The Ultimate Cooling Mod
08-08-2009, 07:40 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
you guys need to stop calling the aftermarket induction system a "CAI" ......these things are no longer Cold Air intakes, and ill just focus on the TL....while all of you already know that the TL features a cold air induction system, and the aftermarket ones dont actually offer any colder than the stock system already does... but there's a difference.... and that's "enabling the motor to breath easier" ...thats where the gains are coming from...and not the colder air..
stock system is a roller coaster of tubes, tunnels and boxes (dont tell me the air gets rushed in on its own while moving at highway speeds. not to those advertised extents. so please get real), while the aftermarket tube is a simple shorter smoother , way less bends, which ends up providing a much easier path for the motor to suck the air through, which of course, releases some more power. at the same time, air is sucked in greater amounts at any given time.
for whoever throws down the aftermarket induction systems...
try this... get a 10 foot long 3/4" hose, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, and you can try running with it in front of you, if ya wanna take advantage of the air rushing through ur hose
, oh and dont use a filter either. then get a 10" hose, same size, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, this time you can stand still
and just come back and tell me about the difference.
that is "the silly CAI" which in real world, i call them, aftermarket intakes.. they should in fact be called "EAI" easy-air-intake, so it enlightens some ppl that always go by the book, and at the same time suffer from "limited sense of possibilities" while taking everything as it comes, never doubting, never questioning, never scratching your head.
and as far as the high paid engineers go...they're actually overpaid...and they stand behind one, and only one thing "PROFIT"
so whenever you think that so much engineering went into your "new product" and actual perfection was archieved.. you're as wrong as a dead bolt.
stock system is a roller coaster of tubes, tunnels and boxes (dont tell me the air gets rushed in on its own while moving at highway speeds. not to those advertised extents. so please get real), while the aftermarket tube is a simple shorter smoother , way less bends, which ends up providing a much easier path for the motor to suck the air through, which of course, releases some more power. at the same time, air is sucked in greater amounts at any given time.
for whoever throws down the aftermarket induction systems...
try this... get a 10 foot long 3/4" hose, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, and you can try running with it in front of you, if ya wanna take advantage of the air rushing through ur hose
, oh and dont use a filter either. then get a 10" hose, same size, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, this time you can stand still and just come back and tell me about the difference.
that is "the silly CAI" which in real world, i call them, aftermarket intakes.. they should in fact be called "EAI" easy-air-intake, so it enlightens some ppl that always go by the book, and at the same time suffer from "limited sense of possibilities" while taking everything as it comes, never doubting, never questioning, never scratching your head.
and as far as the high paid engineers go...they're actually overpaid...and they stand behind one, and only one thing "PROFIT"
so whenever you think that so much engineering went into your "new product" and actual perfection was archieved.. you're as wrong as a dead bolt.
08-08-2009, 08:35 PM
#44
Team Owner
you guys need to stop calling the aftermarket induction system a "CAI" ......these things are no longer Cold Air intakes, and ill just focus on the TL....while all of you already know that the TL features a cold air induction system, and the aftermarket ones dont actually offer any colder than the stock system already does... but there's a difference.... and that's "enabling the motor to breath easier" ...thats where the gains are coming from...and not the colder air..
stock system is a roller coaster of tubes, tunnels and boxes (dont tell me the air gets rushed in on its own while moving at highway speeds. not to those advertised extents. so please get real), while the aftermarket tube is a simple shorter smoother , way less bends, which ends up providing a much easier path for the motor to suck the air through, which of course, releases some more power. at the same time, air is sucked in greater amounts at any given time.
for whoever throws down the aftermarket induction systems...
try this... get a 10 foot long 3/4" hose, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, and you can try running with it in front of you, if ya wanna take advantage of the air rushing through ur hose, oh and dont use a filter either. then get a 10" hose, same size, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, this time you can stand still
and just come back and tell me about the difference.
that is "the silly CAI" which in real world, i call them, aftermarket intakes.. they should in fact be called "EAI" easy-air-intake, so it enlightens some ppl that always go by the book, and at the same time suffer from "limited sense of possibilities" while taking everything as it comes, never doubting, never questioning, never scratching your head.
