Valve Chatter/Pinging/Knocking in 2007 TypeS
09-28-2007 | 10:23 AM
#241
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by I hate cars
Pre-ignition. 
Example:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...1/pageId=37801
"When we talk about "predetonation" in the context of fuels, we are not really suggesting that the 550 engine might blow up. (Even with our road testers' typically aggressive driving.) We are referring to what is otherwise known as engine "pinging" or "knocking."
What is this knocking or predetonation? Here's a brief chemistry lesson:
The octane number of gasoline is a measure of its resistance to detonation. Detonation occurs when the octane number is too low for the engine and its operating conditions. When the spark plug fires, the flame moves through the air-fuel mixture, burning it very rapidly. Predetonation occurs if a portion of the unburned air-fuel mixture rises to a temperature and pressure it cannot tolerate and ignites before the flame front gets to it. Predetonation causes maximum pressure in the combustion chamber to be reached before the piston gets to top dead center, thus it pushes down on the piston before it has peaked at the top of its travel. Much of the engine's energy is wasted in trying to move up the piston while the high-pressure exploding gasses are trying to push it down. The extreme temperature and pressure developed can cause broken rings, rod-bearing damage, piston overheating and erosion of the aluminum block. Pistons can even end up with holes in their top, flat surfaces from the high temperatures and high pressures. (Note: These are expensive to fix.)"
09-28-2007 | 10:33 AM
#242
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by bionicjoggingsuit
My dealer requested that my car be brought in for the Acura Field Rep, who flew in from California, to test drive the car for himself. I did so and it no longer pings / pre-detonates / sputters / chatters / etc.
Here is what I was told was done to my car:
1. A chemical solvent was introduced into the heads to clean any carbon accumulation.
2. The factory software was erased and reloaded.
3. The spark plugs were replaced because the chemical solvent fouled them.
Now, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy so here is my opinion and only that- my opinion:
I believe that the valves / heads probably did need to be cleaned because of what was going on- that makes sense. The field rep brought his own software with him. They loaded THAT software, not what was already on hand at the dealership. The car has not pinged since, after 150 miles of my normal driving habits.
And here is what is different (besides not pinging): The car pulls a lot harder. It has a much more dramatic increase in acceleration when the second cam profile comes on. The powerband is very different from what we started with. Before it felt like a linear, controlled wheezing, now the power hits in the middle and comes on harder. The car seems to breathe when you open it up. I kind of noticed it when I went to pass a slow coffee sipper on the way to work; I think I sucked some of the paint off of his driver side mirror when I went past him! The car feels like it has A LOT more power- like 20 more horsepower- like the 20 more horsepower that Acura needs to even the spec sheet with the G35-S.
Bottom line- I think I may have the new version of software, remapped and ping free. I may be beta testing for Acura. They do read this thread so keep posting.
Later
Here is what I was told was done to my car:
1. A chemical solvent was introduced into the heads to clean any carbon accumulation.
2. The factory software was erased and reloaded.
3. The spark plugs were replaced because the chemical solvent fouled them.
Now, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy so here is my opinion and only that- my opinion:
I believe that the valves / heads probably did need to be cleaned because of what was going on- that makes sense. The field rep brought his own software with him. They loaded THAT software, not what was already on hand at the dealership. The car has not pinged since, after 150 miles of my normal driving habits.
And here is what is different (besides not pinging): The car pulls a lot harder. It has a much more dramatic increase in acceleration when the second cam profile comes on. The powerband is very different from what we started with. Before it felt like a linear, controlled wheezing, now the power hits in the middle and comes on harder. The car seems to breathe when you open it up. I kind of noticed it when I went to pass a slow coffee sipper on the way to work; I think I sucked some of the paint off of his driver side mirror when I went past him! The car feels like it has A LOT more power- like 20 more horsepower- like the 20 more horsepower that Acura needs to even the spec sheet with the G35-S.
Bottom line- I think I may have the new version of software, remapped and ping free. I may be beta testing for Acura. They do read this thread so keep posting.
Later
The engine makes less than 286 peak HP when its pinging (the ECU is maxing out the spark retard).
Therefore there is no reason to think that a properly running engine will make MORE than the rated 286 HP.
09-28-2007 | 12:07 PM
#244
AZ Community Team
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From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Originally Posted by joerockt
Good news. Does anyone think this might turn into a full recall for the remapping?
IMHO, No F'n Way!
