misfires
09-26-2010, 03:58 PM
#1
misfires
Heres the story.
2 days ago I start the car after it was sitting over night. After about 30 seconds, the cel starts blinking and I hear a knocking noise coming from the motor. I scan the code and I had 7 cels for a misfire on each cylinder and random misfire. I clear the codes and start the car again. This time im only getting misfires on cylinder 6.
I clear the code, reset the battery and put in a new coil pack in cylinder 6. I let the car idle for 15 minutes and take if for a drive. No cel and the car is driving fine. I figure it was a bad coil. I continue to drive the car to a few places throughout the night and no more problems.
The following day I start the car after its been sitting over night and once again I get a cel and misfires on every cylinder. I decided to change out all the zex hyperformance spark plugs and put the 2 step colder ngk's back in. Ive been using the zex plugs for about 6 weeks with no problems.
I did notice that some of the plugs were not snug at all. I needed very little effort to break the plugs free. I know the specs are only 13lbs but some felt very loose.
I start the car with the ngks and it idles fine and drives fine for the rest of the day. Later on in the night during a 3rd gear wot, I got more misfires on every cylinder by the top of 3rd and the a/f was pinned at 10 flat when the misfires happened.
Today the car started fine, idle'd fine and drove fine. No misfires during this time. However I got more misfires on the top of 3rd gear just like the night before.
Whats going on here?
2 days ago I start the car after it was sitting over night. After about 30 seconds, the cel starts blinking and I hear a knocking noise coming from the motor. I scan the code and I had 7 cels for a misfire on each cylinder and random misfire. I clear the codes and start the car again. This time im only getting misfires on cylinder 6.
I clear the code, reset the battery and put in a new coil pack in cylinder 6. I let the car idle for 15 minutes and take if for a drive. No cel and the car is driving fine. I figure it was a bad coil. I continue to drive the car to a few places throughout the night and no more problems.
The following day I start the car after its been sitting over night and once again I get a cel and misfires on every cylinder. I decided to change out all the zex hyperformance spark plugs and put the 2 step colder ngk's back in. Ive been using the zex plugs for about 6 weeks with no problems.
I did notice that some of the plugs were not snug at all. I needed very little effort to break the plugs free. I know the specs are only 13lbs but some felt very loose.
I start the car with the ngks and it idles fine and drives fine for the rest of the day. Later on in the night during a 3rd gear wot, I got more misfires on every cylinder by the top of 3rd and the a/f was pinned at 10 flat when the misfires happened.
Today the car started fine, idle'd fine and drove fine. No misfires during this time. However I got more misfires on the top of 3rd gear just like the night before.
Whats going on here?
09-26-2010, 09:12 PM
#2
Safety Car
Good descriptive text of the problem. However, I have no immediate ideas. I will think on it and let you know if I think of anything.
Prior to the misfiring first occurring, you made no other changes to the car right?
Prior to the misfiring first occurring, you made no other changes to the car right?
09-26-2010, 09:35 PM
#3
Team Owner
Plugs getting loose is a sign of bad detonation. Are you monitoring knock?
I hate to say it but it's time to check the oil and do a compression test.
Misfires at idle many times are compression related. Misfires under load are usually ignition related.
I hate to say it but it's time to check the oil and do a compression test.
Misfires at idle many times are compression related. Misfires under load are usually ignition related.
Last edited by I hate cars; 09-26-2010 at 09:41 PM.
09-26-2010, 09:39 PM
#4
Team Owner
Just looked at those Zex plugs. You can't run a gimmick (multi-electrode) plug especially with a stock ignition and under boost. They don't work. These types of plugs will cause detonation and misfires even though the descriptions says they will prevent detonation. You MUST stick with boring regular plain plugs at least 2 ranges colder if not 3 ranges colder. I would not do iridium, I would do plain copper and change them at 20,000 mile intevals for boost.
Misfires will always peg the AF rich. You have raw fuel entering the exhaust. It's probably not a rich condition causing the misfires but the misfires causing a (fake) rich condition.
Misfires will always peg the AF rich. You have raw fuel entering the exhaust. It's probably not a rich condition causing the misfires but the misfires causing a (fake) rich condition.
09-26-2010, 09:51 PM
#5
Prior to the misfiring first occurring, I
made no other changes to the car. Several days ago I did install larger meth nozzles. 2 175 nozzles.
I am not monitoring knock right now. I was planning to buy the same knock monitor as Inaccurate when I get some more money.
Would lose plugs cause misfires? If one cylinder starts to misfire does it start a chain of events and the other cylinders misfire as well?
I thought the water/meth would help a great deal to prevent detonation? Would the car detonate at idle?
Im using 93 octane from shell for the first time. I always use 93 from hess but I dont think I have bad gas.
