The Ultimate Cooling Mod
08-12-2009, 12:46 PM
#81
Safety Car
Thread Starter
When you said "The Thunderhill TL did it...", what did it do ? Did the Thunderhill TL have it's cowling removed ?
08-12-2009, 12:50 PM
#82
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I wonder what would happen if we lowered water temps by 5-10 degrees via the thermostat.....
Of course there would be many supplimental things that would have to go along with this such as fan turn on point which would make it pretty much not worth doing. There's always the chance the computer won't like it and throw a check engine light too.
Of course there would be many supplimental things that would have to go along with this such as fan turn on point which would make it pretty much not worth doing. There's always the chance the computer won't like it and throw a check engine light too.
My second idea was to make both oem fans stay on continuously (well, with key in the "on" position). I had even studied the wiring diagram to figure out how to do it. I was close to implementing it when I thought of removing the cowling. I was reluctant to make the fans run at 100% duty cycle - Could the wiring handle 100% duty cycle? Could the fans handle it? Worried about the strain on the electrical system with 100% duty cycle of both fans. (For other readers, please don't reply to these questions.. these are rhetorical questions).
The moment I thought of the cowling, I knew that was "the" answer. I instinctively knew (again, that empirical data) that the answer would involve keeping the underhood temps down. I didn't feel good about just having the coolant run cooler. Empirical data does not support this notion. In winter, our TL's run GREAT, but the coolant is at the same temp as summer (an assumption on my part).
08-12-2009, 12:52 PM
#83
Ryan Christopher
They had the hood cowled right above and after the Supercharger to create better airflow over the SC.
08-12-2009, 01:05 PM
#84
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Black_05_TL_6SP,
I think your computer has that pic cached (saved). Thus, you are not seeing the pic that everyone else is seeing. The pic is of a new silver corvette.
Here is what we see --->
I think your computer has that pic cached (saved). Thus, you are not seeing the pic that everyone else is seeing. The pic is of a new silver corvette.
Here is what we see --->
08-12-2009, 03:23 PM
#88
Team Owner
Very nice. Into the grill, through the radiator, over the supercharger and exit out the hood into the high velocity low pressure area. That looks like an efficient setup but it may not bring the air over the engine like Inaccurate's setup.
08-12-2009, 03:43 PM
#89
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Disclaimer - All of the above is based on my theory, no facts.
08-12-2009, 04:21 PM
#90
Ryan Christopher
They had 2 versions of the car for different years, pretty much the same.
08-12-2009, 06:28 PM
#93
I'm almost afraid to say this out loud because I'm well aware of the negatives associated with it.....
I wonder what would happen if we lowered water temps by 5-10 degrees via the thermostat.....
Of course there would be many supplimental things that would have to go along with this such as fan turn on point which would make it pretty much not worth doing. There's always the chance the computer won't like it and throw a check engine light too.
I wonder what would happen if we lowered water temps by 5-10 degrees via the thermostat.....
Of course there would be many supplimental things that would have to go along with this such as fan turn on point which would make it pretty much not worth doing. There's always the chance the computer won't like it and throw a check engine light too.
08-13-2009, 08:35 AM
#94
Safety Car
Thread Starter
UPDATE
I drove thru 10 miles of very heavy rain yesterday evening. On the freeway, all traffic was doing 40 mph with wipers on "high". This was a non-stop intense downpour for 10 miles.
The exposed filter did great. Once I got away from the rain and back onto dry roads, I paid close attention to the car's throttle response. I romped on the throttle in various positions to test for a wet filter. Perfect throttle response. I notice no difference from normal.
One thing that proved to be true was AEM's claim "DRYFLOW filter media ... resists water absorption." I looked at and touched the filter after getting home. It did not seem to be water soaked. Just very slightly damp on the outer surface.
There was no problems with the removed cowl. The engine compartment was completely dry. I did see a few drops of water sitting on top of the tape (red arrow in pic above). This means that the water, to some extent (?), could be blown/splattered into the exposed opening. Be sure to close-off this opening. I plan to make a custom-fitted fiberglass lid (painted flat black) and affix the lid with sealant over this opening. This is one of those compromises we discussed earlier. There is no way in hell that I will put the cowl back on. Any problems/compromises will be dealt with as required, but replacing the plastic cowl panel is "not an option" - RIP !