Recalls are *primarily* for safety issues. Even then companies are sometimes reluctant (Ford/Firestone for example), because, in the case of a recall, they MUST notify the buyer. This increases the number of responses and repairs.
The Gov't will NOT institute a non-safety recall.
So it comes down to what Acura predicts the repair rate to be without a recall vs the expected repair rate with a recall. The lower cost wins. I'd bet my last dollar, that for this issue a recall would cost more.
IOW I am betting that enough pinging engines will live through the Drivetrain warranty period to make repair/replacement of those that don't worthwhile.
They'll do TSB and repair only if the consumer reports a problem.
09-28-2007 | 12:19 PM
#245
Pro
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From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by Bearcat94
IMHO, No F'n Way!
Recalls are *primarily* for safety issues. Even then companies are sometimes reluctant (Ford/Firestone for example), because, in the case of a recall, they MUST notify the buyer. This increases the number of responses and repairs.
The Gov't will NOT institute a non-safety recall.
So it comes down to what Acura predicts the repair rate to be without a recall vs the expected repair rate with a recall. The lower cost wins. I'd bet my last dollar, that for this issue a recall would cost more.
IOW I am betting that enough pinging engines will live through the Drivetrain warranty period to make repair/replacement of those that don't worthwhile.
They'll do TSB and repair only if the consumer reports a problem.
Recalls are *primarily* for safety issues. Even then companies are sometimes reluctant (Ford/Firestone for example), because, in the case of a recall, they MUST notify the buyer. This increases the number of responses and repairs.
The Gov't will NOT institute a non-safety recall.
So it comes down to what Acura predicts the repair rate to be without a recall vs the expected repair rate with a recall. The lower cost wins. I'd bet my last dollar, that for this issue a recall would cost more.
IOW I am betting that enough pinging engines will live through the Drivetrain warranty period to make repair/replacement of those that don't worthwhile.
They'll do TSB and repair only if the consumer reports a problem.
This will probably end up being a TSB, and will probably only be brought up to customers that complain of pinging and have had the complaint verified--just like any other TSB.
The perceived boost in performance that bionicjoggingsuit witnessed is definitely interesting and coincides with what I was told about a potential increase in engine output and response.
Because the measured output of the engine may change, this could become a more widespread update for the car--but that is just speculation. If indeed the timing is over-advanced and the knock correction algorithm is too inept to fix it completely (which seems like the issue), horsepower and torque numbers are very likely to go up at least by some margin. If they get the timing (and perhaps the fuel) right there in the sweet spot, it will be a wonderful thing for this car.
09-28-2007 | 01:58 PM
#247
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 229
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From: Venice, CA
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
The 286 HP figure is 3rd party "certified" per the newer SAE rev. I doubt that engine was pinging when it made that figure.
The engine makes less than 286 peak HP when its pinging (the ECU is maxing out the spark retard).
Therefore there is no reason to think that a properly running engine will make MORE than the rated 286 HP.
The engine makes less than 286 peak HP when its pinging (the ECU is maxing out the spark retard).
Therefore there is no reason to think that a properly running engine will make MORE than the rated 286 HP.
09-28-2007 | 02:06 PM
#248
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 229
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From: Venice, CA
Originally Posted by bionicjoggingsuit
Bottom line- I think I may have the new version of software, remapped and ping free. I may be beta testing for Acura. They do read this thread so keep posting.
Later
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question. I noticed that the G35 and the IS350 both put out exactly 306 HP with the same 3.5L displacement V6. Is the difference between these engines and the Acura's 286HP 3.5L V6 mostly due to software or is it more about mechanical differences?
09-28-2007 | 03:23 PM
#249
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by joelsaxton
But there is reason to believe that this updated software could increase power over 286 HP.
The RL makes 290 certified and that's got a more efficient exhaust system.
The TL-S makes 286 - certified - when it's running properly and not pinging.
It will never make appreciably more than that, but can make appreciably less (e.g. when its pinging, even though the ECU had already retarded the timing).
Cars that "ping" aren't capable of making full power (286 HP).
09-28-2007 | 03:29 PM
#250
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by joelsaxton
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question. I noticed that the G35 and the IS350 both put out exactly 306 HP with the same 3.5L displacement V6. Is the difference between these engines and the Acura's 286HP 3.5L V6 mostly due to software or is it more about mechanical differences?
The Lexus and Infiniti use DOHC heads.
