Nandito28

Miami, FL, I too have the 3 gear problem...I thought it was me untill now.

loud_whispers

Everyone should read what American Honda found with most of the test manual transmissions that were sent back to be diagnosed. They found only certain synchro's damaged and certain in good standing.

They found 6/10 people are skip shifting. Which is not warrantable and dealers are now told to road test with the customer to see if he is skip shifting. So you all, please be careful, and please DONT SKIP SHIFT! LOL

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/TS/BTS051201.PDF

good luck.

Brettg

Sounds like BS to me.
Many/most people have reported the problem under 8000 miles on the car, hardly enough time to do any damage no matter how you shift it.
Mine started giving problems under 4000 miles!
I do not know if problem is the right word, after all, it IS a manual transmission...
I never knew one to shift perfectly all the time, every time....

I could see skip shifting causing problems at 80,000 miles or something, but even then, the trans would be quite wimpy to have a problem from skip shifting....

I hate equipment that you have to operate just right or it breaks, that is just a sign the equipment is cheap junk.

Brett

loud_whispers

Get a car with a 5-speed trans. then.
You wanted a 6 speed with a close gear ratio, so don't abuse it.
You'd be suprised how much damage skip shifting can inflict.
It's not BS, just don't skip your shifts, that's all they are saying.

They're not saying "oh we're not going to warranty these gear sets any more!"..No they are saying DONT SKIP SHIFT, if you Skip shifts then obviously it's putting alot of abuse on these synchro's.

It should say it in your owners manual about not skipping shifts..1,2,3,4,5,6...in order.

So there.
All i have to say.

Adobeman

loud_whispers,
It makes sense that repeatedly skip shifting would cause the stresses on the synchronizers as said in the document you linked. Skip shifting isn't something I do. I happen to like the closer ratios. In fact given my proximity to the highway and that the majority of my driving is on the highway I probably do less shifts than other people have to per 100 miles driven.

But, it does seem that there are a number of owners observing some sort of issue with 3rd gear in particular. In many cases it seems to appear by about the 5000mi time. It also seems to respond to changing the MTF whether it be with Honda MTF or the GM fluid.

To be fair there are a mix of drivers out there but, if we take people at there word, many of them have had several MTs before (of various brands) and put lots of miles on each with no shifting issues. And, it always seems to be 3rd gear that people bring up. Not 2nd, not 4th but always 3rd. (at least at this BBS).

It isn't so much that it is a "problem" but rather that selecting all of the other gears in the car is perfect except sometimes 3rd. That probably makes it more noticeable but it definitely is noticeable in what can best be described as it "fighting back". The other thing is it isn't predictable and doesn't happen with every shift. It is just often enough to remind you about it. I'm not talking about shifts at high rpms either.

Do you have and thoughts or speculation about it ? You know a lot more about the car than most of us so I'd be interested in what you think may be going on. Even if you "weed" out some of the complaints due to driver error/misuse there are probably quite a few legitimate observations left.

Again, I'm not intending to complain. I love the car. I am just curious if you thought about it and had any ideas or comments.

Thanks,

Brettg

Who said I skip shift?
I never said that, and I dont.

What I said was it should not ruin a transmission in 8000 miles.

I still say its BS, no one has problems with any gear but 3rd, so what has skip shifting got to do with JUST 3rd gear, at 5000 miles no less???

There is no logic in blaming skip shifting on a 3rd gear only problem.

Or so it seems to me...

Brett

trancemission

I really dont feel that 3rd is much of an issue anymore since they put the Honda MTF in. I still get a notch every now and then but it really is much better. Why would anyone skip shift anyway? Im not getting that one?

Brettg

There are times when it makes sense, say you acclerate strongly in 3rd gear to merge onto the hiway where everyone is doing 65 mph, you take the engine up to say 5000 rpm's and get in lane, then you know you are just doing 65 mph, so why shift to 4th, let out the clutch (4500 rpm?), then push the clutch in and go to 5th, let out the clutch (4000 rpm?), push in the clutch, go to 6th, let out the clutch
(3000 rpm?) instead of just going to 6th?

There are no syncros on 5th or 6th gear, so its not going to hurt anything to go
from any gear into 5th or 6th gear......

Brett

trancemission

well that doesnt make sense to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat......

ttliang

fwiw. mine doesn't have any shifting problems. it's an 04. and i skip 4-6 a lot on highway.