and as far as the high paid engineers go...they're actually overpaid...and they stand behind one, and only one thing "PROFIT"
so whenever you think that so much engineering went into your "new product" and actual perfection was archieved.. you're as wrong as a dead bolt.
stock system is a roller coaster of tubes, tunnels and boxes (dont tell me the air gets rushed in on its own while moving at highway speeds. not to those advertised extents. so please get real), while the aftermarket tube is a simple shorter smoother , way less bends, which ends up providing a much easier path for the motor to suck the air through, which of course, releases some more power. at the same time, air is sucked in greater amounts at any given time.
for whoever throws down the aftermarket induction systems...
try this... get a 10 foot long 3/4" hose, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, and you can try running with it in front of you, if ya wanna take advantage of the air rushing through ur hose
, oh and dont use a filter either. then get a 10" hose, same size, and try breathing through it for 2 mins, this time you can stand still and just come back and tell me about the difference.
that is "the silly CAI" which in real world, i call them, aftermarket intakes.. they should in fact be called "EAI" easy-air-intake, so it enlightens some ppl that always go by the book, and at the same time suffer from "limited sense of possibilities" while taking everything as it comes, never doubting, never questioning, never scratching your head.
and as far as the high paid engineers go...they're actually overpaid...and they stand behind one, and only one thing "PROFIT"
so whenever you think that so much engineering went into your "new product" and actual perfection was archieved.. you're as wrong as a dead bolt.
The engineers have other things to consider such as water entry and noise.
The CAI no doubt flow better but in stock form the TL's engine doesn't flow enough air to take advantage of more flow. For it's hp, the TL injests about 300CFM. Suppose the factory air intake flows 500CFM and the aftermarket ones flow 700CFM. What's the advantage?
Of course once the mods start everything changes. In my world (TRs), certain mods are just to set it up for the real mods. Intake and exhaust are done to prep it for the upcoming turbo/cam/heads.
I know you know all of this already, just throwing it out there for others.
And I couldn't agree more that people need to question things more and try and understand why things work the way they do. I don't mind when someone disagrees or questions what I say or do, it's a good thing. Once you learn the basics, many times you can use good old common sense to figure other things out.
08-08-2009, 11:55 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
stock system is a roller coaster of tubes, tunnels and boxes (dont tell me the air gets rushed in on its own while moving at highway speeds. not to those advertised extents. so please get real), while the aftermarket tube is a simple shorter smoother , way less bends, which ends up providing a much easier path for the motor to suck the air through, which of course, releases some more power. at the same time, air is sucked in greater amounts at any given time.
1) To reduce noise
2) Improve the flow characteristics of the intake tract. Those boxes actually improve the induction pulse of the intake tract (research Hemholtz resonator)
Ya see, engineers are pretty damn smart as are those computers they use. In a market where every HP is sought after, do you really believe Honda (of all companies) would leave a good bit of power on the table when it would be so easy to improve the flow of the intake tract and add easy HP. Why would making the car perform worse make it profitable as you say? It would be MUCH cheaper for Honda just to install a filter on a stick and call it a day instead of going through millions of dollars designing and testing their OEM setups.
Like I said before, has anyone actually put one of these intakes on the flow bench to see if it poses as a restriction? Just because something is ugly, convulted, and appears restrictive doesn't necessarily mean it is. I'm all for improving performance, but trying to find it in a late model OEM intake is a waste of time of money in most any car these days.
Don't kid yourself into thinking AEM or the like has done any real R&D on those CAIs other than making it fit into the TL.