I drove thru 10 miles of very heavy rain yesterday evening. On the freeway, all traffic was doing 40 mph with wipers on "high". This was a non-stop intense downpour for 10 miles.
The exposed filter did great. Once I got away from the rain and back onto dry roads, I paid close attention to the car's throttle response. I romped on the throttle in various positions to test for a wet filter. Perfect throttle response. I notice no difference from normal.
One thing that proved to be true was AEM's claim "DRYFLOW filter media ... resists water absorption." I looked at and touched the filter after getting home. It did not seem to be water soaked. Just very slightly damp on the outer surface.
There was no problems with the removed cowl. The engine compartment was completely dry. I did see a few drops of water sitting on top of the tape (red arrow in pic above). This means that the water, to some extent (?), could be blown/splattered into the exposed opening. Be sure to close-off this opening. I plan to make a custom-fitted fiberglass lid (painted flat black) and affix the lid with sealant over this opening. This is one of those compromises we discussed earlier. There is no way in hell that I will put the cowl back on. Any problems/compromises will be dealt with as required, but replacing the plastic cowl panel is "not an option" - RIP !
08-13-2009, 09:46 AM
#95
Safety Car
Thread Starter
It just occurred to me last night. I may have been causing a communication problem.
Throughout this thread, I often mention how much cooler the intake manifold is with the cowl removed.
I do NOT mean to imply that this is my goal! My goal in *not* to get the IM to run cool. I only use the IM as an example to illustrate how much cooler the ENTIRE ENGINE COMPARTMENT is running.
As discussed in the thread "Please HELP !!...Car sluggish or Flies" (link), we don't know specifically what component in the engine compartment is the troublemaker. But, there is a troublemaker. When that troublemaker gets too warm, there is trouble (loss of power). Instead of trying to solve who is the troublemaker, I decided to just make the entire engine compartment stay cool. Then he (whoever is the troublemaker) will not cause trouble.
Throughout this thread, I often mention how much cooler the intake manifold is with the cowl removed.
I do NOT mean to imply that this is my goal! My goal in *not* to get the IM to run cool. I only use the IM as an example to illustrate how much cooler the ENTIRE ENGINE COMPARTMENT is running.
As discussed in the thread "Please HELP !!...Car sluggish or Flies" (link), we don't know specifically what component in the engine compartment is the troublemaker. But, there is a troublemaker. When that troublemaker gets too warm, there is trouble (loss of power). Instead of trying to solve who is the troublemaker, I decided to just make the entire engine compartment stay cool. Then he (whoever is the troublemaker) will not cause trouble.
08-13-2009, 10:38 AM
#96
So before you call them overpaid, think about that and STFU.
08-13-2009, 10:49 AM
#97
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Watch the personal comments folks - on both sides (yes, I know "he" started it). This thread is to serve a more important purpose. I am not a mod, but I know where I can find one.
08-13-2009, 10:56 AM
#98
Team Owner
Let me guess, you're not an engineer are you? See that computer you're typing on, the building you're in, the chair you're sitting in, the keyboard you're using, the mouse you're using? They're all designed by engineers.
So before you call them overpaid, think about that and STFU.
So before you call them overpaid, think about that and STFU.
Let's keep it classy.
08-13-2009, 11:05 AM
#99
I'm assuming you're an engineer. I work with them everyday and some quite honestly are overpaid and lack any sort of common sense. I'm sure you're good at what you do but it's sort of a sore spot with me because I have to make decisions and wait on an engineer to approve it and all that ends up happening is a pissing contest where I'm right 99% of the time.
Let's keep it classy.
Let's keep it classy.
Yes there are some engineers that are worthless and overpaid - I'm most likely one of them. But to classify EVERY engineer like that is unfair and a blanket generalization. Our entire infrastructure would not be here if it were not for engineers.
08-13-2009, 11:14 AM
#100
Team Owner
Yes I know. There are wide ranges of jobs that people can do, and wide-ranging performances within each job description. It just pisses me off when people call engineers worthless and overpaid, and 99% of the stuff we eat, use, sleep, drive, live in, sit on, walk on, etc. is designed by some sort of engineer.
