hello everyone!!!
Looking for the best coilover that gives stock feel since aspec is discountined. I have 07 Type-S 6MT just need some advice and direction I want OEM feel in the new coilovers . Thanks in advance!

 

Honestly, with every coilover that I have put on my car and my friends car's...felt like or better than stock at full soft settings

 

tein ssp

 

I've been on Tein street Advance on my Type s for about a week now and love it. a tad bit stiffer than oem. Have the front and rear dampening set at 8 and feels great to me

 

None of them that I can find feel better than stock because the manufacturers are completely stupid. Yes, you read that right, I'm calling them allstupid. Why? Because the TL is a LUXURY car, not a true sports sedan like the M5, nor will it ever handle like an M5...yet all the manufacturers produce MUCH stiffer than stock springs. This is partly due to the TL now coming down to the Civic crowd price range, and partly because it's the way it has always been done. There is absolutely no need for 12F/6R on a car that comes from the factory with 4F/2R, even if you're slamming the hell out of it. Thankfully some manufacturers are seeing the light and making "luxury" rates (close to stock), but I don't think they have made it to the TL yet.

And before it's mentioned, there are some fanboi's on here way under-damping their struts and bouncing like a hooptie down the Interstate, but I don't consider that a viable option.

 

these are the ones that I'm leaning towards u think I should replace any other suspension parts that might need replacing since I will be down there replacing the shocks?

 

Koni Yellows

 

Haha - the stock feel was too boat like for me - but i hear you on seeing the "hoopties" bouncing around. but with the fitment I wanted and the amount of drop i wanted I needed to go stiffer on the spring rates - 12f/10r, i might even have to get a bit higher on rates to eliminate some more of the bounce, and dampening is about 15 clicks from soft (almost mid point to hard). trying to get the best of all worlds - toy and daily i hear where you're coming from though brother.

 

always good to check your ball joints/axles - depending on how much you are looking to drop, you def will be placing more stress on those components, you will also need to check the rear tow/camber arms depending on age you may need to replace as you will not be able to dial in alignment with froze tow/camber arms. I think the street basis and advance do not come with new top hats, whereas the street flex i believe do - would recommend buying new top hats (depending on level of Tein you get) and this way you can pull your old suspension out in one piece.

 

It's so hard to find the right compromise. I have 12F/6R and have a new set of 10F/4R that I'm going to install soon, but I'm not slammed, so that makes it work. I also never have people in the back, which helps.

 

I think this is a generalization. There are plenty of good quality kits out there. I didn't feel like Tein SA's were bouncy. But they were floaty at the recommended settings of -8. If you turn the damper stiffer... to about -5 or -4, it takes care of that.

The issue with the TL...and most stock hondas is the ride over small/succesive bumps. It feels like too much compression damping...and the car ends up skipping over stuff, even with soft spring rates.

I felt like the Teins definitely improved the driving dynamic and ride over the stock dampers.

I won't compare it to a M5 because its nothing like a M5.

You shouldn't set dampers by clicking them from soft. You should close the valve (full stiff) and count clicks backward. That's the most accurate way to set a valve, as there will be variations in actual port opening/bypass force.

Which coilover are you using?

Most Teins can be clicked back 32 times....but anything softer than 16 from full stiff can damage the damper. A stupid design...but it is mentioned in the manual.

12/10 is a really strange spring combo. The rear of the TL has a much higher wheel rate than the front. So your rear spring is incredibly stiff in comparison to the front.

Setting the shock soft and getting stiffer springs will result in MORE bounce.

 

If you're using a reputable damper and your car is bouncing:
-The dampers are worn
-You're riding on bumpstops from being too low or having improper preload setting
-if you spec'd custom springs...they're too stiff
-you have the damper set incorrectly

 

Roland......I'm at like 24'' fender to ground so my car is fairly low, and I'm experiencing some bouncienss with the TEIN FLEX system. Dampers are not worn as the suspension was bought brand new and might have 1k miles on them lol. I have my dampers at 4 from full stiff. What do you suggest I do with the preload? This was not touched as I figured preload would be good right out of the box

 

Well...its semi complicated as to what the exact correct amount of preload would be. You're adding or removing preload to get a certain amount of compression AND droop travel. The shock has a finite amount of movement, and you'd need to split that up between % droop and % compression.

Free travel is the amount of travel the shock shaft has before touching the bumpstop.

