HT-Spec Tuning - Function&Form Type-2 Damper - TL Specific Application
04-07-2010, 09:48 AM
#1
HT-Spec Tuning - Function&Form Type-2 Damper - TL Specific Application
Pay attention here guys....The TL is NEXT!!!!!!! Your feedback could help us shorten R&D time on the TL kit once the TSX one is done.
I have been talking with F2 for about a month now about making a kit for the TSX that fits without any grinding (the current kit is an Accord kit that needs to be modded slightly to fit the TSX).
Well, yesterday was my first chance to get in, meet Rob and Preston, and talk dirt on how we would design and market a damper kit for the TL. The goal here is to make a damper kit that is:
* affordable for the TSX/TL audience (with damper kit options at $700 and $1100)
* highly adjustable for height (serving both 1" drops and tire-tuckers)
* high end street performance (likes to rail corners, not likely to visit the track)
* refined ride that is sporty but comfortable (similar to what a 3-series with a sport package feels like, where you can really feel the road, but it doesn't bit your butt too hard)
The big benefit here being that I, with unsurpassed installation and driving experience in TSXs & TLs, could lead a first-hand customer driven tuning approach to a damper kit. This could well turn out to be THE best street sports/performance option for everyone here. First, driving impressions. Second, some pics.
Initial impressions.
Before I even got out the driveway, I could tell the front was way too soft and the rear was way too stiff (medium settings at all 4 dampers). The car felt like it was on a washboard yet the front end felt strangely disconnected. I can't imagine how this feels in a V6 accord, it must be really odd. In the TSX, it is flat wrong.
After cruising for a while I stopped for gas and moved the front 8 clicks firmer and the rear 8 clicks softer. It helped a little bit, but as I learned at F&F, this damper kit does not make the night and day change that an N+ would have, lock to lock*. You can really feel the road but it is not harsh per say. That is the firm rubber upper mount at work, which is good**. But the rear was still so firm in the back, the ride was too uncomfortable. Softer springs are needed in the back and firmer ones would be nice in the front.
My next stop after F2 was to AAI (Buddy Club) where I tossed 2 sets of N+ in the trunk (irony? haha). With the additional 100 lbs or so in the trunk and a now-full tank of gas (about another 90-100 lbs), the car started to feel more comfortable, if still a bit on the firm side. I find that when you go over dips in the road the suspension in the front seems to lack droop / down-travel to be comfortable. Possibly there needs to be a bit longer stroke so that when on the freeway the suspension has a chance to rebound into drop-off situations to carry the car better and the road drops away. As it is now, if the road does one of those long smooth dips (like on the freeway) the car seems to fall into the dip which creates this startling weightless feeling. The body is well controlled but this feeling is too uncomfortable for my customers. So, we need to tweak that.
I ended up taking Santiago canyon home, which is about 45-55 mph 2-lane back road (not a "canyon run"). The road is smooth and feels really fast with this suspension. The ride was good (no bumps or dips) and the car seemed to track really well. There is a good feeling of stability and control. In the back of my head I know there was still 200lbs in the car that was helping smooth it out though.
At the end of Santiago Canyon is Live Oak Canyon (my own little touge 1 mile from home
)
Sucky vid of it, I think I need to do my own
YouTube - Live Oak Canyon run
Anyway I get through this thing in the top of third and some chances for WOT in 4th, no 2nd gears and I don't think you get over 80 if you are being prudent (it is really very unsafe here). There are lots of good brake-in, gas out high camber 3rd gear turns and some right-left transitions. With the car set how it was it felt fairly well balanced and confident. The rear camber really helped maintain grip in the back, but there did not seem to be much understeer at all. I did feel some loss of traction on the front outside wheel under acceleration out of turns, but this thing hasn't been aligned yet so there is too much toe-in also. Lastly on the alignment, camber on this car tends not to change a lot in the front but in the rear you get a lot of change. Most people correct the rear camber and leave the front alone. I am thinking more front camber would help front end grip a lot, and "fixing" the rear could well induce some oversteer. For now I am going to install a camber kit so that I can control and equalize the camber, but I can't see putting rear camber back to zero (or even factory spec) as a good thing, from a street performance perspective. Tire wear is a non-issue, especially if you take corners faster than your Mom does.