Do you guys know of any scanners that can read the stock knock sensor? I would rather shell out a few more bucks for a scanner that can read the stock sensor instead of trying to drill and tap the block for a new sensor.
I know there is a TSB ( i think its 03-033) that updates the pcm because the pcm falsely interpretes a signal that causes the misfires codes to appear when there is no actuall misfire.
made no other changes to the car. Several days ago I did install larger meth nozzles. 2 175 nozzles.
I am not monitoring knock right now. I was planning to buy the same knock monitor as Inaccurate when I get some more money.
Would lose plugs cause misfires? If one cylinder starts to misfire does it start a chain of events and the other cylinders misfire as well?
I thought the water/meth would help a great deal to prevent detonation? Would the car detonate at idle?
Im using 93 octane from shell for the first time. I always use 93 from hess but I dont think I have bad gas.
Do you guys know of any scanners that can read the stock knock sensor? I would rather shell out a few more bucks for a scanner that can read the stock sensor instead of trying to drill and tap the block for a new sensor.
I know there is a TSB ( i think its 03-033) that updates the pcm because the pcm falsely interpretes a signal that causes the misfires codes to appear when there is no actuall misfire.
09-26-2010, 09:58 PM
#6
Team Owner
Hopefully it's that ECU update you mentioned but if you heard a weird noise while the CEL was blinking it's not likely it's false.
If damage occured from knock, it's already done but it wouldn't hurt to give it a scan just to see what's going on.
A loose plug can cause a misfire if there's not a good electrical path but it's not often that happens. I've seen them so loose that it sounded like a knock from the combustion getting past them and they still fired.
Misfires are usually a result of detonation. The car doesn't have to be detonating to have a misfire, it misfires because you've lost compression due to the detonation.
Is it possible your meth is leaking by when off? This would cause misfires especially at idle. It might run fine and then you rev it once and it pulls the puddled water/meth into the engine.
If damage occured from knock, it's already done but it wouldn't hurt to give it a scan just to see what's going on.
A loose plug can cause a misfire if there's not a good electrical path but it's not often that happens. I've seen them so loose that it sounded like a knock from the combustion getting past them and they still fired.
Misfires are usually a result of detonation. The car doesn't have to be detonating to have a misfire, it misfires because you've lost compression due to the detonation.
Is it possible your meth is leaking by when off? This would cause misfires especially at idle. It might run fine and then you rev it once and it pulls the puddled water/meth into the engine.
09-26-2010, 10:14 PM
#7
I was never able to get my car to run without misfiring while on those zex plugs, I'm running the two stage cooler ngk's with no issues. I had my car misfire when trying out new tunes and some nasty afr readings. I think reading the knock sensor is going to require a more expensive scanner that any of us can justify. ( $3000 snap on ) I think data logging is going to be your best bet until you can find out what's causing the misfire, but take it easy.
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09-26-2010, 10:18 PM
#8
I dont think its possible for the meth to be leaking. I installed a soleniod to prevent siphoning. Doesnt that prevent the liquid from being pulled through the tube when the pump is off? Theres always the possibility that the solenoid is broken but I doubt it. I wired it correctly.
Ill stick with the 2 step colder ngks for now. I didnt have any misfires or problems with the smaller nozzles. Could larger nozzles cause any problems? Im not expierencing and bucking or bogging throughout the entire powerband.
How can I scan the ecm for signs of knock? Do you know any scanners I can buy?
Ill look into doing a compression test. Is this something I can do on my own?
appreciate the help guys
Ill stick with the 2 step colder ngks for now. I didnt have any misfires or problems with the smaller nozzles. Could larger nozzles cause any problems? Im not expierencing and bucking or bogging throughout the entire powerband.
How can I scan the ecm for signs of knock? Do you know any scanners I can buy?
Ill look into doing a compression test. Is this something I can do on my own?
appreciate the help guys
09-26-2010, 10:32 PM
#9
Hi speed, that makes me feel a little better about switching back to the colder ngks.
I know its only been one day since switching back to the ngks but the car idles fine and normal driving is fine. It was just misfiring on the top of 3rd on 2 different occasions
I know its only been one day since switching back to the ngks but the car idles fine and normal driving is fine. It was just misfiring on the top of 3rd on 2 different occasions
09-26-2010, 10:51 PM
#10
Team Owner
I dont think its possible for the meth to be leaking. I installed a soleniod to prevent siphoning. Doesnt that prevent the liquid from being pulled through the tube when the pump is off? Theres always the possibility that the solenoid is broken but I doubt it. I wired it correctly.
Ill stick with the 2 step colder ngks for now. I didnt have any misfires or problems with the smaller nozzles. Could larger nozzles cause any problems? Im not expierencing and bucking or bogging throughout the entire powerband.
How can I scan the ecm for signs of knock? Do you know any scanners I can buy?
