The goose

Newbie here in search of a sanity check. Hope I landed in the right section.

My TL timing belt failed this week, bad situation all around. Mechanic replaced belt at 110k and I knew it needed to be done again but I pushed my luck and didn’t prioritize getting the car back in for another TB. Car has 235k miles I bought it 8 years ago at 60k

Mechanic says cam shaft is stuck and new engine is only option.

should I really consider a new engine at this stage of the game, or just let her go?

other than the TB car is in pretty good shape. Needs a new axle maybe but everything else brakes tires good shape.

if I have to let her go is there anything I can do other than take it to the junk yard?

The goose

Sorry here is my first post in beginners forum with a little additional info. Just read that I shouldn’t post tech questions there.

Good morning all,

Long time lurker here, first time poster. I wish it was under different circumstances, but my 05 TL with 6sp manual transmission timing belt failed this week and left me stranded.

I would appreciate thoughts in where to post to get some info about my options. None are good obviously but it was my daily driver and I commute 100 miles a day so I have to do something quick.

Mechanic first offered to replace timing belt to see what the damage was and if too far gone he’d credit me for the belt and charge me labor. He did that but said the cam shaft is stuck and not moving and said the only option is a new engine which he quoted $2500 parts and labor.

the car has 235k miles on it. Love it to death but if I have to dump it I will face the consequences for my stupidity


Quote

The goose

The video shows the cam shaft locked but I couldn’t upload it

jaydubz

Rarely hear of timing belt snapping after only 125k miles. Especially with the age still being very young. I almost wonder if it was a pulley issue, or some kind of debris, possibly even oil leakage onto the belt. Just seems odd, never hear of honda/acura OEM belts snapping that early or fast. To the main question, if your car is an automatic, you gotta remember the 5 speed auto's are glass, that could go anytime, you have had pretty good luck there. Personally at that mileage if it wasn't a 6 speed manual, I would probably part it out or see if someone wants to buy it and do the work themselves. 15 years old, your reaching 250k miles on suspension and transmission and all the other goodies. I don't know if 2500 is worth it, most of the time the advice is if the repair is worth more than a year payment on a car, scrap it. Especially since the repair is probably over 70% of its total value.

The goose

Thanks Jay. It is a 6 speed manual

I agree that while I was past the recommended change time for a second belt and pushing my luck I was still surprised it happened.

side note the car desperately needed an oil change at the time. I was getting the car in within a week and may have even done the TB at that time.

she was starting to leak some oil I’m pretty sure. Perhaps that did contribute to it.

t-rd

If a camshaft is stuck, that means the valves are lodged right up against the pistons, then you are looking at bad valves. You can opt to take the affected side of the head off and replace the valves or replace the engine. Replacing the engine obviously takes less time and he doesn't have to mess with taking the head off. The choice is yours.

The belt snapped most likely due to the hydraulic tensioner failing, not because of the belt's quality or oil leaking. There is nothing to leak oil there other than the crankshaft seal and the oil pump and the oil flows downwards and does not touch the belt that's hovering over the front face of the engine. I had the oil pump leaking and no oil ever dripped onto the belt. When the hydraulic tensioner fails, the belt loosens up on the left side and jumps teeth which means the engine jumps time. Once that happens, it's all game on what else can happen, it can shred the belt like in your case then the pistons hit the valves and lodge the camshaft. The tensioner also can fail if live in the colder snow belt where temperature variation is great, the hydraulic fluid would leak out and start to loose it's tensioning force. This is why Honda recommends every 105k miles on the timing belt + water pump + all timing components service.

I'm at 304000 miles on my AV6, more mileage than you, and I've never had a timing belt issue.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Find a cheap low mile 'plug n play' J35A6 out of the 05+ Odyssey (LX/EX only), drop it in an enjoy more low end torque and reliability for years to come.

This guy did it, review his thread for all the details:

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...spd-tl-964791/

The goose

this is awesome zeta. Looks like I am in for a good read!

I am definitely inclined to keep this car if we can put it back on the road at a reasonable budget.

Curious what the mechanic may think of this idea. Unfortunately not nearly inclined enough to take this on myself, and I don't have the time or resources to shop this project around too much. The fact that I need a daily driver ASAP and that this thing is sitting dead in the shop limits my options

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Try and salvage your six-speed. From what @teh CL claims, the added torque coupled with a manual is nothing but fun to drive.