08-09-2009, 12:27 AM
#46
Three Wheelin'
agreed, IHC..... and this isnt directed towards you, by the way.
its just that, when someone tries to overthrow anything thats attempted by someone else, basing it on science data and Einstein formulas that they read on some fancy article, and for simple fact of lack of "real engineering", kinda gets my blood flowing....
stepping all over things such as IM thermoblocks, TB spacers (plastic, not Aluminum) that do make a difference, but since it wasn't part of their so called "perfected product" then it is not agreed with, and not acceptable, and thats the end of their reasons...
at the end of the day, every bit makes a difference...
comments such as,
power's made with cooler air, and not with cooler motor and hotter air... yes sure, we all agree... but whats also true is that, the hotter motor is actually making ur intake hot during heat soaking, which while in motion is taken care of, but when ur stop and go traffic completely reduces any airflow into the bay, that serves as a heat exhanger to the stored heat energy on the motor, waiting to erupt, which of course happens soon after u stop, but now the oven-like isolated engine bay wont let heat escape out of it, and simply trapping it inside, leads to tremendous amounts of heat transfered through the intake components, making ur 130 degree intake air about 180, ... so while one disagrees that having more air flow in the engine bay and more escape paths for the heat, is silly and poinless, which is accomplished by sacrificing a few other things...again, its the same person that thinks " well if it were true and proven, it would've been this way to begin with"
and its the same person, that's also afraid of, and prob would never even attempt to install a diff light bulb in his freaking car, because well..hey it aint factory....
its the guys that always criticize others for doing whatever they may be doing to their cars, for the simple reason that they're not. I will tell you not to do smth, if i had done it and experienced more bad than good, or whatever may have happened... but not only because "in my book" i dont see it as engineered.... so let ppl hack off their roofs if they want to... and always keep in mind, there's no gain without sacrifice.
so stop trying to shoot ppl down when they do smth and share their experiences...if u dont agree with it...dont do it, because whoever's sharing, isn't forcing anyone to do anything... science is just another form of language, which is often misinterpreted
heat soaking can be reduced by tremendous amounts, and it can be prevented from skyrocketing the temps on the intake components, that induce a much hotter air...which will take a while to cool down even after u start moving... (i experience this, stop and go traffic, IAT of 160+, after getting up to highway speeds, it sits there for a while,)
this isn't so much about trying to make more power in a hot day, its about trying to avoid power being robbed off the motor as much as possible. a simple example would be this...a hotter motor will have the fans stay on for longer, which robs power, and its only a fan!!!!! (ever see ur needle drop at idle when fan kicks in?) its just a goddamn electrical device ...i dont even wanna get into the rest of 100 things...such as, due to hotter intake temps, you get hotter combustion temps, resulting in hotter exhaust temps, and more heat being throwing into the bay from the cats, and hotter exhuast gasses bouncing back, making their way into the combustion chamber, bring some more heat in there and mix it with the fresh air, and the ECU has to do smth about it, so it will take away timing, and while all this is happening, the poor fans are on full blast trying to draw heat off the radiator, which by the way, blows towards the motor, BLOWING MORE HEAT INTO THE ENGINE BAY, which of course, it can't escape, so while we're at it, why dont we flip some burgers on top of the intake manifold (oh wait, why didnt the engineers think of kinda putting up a little grill on top of it) and blah blah blah blah blah.
hope ya enjoyed...and please keep me going
its just that, when someone tries to overthrow anything thats attempted by someone else, basing it on science data and Einstein formulas that they read on some fancy article, and for simple fact of lack of "real engineering", kinda gets my blood flowing....
stepping all over things such as IM thermoblocks, TB spacers (plastic, not Aluminum) that do make a difference, but since it wasn't part of their so called "perfected product" then it is not agreed with, and not acceptable, and thats the end of their reasons...
at the end of the day, every bit makes a difference...
comments such as,
power's made with cooler air, and not with cooler motor and hotter air... yes sure, we all agree... but whats also true is that, the hotter motor is actually making ur intake hot during heat soaking, which while in motion is taken care of, but when ur stop and go traffic completely reduces any airflow into the bay, that serves as a heat exhanger to the stored heat energy on the motor, waiting to erupt, which of course happens soon after u stop, but now the oven-like isolated engine bay wont let heat escape out of it, and simply trapping it inside, leads to tremendous amounts of heat transfered through the intake components, making ur 130 degree intake air about 180, ... so while one disagrees that having more air flow in the engine bay and more escape paths for the heat, is silly and poinless, which is accomplished by sacrificing a few other things...again, its the same person that thinks " well if it were true and proven, it would've been this way to begin with"
and its the same person, that's also afraid of, and prob would never even attempt to install a diff light bulb in his freaking car, because well..hey it aint factory....