Ill look into doing a compression test. Is this something I can do on my own?
appreciate the help guys
Ill stick with the 2 step colder ngks for now. I didnt have any misfires or problems with the smaller nozzles. Could larger nozzles cause any problems? Im not expierencing and bucking or bogging throughout the entire powerband.
How can I scan the ecm for signs of knock? Do you know any scanners I can buy?
Ill look into doing a compression test. Is this something I can do on my own?
appreciate the help guys
Make sure the plugs are gapped down less than factory specs or you will get misfires under high boost.
Too much meth at full throttle can cause misfires.
As you increase fuel delivery and boost it puts more demand on the electrical system. Generally as boost and especially methanol as a supplimental fuel go up, plug gap has to get smaller. The alternative is to buy a higher output coil if one is made for our cars.
There is one other thing that I've done for years and I don't recommend it because I have absolutely no idea how the TL will tolerate it. Going to a 15-16V alternator will really wake things up. Ignition, fuelpump/injectors, everything electrical. Some cars will tolerate it with 100% reliability and some won't. Maybe this should be for another thread.
How did the plugs you pulled out look? Any aluminum specks on the electrode or ceramic?
My writing is pretty disorganized but to recap, the first thing I would so is eliminate the meth as a problem by emptying it.
Second, read the old plugs.
Third, make sure the gap is 50%-75% of factory spec.
I prefer non iridium plugs for boost.
If you still can't find the issue, do a compression check. Once you have the plugs out it's very easy and quick and you can do it yourself.
Last and unrelated but are you running a good 30wt oil?
09-26-2010, 10:51 PM
#11
Team Owner
What was the gap?
09-26-2010, 11:19 PM
#12
The solenoid should prevent this but it's also unnecessary as long as the nozzle is before the throttlebody. Maybe you can leave the reservior and lines dry overnight and try it out again, maybe a lower boost just to be safe.
Make sure the plugs are gapped down less than factory specs or you will get misfires under high boost.
Too much meth at full throttle can cause misfires.
As you increase fuel delivery and boost it puts more demand on the electrical system. Generally as boost and especially methanol as a supplimental fuel go up, plug gap has to get smaller. The alternative is to buy a higher output coil if one is made for our cars.
There is one other thing that I've done for years and I don't recommend it because I have absolutely no idea how the TL will tolerate it. Going to a 15-16V alternator will really wake things up. Ignition, fuelpump/injectors, everything electrical. Some cars will tolerate it with 100% reliability and some won't. Maybe this should be for another thread.
How did the plugs you pulled out look? Any aluminum specks on the electrode or ceramic?
My writing is pretty disorganized but to recap, the first thing I would so is eliminate the meth as a problem by emptying it.
Second, read the old plugs.
Third, make sure the gap is 50%-75% of factory spec.
I prefer non iridium plugs for boost.
If you still can't find the issue, do a compression check. Once you have the plugs out it's very easy and quick and you can do it yourself.
Last and unrelated but are you running a good 30wt oil?
Make sure the plugs are gapped down less than factory specs or you will get misfires under high boost.
Too much meth at full throttle can cause misfires.
As you increase fuel delivery and boost it puts more demand on the electrical system. Generally as boost and especially methanol as a supplimental fuel go up, plug gap has to get smaller. The alternative is to buy a higher output coil if one is made for our cars.
There is one other thing that I've done for years and I don't recommend it because I have absolutely no idea how the TL will tolerate it. Going to a 15-16V alternator will really wake things up. Ignition, fuelpump/injectors, everything electrical. Some cars will tolerate it with 100% reliability and some won't. Maybe this should be for another thread.
How did the plugs you pulled out look? Any aluminum specks on the electrode or ceramic?
My writing is pretty disorganized but to recap, the first thing I would so is eliminate the meth as a problem by emptying it.
Second, read the old plugs.
Third, make sure the gap is 50%-75% of factory spec.
I prefer non iridium plugs for boost.
If you still can't find the issue, do a compression check. Once you have the plugs out it's very easy and quick and you can do it yourself.
Last and unrelated but are you running a good 30wt oil?
The ngks are gapped to .020 stock is .043 I think. These are the plugs
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-2668/
I think the plugs all looked fine. No aluminum flakes anywhere.
I can just unhook the meth controller and cap the one small line coming off the nozzles.
Gap is good but I am using iridium plugs.
Im using redline 5 30. However, I do seem to be losing about 1/2 quart or more of oil every 2 weeks or so and I dont have any leaks.
No misfires tonight on the top of 3rd either.
09-26-2010, 11:46 PM
#15
^Yea I dont know whats going on with the oil. It was consuming oil before the turbo also. BUT, it only started eating oil since I switched to redline from mobile 1
Im going to rent a compression gauge from autozone and do it myself. Looks easy enough after reading the service manual.