You'd need an initial (unloaded) free travel measurement...but what you're after is static free travel.

If your car is on the ground and your shock shaft has 1" to go before contacting bumpstop, that's 1" of free travel at static height (example).

You'd need data on the stock suspension, motion ratios that you can use to extrapolate wheel rates, ride dynamic, etc.

The raw data is the illusive part. The equations for the rest are out there and are fairly simple.

The most illusive portion of data to MEASURE is corner sprung weight. One can calculate it via a pretty simple statics equation if you have the motion ratio and the force at the spring.

FWIW, this is 100% guess, but the TL 3G motion ratios are probably like 1.6F and 1.1R. Maybe adjusted slightly using the cosine of damper angle.

Inverses are .625F and 0.9R

A 12K/4K car will have much closer effective stiffness for the front and rear axle if those numbers hold true.

12KG/mm × (.625x.625) = 4.68KG/mm
4KG/mm x (0.9x0.9) = 3.24KG/mm

This takes a lot of time and disassembly...unless you know someone at honda that can fill in the raw data.

OR....

The easiest way to set preload is trial. Increase preload by about 5 to 10mm at a time and drive the car to see if the ride improves.

You don't want to over-do this blindly and give up all your droop travel, so you'll need to use a little expertise and common sense.

It is really beneficial to measure the shock lengths before starting an install so you know how much total free travel the shock has.

 

^sorry that's not entirely helpful. There isn't a simple answer.

 

damn, I've taken physics in high school and college so I can follow what your saying but fuck that is complicated stuff. do you have to completely tear out the coils again to adjust preload?

 

curious to what sockr1 says , he has the same coils and is saying the same stuff as me in terms of bounciness

 

The easiest/most accurate way to get dimensions means disassembly.

I have Öhlins DFV's on one of my cars...and the rear suspension only has (on my lightened car) 0.6" of free travel. So the ride is a little dicey. Hence...why I am customizing the travel over winter for that car.

Its not uncommon for full bodied coilovers like the Flex to be spec'd with not enough preload for whatever reason. Full body coilovers are travel limited by design. The travel doesn't need to change with lower static heights.....but its very limited to start with.

 

If you're interested in seeing pics of how/what to measure, see here.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-brakes-suspension-249/my-s2000-suspension-thread-1166937/

 

I am running BC Coils, Extreme low, 12K 200mm front, and 10K 200mm rear - i went with those rates - down from a lot higher rates. Some of my friends be running fender to lip with spring rates closer to 24k front/rear, seeing as how I wasn't going that low, i didn't need to get that stiff. Like Oh Sickest said, I am at 24" from ground to fender lip in front, and 24.5" in the rear. The car itself handles amazingly well, more responsive, just do get the bounce feeling once in a while. i didn't mess with preload either, just the overall height. I bought the kit new, and have been installed on the car now for almost 2 years in March. i'm pretty stoked with the coils - so I should go full stiff and then click from there - thanks for the info buddy

 

#1 Suggestion as an alternative to the A-Spec: Koni Orange + Eiback Pro-Kit Springs or H&R Sport Springs
Yes...these are OE shock and spring replacements and YES they are coil-over dampers. They are not really adjustable for height in the same way that tuner "coilovers" are though. But since you said "since aspec is discontinued" I feel this is the overall best alternative to the A-Spec.

#2 Suggest as a coilover that will RIDE SIMILARLY TO STOCK, as in comfortable and not too jarring, but has an OEM-like level of refinement, you will probably want to first look at Tein Street Advance Z (notice I said Street Advance Z versus Street Advance...). On the softer settings this kit will allow you to get a stock-like feel, and the best part is you can also fine tune it if you feel as though you do want a more sporting A-Spec feel. You will definitely need to have some concession there because no aftermarket suspension is going to ride just like stock.

#3 beyond this you are going up-market to H&R Coilovers which feature Bilstein dampers, or KW Var 1s....these are both in another price and performance category and may not give you what you are looking for.

PS: Roland_Bluntzs Yes it is a bit odd that Tein's dampers work this way. Do note that the EDFC does allow for a 32-point adjustment within the specified range...it gives a higher resolution than the knurled knob does.
PPS: Roland, I could chime in on the Street Flex as well as I do have experience with them. For the TSX/Accord/TL applications, Tein lengthened the stroke of the Street Flex versus the FLEX in the rear. This allows for more flexible preload setting (my TSX loved 1/2" of preload at Sonoma), but with zero preload it road and swayed like a caddy. I just keep it at 1/2" preload all the time as it is a casual use car. The rear of the Street Flex is very well tuned for this platform for street sport use and is only mildly under-dampened for HPDE (not a "track car") use.