its the guys that always criticize others for doing whatever they may be doing to their cars, for the simple reason that they're not. I will tell you not to do smth, if i had done it and experienced more bad than good, or whatever may have happened... but not only because "in my book" i dont see it as engineered.... so let ppl hack off their roofs if they want to... and always keep in mind, there's no gain without sacrifice.
so stop trying to shoot ppl down when they do smth and share their experiences...if u dont agree with it...dont do it, because whoever's sharing, isn't forcing anyone to do anything... science is just another form of language, which is often misinterpreted
heat soaking can be reduced by tremendous amounts, and it can be prevented from skyrocketing the temps on the intake components, that induce a much hotter air...which will take a while to cool down even after u start moving... (i experience this, stop and go traffic, IAT of 160+, after getting up to highway speeds, it sits there for a while,)
this isn't so much about trying to make more power in a hot day, its about trying to avoid power being robbed off the motor as much as possible. a simple example would be this...a hotter motor will have the fans stay on for longer, which robs power, and its only a fan!!!!! (ever see ur needle drop at idle when fan kicks in?) its just a goddamn electrical device ...i dont even wanna get into the rest of 100 things...such as, due to hotter intake temps, you get hotter combustion temps, resulting in hotter exhaust temps, and more heat being throwing into the bay from the cats, and hotter exhuast gasses bouncing back, making their way into the combustion chamber, bring some more heat in there and mix it with the fresh air, and the ECU has to do smth about it, so it will take away timing, and while all this is happening, the poor fans are on full blast trying to draw heat off the radiator, which by the way, blows towards the motor, BLOWING MORE HEAT INTO THE ENGINE BAY, which of course, it can't escape, so while we're at it, why dont we flip some burgers on top of the intake manifold (oh wait, why didnt the engineers think of kinda putting up a little grill on top of it) and blah blah blah blah blah.
hope ya enjoyed...and please keep me going
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jauman (10-06-2013)
08-09-2009, 01:15 AM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Most every factory intake setup become pressurized at higher speeds (60mph+). Lots of motorcycles use the same tech. It's not a farce either. Do you really believe AMG or BMW's M group would use these setups? While the added power isn't extreme (maybe 2 to 3hp), the real advantage is in throttle response and that surge of power on each successive shift. As for those boxes or resonators you speak of serve two functions:
1) To reduce noise
2) Improve the flow characteristics of the intake tract. Those boxes actually improve the induction pulse of the intake tract (research Hemholtz resonator)
Ya see, engineers are pretty damn smart as are those computers they use. In a market where every HP is sought after, do you really believe Honda (of all companies) would leave a good bit of power on the table when it would be so easy to improve the flow of the intake tract and add easy HP. Why would making the car perform worse make it profitable as you say? It would be MUCH cheaper for Honda just to install a filter on a stick and call it a day instead of going through millions of dollars designing and testing their OEM setups.
Like I said before, has anyone actually put one of these intakes on the flow bench to see if it poses as a restriction? Just because something is ugly, convulted, and appears restrictive doesn't necessarily mean it is. I'm all for improving performance, but trying to find it in a late model OEM intake is a waste of time of money in most any car these days.
Don't kid yourself into thinking AEM or the like has done any real R&D on those CAIs other than making it fit into the TL.
1) To reduce noise
2) Improve the flow characteristics of the intake tract. Those boxes actually improve the induction pulse of the intake tract (research Hemholtz resonator)
Ya see, engineers are pretty damn smart as are those computers they use. In a market where every HP is sought after, do you really believe Honda (of all companies) would leave a good bit of power on the table when it would be so easy to improve the flow of the intake tract and add easy HP. Why would making the car perform worse make it profitable as you say? It would be MUCH cheaper for Honda just to install a filter on a stick and call it a day instead of going through millions of dollars designing and testing their OEM setups.