Yes there are some engineers that are worthless and overpaid - I'm most likely one of them. But to classify EVERY engineer like that is unfair and a blanket generalization. Our entire infrastructure would not be here if it were not for engineers.
Yes there are some engineers that are worthless and overpaid - I'm most likely one of them. But to classify EVERY engineer like that is unfair and a blanket generalization. Our entire infrastructure would not be here if it were not for engineers.
There are the new guys that come in and know everything and won't listen to common sense or experience also.
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jauman (10-06-2013)
08-13-2009, 03:34 PM
#102
Three Wheelin'
I agree 
.... ive been waiting for 4 years to get rid of this problem.... so lets see what the final solution is going to be...
by the way big thanks to Inaccurate and others alike
.... ive been waiting for 4 years to get rid of this problem.... so lets see what the final solution is going to be...by the way big thanks to Inaccurate and others alike
08-14-2009, 01:53 AM
#106
Maybe I'm late getting in but what putting in levlour's on the hood. Texas HOT Cali even HOTTER, some of the CHP cars that are K-9 units have this mod done to them since they always run the A/C to keep the Dogs cool. Its that or the ones that don't prop the hood open when they show up at a sceen and are going to be there for a while. That way you don't have to worry about some one getting onder your hood and screwing around.
08-14-2009, 11:34 AM
#107
Burning Brakes
Now granted I don't drive a TL, but my G35, like most every other vehicle on the road experiences reduced performance in the warmer months. These late model cars have very finicky ECUs that are focused on motor and tranny longevity. All sorts of parameters (intake air temps, baro pressure, coolant temp, automatic transmission temp, oil temp, knock sensor(s), engine load and rpm, etc.) are monitored very closely. Thanks to the introduction of drive-by-wire throttle control, the ECU can take over throttle application whenever it deems appropiate. This is how traction control and stability control systems operate.
Through my own datalogging and drag racing experience, I've learned/observed the following with my past cars (modded 94 Z28, modded 96 Maxima, modded 03 G35) I've raced at the strip and monitored:
1) At a stop, naturally the engine/coolant temps rise. If you have an intake that is not pulling air directly from outside the engine bay, intake air temps skyrocket very quickly. It is not uncommon to see 40 to 60 increases over ambient. If you have a POP charger or CAI, you're is experiencing elevated intake air temps.
2) Once rolling at speeds over 30mph or so, the engine bay temps drop to within 5 to 10 degrees of ambient. This is with no modifications to increase cooling or air movement under the hood.
3) Regardless of what's done to aid in reducing engine heat soak, the engine is going to heat soak. Engine bays are cramped and full of very hot components. There are radient sources throughout the bay. You might be able to lower component temps by 5 to 10 degrees, but when it's heat soaked to over 120 degrees, it really just doesn't matter.
4) Metal intake pipes are a bad idea, no matter what you do to keep them cool. They will warm up. Pipe jackets or blankets shield from significant radient heat. Not hot surrounding air temps. The pipe will heat soak.
5) Density altitude. You have no control over this. Hot ambient temps, low baro pressure, and high humidity kill engine power regardless of how cool you keep a motor. A majority of the lost power in the summer is simply because the air density is sucking out 5% to 15% of your motor's available power. That's why it feel so lethargic.
6) Hot engine vs cold engine and hot lapping at the strip. I've done these comparisons with all my cars at the strip. The reality is hot vs cold engine and hot lapping doesn't really effect performance assuming you're not doing 3+ laps. The only thing that really seems to kill performance at the strip is density altitude.
IMO, you guys are really just wasting your time with these "cooling mods". Adding a cooler T-stat will only keep the engine temps marginally lower. Removing the cowl may help push hot air out of the engine bay, but from what I've seen on three cars, the hot air is pushed out quite nicely once rolling. Engine heat might be allowed to radiate out from cowl area while you're stopped, but it still going to be crazy hot under that hood on an 80 degree+ day. Nearly all the power loss you're experiencing in the summer is directly related to conditions out of your control. If you don't like it, get a turbo car. They are not remotely as sensitive to air density variations because they generate their own atmosphere. When the air is thin, boost naturally increases to make up the difference. This is why turbos are so ideal in higher altitudes.