Dave1315

I've got about 8500 miles on mine, and have been having the same problem since I got it. I had hoped that it would go away, but it did not.

I've been to the dealer several times. Initially they were dismissive/condescending and attributed it to "operator error." I've been driving only MT's forever (30+ years). We've gotten past that, although it took some lemon law discussions. It's not completely resolved - but here's where it stands now.

The dealer mentioned that the clutch must be pushed firmly to the floor. Obviously that would not the the sole cause of the 3rd gear problem, but just to be cooperative, I moved my seat forward an inch or so, and have gotten in the habit of clutching closer to the tip of my foot. That did actually make a difference - but not much (and the fact that the other gears have NEVER done this indicates some transmission issue).

Next, the dealer replaced the factory fill. I have no idea what they used, but since the service manual strongly suggests Honda MTF, I assume it was that. Again, it seemed a bit better, but still does it sometimes. Strange thing is that I cannot link this problem to anything at all (like when it's cold, hot, quick shift, slow shift, etc).

The dealer said that if the oil change did not help, THEY would order either the GM or Redline MTF and fill with that. The speculation is that the friction modifiers (or lack thereof actually) could help the syncros do their job better. They have that on order and will call me when it's in. I'll post the results following that.

They have said that they would yank the trans if that does not correct the problem. I can't think they'd fix it, but probably swap for another. I don't like the fix in a bottle solution - but I'm not crazy about yanking the trans either.

6MTrules

Agree. One of my favorite things to do is to merge onto the highway in 3rd gear - hit 5500 RPM and 70 MPH. Let that sing for a little bit just for pure enjoyment, and then go directly into 6th for cruising.

And BTW, my bad gear is 2nd, until it warms up after about 30 minutes, it sometimes totally refuses to engage on a cold tranny (like the first or second shift into 2nd). I can count on one hand when I had a bad shift into 3rd, so likely not the same problem.

Brettg

I have not heard or 2nd gear problems, but the GM mtf fm should eliminate that as well.

Brett

Enjoy6MT

-------------------
Manual Transmission TL owners:
I had posted a response to Kevin's original thread regarding a "notchy" 3rd gear because I experienced the same. After reading a lot of responses about changing the transmission fluid to Honda MTF or GM friction modified stuff, I took my TL to the dealer who I bought it from. The service manager was very professional and after keeping the car for 24 hours they have clearly identified an issue with the synchros. Although I was not a big fan of the service guys working on the transmission, this was clearly the best bet instead of living with the issue. They have ordered parts and will replace the "damaged" or "defective" synchros & other components, as required. I hope to get a better shifting TL back from the dealership. I will keep you guys informed about the outcome. I am praying as well that I hope another problem does not get introduced, as this one gets fixed. I had 9000 miles on my 2005 TL.

Juiced_Acura_Kidd

Same problem here...I have an 05 bought in April with 11,000. Not what I expect from Acura. The problem makes me grind my gears sometimes.

Enjoy6MT

Did you take it to the dealer? Is there anyone out there with this 3rd gear problem that had the synchros replaced? Most responses I have seen say that change of MT fluid fixed the issue. I am just curious to see if something else got introduced when they put everything together. Do you think it is worth requesting additional warranty from this point forward? (1 yr old TL, 9000 miles).

Adobeman

I do seem to remember another owner getting the synchos replaced and having the symptom reappear later. Anyone else remember seeing that ?

Brettg

What a waste of time!
It seems like almost ALL the manual trans cars have the 'problem', and the GM
stuff seems to be the fix.
I guess you could replace the syncros every 3000 miles or so, but the dealer is going to get tired of that....

Brett

Laxplaya11385

i actually have problems going from 1st to 2nd. Sometimes it doesn't engage all the way. After talking to my Acura dealership, all the tech manager said was, "it's the transmission fluid. You'll have to let the car warm up 1st."

Anyone know what i can do about this?

I don't want to have to sit there and let my car warm up all the time, b/c in another thread, i read that it's not helping the car in any way. (too lazy to look for the thread right now)

Brettg

Try the GM mtf-fm stuff, it will eliminate your problem.

Brett

stevel

I for one had the synchronizers, shift for and gear for third gear replaced under warranty by my dealer and not more than 50 miles of so later I had my first bad shift after the repair. so I don't think the problem resurfaced, it was just never gone. since then dealer changed my fluid to the gm fluid and I haven't had one bad shift yet.......