Just for grin and giggles, do a 'little behind the scenes' due diligence on car-part.com, for your local area, to see how much the J35A6 will cost you at a salvage yard. Preferably from an 05+ Odyssey, as mentioned with no front end damage and it's got to be from a non VCM (Variable Cylinder Management) model. Then you will be that much more informed on availability and especially engine cost. It will also give you an idea of the 'markup' your mechanic may hit you for, should you go this route, for his effort / search for said J35A6. Labor will be the negotiation you will have to grapple with to keep costs down.

Good Luck!

The goose

Thanks Zeta. Literally doing that right now!

I can see the reaction of the mechanic now, like oh somebody spent some time over the weekend on google/ebay lol. In seriousness though he seems pretty fair. Maybe this diligence may knock down the price a little bit. But he may not also be aware of this swap so this could us more options

I'd hate to abandon this vehicle if I can keep it. We have a lot of memories

zeta

iTrader: (1)

That kind of 'psychological leverage' is a good thing to have on your side in a situation like this where you are 'pressed' to get your car up and running due to its literal daily driver status for you. He knows you are in a quandary. It's good that your 'read' on him '...seems pretty fair'. This situation will certainly prove that in short order.

The goose

I have found an abundance of that engine within a reasonable distance of the shop (within 15 miles).

Higher mileage ones 140K plus miles found a few for $800-$1,200. Just saw one with 40K miles for $1,600.

Can't wait to propose we explore these options and I expect he has regular folks he deals with nearby.

What's a fair cost of labor to do this job? Off the bat he quoted $2,500 for parts and labor. If we settled on a $1K engine for example that be $1,500 in labor or 15 hours give or take. Seems a little high but I have no basis for that presumption

The goose

OK maybe not, a quick search rendered that 15 hours, or greater than $1K may actually be fair and in some cases could be more

zeta

iTrader: (1)

The goose, I went through teh CL's thread for fine details and it appears the following needs to be swapped over from the J32A3 to the J35A6:

To retain the IRMC (#8) you need the J32A3 intake manifold. His Odyssey J35 intake manifold did not have an IRMC for some reason.
Acura J32A3:
https://www.acuraoemparts.com/auto-p...nifold-06-scat

Honda J35A6:
https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...ake-manifold-1

The #11 connecting pipe and #8 water passage on the link below. The Odyssey connecting pipe is missing the smaller tube, coming from the main pipe, you see on the parts diagram below. The differences on the water passage is the rear pipe connection is shorter on the J32 and longer of the J35.
Acura J32A3:
https://www.acuraoemparts.com/auto-p...ater-pump-scat

Honda J35A6:
https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...--water-pump-1

The EGR valves appear to have the same part #.

In light of these contingencies, it should be no problem for your mechanic to handle swapping them over. Although, it may factor into the overall labor charge, so keep that in mind.

The goose

Good looking out, Zeta.

Interestingly enough the J35A6 seems priced a bit more at a premium. The Acura J32A3 seems aplenty in the $550 - $900 range, with lower mileage options $1,200 and above. But I didn't see hardly anything in the local area for the Honda J35A6 with reasonable mileage below $800.

So maybe supply/demand thing at play? At any rate this will be really good info to chat with the mechanic in the morning.

The idea of the added torque intrigues me but I will be interested to see what he thinks and what may be available the soonest.

If I could have done this over I'd have said skip the labor to put on a timing belt to see the engine damage and just got for a new engine. As a layman swapping engines seems so catastrophic and I'd have never thought there'd be a favorable cost benefit ratio (not saying this will be). I could have probably saved a few bucks from the get go.

Thanks for all the good info!

zeta

iTrader: (1)

^
I understand.

At least you know you have an option other than the J32A3. The opportunity cost of one over the other, and the final decision, is going to be easier after talking with your mechanic.

The important thing is to get you back on the road ASAP. You will find the right path.

t-rd

Don't get so excited dropping in a J35 and use the ancient timing components on that J35 engine, then blow it up again. Whatever you do, get a new timing belt + timing components + water pump on + reseal the oil pump while the engine is still outside the car.

csmeance

IMO just buy some heads and have them swap the heads with a timing belt kit from AISIN. You are already this deep, why spend 15 hrs of labor on somthing when you can get the same result in shorter time. People sell heads online dirt cheap, esp when they go to the J35 heads or J37 heads from J30 or J32. Search on J-series head swap and you'll come across lots of info. You can buy used ones for a lot less than new and the new timing belt kit will take care of everything. How much did the mechanic charge you to see the damage? Honestly it should have been a tow fee and maybe 1 hour labor MAX.