The car does have the stock rear sway bar and this suspension raises a serious doubt as to the need to upgrade the stock one. That is, until I remember the extra weight I was carrying. So at this point I pulled off and adjusted the rear just a bit more soft (4 more clicks, almost full soft at this point) to see how it would handle with a "better riding" setting, knowing that if it felt too soft with more understeer the rear sway bar could be changed to fix that). With the new setting (now 3/4 or so firm in front and full soft on the rear, bunch of weight in the back) the car stayed just as confident with maybe a touch loss in speed, but then again, feeling slow and smooth is faster most of the time. What I really liked was that you could feel the rear digging in as you throttle out of turns. You can manage the weight of the car well. A rear sway bar could get a better feeling of rotation but probably is not needed for street speed. This still needs to be re-evaluated with more front camber and firmer front rates though.
* Having a closer damper range setting is really a good thing. Tein tunes their dampers this way. What it means is, there is a lot less range in the adjustment allowing for a much finer tune on the damper settings. The dampers are valved for a specific spring rate which makes the refinement very high. N+ and many others have a very wide damper click range, meaning they can use one damper for lots of different cars and spring rates...cheaper to make, less refined, on the surface seems like a nice feature but you get a bit less for the $ really.
** Pillow mounts can transmit more noise and harshness, while rubber mounts tend to absorb vibration and noise much better. The firm rubber in the F2 Type-2 system strikes a great balance between stability and comfort.
Pics
I don't have any pics of the height, that is irrelevant, this kit will let you hit nearly any height from 1"-drop to laying frame so that is a moot argument. My car has about a zero tire gap now.
Note the Eibach springs on the kit we tested. The Type-1 kits come with F2 springs, and the Type-2 kits we offer will come with Eibachs. Believe it or not, this is an official relationship. Eibach actually brought in and tested F2 dampers for quality and function before agreeing to become a partner, which really opened my eyes a bit. I initially made the mistake of F2 being a "cheapie" coilover company, and clearly I was wrong. These twin-tube dampers are well on par with the best street parts we get, and the only thing lacking is rebuilding opportunity.
We also spec'd the rear damper bracket so that the TSX specific kit will not need any grinding to fit right.
UPDATE 4/13/10
I got a few PMs on this project now and spoke w/ Function/Form on this kit.
There are two items to consider.
1: The front upper mount: We are supplying F2 with a new OEM upper mount from a TL to get a prototype made for the 3G TL upper mount bolt pattern. They should have the part shipped off within a week and we will then expect about 45-60 days to get product back so we can sell a 3G TL specific FITMENT kit.
2: Shock valving and spring rates: Make it "HT-Spec!" A lot of folks are seemingly happy with the results of a F2 Accord kit on their TL, but I would like to do for the TL what I am doing for the TSX right now, which is going through trials and testing the actual function of the kit in real-world driving. The goal here is to make a good street-able kit that has a LOW and smooth ride for VIP people (Type-1 non adjustable) and a more highly tuned kit aimed more at performance on the street which absorbs bumps well and has the ability to dial in a great handling car (Type-2 adjustable) without pissing off passengers. Both kits would be sort of similar in their feel but one is more focused on cost effectiveness and stylish daily driving, while the other is more focused on upping the sports quotient of the car to make it more competitive with European brands.
COMMENTS!!!!!
I have been talking with F2 for about a month now about making a kit for the TSX that fits without any grinding (the current kit is an Accord kit that needs to be modded slightly to fit the TSX).
Well, yesterday was my first chance to get in, meet Rob and Preston, and talk dirt on how we would design and market a damper kit for the TL. The goal here is to make a damper kit that is:
* affordable for the TSX/TL audience (with damper kit options at $700 and $1100)
* highly adjustable for height (serving both 1" drops and tire-tuckers)
* high end street performance (likes to rail corners, not likely to visit the track)
* refined ride that is sporty but comfortable (similar to what a 3-series with a sport package feels like, where you can really feel the road, but it doesn't bit your butt too hard)
The big benefit here being that I, with unsurpassed installation and driving experience in TSXs & TLs, could lead a first-hand customer driven tuning approach to a damper kit. This could well turn out to be THE best street sports/performance option for everyone here. First, driving impressions. Second, some pics.
Initial impressions.
Before I even got out the driveway, I could tell the front was way too soft and the rear was way too stiff (medium settings at all 4 dampers). The car felt like it was on a washboard yet the front end felt strangely disconnected. I can't imagine how this feels in a V6 accord, it must be really odd. In the TSX, it is flat wrong.