Laxplaya11385

i was actually considering it, but the dealership said it would void warranty (which i already knew...haha), and a friend of mine actually used it in his car, and he said it was fine but as the car got older (over 80,000 miles) he said it actually caused the box to be sticky, so i want to try to stay away from it.

stevel

find a more reasonable dealership. my dealers district rep from Acura authorized the fluid change under warranty, paid for by Acura warranty. as documented as such, their decision to change the fluid cannot void warranty. so just work on your dealer a little.

how does your friend know the fluid caused the gear box to get "sticky" with age, and not just the age and wear of the transmission irregarldless of what fluid was in it????

Brettg

Well, I would change it every so often, not just run it for 80,000 miles.
You could also mix 50/50% oem fluid and the GM stuff.
There is no way they can tell if you run the GM stuff, it looks exactly like the oem fluid, and is the same viscosity.
I changed mine to the GM stuff, ran it for 3000 miles, then changed it again and it showed no additinal wear metal, and did not look dirty, so there is no excessive wear from using the GM stuff.
I plan on changing it again after say 10,000 miles and checking it for wear metal.

I think the S2000 guys have been using if for some time with great results.

Brett

Laxplaya11385

yeah, im' gonna go to the other acura dealership and see if they'll do anything about it. As for my friend. He eventually swapped out the GM Syncromesh and put OEM fluid in the car, and he said it fixed the "sticky" problem. Call it BS, but I have nothing to base it on, so i believe him haha.

6MTrules

(I have the 2nd gear issue - very stiff and sometimes grinds when cold.)

I just took my TL in for its first service, and had them do a (complimentary) MT fluid change, to see if would help. I didn't have my hopes up, and it nope, didn't help. I am petrified of putting in GMSM, for warranty issues.

BTW, when it is warmed up after about 30-45 minutes of suburban driving, it finally becomes very smooth.

Brettg

I just cant understand why anyone would worry about changing the fluid to the gm stuff. its not like acura could tell its not the OEM fluid, or would deny any warenty claims because you ran a different brand lube...
They wont deny you if you run something other then the OEM engine oil, brake fluid, coolant, and I have not heard of a manual trans failing, just shifting problems from impropper syncro operation (not wear).

We have also heard someone ran it for 80,000 miles, then put the OEM stuff back in and the transmission still worked....

Brett

95MKiby

My 05 6spd is just over 600 miles. I too have some issue with the 2nd gear. It refuses to go in sometimes. I have to skip it and go to the 3rd gear instead. Cold weather definitely makes the matter worse.

Juiced_Acura_Kidd

I just got the car back from the dealer today. It was there for 2 days. They test drove it a total of 17 miles in two days and couldn't find what I was talking about. After the first day I printed out this entire thread (40 pages) and personally handed it to the service center at my dealership so they could educate them selves on my problem. And still no luck...they couldn't detect the problem but I know its there. They wouldn't even change the MTF bc they said that Acura was unaware of this problem and they couldn't authorize any service for my car. If I wanted it changed....i would have to pay in full. So they gave me this number to call (1800 - 4 A ACURA) to make a claim for future reference. They told me that no body has mentioned anything about the 3rd gear problem. If you have a Manual TL with 3rd gear problem...call this number and make a claim so they can know that it is an issue. Now after losing my car for 2 days...I get it back still with the problem. Any ideas guys??

vingengi

After 3,200 miles and 2 months of owning my TL, I finally decided to take the car to the dealer and have them replace the transmission fluid. Like some of you that posted in this thread, I have the "2nd" gear issue - hard to shift to 2nd (notchy) and sometimes it grinds. This happens the frist 15 to 30 minutes of driving. After that, shifting is smooth. I took the car to the same dealer the creator of this thread mentioned. I did NOT have to explain myself in detail, they knew exactly what I was talking about. They replaced the transmission fluid with BG Syncro Shift 2 fluid. Well, the good news is it was FREE and it was done in an hour. The bad news is, I don't think it helped! Yes, I still cringe driving/shifting the first 15 to 30 minutes. Is it time to switch to GM Synchromesh stuff??? I thought the BG stuff is similar to GM....I mean they are both synthetic stuff, right?

Brettg

The GM stuff is semi synthetic.
It all has to do with the friction modifiers, the BG stuff is likely completely different stuff. The friction modified part is what changes how the syncro's work.
I suppose something very slippery wont allow the syncros to spin the gear up
to speed, it just slips....

We have 8600 miles on our car now, with the Gm stuff in for the last 5000 miles, and it still shifts nice, hot or cold.