But I dont understand the part about turning off the injectors. Of course the dealer can do this with the hds software but how are we supposed to do this ourselves?
Im going to rent a compression gauge from autozone and do it myself. Looks easy enough after reading the service manual.
But I dont understand the part about turning off the injectors. Of course the dealer can do this with the hds software but how are we supposed to do this ourselves?
09-27-2010, 12:15 AM
#16
Safety Car
Bert,
Do you have a very powerful magnifying glass (loupe). Something in the 8X to 16X power range?
If so, look at the ground strap and center electrode on the plugs. Look for beads/balls of molten metal sitting on the surface of the ground electrode. It looks like splatter from molten metal similar to splatter from welding. Well, because that is what it is….. molten aluminum from the piston being splattered onto the spark plug due to detonation.
I used this method in my early days when I was using nitrous on my Camaro. I got plenty of experience spotting the tiny balls of aluminum on the plugs.
09-27-2010, 12:18 AM
#17
Safety Car
I had been using Mobil 1 0w-20. I recently switched to RedLine 0w-20. I have used the RedLine for 10k miles. Right before my last oil change after 7k miles of usage, my oil level was still reading Full.
09-27-2010, 12:33 AM
#18
I uploaded a pic of one of the plugs. Save the pic and zoom in on your comp.
http://img690.imageshack.us/i/cimg1057v.jpg/
are those little specs metal shavings that you speak of?
http://img690.imageshack.us/i/cimg1057v.jpg/
are those little specs metal shavings that you speak of?
09-27-2010, 12:44 AM
#19
Safety Car
Can you get the same picture but hold the plug at apporx 45 degree angle? The pic above has great lighting, focus, and resolution. But, I have a hard time seeing any beads because I am viewing it head-on (flat perspective). If from an angle, I would be able to see it more in a 3D perseptive.
09-27-2010, 01:27 AM
#21
Safety Car
Excellent Bert ! Damn good job on taking the pics.
The plugs do have the molten balls on the ground straps. At least to my eyes. How bad is it? I feel more comfortable to let IHC to say. To my limited experience reading plugs with nitrous, your's look like cause for concern..... But IHC has the experience with tuning the turbo, so let's see what he says about the plugs.
The plugs do have the molten balls on the ground straps. At least to my eyes. How bad is it? I feel more comfortable to let IHC to say. To my limited experience reading plugs with nitrous, your's look like cause for concern..... But IHC has the experience with tuning the turbo, so let's see what he says about the plugs.
09-27-2010, 01:33 AM
#22
Safety Car
We really need to have you to use a wire brush (by hand or electric wheel) and brush that ground strap. Brush the ground strap until it looks polished. Don’t grind it…. Just use a wire brush very aggressively. Take another pic like the last set of pics.
Do this with the brush will help us to come to a firm conclusion. I just want to make sure that those are not some sort of deposits that will flake off with the brush.
If that is really molten balls, the brush will not be able to remove them. And if they are molten balls, we have major detonation in my opinion.
Do this with the brush will help us to come to a firm conclusion. I just want to make sure that those are not some sort of deposits that will flake off with the brush.
If that is really molten balls, the brush will not be able to remove them. And if they are molten balls, we have major detonation in my opinion.
Last edited by Inaccurate; 09-27-2010 at 01:36 AM.
09-27-2010, 02:07 PM
#26
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Waiting on the #'s
09-27-2010, 07:01 PM
#27
Compression check will have to wait until at least wednesday since it wont stop raining for a few days.
After doing a lot of research all day I hope Ive come up with answer to my misfires. For the time being, Im going to blame the misfires on 2 things. 1. the zex plugs 2. the water/meth
Right now Im using 2 175ml nozzles set to START spraying at just over 1psi of boost. Max pump pressure is at 4psi and Im pushing 8psi total. I was using 2 100ml nozzles last week with the same settings and having no problems
I wanted to start spraying early to richen up a very lean mixture at partial throttle. Unfortunately this wasnt working and the a/f under partial throttle never dropped below 14 when the boost would be around 2-4psi.
Fast forward to wot. At only 4psi the pump is maxing itself out and pushing way to much water/meth for the motor handle. To me it seems like I was experiencing a hard quench. The motor actually misfires and loses power b/c too much fluid is being injected and preventing ignition
So I have 2 options for running this water/meth and Ill have to see which one works best.
1. Since the partial throttle idea didnt work, Im changing the starting psi to around 3 or 4 and max to 7 regardless of what size nozzles I use.
2. Move back down to the smaller nozzles if #1 doesnt stop the misfires with the larger nozzles.
Heres the pics of the SAME plug in the previous picture after I cleaned it up. I used a steel brush to clean up the plug. I really wish I had a brand new plug to compare it too. How does it look now?