After cruising for a while I stopped for gas and moved the front 8 clicks firmer and the rear 8 clicks softer. It helped a little bit, but as I learned at F&F, this damper kit does not make the night and day change that an N+ would have, lock to lock*. You can really feel the road but it is not harsh per say. That is the firm rubber upper mount at work, which is good**. But the rear was still so firm in the back, the ride was too uncomfortable. Softer springs are needed in the back and firmer ones would be nice in the front.
My next stop after F2 was to AAI (Buddy Club) where I tossed 2 sets of N+ in the trunk (irony? haha). With the additional 100 lbs or so in the trunk and a now-full tank of gas (about another 90-100 lbs), the car started to feel more comfortable, if still a bit on the firm side. I find that when you go over dips in the road the suspension in the front seems to lack droop / down-travel to be comfortable. Possibly there needs to be a bit longer stroke so that when on the freeway the suspension has a chance to rebound into drop-off situations to carry the car better and the road drops away. As it is now, if the road does one of those long smooth dips (like on the freeway) the car seems to fall into the dip which creates this startling weightless feeling. The body is well controlled but this feeling is too uncomfortable for my customers. So, we need to tweak that.
I ended up taking Santiago canyon home, which is about 45-55 mph 2-lane back road (not a "canyon run"). The road is smooth and feels really fast with this suspension. The ride was good (no bumps or dips) and the car seemed to track really well. There is a good feeling of stability and control. In the back of my head I know there was still 200lbs in the car that was helping smooth it out though.
At the end of Santiago Canyon is Live Oak Canyon (my own little touge 1 mile from home
)Sucky vid of it, I think I need to do my own
YouTube - Live Oak Canyon run
Anyway I get through this thing in the top of third and some chances for WOT in 4th, no 2nd gears and I don't think you get over 80 if you are being prudent (it is really very unsafe here). There are lots of good brake-in, gas out high camber 3rd gear turns and some right-left transitions. With the car set how it was it felt fairly well balanced and confident. The rear camber really helped maintain grip in the back, but there did not seem to be much understeer at all. I did feel some loss of traction on the front outside wheel under acceleration out of turns, but this thing hasn't been aligned yet so there is too much toe-in also. Lastly on the alignment, camber on this car tends not to change a lot in the front but in the rear you get a lot of change. Most people correct the rear camber and leave the front alone. I am thinking more front camber would help front end grip a lot, and "fixing" the rear could well induce some oversteer. For now I am going to install a camber kit so that I can control and equalize the camber, but I can't see putting rear camber back to zero (or even factory spec) as a good thing, from a street performance perspective. Tire wear is a non-issue, especially if you take corners faster than your Mom does.
The car does have the stock rear sway bar and this suspension raises a serious doubt as to the need to upgrade the stock one. That is, until I remember the extra weight I was carrying. So at this point I pulled off and adjusted the rear just a bit more soft (4 more clicks, almost full soft at this point) to see how it would handle with a "better riding" setting, knowing that if it felt too soft with more understeer the rear sway bar could be changed to fix that). With the new setting (now 3/4 or so firm in front and full soft on the rear, bunch of weight in the back) the car stayed just as confident with maybe a touch loss in speed, but then again, feeling slow and smooth is faster most of the time. What I really liked was that you could feel the rear digging in as you throttle out of turns. You can manage the weight of the car well. A rear sway bar could get a better feeling of rotation but probably is not needed for street speed. This still needs to be re-evaluated with more front camber and firmer front rates though.
* Having a closer damper range setting is really a good thing. Tein tunes their dampers this way. What it means is, there is a lot less range in the adjustment allowing for a much finer tune on the damper settings. The dampers are valved for a specific spring rate which makes the refinement very high. N+ and many others have a very wide damper click range, meaning they can use one damper for lots of different cars and spring rates...cheaper to make, less refined, on the surface seems like a nice feature but you get a bit less for the $ really.
** Pillow mounts can transmit more noise and harshness, while rubber mounts tend to absorb vibration and noise much better. The firm rubber in the F2 Type-2 system strikes a great balance between stability and comfort.
Pics
I don't have any pics of the height, that is irrelevant, this kit will let you hit nearly any height from 1"-drop to laying frame so that is a moot argument. My car has about a zero tire gap now.
