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Hi folks - just had my 04TL to Firestone for the second time for an alignment. The last time, I was told there was a frozen nut on the driver side front, preventing adjustment. I had the tie rod replaced by my mechanic and returned to Firestone for the alignment (I have their lifetime alignment package). I was surprised to hear again that the tech couldn't align the same wheel and I protested, telling the tech my mechanic had replaced the rod and freed anything needing adjustment. He called over his supervisor who then seemed to be explaining a few things to him. They told me to wait and 20 minutes later, the wheel was magically aliigned. But the passenger front camber was still off as well as the passenger rear camber and toe. When I asked about
this, the tech, no longer accompanied by his supervisor, mumbled something about possible strut issues. Needless to say, I'm not confident I got a competent tech. But it's possible that there are other issues, of course. I plead neophyte here and am posting an image of the results. Any feedback is truly appreciated!
Camber is not directly adjustable. It changes as a byproduct of changing toe angles.
Your camber readings are out of spec, but not bad enough to do anything about.
Your rear toe, however....IS adjustable. And IS something to worry about.
The Firestone tech may not be great with words. Maybe he was trying to tell you the front camber is not adjustable? And that your rear toe adjuster is stuck?
Why did your mechanic replace the front tie rod? If he had to replace the tie rod...he already freed the stuck nut...which I thought was the only issue. So, why replace the tie rod?
Solutions:
Ask for the reason for not adjusting rear toe.
Fix that issue. You need that to be adjusted to spec.
Forget about the camber and live your life. Unless you want a more complex solution.
The complex solution is buying a camber kit. I don't recommend this.
Note...if the rear toe adjuster is stuck and has to be cut out...buy the parts at Acura.
You don't have much choice on the adjuster itself...its an Acura/Honda specific part. But do not buy an aftermarket toe arm. The factory toe arm has a bearing rather than a bushing. Aftermarket arms just come with rubber bushings, which I would not recommend.
Camber is not directly adjustable. It changes as a byproduct of changing toe angles.
Your camber readings are out of spec, but not bad enough to do anything about.
Your rear toe, however....IS adjustable. And IS something to worry about.
The Firestone tech may not be great with words. Maybe he was trying to tell you the front camber is not adjustable? And that your rear toe adjuster is stuck?
Why did your mechanic replace the front tie rod? If he had to replace the tie rod...he already freed the stuck nut...which I thought was the only issue. So, why replace the tie rod?
Solutions:
Ask for the reason for not adjusting rear toe.
Fix that issue. You need that to be adjusted to spec.
Forget about the camber and live your life. Unless you want a more complex solution.
The complex solution is buying a camber kit. I don't recommend this.
Note...if the rear toe adjuster is stuck and has to be cut out...buy the parts at Acura.
You don't have much choice on the adjuster itself...its an Acura/Honda specific part. But do not buy an aftermarket toe arm. The factory toe arm has a bearing rather than a bushing. Aftermarket arms just come with rubber bushings, which I would not recommend.
acuraoemparts.com or curryacuraparts.com
Thanks for your reply - My mechanic (who I've gone to since '78 and trust not to do unnecessary work) replaced the tie rod because it needed replacement, not because of the stuck nut. This of course also took care of the stuck nut issue Firestone couldn't address.
Yes, I'll give the tech the benefit of the doubt that he was just not a great communicator, but the fact that he had given up on the front until his supervisor intervened (only when I made a case of it) and showed him how to address it is what makes me question his competence.
I'll trust that if you're advising not to bother with the camber readings, that there won't be a dramatic effect on tire wear as is? That's my main concern.
As to the rear toe, thanks for the advice about using an OEM part if needed. He didn't say anything about it being stuck, though, so I may take it to another location to have that assessed.
Toe is the leading cause of tire issues. Your RR tire is going to wear massively fast due to the large amount of toe, coupled with the camber. Toe will wear tires, and will also use the camber to facilitate additional uneven wear.
Your front camber is not worth troubling over.
Your rear camber, now that I took a 2nd look, might be something you address (assuming the alignment tech measured correctly).
When you have the tech fix the toe, the camber will go further negative, making the toe issue better...but camber issue worse. At about 2.5 deg of camber, you will absolutely start seeing some adverse tire wear.
Explaining a bit:
The rear suspension is designed to move with camber and toe changing together.
As camber goes negative, toe goes positive.
Or Camber IN = Toe IN
The reverse is also true. Camber positive, toe negative.
Or Camber OUT = toe OUT.
Your RR suspension is toed OUT already.
So if he brings the toe IN, he will also cause more negative camber.
There may be some issue with the rear suspension. Usually sagging bushings, or bent knuckles or control arms. In very rare cases, sagged out springs.
Options...
Fix what is wrong. This can get pricey and will take diagnosis.
