will get the tire closer to the fender if you're trying to make the camber more positive. And will move the tyre further from the fender if you're adjusting for negative camber.
The total best way to to have every arm adjustable so you can set the knuckle as close or as far from the frame as you want. And so you can adjust toe separately. But I'm just trying to get it to where the tires do not wear accessively fast. Like close to spec or maybe a bit better than specs.
There are probably different ways you can attack the beast. But just got to remember that on a lowered car, if you use an upper arm to adjust the camber to be more positive, to offset the introduced negative camber, then your toe will be waaaayyy positive, for 2 reasons. And that's why people have really bad wear on the inner shoulder of the tire because they are toe-out. And pushing the upper camber arm out, will also push the front of the tire out, creating more toe+, more than you had by just dropping it alone. THEY, you are forced to resolve toe out by getting an adjustable toe arm. So why not just stop the noise and use only 1 camber/toe lower arm and go from there. Then you can see what needs to be adjusted IF Anything. That might be enough right there with ano adjustable lower control arm. Again ultimately, the plan of attack should be on the arm that is causing the most trouble. So with that in mind, is the lower arm more responsible for kicking the bottom side of the tire out? Or is the upper arm more responsible for pull the upper part of the tire IN, creating that negative camber... my solution might be different than your because I am on a all oem system. If you have already installed various adjustable control arms, the you should be able to adjust out any problems already, and you wouldn't need to read all this..
Fyi, the front control arm does not affect camber or toe. It just swivels horizontally on the chassis mount, and the knuckle side just pivots up or down. So it's all about the other arms that we mentioned for camber and toe.
There
03-15-2017, 10:49 AM
#243
^I am 110% certain that toe out is negative. toe in is positive. This is the accepted nomenclature. For sure.
And any adjustment of camber will result in a toe change...and vice versa. Toe isn't adjusted at the vertical centerline of the spindle, IIRC...and the stock toe arm has bushings on 1 end. So...the angles have to be co-dependent in some way in that configuration.
Alignment CAMS are the offset eccentric washers that adjust the arm as you turn them. They are cam shaped. Or oval shaped.
And any adjustment of camber will result in a toe change...and vice versa. Toe isn't adjusted at the vertical centerline of the spindle, IIRC...and the stock toe arm has bushings on 1 end. So...the angles have to be co-dependent in some way in that configuration.
Alignment CAMS are the offset eccentric washers that adjust the arm as you turn them. They are cam shaped. Or oval shaped.
03-15-2017, 10:56 AM
#244
Drifting
Oh right. Toe Out is negative. But I'm still right about my assessment. Toe Out is pointing out.. that's what I mean
03-15-2017, 11:10 AM
#245
Drifting
Recap.since I can't edit crap on this site.
Lowering a car makes the camber go negative which is inward, and the toe goes negative which is outward.
With a stock setup, adjusting only the upper control arm, to push the top of the tire outward which is more positive, it only adds to the problem of toe out.
How you fix it is UP TO YOU.
But If you are really anal about fixing it perfect, with keeping the wheel centered, then you need to adjust all 3, toe arm, and lower control arm, and upper control arm. Otherwise, figure out if you want the tire centered closer to the car or further away. If you want it closer to the chassis or away from the fender, then buy a lower control arm. If you want it closer to the fender, then buy an upper control arm. But remember, and user control arm will add to the problem of TOE OUT. BUT A lower control arm will reduce Toe Out because you are pulling the knuckle closer to the car. So there is an added bonus to using the lower control arm to remove camber.
Are you happy now?
Lowering a car makes the camber go negative which is inward, and the toe goes negative which is outward.
With a stock setup, adjusting only the upper control arm, to push the top of the tire outward which is more positive, it only adds to the problem of toe out.
How you fix it is UP TO YOU.
But If you are really anal about fixing it perfect, with keeping the wheel centered, then you need to adjust all 3, toe arm, and lower control arm, and upper control arm. Otherwise, figure out if you want the tire centered closer to the car or further away. If you want it closer to the chassis or away from the fender, then buy a lower control arm. If you want it closer to the fender, then buy an upper control arm. But remember, and user control arm will add to the problem of TOE OUT. BUT A lower control arm will reduce Toe Out because you are pulling the knuckle closer to the car. So there is an added bonus to using the lower control arm to remove camber.
Are you happy now?
Last edited by Chad05TL; 03-15-2017 at 11:25 AM.
03-15-2017, 11:26 AM
#246
Recap.since I can't edit crap on this site.
Lowering a car makes the camber go negative which is inward, and the toe goes negative which is outward.
With a stock setup, adjusting only the upper control arm, to push the top of the tire outward which is more positive, it only adds to the problem of toe out.
How you fix it is UP TO YOU.
Lowering a car makes the camber go negative which is inward, and the toe goes negative which is outward.
With a stock setup, adjusting only the upper control arm, to push the top of the tire outward which is more positive, it only adds to the problem of toe out.
How you fix it is UP TO YOU.
Inability of editing on this site is sometimes a pain.
I don't think *rear* toe goes OUT as you lower the car, though.
It would create an extremely unsafe handling situation if a rear wheel toed out under compression.
When cornering, the outer wheel compresses. If that outer wheel toed OUT on compression, the car would oversteer suddenly.
Every time the wheels hit a bump on the highway, you'd have toe out at 80mph.
For those reasons, manufacturers use toe IN on compression. The rear suspensions on the TSX, Accord, Civic, and even S2000 and NSX toe IN on compression.
The TL probably has less toe in on compression than other cars because it uses a bearing on one end of the toe arm...but it certainly won't toe OUT on compression.
03-15-2017, 11:31 AM
#247
Why the hostility, friend? I was just adding to what you said. And you were questioning/second guessing what you had said yourself.