Plus, the Infiniti red-lines @ 7,800 rpm while the Lexus uses an 11.8:1 CR (and direct injection).
So to answer your question, virtually ALL of the difference is attributable to mechanical differences.
The TL will never make as much power as either of those other two engines unless it is modified with aftermarket parts.
09-28-2007 | 03:29 PM
#251
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by joelsaxton
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question. I noticed that the G35 and the IS350 both put out exactly 306 HP with the same 3.5L displacement V6. Is the difference between these engines and the Acura's 286HP 3.5L V6 mostly due to software or is it more about mechanical differences?
The Lexus and Infiniti use DOHC heads.
Plus, the Infiniti red-lines @ 7,800 rpm while the Lexus uses an 11.8:1 CR (and direct injection).
So to answer your question, virtually ALL of the difference is attributable to mechanical differences.
The TL will never make as much power as either of those other two engines unless it is modified with aftermarket parts.
09-28-2007 | 03:48 PM
#253
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by joelsaxton
I see. But what about ECU upgrades (like the Procede upgrade for the 335i)? Are "hardware" modifications made to accomodate these remappings, or it it strictly "software" related?
ECU upgrades would worsen that problem because they'd involve more aggressive spark curves.
These engines are clearly maxxed out in terms of ECU programming. 286 HP is about it as far as that goes.
Software is designed to accommodate the engine's architecture; it is never the other way around.
The TL is never going to be a truly "fast" car. It won't touch a new, bone stock Corvette even you installed a supercharger, exhaust, etc.
If you want a faster car then you should simply buy one. Mods are a waste of money when it comes time to sell the car. In fact, many people will only pay LESS for a car with after-market parts.
A 286 HP TL 6 speed will run with virtually ANY of the "musclecars" from the sixties/early seventies (back when they were brand new and without ANY mods).
286 SAE NET certified HP could have easily translated to 375 HP by the old "gross" measure.
So 286 might not sound like a lot, but it's still solid by real historical standards.
09-28-2007 | 05:40 PM
#254
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Venice, CA
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
The Acura's SOHC heads compromise valve and spark plug placement.
The Lexus and Infiniti use DOHC heads.
Plus, the Infiniti red-lines @ 7,800 rpm while the Lexus uses an 11.8:1 CR (and direct injection).
So to answer your question, virtually ALL of the difference is attributable to mechanical differences.
The TL will never make as much power as either of those other two engines unless it is modified with aftermarket parts.
The Lexus and Infiniti use DOHC heads.
Plus, the Infiniti red-lines @ 7,800 rpm while the Lexus uses an 11.8:1 CR (and direct injection).
So to answer your question, virtually ALL of the difference is attributable to mechanical differences.
The TL will never make as much power as either of those other two engines unless it is modified with aftermarket parts.
09-28-2007 | 05:55 PM
#255
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Venice, CA
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
If you want a faster car then you should simply buy one.
09-28-2007 | 07:00 PM
#256
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by joelsaxton
Interesting. I just looked up "overhead cam" on Wikipedia. Looks like DOHC is definitely better for performance.
- More Expensive
- Heavier (and higher center of gravity)
- Has more internal parts (reduced fuel economy due to added friction)
Everything is a trade-off...
09-28-2007 | 07:07 PM
#257
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Bakersfield
Originally Posted by joelsaxton
Interesting. I just looked up "overhead cam" on Wikipedia. Looks like DOHC is definitely better for performance.
DOHC motors usually spin more rpm and make their power that way. It's easier to spin a lot of rpm and have a reliable valvetrain with a DOHC or SOHC motor because you lose the weight of pushrods and the extra valve spring pressure required to control them. The computer on some cars can vary valve overlap and timing with an intake and exhaust cam to play with which helps with low end, high end, fuel economy, and emissions.
09-28-2007 | 07:50 PM
#258
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by I hate cars
Depends. If all out power is what you're looking for, then the traditional 2 valve cam in block is the way to go. The most powerful motors in the world use two valves. Look at the pushrod LSx series motors like the LS6 in the Z06 Vette making 505hp on pump gas...
That got nearly the same fuel economy as my '06 Accord V6 coupe and put an additional 100 peak HP to the ground. And it made power EVERYWHERE throughout the rev range.
92 MPH equated to 2,000 rpm even on the tach in 6th, yet it would pull 6th CLEANLY from 32 MPH.
That was a '99. The LS6 was better, the LS3 is better still and the LS7 is a whole different animal.