Brett

vingengi

Thanks Brettg! I guess there is still HOPE

What is interesting is at first I thought the cold weather has a lot with it. But our weather has been unseasonably mild the past weeks and this 2nd gear issue never fails to appear during start ups.

Do you think I need to completely flush the BG stuff out before filling it with the GM stuff? Or is it ok to mix/match a bit?

Thanks!

trancemission

I can not believe they didnt at least do a fluid change, that is such bullshit..

My dealer told me they never heard of it either but at least they believed me.

Dave1315

I've had a problem with 3rd gear since I got the car. I have an earlier post in this thread concerning several trips to the dealer without any progress. A couple weeks ago the dealer told me they'd order one of the synthetic oils for the trans (either BG or Redline). Three days ago they drained the 2nd factory fill and replaced it with Redline MT-90 (similar to Redline MTL, but a little heavier).

I'm happy to say that the 3rd gear problem has not happened once since they installed the Redline. I am hoping that this will finally resolve the problem.

According to Redline, many of the MT oils are too slippery, so the synchros do not equalize (come up to speed) as quickly. Redline (and presumably the others) have friction modifiers which increase the coefficient of friction - which helps the synchros.

Note the the problem I had was specifically with 3rd gear, never any of the others. It was not related to temperature at all. Hot, cold, it did not matter. The only thing I noticed was that it seemed to happen more often if I was in traffic and shifting to third at lower rpms (under 3000).

I don't know about the other "synthetic" oils - but most currently on the market are actually still petroleum-based (since many years ago the courts ruled that "synthetic" was a marketing term). When that ruling came down, most companies switched back to the more highly refined conventional oil. These are called Group III oils.

True synthetics are PAO oils (Group IV) and Ester oils (Group V). Ester is currently considered the "best" but both are excellent. The Redline oil uses the Ester basestock.

If you want to learn all sorts of good stuff about oils, you can find it at the following link. It's in the context of motorcycles - but the info is good for any engine.

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

This is some Redline propaganda on their MT oils. MTL is what they recommend for Honda/Acura, but my dealer used MT-90, which I think will be fine (and has cured the problem COMPLETELY) - at least so far !!!

http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/13.pdf

Brettg

No, you just do it like an oil change, remove drain plug, let it pour out, then fill with the new stuff.
You should drain it after a drive when the metal is in suspension.

Take a close look at the lube that comes out, so you can compare it in the future.

Red line 90 weight gear lube is a LOT thicker than the oem or GM fluid.
Thicker is better up to a point, more protection, better shock load protection, the downside is power loss (and mpg loss) of moving gears through real thick lube.
90 weight is REAL thick in the winter! It also can not penetrate into tight spaces, which might get lube starved.
I would have tried the mobil 1 75w 90 or 75w140 gear lube, its 75 weight cold,
better then 90 weight!

Brett

ttliang

i used to drive hard/race my civic. i remember i used mobil 1 75w90 for 2 years. i had to replace two burned gears (2nd and 3rd). Honda told me it was way to thick for that MT. that's few years back. i'd be careful if i were u.

Dave1315

Read up on oils and viscosities. Also, this was installed by an Acura dealer.

Brettg

What am I supposed to read about oils and viscosities?

The OEM fluid is like a 10 or 20 weight oil, 90 weight gear lube is 90 weight, and very thick. In the cold, its like glue.

Just because an Acura dealer puts it in does not make it right, or good, although your warenty should be ok.

I guess we will see how things hold up with it.

Brett

Dave1315

There are 2 DIFFERENT SAE standards here. One for ENGINES, another for GEARS. The 10w30 figure we see are for engines, a GEAR oil OF THE SAME VISCOSITY is 70W80.

Honda/Acura does not seem to specify the weight - only that we should use Honda MTF (but in a pinch, we can use 10W30 engine oil). The aftermarket oil producers (Redline, Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc) indicate that the Acuras factory GEAR oil is 70W80 (hence the 10W30 "in a pinch").

The Redline MT-90 is SLIGHTLY heavier - but still a multi-vis oil at only 75W90 - not that much heaver than the factory fill 70W80.

The following is a link to a chart that shows the differences between engine and gear oils. That site also has some good info on oils.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

ttliang

i ain't oil kings like michaelwan or chuckdu. they can probably toss in more theories and stuff. all i can tell you is what happened to my civic gears after 2 yrs using 75w90. good luck.