Through my own datalogging and drag racing experience, I've learned/observed the following with my past cars (modded 94 Z28, modded 96 Maxima, modded 03 G35) I've raced at the strip and monitored:
1) At a stop, naturally the engine/coolant temps rise. If you have an intake that is not pulling air directly from outside the engine bay, intake air temps skyrocket very quickly. It is not uncommon to see 40 to 60 increases over ambient. If you have a POP charger or CAI, you're is experiencing elevated intake air temps.
2) Once rolling at speeds over 30mph or so, the engine bay temps drop to within 5 to 10 degrees of ambient. This is with no modifications to increase cooling or air movement under the hood.
3) Regardless of what's done to aid in reducing engine heat soak, the engine is going to heat soak. Engine bays are cramped and full of very hot components. There are radient sources throughout the bay. You might be able to lower component temps by 5 to 10 degrees, but when it's heat soaked to over 120 degrees, it really just doesn't matter.
4) Metal intake pipes are a bad idea, no matter what you do to keep them cool. They will warm up. Pipe jackets or blankets shield from significant radient heat. Not hot surrounding air temps. The pipe will heat soak.
5) Density altitude. You have no control over this. Hot ambient temps, low baro pressure, and high humidity kill engine power regardless of how cool you keep a motor. A majority of the lost power in the summer is simply because the air density is sucking out 5% to 15% of your motor's available power. That's why it feel so lethargic.
6) Hot engine vs cold engine and hot lapping at the strip. I've done these comparisons with all my cars at the strip. The reality is hot vs cold engine and hot lapping doesn't really effect performance assuming you're not doing 3+ laps. The only thing that really seems to kill performance at the strip is density altitude.
IMO, you guys are really just wasting your time with these "cooling mods". Adding a cooler T-stat will only keep the engine temps marginally lower. Removing the cowl may help push hot air out of the engine bay, but from what I've seen on three cars, the hot air is pushed out quite nicely once rolling. Engine heat might be allowed to radiate out from cowl area while you're stopped, but it still going to be crazy hot under that hood on an 80 degree+ day. Nearly all the power loss you're experiencing in the summer is directly related to conditions out of your control. If you don't like it, get a turbo car. They are not remotely as sensitive to air density variations because they generate their own atmosphere. When the air is thin, boost naturally increases to make up the difference. This is why turbos are so ideal in higher altitudes.
08-14-2009, 11:45 AM
#108
Team Owner
True in regards to altitude. But turbo cars seem to hate hot days worse than NA cars. You've got the same heatsoak and hotter charge temps but you're also got less cooling going on with the intercooler. This is why meth injection is so great. You get winter like performance in the middle of summer. I remember bracket racing with tons of GNs against the Mustangs. Everything was great in the day but we were losing to the Mustangs left and right as we hit night time because the turbo cars were picking up as much as half a second in the cooler temps and breaking out.
08-14-2009, 11:47 AM
#109
Team Owner
Dave- I think the real problem here is Honda needs to lower the compression or back off the aggressive timing in these cars. The TL falls off worse than normal cars in the heat because it's pulling so much timing. I drive the girlfriend's Murano in the same conditions and it has the normal varience between winter and summer but nowhere near what the TL experiences. Since Honda won't help, we have what you see here, individuals doing what they can to bandaid Honda's design.
08-14-2009, 12:30 PM
#110
Burning Brakes
Dave- I think the real problem here is Honda needs to lower the compression or back off the aggressive timing in these cars. The TL falls off worse than normal cars in the heat because it's pulling so much timing. I drive the girlfriend's Murano in the same conditions and it has the normal varience between winter and summer but nowhere near what the TL experiences. Since Honda won't help, we have what you see here, individuals doing what they can to bandaid Honda's design.
While I don't doubt Honda is pretty conservative with their tuning, especially since the CR is so high, much of issue can't be controlled. I really think some people need to get dataloggers to see what's really happening. Dataloggers are cheap ($130-150) and worth every penny. Atmospheric conditions, high engine oil temps, air temps, and tranny fluid temps are what is driving the reduced performance. Not the fact that the motor is hot. A hot motor is an efficent and powerful motor. The problem is it's hard to have both a hot motor and cold dense air. If you want dramatically improved performance in the summer, figure out a way to cool the air as it enters the intake tract.