All of those engines weigh roughly 100 pounds more than the 3.5 liter Honda/Acura V6, which isn't much considering the huge difference in displacement.
09-28-2007 | 08:25 PM
#260
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by I hate cars
Oops. Meant LS7, not "6".
All that really matters is that you "get it."
Most don't because they believe the marketing hype about 2 valve/pushrod engines being "obsolete," "not with the times," etc.
Those people are completely clueless. I know this first-hand, since I've owned and driven both.
I have similar feelings about these "Brembo" brakes. They're nicely painted, 4 piston, fixed calipers, yet the car doesn't stop as well as the Camaro. (Some magazines might report similar 60 MPH to 0 stopping distances, but it's not close at higher speeds.) The Camaro also had better pedal feel, less pedal travel and NEVER made noises while stopping (my TL-S "groans" at very low speeds unless the brakes are REALLY hot).
That used "old fashioned," unpainted (and frankly, somewhat ugly) 2 piston, sliding calipers in the front. Thing is, they worked - VERY well.
Oh yeah...The Camaro also had a "solid axle," which everyone laughs at. It "must" handle poorly with a solid axle. LOL I have owned FIVE Honda products (including this TL-S) and none of them were in the same league handling-wise in terms of handling (and for those who understand that there's a lot more to handling than lateral grip around a 200 foot skidpad).
09-28-2007 | 11:16 PM
#261
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From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
^^ Ok, then.
Back on topic.
I continue to hear the pinging/clatter. Re-fueled today with Shell 93 Octane (as opposed to Texaco) and will listen through the weekend. The pinging/clatter actually begins close to 3,500 rpm.
I have made a service appt for Monday for this issue and a loose front seat back.
Is there anything I can tell the Service Tech regarding the pinging? Is there anything "official" from Honda/Acura - a TSB or anything in the monthly Service News Bulletins that I can reference? What is the best way to describe the problem for the technician?
Back on topic.
I continue to hear the pinging/clatter. Re-fueled today with Shell 93 Octane (as opposed to Texaco) and will listen through the weekend. The pinging/clatter actually begins close to 3,500 rpm.
I have made a service appt for Monday for this issue and a loose front seat back.
Is there anything I can tell the Service Tech regarding the pinging? Is there anything "official" from Honda/Acura - a TSB or anything in the monthly Service News Bulletins that I can reference? What is the best way to describe the problem for the technician?
09-29-2007 | 12:37 AM
#262
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Bakersfield
Originally Posted by Bearcat94
^^ Ok, then.
Back on topic.
I continue to hear the pinging/clatter. Re-fueled today with Shell 93 Octane (as opposed to Texaco) and will listen through the weekend. The pinging/clatter actually begins close to 3,500 rpm.
I have made a service appt for Monday for this issue and a loose front seat back.
Is there anything I can tell the Service Tech regarding the pinging? Is there anything "official" from Honda/Acura - a TSB or anything in the monthly Service News Bulletins that I can reference? What is the best way to describe the problem for the technician?
Back on topic.
I continue to hear the pinging/clatter. Re-fueled today with Shell 93 Octane (as opposed to Texaco) and will listen through the weekend. The pinging/clatter actually begins close to 3,500 rpm.
I have made a service appt for Monday for this issue and a loose front seat back.
Is there anything I can tell the Service Tech regarding the pinging? Is there anything "official" from Honda/Acura - a TSB or anything in the monthly Service News Bulletins that I can reference? What is the best way to describe the problem for the technician?
Basically, if it's a timing map issue like has been mentioned, the only thing you can do until you get the reprogramming is to run higher octane...
09-29-2007 | 11:52 AM
#263
Pro
Joined: May 2006
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From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by I hate cars
Depends. If all out power is what you're looking for, then the traditional 2 valve cam in block is the way to go. The most powerful motors in the world use two valves. Look at the pushrod LSx series motors like the LS6 in the Z06 Vette making 505hp on pump gas.
The naturally aspirated Porsche 944 2.5 only did about 60 horse per liter (which is decent by Detroit standards today), but it had huge bores which accommodated nice big valves. It ran clean, had a digital mapped fuel and ignition system, and sounded great. That was 25 years ago!