Note the Eibach springs on the kit we tested. The Type-1 kits come with F2 springs, and the Type-2 kits we offer will come with Eibachs. Believe it or not, this is an official relationship. Eibach actually brought in and tested F2 dampers for quality and function before agreeing to become a partner, which really opened my eyes a bit. I initially made the mistake of F2 being a "cheapie" coilover company, and clearly I was wrong. These twin-tube dampers are well on par with the best street parts we get, and the only thing lacking is rebuilding opportunity.
We also spec'd the rear damper bracket so that the TSX specific kit will not need any grinding to fit right.
UPDATE 4/13/10
I got a few PMs on this project now and spoke w/ Function/Form on this kit.
There are two items to consider.
1: The front upper mount: We are supplying F2 with a new OEM upper mount from a TL to get a prototype made for the 3G TL upper mount bolt pattern. They should have the part shipped off within a week and we will then expect about 45-60 days to get product back so we can sell a 3G TL specific FITMENT kit.
2: Shock valving and spring rates: Make it "HT-Spec!" A lot of folks are seemingly happy with the results of a F2 Accord kit on their TL, but I would like to do for the TL what I am doing for the TSX right now, which is going through trials and testing the actual function of the kit in real-world driving. The goal here is to make a good street-able kit that has a LOW and smooth ride for VIP people (Type-1 non adjustable) and a more highly tuned kit aimed more at performance on the street which absorbs bumps well and has the ability to dial in a great handling car (Type-2 adjustable) without pissing off passengers. Both kits would be sort of similar in their feel but one is more focused on cost effectiveness and stylish daily driving, while the other is more focused on upping the sports quotient of the car to make it more competitive with European brands.
COMMENTS!!!!!
04-10-2010, 12:51 PM
#2
Got some replacement springs for the rear today, the 8kg are way too firm for a street setup IMO.
Testing some 5 and 6 kg tomorrow!
Are TL folks interested in a setup like this one? We are planning to make this kit for the TL also. You can put the car on the floor and we are trying to tune for a good street ride...
Testing some 5 and 6 kg tomorrow!
Are TL folks interested in a setup like this one? We are planning to make this kit for the TL also. You can put the car on the floor and we are trying to tune for a good street ride...
I was looking at Accord's application, but I think I should wait now. 
Trending Topics
04-12-2010, 02:00 PM
#8
Installed some softer springs in the rear and the ride is MUCH better. Just need the front dampers a little firmer and the rear dampers a bit softer...working with F2 right now on it.
You can literally make the car un-driveably low with this kit. The ground is the limit.
Marcus
You can literally make the car un-driveably low with this kit. The ground is the limit.
Marcus
04-12-2010, 04:07 PM
#10
no the ground is not the limit... you can have the car resting on its side skirts and bumpers. lol like seriously. my f2s arent even half way down and the car is pretty low. i know its a tsx, but all F2s go equally as low lol.
04-13-2010, 05:52 AM
#12
Great work Heel Toe!
Too bad these weren't available when I was buying years ago.
I would not go with Megans. I never liked how they delete the lower bushing on the rear shock body. IMO until this point, it was either H&R or Tien.
-
Too bad these weren't available when I was buying years ago.
I would not go with Megans. I never liked how they delete the lower bushing on the rear shock body. IMO until this point, it was either H&R or Tien.
-
04-13-2010, 02:28 PM
#13
Just to clarify, how is "you can have the car resting on its side skirts and bumpers" not the same as saying "the ground is the limit?"
I meant, you can lower the car to the point where it is sitting on the ground. that is the limit!
04-13-2010, 02:58 PM
#16
The one major advantage you get with HT-Spec tuning is that the engineer who is developing the tuning of the parts is also the same dude who has been installing suspensions on TLs for Acurazine customers for the last 5 years and knows the ins and outs of what you guys really are looking for in a kit. We want to eliminate the whole "which kit should I get" question by making a kit that 90% of you will all want because it was designed specifically with you in mind!
Marcus
I just ordered my wheels and now I need a drop... Excellent timing my man!
05-04-2010, 01:15 AM
#34
marcus quick question..i had the f2 kit on my 05 tsx until in nov i got a 07 type s so my question is what would i need to do to make the f2s i have now fit on my 07 tl-s?