 

^^ Marcus do you run 1/2" preload all around? I was considering bumping my preload in my street flex because teins recommendation is only 2mm front and 1mm rear (or vice Versa I forget) and I have a slight Cadillac feel even with dampers at 2/4, 4/6 etc. I was thinking about going 10mm front and 8mm rear and see how that feels

 

i did a bunch of research lately on the street flex, and i agree with roland, there's a ton of old threads in other forums about how the preload is way too small from factory for the street flex. currently TEIN recommends 2mm in the front and 1mm in the rear (200mm and 250mm springs respectively) for the TL application, but i think this is way too small. i currently have about 5mm on both i believe. this week i'm going to increase both preloads to 10-12mm and see how that feels. i'm very happy with the tein flex but there are times where it feels too much like a cadillac and should be more planted/connected. hopefully i can dial that preload in and report back to you jeff.

but this is the reason why i really wanted the flex...the ability to dial it in exactly how i want regarding ride feel and ride height!

marcus thanks for the info in your post, i remember you talking very highly of the street flex. did you end up going 1/2" preload all the way around?

 

Just took the plunge and bought the Koni Orange + Eiback Pro-Kit Springs you suggested for my 2008 TL-S from your site. Costco is running a $70 off four Michelin promo so got my Super Sports ordered as well. Been a long time coming and am looking forward to the results! I appreciate the advice and the original post as I was looking for the same thing.

 

1/2" (13mm) of preload is a pretty conservative number, and is definitely a good place to start.

I am pretty sure I'm running over 1" on my street Advance (TSX - 8K/4K springs). I'll measure the spring the next time I work on the car.

A few of the negative things that can result from increased preload:
-Reduced droop travel. For a street car, this means you may lift a wheel on steep driveways that you take on sideways. In extreme cases, the lack of droop can cause topping out of the shock (opposite of bottoming out) on bumps.

-The bumpstop no longer stops the suspension motion before the UCA hits the shock tower, or the wheel hits something in the inner fender. This can cause damage...and this is why road legal coilovers (where laws apply) are typically NOT full body adjustable.

-You get coil bind. The spring finishes its motion before the shock does...and the coils slam into each other.

I don't have enough experience with the TL or the street flex to tell you when this stuff all happens. I'd suggest measuring max wheel travel even though aint nobody got time for that.

But...again, I'm sure you're safe at 1/2". The thing I'd watch the closest is the front UCA's proximity to the shock tower. If you allow too much compression travel by increasing preload, your shock may not bottom out on the bumpstop in time to stop the UCA from slamming into the shock tower on a big bump.

 

Does the SA-Z just come with different valving and/or spring rates?

 

Read the article Marcus posted: https://www.heeltoeauto.com/xcms_ent...cmsentryid=281

 

thanks guys, dave report back

 

jeff do you have any way to measure your current spring length or is your car locked away until summer? i'll measure mine but i believe i'm more than the tein recommend 2mm front/1mm rear. i think i'm at 5mm on both and it's not that bouncy (just once in a while)

tein's recommendation is 198 vs 200 on front and 249 vs 250 on rear (spring length)

 

she's locked away

 

I doubt you'd be able to find that initial length without removing them from the car. Not reliably, anyway.

Bushing bind will compress the spring artificially in a lot of cases. But...every case is semi-unique.

Edit: Nvm...I think yous guys are talking about finding compressed length.

 

Good article. Shows the overall difference between the 2.

I was more asking why Marcus was implying that the SAZ rode better than the SA? Or maybe he wasn't implying that and I misunderstood.

 

Since we're talking about setting preload....and because I needed to pre-set the preload on my Öhlins anyway...and did not want to struggle....I built a contraption.

Sent my friend a CNC laser file and welded some metal together and BLAM.

Don't forget where you's seen it first, mates.



If the auxiliary bolt pattern looks familiar; it should. . Its designed to (hopefully) house a bunch of Honda shock patterns.

 

No just the rear. The front I like how it is. After installing the Spoon rigid collars and FLP/PCI bearings it's sharp and firm feeling. I am planning to upgrade the front sway bar though.