Even the forgotten Peugeot 505 Turbo's 2.2 liter SOHC 8 valver from the same era had some extraordinary geometry in its head--a true hemispherical combustion chamber, wide open ports, and huge valves. It did about 80-90 horse per liter with just 7.5:1 compression and less than 1 bar of boost pressure! That was with an analog multi-point FI system and a simplistic digital ignition system.
It seems the engine craftsmen in Europe have forgotten their roots and gone all crazy-tech on us, which I believe has driven the world to do the same. Now we have small engines that ping all the time but produce great power for their size. I'm not sure which philosophy I like better :p
09-29-2007 | 01:51 PM
#264
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by junktionfet
Not to derail the conversation too much (and not entirely sure how we ended up talking about this), but I really enjoy well-tuned 2 valve per cylinder engines. It might be easier to produce higher revving and higher power with less displacement when you have multiple valves, but that careful design can yield decent power from a small 2 valve engine as well.
The naturally aspirated Porsche 944 2.5 only did about 60 horse per liter (which is decent by Detroit standards today), but it had huge bores which accommodated nice big valves. It ran clean, had a digital mapped fuel and ignition system, and sounded great. That was 25 years ago!
Even the forgotten Peugeot 505 Turbo's 2.2 liter SOHC 8 valver from the same era had some extraordinary geometry in its head--a true hemispherical combustion chamber, wide open ports, and huge valves. It did about 80-90 horse per liter with just 7.5:1 compression and less than 1 bar of boost pressure! That was with an analog multi-point FI system and a simplistic digital ignition system.
It seems the engine craftsmen in Europe have forgotten their roots and gone all crazy-tech on us, which I believe has driven the world to do the same. Now we have small engines that ping all the time but produce great power for their size. I'm not sure which philosophy I like better :p
The naturally aspirated Porsche 944 2.5 only did about 60 horse per liter (which is decent by Detroit standards today), but it had huge bores which accommodated nice big valves. It ran clean, had a digital mapped fuel and ignition system, and sounded great. That was 25 years ago!
Even the forgotten Peugeot 505 Turbo's 2.2 liter SOHC 8 valver from the same era had some extraordinary geometry in its head--a true hemispherical combustion chamber, wide open ports, and huge valves. It did about 80-90 horse per liter with just 7.5:1 compression and less than 1 bar of boost pressure! That was with an analog multi-point FI system and a simplistic digital ignition system.
It seems the engine craftsmen in Europe have forgotten their roots and gone all crazy-tech on us, which I believe has driven the world to do the same. Now we have small engines that ping all the time but produce great power for their size. I'm not sure which philosophy I like better :p
Anyway, I've had maybe 2 dozen new cars and the LS1 was BY FAR the most impressive engine of all - especially in terms of the HP * Fuel Economy multiple.
These Honda V6s are smooooooooooth, but the balls just aren't there. Neither is the fuel economy, relative to engine output.
10-01-2007 | 11:02 AM
#265
AZ Community Team
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From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Originally Posted by Bearcat94
^^ Ok, then.
Back on topic.
I continue to hear the pinging/clatter. Re-fueled today with Shell 93 Octane (as opposed to Texaco) and will listen through the weekend. The pinging/clatter actually begins close to 3,500 rpm.
I have made a service appt for Monday for this issue and a loose front seat back.
Is there anything I can tell the Service Tech regarding the pinging? Is there anything "official" from Honda/Acura - a TSB or anything in the monthly Service News Bulletins that I can reference? What is the best way to describe the problem for the technician?
Back on topic.
I continue to hear the pinging/clatter. Re-fueled today with Shell 93 Octane (as opposed to Texaco) and will listen through the weekend. The pinging/clatter actually begins close to 3,500 rpm.
I have made a service appt for Monday for this issue and a loose front seat back.
Is there anything I can tell the Service Tech regarding the pinging? Is there anything "official" from Honda/Acura - a TSB or anything in the monthly Service News Bulletins that I can reference? What is the best way to describe the problem for the technician?
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
10-01-2007 | 11:59 AM
#266
Enjoying my TL-S
Joined: Mar 2007
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Originally Posted by Bearcat94
Back from the dealer. Service writer's 1st thought was a loose heat shield. Tech checked that and no dice.
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
Well, considering that only one persons knock has (hopefully) been fixed and the fact that Acura sent someone from their HQ out there, it seems as if they have something in the works. I'd give it another few weeks and call them back. But at least it's noted with the dealer.