Links for full pics
http://img444.imageshack.us/i/cimg1084o.jpg/
http://img818.imageshack.us/i/cimg1090.jpg/
After doing a lot of research all day I hope Ive come up with answer to my misfires. For the time being, Im going to blame the misfires on 2 things. 1. the zex plugs 2. the water/meth
Right now Im using 2 175ml nozzles set to START spraying at just over 1psi of boost. Max pump pressure is at 4psi and Im pushing 8psi total. I was using 2 100ml nozzles last week with the same settings and having no problems
I wanted to start spraying early to richen up a very lean mixture at partial throttle. Unfortunately this wasnt working and the a/f under partial throttle never dropped below 14 when the boost would be around 2-4psi.
Fast forward to wot. At only 4psi the pump is maxing itself out and pushing way to much water/meth for the motor handle. To me it seems like I was experiencing a hard quench. The motor actually misfires and loses power b/c too much fluid is being injected and preventing ignition
So I have 2 options for running this water/meth and Ill have to see which one works best.
1. Since the partial throttle idea didnt work, Im changing the starting psi to around 3 or 4 and max to 7 regardless of what size nozzles I use.
2. Move back down to the smaller nozzles if #1 doesnt stop the misfires with the larger nozzles.
Heres the pics of the SAME plug in the previous picture after I cleaned it up. I used a steel brush to clean up the plug. I really wish I had a brand new plug to compare it too. How does it look now?
Links for full pics
http://img444.imageshack.us/i/cimg1084o.jpg/
http://img818.imageshack.us/i/cimg1090.jpg/
09-27-2010, 07:07 PM
#28
I also read a few things about running colder plugs on turbo setups with the addition of water/meth. Im running a 2 step colder then stock plug now. Some have said that I should only be running 1 step colder now since I started using the water meth. With the addition of water/meth and a plug that is too cold you could be killing the flame and misfiring. What do you think?
09-27-2010, 07:53 PM
#29
Safety Car
Plugs are showing no signs of detonation now. Whew. What a relief. If those were metal balls, the news was going to get ugly real quick.
I agree with the too much water idea for your misfires under a load. But, I don’t see the connection to your misfires at start-up. Like you said, it could be the Zex plugs causing the start-up misfires.
As a side note (contrary to popular belief), the oem ecu produces a very lean a/f during the first 5-8 seconds when the engine fires-up from a dead cold temp. According to my wideband, the oem a/f mixture is 15.0 (from my memory) a/f ratio for the first 5-8 seconds when starting the cold engine.
I recommend that you go back to your previous setup that was working (2 x 100 ml). But go with the NGK plugs that are 2 colder and copper core and gapped smaller like others had suggested.
So I have 2 options for running this water/meth and Ill have to see which one works best.
1. Since the partial throttle idea didnt work, Im changing the starting psi to around 3 or 4 and max to 7 regardless of what size nozzles I use.
2. Move back down to the smaller nozzles if #1 doesnt stop the misfires with the larger nozzles.
Three options-
3. Run pure methanol, not a w/m mixture. You will be able to get closer to an ideal a/f ratio without worrying about killing the flame.
I agree with the too much water idea for your misfires under a load. But, I don’t see the connection to your misfires at start-up. Like you said, it could be the Zex plugs causing the start-up misfires.
As a side note (contrary to popular belief), the oem ecu produces a very lean a/f during the first 5-8 seconds when the engine fires-up from a dead cold temp. According to my wideband, the oem a/f mixture is 15.0 (from my memory) a/f ratio for the first 5-8 seconds when starting the cold engine.
I recommend that you go back to your previous setup that was working (2 x 100 ml). But go with the NGK plugs that are 2 colder and copper core and gapped smaller like others had suggested.
So I have 2 options for running this water/meth and Ill have to see which one works best.
1. Since the partial throttle idea didnt work, Im changing the starting psi to around 3 or 4 and max to 7 regardless of what size nozzles I use.
2. Move back down to the smaller nozzles if #1 doesnt stop the misfires with the larger nozzles.
3. Run pure methanol, not a w/m mixture. You will be able to get closer to an ideal a/f ratio without worrying about killing the flame.
09-27-2010, 08:46 PM
#30
Plugs are showing no signs of detonation now. Whew. What a relief. If those were metal balls, the news was going to get ugly real quick.
I agree with the too much water idea for your misfires under a load. But, I don’t see the connection to your misfires at start-up. Like you said, it could be the Zex plugs causing the start-up misfires.
As a side note (contrary to popular belief), the oem ecu produces a very lean a/f during the first 5-8 seconds when the engine fires-up from a dead cold temp. According to my wideband, the oem a/f mixture is 15.0 (from my memory) a/f ratio for the first 5-8 seconds when starting the cold engine.