Like I said before, has anyone actually put one of these intakes on the flow bench to see if it poses as a restriction? Just because something is ugly, convulted, and appears restrictive doesn't necessarily mean it is. I'm all for improving performance, but trying to find it in a late model OEM intake is a waste of time of money in most any car these days.
Don't kid yourself into thinking AEM or the like has done any real R&D on those CAIs other than making it fit into the TL.
its true a lot of cars have superb induction systems and any changes not only wont make a difference in gain...sometimes you lose... the S2000 for example...tuned to the T, with nothing left...most aftermarket intake systems caused it to lose power. but this is a high performance car, and so are most BMWs, and AMGs, so it is expected that they be tuned to almost max... BUT NOT YOUR TL!!!!
yes i do believe honda would leave a great amount of power left on the table for improvement, at least with this kinda line up of cars... and you know why? so they dont have to start redesigning all over again to make more power. how long has the 3.2 been out for? more than i care to remember, and whats been happening? simple tweaks, each time they needed the attention, to sell their "NEW" cars,
ya see, making the car perform worse, helps them sell their new cars, without having to build a motor all over again.
its not as simple as throwing a filter on a stick and calling it a day...they gotta worry about bitching and moaning of some ppl about the noise...ya see??? so while they know that ppl who will be buying the S2000, will be real car enthusiasts, and those kinda ppl, dont bitch and moan about intake noise, exhaust noise, or high performance tire noise, they can tune it to the max.
but not YOUR TL... this car is a money making car, so take it from me...its been detuned like you wouldn't believe... leaving room for the next one, without major redesigns...
3.2 of the NSX, 290 hp (yes i know its a DOHC, but it aint reason enough) how long ago was that made? why couldn't the TL have around that kinda power, not even back then, but years later? so u still think they leave no room for improvements? the new 3.7 in the 4g TL...305 hp? g37s..340 hp, same size motor... did honda leave room for improvements?
here's a short example... rsx type s... u know what their 1/4 mile time is? intake/exhaust/hondata they become a 13 sec car... so how well was it really tuned by honda?
honda had only one max tuned motor... 2.0L found in the s2000... that my friend is 120 hp per litter.... the only way to make additional power (sufficient, not 1 or 2 hp) was BOOST... of course building the motor, such as increase in compression and blah blah blah would've made more power... but im speaking of external bolt ons
honda is the most conservative car manufacturer, hands down!
08-09-2009, 10:59 AM
#49
Burning Brakes
Uhhh, I think that title goes to GM's LS series V8s 
The excessively high intake temps are related to your aftermarket intakes, not the OEM setup. The metal intake pipes, even with those radient blankets you guys are using aren't helping. How do I know all this? I've run just about every type intake and datalogged them all. From what I've seen on a 80 degree day at speeds below 30mph or so, especially at a stop, the aftermarket intakes typically see 40 to 50 degrees over ambient where as the OEM intake will see about 10 to 15 degrees over ambient. At a 30mph+ roll, the engine bay will clear out the heat and OEM and aftermarket intake temps are within 5 degrees of ambient. As for blankets, they don't work real well. I've seen no measurable changes in intake air temps. Those metal pipes heat up quickly, regardless of shielding.
So at speed, there's really no difference between an OEM intake and aftermarket intake. However, at a stop or slow roll, there's a huge difference. The big deal to me is when racing at the drag strip. No matter what sort cooling you do, that hot air isn't going to clear out until you get moving for about 2 to 3 seconds. In drag racing, that's an eternity. If the ECU is seeing 130+ intake temps, it's doing to kill timing and richen the A/F to keep the combustion chamber cool. With the OEM setup, the ECU isn't going to dumb down the power remotely as much. So with an aftermarket intake, regardless of cooling mod, your TL is going to be leaving the line with about 20 to 30whp less than the OEM intake. That's pretty significant in my book and it will kill your 300' and 1/4 mile time.