10-01-2007 | 03:29 PM
#267
AZ Community Team
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From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Originally Posted by awilson529
Well, considering that only one persons knock has (hopefully) been fixed and the fact that Acura sent someone from their HQ out there, it seems as if they have something in the works. I'd give it another few weeks and call them back. But at least it's noted with the dealer.
) , I'll schedule another appointment.Right now it's just a minor annoyance. Hopefully it doesn't get any worse, doesn't cause any lasting damage, and gets a TSB fairly soon. I should call Client Services to log a "complaint" there also I suppose.
BTW - Can anyone recommend a Fuel System Cleaner and/or Additive that would be appropriate?
10-01-2007 | 03:31 PM
#268
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 112
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by Bearcat94
Back from the dealer. Service writer's 1st thought was a loose heat shield. Tech checked that and no dice.
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
I have an appoitment this Thursday afternoon and I dont doubt I will get the same responce. But atleast they will know I have the problem. When I called for the appoitment they had not herd of this issue.
10-01-2007 | 03:49 PM
#269
Drifting
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From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by Bearcat94
Back from the dealer. Service writer's 1st thought was a loose heat shield. Tech checked that and no dice.
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
The tech and I took it for a ride and right on cue - knocking/clatter. Tech said is was ( :surprise: ) Spark Knock. He suggested a fuel additive every 5,000 miles or so to reduce/remove carbon build-up and/or reduce the knocking. Further he stated that as long as the amount of knock was limited (short duration in a narrow rpm range) it should not cause any long-term problems. I am not sure I buy that.
Regardless, I've got the issue on record at the dealer. I asked the tech if he'd heard anything about this issue in other TL-S's or about any TSB on the issue and (no surpirse) he said that he had not.
There are TLs out there with 11:1 CR and LOTS of miles on them that have NEVER experienced engine knock and have NEVER had any such fuel additive.
The dealer/tech is talking out his a** (just as you suspect).
10-01-2007 | 04:15 PM
#270
AZ Community Team
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 32,488
Likes: 7,771
From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Originally Posted by FRST4DR
I have an appoitment this Thursday afternoon and I dont doubt I will get the same responce. But atleast they will know I have the problem. When I called for the appoitment they had not herd of this issue.
1. In case I have a problem later and/or a TSB is issued, I have my problem on record.
2. To get another TL-S with this problem in thier database. This is on the assumption that the Tech/Engineering groups use these reports to investigate and/or solve problems.
I'd ask anyone who has this problem to open a Case with Client Services; I figure the more of us that call, the more lilkely (and sooner) a TSB will be forthcoming.
10-01-2007 | 05:17 PM
#271
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Venice, CA
Agreed.
I called in my spark-knock problem to Client Services as well. I also took it into Santa Monica Acura twice with this same problem.
Hopefully more complaints will get this issue resolved quicker.
I called in my spark-knock problem to Client Services as well. I also took it into Santa Monica Acura twice with this same problem.
Hopefully more complaints will get this issue resolved quicker.
10-04-2007 | 05:54 PM
#273
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 112
Likes: 2
Well Client Services was useless. I called to report the problem and she put me on hold and then came back and said "what octane are you using?" I told her 93, she said and I quote "The manual says to use 91 octane" (Like this was my problem) I told her I don’t have access to 91. Just 87, 89, 93. Then she says "oh yeah 91 or higher, well I can't do anything for you; sorry" and that was it.
I took it to the dealer today as I had an appointment, and spoke with the service manager. He was aware of the problem but could not change anything on the car to keep it from accruing. He told me that another driver put an AEM intake on their car and reduced the pinging. I’m not frustrated with the dealer as their hands are somewhat tied, I am with Acura though. Oh well I guess were stuck right now. Hopefully they are working on a fix. If not I guess I have a year to try and utilize the lemon law. Im not going to pay for this car for 4 1/2 more years and still have this problem.
I took it to the dealer today as I had an appointment, and spoke with the service manager. He was aware of the problem but could not change anything on the car to keep it from accruing. He told me that another driver put an AEM intake on their car and reduced the pinging. I’m not frustrated with the dealer as their hands are somewhat tied, I am with Acura though. Oh well I guess were stuck right now. Hopefully they are working on a fix. If not I guess I have a year to try and utilize the lemon law. Im not going to pay for this car for 4 1/2 more years and still have this problem.
10-04-2007 | 06:24 PM
#274
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 0
From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by FRST4DR
... Im not going to pay for this car for 4 1/2 more years and still have this problem.