I think Tein set their kit the way they did because they wanted to have more people have a softer ride out of the box. Believe it or not they seem to listen to their customers a lot. And since adding a little preload is really simple and easy, it makes the kit a better fit for more people. It's better than the slew of "me-too" coilover brands that put all their features on paper, make short stroke dampers that swap into different cars with different brackets, put any kinda spring in you want, and then tell you your warranty is voided if you touch preload. WTF? lol.

I saw this and was so entirely thrilled to earn a sale off my suggestion. Indeed please do let us know what you think of that recommendation!

1" of preload...why not up the rate a little? They have lots of ones on offer to toss in...

Yeah I don't get contact. I firstly am at a responsible height, and on top of that I have the skunk2 upper arms which have a bit more clearance to the towers. While the front dampers are set fairly firm the preload is basically zero right now.

They DID change the valving on the UA6-7 part, as they have consolidated the kit with the Accord. I am not sure how in love with this idea I am. I don't know HOW they changed it, but when they do this the heavier car ends up feeling squishier under the same damper.

I imagine, in a TL, the SAZ will be softer than the SA.

 

yea compressed length

nice setup! but curious why you don't just measure where the spring sits on both ends and get that compressed length measurement? or are you measuring something else? and if you have to do it later on, you remove the entire coilover again?

thanks! very interesting to hear that you have the front preload almost at 0 and the rear at 1/2", i would think it would be opposite for a daily driver but then again yours is based towards a track application. i think I'm going to add 5-10mm more preload to the front and see how it responds.

never saw those rigid collars before but the engineering makes sense, very interesting. does that add more in terms of NVH such as the stiffer mounts do? i found a local owner selling the PCI bushings so those are going in next week when i get my front axles replaced with raxles

i agree with you about the "flex"-ability of the coilover and i would rather have that than not!! it allows each person to dial in exactly how they want their car to perform. overall i'm very happy with the tein flex, this is more of me being OCD and getting it exactly how i want haha. i think TEIN has great products, and i love their active EDFC setup i'm running

this is how my street flex feels compared to my tein ss i used to run on the TL. gonna try to up the preload a bit and see how that feels, i wonder if they did this same valving on the street flex as they are doing for the SAZ

 

You guys should know....preload doesn't change spring rate. Just the position.

My suggestions for adding preload are because my prediction is that your diminished ride comes from hitting the bumpstop too hard/often.

Adding preload will add shock (compression) travel at the cost of rebound travel.

FWIW (not worth much), the stock front springs come with well over 1" of preload. Stock rears with about 1" or so.

 

^^ but i'm not hitting my bumpstops and i don't have a harsh ride. my issue which really isn't a huge deal just more me trying to be OCD, is that it tends to have a more cadillac feels sometimes going over dips (kind of floaty). so i was hoping to increase the preload to firm it up a bit. i know this is a limited solution but figured it might help and if not, i go back to my current preload settings.

thanks for the info on the oem preload, out of curiosity do you know their rates compared to teins 12k/6k?

ideally i would go 14k/8k springs with the tein street flex (and most likely swift springs), but it's not an issue that i'm at that point of uninstalling, buying more parts, and reinstalling haha

 

Cadillac floatyness comes from lack of low speed damping that Tein is famous for. I don't think preload will resolve this. Though it might make it better...because you may be hitting the bumpstops and causing the problem that way.

I am positive you're using bumpstops at some degree...as this is the way honda designed the suspension. The amount of time you spend on stops and the degree of compression is what adding preload can resolve.

What damper setting are you using?

Stiffer springs will definitely make it worse, though.

 

yea i agree the preload probably won't help much and that it is just an underdamped shock from tein. if i didn't run (and love) the TEIN EDFC Active setup, i would have probably gone BCs for coilovers when i replaced my Tein SS, i hear great things about them. just weird that this issue happens more with the Flex than it does the SA...you would think they would be to the same specs (they may be, i don't know)

when i am in my car alone i run 2/4 (from stiff, F/R) and when my wife is in the car i run 4/6 or 5/7

 

As far as bias of front and rear stiffness....someone would need to study the motion ratio.

Its plain to see that the rear is close to 1:1. The front? maybe 1.5 or 1.6. Idk.

The front spring *likely* has to be about 2X as stiff to have the same roll/ride stiffness *at the wheels*.

12k/6K, in that case, would mean that the front and rear of the car will compress at the same rate (weight/compression).