Also remember you can run into a ton of issues after swapping the engine like cooling issues, electrical gremlins, rattles, etc.

Spend the money you save on preventative maintenance like getting your A/C system checked/repaired, brakes, motor mounts, trans mounts, etc.

facebook marketplace, craiglist, etc are great. Look at the 04-08 3G TL groups, J-series groups, etc and the black market section here and you'll find em quick. Find a recycling place like LKQ or someone parting their car out. Tons of them all over the USA esp on facebook groups.

If I were in your shoes, I'd spend the extra $ learning from the error and do J37 heads and intake manifold with the stock throttle body (adapter may be required) until you can get a maxbore J37 one. DO NOT GET THE J37's WITH DUAL VTEC (I think A2 and A4) or any J35 engine with VCM Heads. J37 heads give you a slightly lower compression ratio with larger valves and other benefits. Make sure to use the J37 head gasket!

Also be sure to do a valve adjustment after you install the heads and make sure everything is in spec before starting. Mechanic should know this. Also buy extra seals and shit the mechanic will need, use OEM for critical components such as new bolts, gaskets, etc or reputable stuff. Also bring your power steering pump home and rebuild it with a hammer, 24mm socket and $4 C-clip pliers and a $20 gates rubber kit from rock auto. Also I'd suggest a new PCV valve, check the oil pan and upper oil filter housing for leaks. Also new cam seals or any other seals like spark plug tube seals, etc. Delray acura (acuraoemparts.com) has been amazing for years and give us 5% off with coupon code "acurazine". If you have any questions, give them a call and PJ would be happy to help ya! Since I'm in FL shipping is the cheapest even though I pay tax and it comes out cheaper than other vendors. YOu can click the vendors button above and see other dealers that are closer that offer killer prices. My local Acura dealer charges 3-4x what acuraoemparts charges!

While you are also this far deep, get anything else done like starter, alternator, axles, etc.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

J35A6 all day.

Where are you located? I paid $200 CDN for my A6 with 130kish miles and haven't had an issue at all.

The goose

I appreciate everybody’s continued feedback on this.

After talking with the mechanic about the options above both engine swap and replacing heads he has all but rejected both. On the engine swap side it’s too risky to go with s junk yard engineer as there will be no warranty and he can’t vouch for the engine. A refurbished engine is something crazy like 6k.

In in terms of replacing the heads as suggested above there is no guarantee that pistons aren’t damaged so could be another risk.

I called amother shop shop that I regularly go to and have brown for a while. Only though really was that it’s an engine replacement and it’s gonna be way more than the car is worth.

so it’s looking like I am going to dump it. There may be somebody out there that could do this job but unfortunately I don’t know who that would be and I can’t wrench on cars myself.

Apparently I like running cars into the ground albeit this one prematurely. In 20 years each of my four cars has met a similar fate

thanks everybody. Located in dc/md

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Just curious/confused. Where did he say he was going to procure the replacement J32A3 'engine', he had in mind at first, when he suggested in your original post that a 'new engine is only option' for $2500 parts and labor?

The goose

That thought has crossed my mind. I’m not sure, it was a little bit of a reversal no doubt

The goose

I got the sense maybe not willing to put the shops reputation out there over a used engine that may crap out on me? Dunno

zeta

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking that, in running the J35A6 idea by him and since that specific engine was not original to the car in the first place, that that is what made him a 'fraidy cat'. Which is his prerogative, no harm no foul. However, he would of still needed to 'source' a used J32A3, had you opted for that, since the refurbished route is 'over the top' expensive. Strange.

Well at least you know that it's time to move on.

Is there another manual transmission car choice on the horizon for you?

The goose

Not sure really. Need something fast so I don’t have much time to look around. I have a pretty hellish commute so something that makes me happy.

ive only ever owned manuals and maybe that takes my mind of the madness on the road sometimes. I have always been steadfast on manuals but actually driving an automatic for a week has me thinking. Not many manual choices out there that I like except a TL. Not willing to go German

csmeance

He can remove the spark plugs and use a simple borosccope to check the pistons. IMO you can buy a kit for $20-30 and check yourself. IMO sounds like the mechanic doesn't want to deal with it and has other cars that'll net more $$$ for repairs. IMO get used heads and replace them with another mechanic.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

I get where the mechanic is coming from but any reputable wreckers would give a few months warranty on an engine..

Sucks that she may be officially toast but i guess you can't win them all. If you were local, I'd sell you my J35A6 6MT TL.