I recommend that you go back to your previous setup that was working (2 x 100 ml). But go with the NGK plugs that are 2 colder and copper core and gapped smaller like others had suggested.
Three options-
3. Run pure methanol, not a w/m mixture. You will be able to get closer to an ideal a/f ratio without worrying about killing the flame.
I agree with the too much water idea for your misfires under a load. But, I don’t see the connection to your misfires at start-up. Like you said, it could be the Zex plugs causing the start-up misfires.
As a side note (contrary to popular belief), the oem ecu produces a very lean a/f during the first 5-8 seconds when the engine fires-up from a dead cold temp. According to my wideband, the oem a/f mixture is 15.0 (from my memory) a/f ratio for the first 5-8 seconds when starting the cold engine.
I recommend that you go back to your previous setup that was working (2 x 100 ml). But go with the NGK plugs that are 2 colder and copper core and gapped smaller like others had suggested.
Three options-
3. Run pure methanol, not a w/m mixture. You will be able to get closer to an ideal a/f ratio without worrying about killing the flame.
Like I mentioned earlier, some of the zex plugs were very loose when I pulled them out. Maybe that was causing the idle misfires...IDK. But, I havent had any more idle misfires since putting the ngk's back in.
regarding the lean mix at idle from a cold start...my car is actually the total opposite now. After a cold start, the a/f climbs down to 12 then climbs back up to 14.5-15.3. This happens within the first 10 seconds. I guess that has to do with the crushed fpr then the ecu tries to correct that.
I know a big part of the problem was having the water/meth spraying too soon and at a low psi. It will take some trial and error to find the sweet spot but ill get it.
Since byemer and rodney both have units they are working on for partial throttle enrichment, Im not going to try and use the meth to solve that problem.
Pure methanol....maybe
09-27-2010, 08:54 PM
#31
Team Owner
Something funny is going on. Those plugs don't look right. It almost looks like you're burning oil with a lot of ZDDP and getting some kind of weird ash buildup.
Plugs that come out of a turbo car should look the same as a non turbo car and yours look pitted with deposits.
With water/meth they should look like they just came out of the box brand new. Are you sure it's actually working?
Running too cold of a plug won't affect it under throttle. It will just foul out quicker at part throttle and just like my GN if I run it around for too long at part throttle it will get a random misfire that I get rid of by opening it up for a couple seconds.
I would not say you're out of the woods yet. As Inaccurate said, run straight meth to get the proper AF ratio. Water is a complete waste and reduces performance and tunability unless you're really worried about the safety of straight meth.
You've got to understand that you're running extremely lean at part throttle but under nearly full boost. It does not matter where the pedal is, if you're seeing full boost at 1/2 throttle and your AF is near 15, you're detonating exactly the same as if the pedal were to the floor.
This is exactly the reason I stress the importance of a knock guage above any other guage. It takes the guess work out of things and protects the engine.
Plugs that come out of a turbo car should look the same as a non turbo car and yours look pitted with deposits.
With water/meth they should look like they just came out of the box brand new. Are you sure it's actually working?
Running too cold of a plug won't affect it under throttle. It will just foul out quicker at part throttle and just like my GN if I run it around for too long at part throttle it will get a random misfire that I get rid of by opening it up for a couple seconds.
I would not say you're out of the woods yet. As Inaccurate said, run straight meth to get the proper AF ratio. Water is a complete waste and reduces performance and tunability unless you're really worried about the safety of straight meth.
You've got to understand that you're running extremely lean at part throttle but under nearly full boost. It does not matter where the pedal is, if you're seeing full boost at 1/2 throttle and your AF is near 15, you're detonating exactly the same as if the pedal were to the floor.
This is exactly the reason I stress the importance of a knock guage above any other guage. It takes the guess work out of things and protects the engine.
09-27-2010, 09:10 PM
#32
I think I am burning oil. I remember you telling me a while back that the first few times you use redline it has the tendency to disappear but it should stop doing that after a few oil changes. Not the case for me. Like i said, Im not leaking anywhere. Ill pull the ngks that are in there now after a week or so and see if they have the same ash looking buildup on them.
Im positive the meth is working. Iats drop significantly when the pump light is on. Sometimes as much as 25-30* through a wot run. Plus Ive used about 1 gallon of water/meth in 10 days. The tank is almost half empty and I filled it up to the top when I first started spraying.
Im already running rich without the water/meth in every gear. Mid to low 11s sometimes. I know I need another tune. Why would I want to go lower then that by using pure meth? Ive been avoiding partial throttle and boost for the most part until I get one of these piggyback units.
Im positive the meth is working. Iats drop significantly when the pump light is on. Sometimes as much as 25-30* through a wot run. Plus Ive used about 1 gallon of water/meth in 10 days. The tank is almost half empty and I filled it up to the top when I first started spraying.