My first post was dependent on the understanding of toe in/out as related to toe pos/neg. If you flip the relationship, the post no longer makes sense. I was just reassuring that the angle relations were as I had described, thats all.
Ultimately, I'm just adding info because it sounded like you had a question. Obviously, you're free to do what you want to your car. I'm just suggesting and demonstrating that one method may work better for you than others.
My blanket recommendation is to use the UCA for camber correction unless you have fender space issues. Its the most simple and advantageous method as long as you use good quality parts.
I'd recommend using the stock toe arm until it runs out of adjustment. It has a bearing end, which is nice, and is simple enough to adjust.
Last edited by BROlando; 03-15-2017 at 11:36 AM.
03-15-2017, 11:35 AM
#248
Drifting
No woorries. I'm not hostile. Don't read too much into that...
But That makes sense about why lowering should not make a car go toe out... But how my TL is so far toe'd out I do not know.
But That makes sense about why lowering should not make a car go toe out... But how my TL is so far toe'd out I do not know.
03-15-2017, 11:38 AM
#249
Burning Brakes
TRD I thought you were promoting the ingalls by making that post directly above saying they have new bushings. And I was comparing heeltoe to the ingalls on ebay.. it's about double. So anyway I don't care which brand is best.. I'm just following what you guys say. So whatever you say is fine with me.. I will check out SPC. I have somehow began to have wear (cupping) on the inside of my rear tires. I know this is toed out. And I only have eibach springs on the rear. So I'm only down about an inch. I can see it has some negative camber, but camber won't cause cupping type wear.. I will see how much I can move the oem arm before I buy. But it may be a good idea to change it anyway at 85k miles. Only guessing the bushings may have play..
03-15-2017, 11:39 AM
#250
Just making sure I didn't mistakenly offend anyone.
Anyway, maybe the rear of the cars you've seen toe out under compression due to worn bushings or overly adjusted toe cams.
A lowered front suspension will toe out naturally, though, IIRC.
03-15-2017, 11:58 AM
#251
Burning Brakes
^
This WAS the case with Ingalls Engineering 2 lower control arms even after alignment. Toe out. Again, read the first 6 pages. Very soft bushings were used. 3 years, 6 alignments, toe was always messed up, most of the time negative toe. I still have the alignment sheets if you'd like to look at them.
This WAS the case with Ingalls Engineering 2 lower control arms even after alignment. Toe out. Again, read the first 6 pages. Very soft bushings were used. 3 years, 6 alignments, toe was always messed up, most of the time negative toe. I still have the alignment sheets if you'd like to look at them.
Last edited by t-rd; 03-15-2017 at 12:02 PM.
03-15-2017, 12:08 PM
#252
Read my comments again and you'll learn that I am NOT promoting Ingalls Engineering products whatsoever, I'm 100% bashing them to hell because of mine and many others' experiences. So you are throwing all these facts about alignment specs, and yet you are proposing to get cheap parts off ebay. How about reading the previous 6 pages to learn what transpired with the Ingalls Engineering lower control arms + crappy bushings and why that setup didn't work out. My 07 Accord V6 is lowered on Honda OEM HFP suspension, which lowers the car just 1", which is your same situation. If you don't want any alignment problems, use SPC or Hardrace ONLY. If you want a ery wide range of adjustment, then get the Hardrace arms. If you are lowered less than 2", then get the SPC upper control arms. DONE. You don't need to come up with a PhD thesis to make this work.
1.) I did not go to medical school for 20 years to NOT give a PhD thesis.
2.) I did not go to medical school.
3.) I'm with you on SPC/HR.
4.) I've been preaching minimalization of alignment component mods so long that I think I once told a dinosaur to only buy UCA's to fix his camber unless he absolutely needed something more.
5.) For some reason, its kinda lost on Acura people that modifying a car is complex. Mo mods, mo considerations, as the BIG once rapped about.
In all seriousness....I think that taking steps to figure out and ask why/how/what before modifying saves a lot of headache later. If someone would have asked questions and gotten answers BEFORE buying (or manufacturing/selling) kits with krispy kreme soft donut bushings as an overkill "solution", there wouldn't be all this mess.
03-15-2017, 12:09 PM
#253
^
This WAS the case with Ingalls Engineering 2 lower control arms even after alignment. Toe out. Again, read the first 6 pages. Very soft bushings were used. 3 years, 6 alignments, toe was always messed up, most of the time negative toe. I still have the alignment sheets if you'd like to look at them.
This WAS the case with Ingalls Engineering 2 lower control arms even after alignment. Toe out. Again, read the first 6 pages. Very soft bushings were used. 3 years, 6 alignments, toe was always messed up, most of the time negative toe. I still have the alignment sheets if you'd like to look at them.
I needed to read 0 pages to see that a 75 arm LCA based kit full of aftermarket shitbushings was a bad idea.
Last edited by BROlando; 03-15-2017 at 12:11 PM.
03-22-2017, 08:27 PM
#254
Drifting
Read my comments again and you'll learn that I am NOT promoting Ingalls Engineering products whatsoever, I'm 100% bashing them to hell because of mine and many others' experiences. So you are throwing all these facts about alignment specs, and yet you are proposing to get cheap parts off ebay. How about reading the previous 6 pages to learn what transpired with the Ingalls Engineering lower control arms + crappy bushings and why that setup didn't work out. My 07 Accord V6 is lowered on Honda OEM HFP suspension, which lowers the car just 1", which is your same situation. If you don't want any alignment problems, use SPC or Hardrace ONLY. If you want a ery wide range of adjustment, then get the Hardrace arms. If you are lowered less than 2", then get the SPC upper control arms. DONE. You don't need to come up with a PhD thesis to make this work.
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