08-14-2009, 03:06 PM
#113
Team Owner
Has anyone actually confirmed the amount of timing being pulled? The TL's compression ratio is an 11:1 which is pretty high. My G's in 10.3:1. In the warmer temps, I've datalogged some pretty significant reductions in timing with my G and many times you feel the motor changing the timing or throttle control. You can go WOT and feels laggy and about a second later it's as if you pressed the pedal down another 30%. It's almost like a turbo surge.
While I don't doubt Honda is pretty conservative with their tuning, especially since the CR is so high, much of issue can't be controlled. I really think some people need to get dataloggers to see what's really happening. Dataloggers are cheap ($130-150) and worth every penny. Atmospheric conditions, high engine oil temps, air temps, and tranny fluid temps are what is driving the reduced performance. Not the fact that the motor is hot. A hot motor is an efficent and powerful motor. The problem is it's hard to have both a hot motor and cold dense air. If you want dramatically improved performance in the summer, figure out a way to cool the air as it enters the intake tract.
While I don't doubt Honda is pretty conservative with their tuning, especially since the CR is so high, much of issue can't be controlled. I really think some people need to get dataloggers to see what's really happening. Dataloggers are cheap ($130-150) and worth every penny. Atmospheric conditions, high engine oil temps, air temps, and tranny fluid temps are what is driving the reduced performance. Not the fact that the motor is hot. A hot motor is an efficent and powerful motor. The problem is it's hard to have both a hot motor and cold dense air. If you want dramatically improved performance in the summer, figure out a way to cool the air as it enters the intake tract.
It pulls up to 18 degrees at part throttle, a little less at full throttle. Very light acceleration still shows a few degrees being pulling continuously. It goes completely away in the winter with the exception of a couple degrees here and there at wide open.
I have a trans cooler, home made cold air intake using factory (plastic) plumbing, and from what I've seen with other members, oil temps are quite low, rarely going above 200 degrees during normal driving. Water temps are surprisingly stable at 198 degrees. I haven't been able to get it to move more han 2 degrees.
All readings look fine. 02 voltage is a little on the lean side but not drastic and it's steady throughout the rpm range. Plugs have been replaced with one step colder. I've moved the IAT sensor to diferent places, both hotter and colder to see if I could trick the computer into either adding more fuel or reducing timing. I've done a water decarbonization. Checked the EGR for flow.
This thing is totally dependant on ambient temps. Up to about 95 degrees it's fine. Above 105 it literally takes 1/2 pedal or more just to keep up with traffic from a redlight all the while surging from the computer pulling timing and putting it back in. The problem goes away with race gas. I just ran a tank of 109 unleaded and it ran great.
08-14-2009, 03:17 PM
#114
Team Owner
08-14-2009, 05:01 PM
#116
Team Owner
That makes sense. Do you happen to have total timing at WOT? I'm curious what it's running.
Do these engines use a traditional crank sensor triggered off the harmonic balancer? Maybe I should have my CNC guy make me an offset key to pull back timing lol.
Yes, I know this would retard cam timing too, it's a joke.....sort of.
Do these engines use a traditional crank sensor triggered off the harmonic balancer? Maybe I should have my CNC guy make me an offset key to pull back timing lol.
Yes, I know this would retard cam timing too, it's a joke.....sort of.
08-14-2009, 05:22 PM
#117
Three Wheelin'
That makes sense. Do you happen to have total timing at WOT? I'm curious what it's running.
Do these engines use a traditional crank sensor triggered off the harmonic balancer? Maybe I should have my CNC guy make me an offset key to pull back timing lol.
Yes, I know this would retard cam timing too, it's a joke.....sort of.
Do these engines use a traditional crank sensor triggered off the harmonic balancer? Maybe I should have my CNC guy make me an offset key to pull back timing lol.
Yes, I know this would retard cam timing too, it's a joke.....sort of.
08-14-2009, 05:50 PM
#118
Your Friendly Canadian
Join Date: Dec 2007
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This thread has gone from casual discussion about engine bay cooling to talk only someon with a technical college degree could understand. Chock full of information nonetheless, learning a lot from this thread. Great job, guys 