Im already running rich without the water/meth in every gear. Mid to low 11s sometimes. I know I need another tune. Why would I want to go lower then that by using pure meth? Ive been avoiding partial throttle and boost for the most part until I get one of these piggyback units.
09-27-2010, 09:27 PM
#33
Team Owner
I think I am burning oil. I remember you telling me a while back that the first few times you use redline it has the tendency to disappear but it should stop doing that after a few oil changes. Not the case for me. Like i said, Im not leaking anywhere. Ill pull the ngks that are in there now after a week or so and see if they have the same ash looking buildup on them.
Im positive the meth is working. Iats drop significantly when the pump light is on. Sometimes as much as 25-30* through a wot run. Plus Ive used about 1 gallon of water/meth in 10 days. The tank is almost half empty and I filled it up to the top when I first started spraying.
Im already running rich without the water/meth in every gear. Mid to low 11s sometimes. I know I need another tune. Why would I want to go lower then that by using pure meth? Ive been avoiding partial throttle and boost for the most part until I get one of these piggyback units.
Im positive the meth is working. Iats drop significantly when the pump light is on. Sometimes as much as 25-30* through a wot run. Plus Ive used about 1 gallon of water/meth in 10 days. The tank is almost half empty and I filled it up to the top when I first started spraying.
Im already running rich without the water/meth in every gear. Mid to low 11s sometimes. I know I need another tune. Why would I want to go lower then that by using pure meth? Ive been avoiding partial throttle and boost for the most part until I get one of these piggyback units.
So the meth is working, I wonder why the plugs don't look perfectly clean. Do you do a lot of easy driving? More specifically, when you pulled them out, had you been doing a lot of easy driving without the meth kicking in? Running a cold plug, they will look that way if the meth is not being triggered and you're driving easy.
The AF is fine but you're choking it with the amount of water required to get the good AF. How about reducing the amount of water slowly and see how you like it? You won't have to worry as much about choking the engine from spraying too much. Going a little rich with meth is not as bad for performance as going too rich with gasoline.
How are you doing now with the NGKs back in?
If I remember right you drive it pretty easy most of the time. How about doing at least one full throttle (or near full throttle) run a few minutes before shutting it down for the day and seeing if startup is a little better. This will at least eliminate the plugs as the source.
There's one other thing, the TL should have a very rich startup and then go very lean as the sensor fires off. It's also supposed to have intentional misfires for the first 10 seconds or so. I'm not familiar at all with the type of engine management the turbo TLs are running but I wonder if it makes the TL's unique cold start characteristics a little more exaggerated and it may be fouling plugs.
09-27-2010, 09:40 PM
#34
I may switch to 10 30 to see if that helps. Could I be running too hot sometimes that Im actually burning the oil that way? I doubt it but Im not sure
Yes I do a lot of easy driving. Some days I dont even see any boost. I drive about 40-50 miles a day and about 80% of that is on the highway just coasting. I dont sit in traffic either
The day I pulled the zex plugs out, I drove very easy that day and did not use the meth at all. I was still worried from the previous day when I had all the misfires at idle. I didnt want to push it.
Ill have to start reading more about pure meth. I know the snow system is capable of handling pure meth because they straight up told me it was. Im using the boost juice now (50/50) because it came with the kit when I bought it.
The ngks are running fine. No misfires at idle and idle is smooth. I have not been able to go wot the past 2 days because its been raining very hard and will continue to rain for the next 2 days.
Rodney was telling me earlier that champion racing makes an excellent spark plug that should work flawlessly with the turbo TL. Hes checking part numbers for me
Why would a full throttle run before shutdown help with startup? Will that clean the plugs off? Im not having problems with startups. The car cranks 3 or 4 times and always starts. VERY VERY rarely it stutters and the rpms stay around 300 for like 2 seconds but the it catches itself and idles fine.
I dont have any smoke from the exhaust as soon as I start. But after 2-3 minutes of idling, I get white smoke.
Yes I do a lot of easy driving. Some days I dont even see any boost. I drive about 40-50 miles a day and about 80% of that is on the highway just coasting. I dont sit in traffic either
The day I pulled the zex plugs out, I drove very easy that day and did not use the meth at all. I was still worried from the previous day when I had all the misfires at idle. I didnt want to push it.
Ill have to start reading more about pure meth. I know the snow system is capable of handling pure meth because they straight up told me it was. Im using the boost juice now (50/50) because it came with the kit when I bought it.
The ngks are running fine. No misfires at idle and idle is smooth. I have not been able to go wot the past 2 days because its been raining very hard and will continue to rain for the next 2 days.