My TL-S hasn't yet "pinged" (though it could well be running a retarded spark without my knowing it). What really bothers me is the way they're "dealing" with the problem for those who are experiencing it.
As for my car, the front brakes groan, the radio and climate control have mysteriously "reset" themselves and I simply can't trust the car after reading about all of the problems on here.
I'm getting a Lexus next time around.
10-04-2007 | 06:53 PM
#275
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Venice, CA
Originally Posted by FRST4DR
Well Client Services was useless. I called to report the problem and she put me on hold and then came back and said "what octane are you using?" I told her 93, she said and I quote "The manual says to use 91 octane" (Like this was my problem) I told her I don’t have access to 91. Just 87, 89, 93. Then she says "oh yeah 91 or higher, well I can't do anything for you; sorry" and that was it.
93 octane.. Jesus.
10-04-2007 | 06:59 PM
#276
Joel Saxton
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Venice, CA
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
Mine is gone in 3 years (did a 3 year loan; now I'm wishing I kept my '06 Accord V6 6 speed coupe, which was nearly paid for).
My TL-S hasn't yet "pinged" (though it could well be running a retarded spark without my knowing it). What really bothers me is the way they're "dealing" with the problem for those who are experiencing it.
As for my car, the front brakes groan, the radio and climate control have mysteriously "reset" themselves and I simply can't trust the car after reading about all of the problems on here.
I'm getting a Lexus next time around.
My TL-S hasn't yet "pinged" (though it could well be running a retarded spark without my knowing it). What really bothers me is the way they're "dealing" with the problem for those who are experiencing it.
As for my car, the front brakes groan, the radio and climate control have mysteriously "reset" themselves and I simply can't trust the car after reading about all of the problems on here.
I'm getting a Lexus next time around.
How do the front brakes groan? Is it every time or in certain situations?
10-04-2007 | 08:42 PM
#278
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 0
From: Portsmouth, RI
Originally Posted by spiike
Are you guys sure it isn't rod bearings? Because honda is known for that problem...
Wouldn't it be wise to read the first post and those that followed prior to posting such a question?
Short answer: This has NOTHING TO DO with "rod bearings" and everything to do with bad ECU software.
10-04-2007 | 08:52 PM
#279
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 112
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by spiike
Are you guys sure it isn't rod bearings? Because honda is known for that problem...
10-04-2007 | 08:54 PM
#280
AZ Community Team
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 32,488
Likes: 7,771
From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Originally Posted by FRST4DR
Well Client Services was useless. I called to report the problem and she put me on hold and then came back and said "what octane are you using?" I told her 93, she said and I quote "The manual says to use 91 octane" (Like this was my problem) I told her I don’t have access to 91. Just 87, 89, 93. Then she says "oh yeah 91 or higher, well I can't do anything for you; sorry" and that was it.
I took it to the dealer today as I had an appointment, and spoke with the service manager. He was aware of the problem but could not change anything on the car to keep it from accruing. He told me that another driver put an AEM intake on their car and reduced the pinging. I’m not frustrated with the dealer as their hands are somewhat tied, I am with Acura though. Oh well I guess were stuck right now. Hopefully they are working on a fix. If not I guess I have a year to try and utilize the lemon law. Im not going to pay for this car for 4 1/2 more years and still have this problem.
I took it to the dealer today as I had an appointment, and spoke with the service manager. He was aware of the problem but could not change anything on the car to keep it from accruing. He told me that another driver put an AEM intake on their car and reduced the pinging. I’m not frustrated with the dealer as their hands are somewhat tied, I am with Acura though. Oh well I guess were stuck right now. Hopefully they are working on a fix. If not I guess I have a year to try and utilize the lemon law. Im not going to pay for this car for 4 1/2 more years and still have this problem.
Call back. Insist that they open a Case Number for you in the event the Pinging later causes damage.
I had no problem. I was neither impolite nor frustrated on the phone (I'm sure you weren't either).
I said, "I just returned from a dealer service appointment and while they acknowledged the problem, they were unable to fix it".
We then discussed the problem and I said "I want the problem documented at Acura in the event of future related damage or in the event that a TSB would be issued to resolve this problem."
She said, no problem, opened a case and gave me the number. I put then that informaiton in my Owners Link records.
Keep the faith, my friend. Have confidence that Acura will find a solution and issue a TSB.