Get a camber kit. I recommend getting a Hardrace or Megan adjustable upper control arm. This isn't fixing what's wrong. Its just forcing the suspension back into geometry. This is usually the way people go, considering the age and remaining useful life of these cars.
Have your tech look to see what issue might be present. Ask for recommendations.
Taking a step back,
Maybe the first step should be going back to Firestone and asking about the rear toe. Why was it not adjusted?
Ask them to re-align it properly if they can (assuming the toe adjuster is not stuck). Then see where the camber/toe end up.
Reformatting my answer for clarity, since this site doesn't allow editing.
Step 1.
Head back to Firestone, ask why they didn't adust the RR toe.
The adjuster is stuck, more often than not.
If the adjuster is not stuck, ask them to realign it properly, with the understanding that only toe is adjustable. Tell them to just fix the toe. Tell them not to try to compensate toe for camber. Just get toe into spec, ignoring camber.
See where your camber lies after that.
Step 2 (if needed).
Your options are to fix the issue (expensive, involved, but the right thing to do).
Or get a camber kit. This does not address the root issue, but is much easier in comparison.
Toe is the leading cause of tire issues. Your RR tire is going to wear massively fast due to the large amount of toe, coupled with the camber. Toe will wear tires, and will also use the camber to facilitate additional uneven wear.
Your front camber is not worth troubling over.
Your rear camber, now that I took a 2nd look, might be something you address (assuming the alignment tech measured correctly).
When you have the tech fix the toe, the camber will go further negative, making the toe issue better...but camber issue worse. At about 2.5 deg of camber, you will absolutely start seeing some adverse tire wear.
Explaining a bit:
The rear suspension is designed to move with camber and toe changing together.
As camber goes negative, toe goes positive.
Or Camber IN = Toe IN
The reverse is also true. Camber positive, toe negative.
Or Camber OUT = toe OUT.
Your RR suspension is toed OUT already.
So if he brings the toe IN, he will also cause more negative camber.
There may be some issue with the rear suspension. Usually sagging bushings, or bent knuckles or control arms. In very rare cases, sagged out springs.
Options...
Fix what is wrong. This can get pricey and will take diagnosis.
Get a camber kit. I recommend getting a Hardrace or Megan adjustable upper control arm. This isn't fixing what's wrong. Its just forcing the suspension back into geometry. This is usually the way people go, considering the age and remaining useful life of these cars.
Have your tech look to see what issue might be present. Ask for recommendations.
Taking a step back,
Maybe the first step should be going back to Firestone and asking about the rear toe. Why was it not adjusted?
Ask them to re-align it properly if they can (assuming the toe adjuster is not stuck). Then see where the camber/toe end up.
Thanks so much - I'm going to start with a call to Firestone to assess why the rear toe adjustment wasn't made. I'll probably ask for a second look from another Firestone tech as well. Then, if nothing can be done adjustment wise, I'll talk to my mechanic about installing one of the kits you're speaking of and go from there.
Following up on my original post, just took it back to Firestone after talking to the manager. He hooked me up with his head tech, who got it into reasonable alignment, I think. The guy at the desk there told me the kid who worked on it last time wasn't " as experienced".
What I'm confused about is how far off the "before" measurements are on today's summary from the printout I got from them when I left on the 7th. I drove a total of about 50 miles since and didn't hit any potholes or anything that should have thrown it off much. Also don't get why the front caster measurements on today's printout are greyed out when they weren't last time.
Mainly I'm looking for thoughts on whether it looks good to go now or if the rear camber should be a concern.
.
They didn't do a caster sweep this time. They just slapped the laser heads on, touched up the toe measurements and let you go.
Concerning your "before" measurements being "off" this time...
The front alignment seems "off" from last time because the new tech had the steering wheel turned a little bit to the left, as compared to the original tech. Just an eyeball difference between two techs. So...normal.
As far as the rear...maybe the previous tech did not install the heads onto your rear wheels correctly last time....or you have a badly bent wheel (?)
Hard to make a real assessment on the big delta in your rear alignment measurements.
From this new "after" readout, however, there aren't any angles to worry about.
They didn't do a caster sweep this time. They just slapped the laser heads on, touched up the toe measurements and let you go.
Concerning your "before" measurements being "off" this time...
The front alignment seems "off" from last time because the new tech had the steering wheel turned a little bit to the left, as compared to the original tech. Just an eyeball difference between two techs. So...normal.
As far as the rear...maybe the previous tech did not install the heads onto your rear wheels correctly last time....or you have a badly bent wheel (?)
Hard to make a real assessment on the big delta in your rear alignment measurements.
From this new "after" readout, however, there aren't any angles to worry about.
Thanks for your reply - once I replace the tires (elsewhere) and have the wheels checked for bends, I'll go back after a few weeks and have the same tech reassess.
12-08-2023, 08:20 AM