Rodney was telling me earlier that champion racing makes an excellent spark plug that should work flawlessly with the turbo TL. Hes checking part numbers for me
Why would a full throttle run before shutdown help with startup? Will that clean the plugs off? Im not having problems with startups. The car cranks 3 or 4 times and always starts. VERY VERY rarely it stutters and the rpms stay around 300 for like 2 seconds but the it catches itself and idles fine.
I dont have any smoke from the exhaust as soon as I start. But after 2-3 minutes of idling, I get white smoke.
09-27-2010, 09:49 PM
#35
Team Owner
I may switch to 10 30 to see if that helps. Could I be running too hot sometimes that Im actually burning the oil that way? I doubt it but Im not sure
Yes I do a lot of easy driving. Some days I dont even see any boost. I drive about 40-50 miles a day and about 80% of that is on the highway just coasting. I dont sit in traffic either
The day I pulled the zex plugs out, I drove very easy that day and did not use the meth at all. I was still worried from the previous day when I had all the misfires at idle. I didnt want to push it.
Ill have to start reading more about pure meth. I know the snow system is capable of handling pure meth because they straight up told me it was. Im using the boost juice now (50/50) because it came with the kit when I bought it.
The ngks are running fine. No misfires at idle and idle is smooth. I have not been able to go wot the past 2 days because its been raining very hard and will continue to rain for the next 2 days.
Rodney was telling me earlier that champion racing makes an excellent spark plug that should work flawlessly with the turbo TL. Hes checking part numbers for me
Why would a full throttle run before shutdown help with startup? Will that clean the plugs off? Im not having problems with startups. The car cranks 3 or 4 times and always starts. VERY VERY rarely it stutters and the rpms stay around 300 for like 2 seconds but the it catches itself and idles fine.
I dont have any smoke from the exhaust as soon as I start. But after 2-3 minutes of idling, I get white smoke.
Yes I do a lot of easy driving. Some days I dont even see any boost. I drive about 40-50 miles a day and about 80% of that is on the highway just coasting. I dont sit in traffic either
The day I pulled the zex plugs out, I drove very easy that day and did not use the meth at all. I was still worried from the previous day when I had all the misfires at idle. I didnt want to push it.
Ill have to start reading more about pure meth. I know the snow system is capable of handling pure meth because they straight up told me it was. Im using the boost juice now (50/50) because it came with the kit when I bought it.
The ngks are running fine. No misfires at idle and idle is smooth. I have not been able to go wot the past 2 days because its been raining very hard and will continue to rain for the next 2 days.
Rodney was telling me earlier that champion racing makes an excellent spark plug that should work flawlessly with the turbo TL. Hes checking part numbers for me
Why would a full throttle run before shutdown help with startup? Will that clean the plugs off? Im not having problems with startups. The car cranks 3 or 4 times and always starts. VERY VERY rarely it stutters and the rpms stay around 300 for like 2 seconds but the it catches itself and idles fine.
I dont have any smoke from the exhaust as soon as I start. But after 2-3 minutes of idling, I get white smoke.
09-27-2010, 11:20 PM
#36
Safety Car
If the stinky fumes don’t get’em, the killer fog will. 
I don’t know if the oem O2 sensor can get a reading due to not having warmed-up yet. So, no data logging. I will maybe get a video of my wideband during start-up. The wideband has a heater that get the sensor up to operating temp before I fire up the engine. So, the wideband is able to capture the reading with no problem.
Me and IHC mention the pure methanol being able to fatten your mixture based on the first quote about you being lean at part throttle. I did know that you were that rich at wot.
09-27-2010, 11:39 PM
#38
Safety Car
IHC,
With turbo tuning, have you ever read plugs with a powerful magnifier, looking for splattered micro balls on the plugs?
I did a google last night looking for pics to show Bert. I was surprised that I was not able find anything on the internet talking about the molten balls on the plugs.
Is this something specific to just nitrous tuning?
With turbo tuning, have you ever read plugs with a powerful magnifier, looking for splattered micro balls on the plugs?
I did a google last night looking for pics to show Bert. I was surprised that I was not able find anything on the internet talking about the molten balls on the plugs.
Is this something specific to just nitrous tuning?
09-28-2010, 06:04 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
After checking out Libert misfire it's safe to say those zex plugs should not be used on boosted application in n/a. Aspirated form the plugs works awesome, they do provide they extra spark but the heat range of the plugs do not hold up under boosted application and will actually break and cause damage which our r&d facility has advise us when looking into Libert problem .... I will post a few links for recommended spark plugs ..
09-28-2010, 06:17 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
As for the oil I recommended livery to use 10w -30 which hi speed is also running I see Libert pointed out he was burning loosing a little oil pre turbo but only since he switched to red line oil ,we usually run 10-30 so let's see if this helps out as for oil I use mobil synthetic from superwalmart pretty good deal $22 for 4qt or 25-28$ for 5 qt bottle ..