If you want to keep heat soak at a minimum, the only way I've found to deal with it is ice in the intake manifold before racing and that gets pretty messy and not something you're going to do on a daily basis
comments such as,
power's made with cooler air, and not with cooler motor and hotter air... yes sure, we all agree... but whats also true is that, the hotter motor is actually making ur intake hot during heat soaking, which while in motion is taken care of, but when ur stop and go traffic completely reduces any airflow into the bay, that serves as a heat exhanger to the stored heat energy on the motor, waiting to erupt, which of course happens soon after u stop, but now the oven-like isolated engine bay wont let heat escape out of it, and simply trapping it inside, leads to tremendous amounts of heat transfered through the intake components, making ur 130 degree intake air about 180, ... so while one disagrees that having more air flow in the engine bay and more escape paths for the heat, is silly and poinless, which is accomplished by sacrificing a few other things...again, its the same person that thinks " well if it were true and proven, it would've been this way to begin with"
and its the same person, that's also afraid of, and prob would never even attempt to install a diff light bulb in his freaking car, because well..hey it aint factory....
power's made with cooler air, and not with cooler motor and hotter air... yes sure, we all agree... but whats also true is that, the hotter motor is actually making ur intake hot during heat soaking, which while in motion is taken care of, but when ur stop and go traffic completely reduces any airflow into the bay, that serves as a heat exhanger to the stored heat energy on the motor, waiting to erupt, which of course happens soon after u stop, but now the oven-like isolated engine bay wont let heat escape out of it, and simply trapping it inside, leads to tremendous amounts of heat transfered through the intake components, making ur 130 degree intake air about 180, ... so while one disagrees that having more air flow in the engine bay and more escape paths for the heat, is silly and poinless, which is accomplished by sacrificing a few other things...again, its the same person that thinks " well if it were true and proven, it would've been this way to begin with"
and its the same person, that's also afraid of, and prob would never even attempt to install a diff light bulb in his freaking car, because well..hey it aint factory....
The excessively high intake temps are related to your aftermarket intakes, not the OEM setup. The metal intake pipes, even with those radient blankets you guys are using aren't helping. How do I know all this? I've run just about every type intake and datalogged them all. From what I've seen on a 80 degree day at speeds below 30mph or so, especially at a stop, the aftermarket intakes typically see 40 to 50 degrees over ambient where as the OEM intake will see about 10 to 15 degrees over ambient. At a 30mph+ roll, the engine bay will clear out the heat and OEM and aftermarket intake temps are within 5 degrees of ambient. As for blankets, they don't work real well. I've seen no measurable changes in intake air temps. Those metal pipes heat up quickly, regardless of shielding.
So at speed, there's really no difference between an OEM intake and aftermarket intake. However, at a stop or slow roll, there's a huge difference. The big deal to me is when racing at the drag strip. No matter what sort cooling you do, that hot air isn't going to clear out until you get moving for about 2 to 3 seconds. In drag racing, that's an eternity. If the ECU is seeing 130+ intake temps, it's doing to kill timing and richen the A/F to keep the combustion chamber cool. With the OEM setup, the ECU isn't going to dumb down the power remotely as much. So with an aftermarket intake, regardless of cooling mod, your TL is going to be leaving the line with about 20 to 30whp less than the OEM intake. That's pretty significant in my book and it will kill your 300' and 1/4 mile time.
If you want to keep heat soak at a minimum, the only way I've found to deal with it is ice in the intake manifold before racing and that gets pretty messy and not something you're going to do on a daily basis
08-09-2009, 12:01 PM
#50
Team Owner
It would be neat to see someone do a dyno with the hood down and stock intake vs aftermarket with just enough fan to keep the coolant temps normal.
08-09-2009, 07:31 PM
#52
Three Wheelin'
Uhhh, I think that title goes to GM's LS series V8s
The excessively high intake temps are related to your aftermarket intakes, not the OEM setup. The metal intake pipes, even with those radient blankets you guys are using aren't helping. How do I know all this? I've run just about every type intake and datalogged them all. From what I've seen on a 80 degree day at speeds below 30mph or so, especially at a stop, the aftermarket intakes typically see 40 to 50 degrees over ambient where as the OEM intake will see about 10 to 15 degrees over ambient. At a 30mph+ roll, the engine bay will clear out the heat and OEM and aftermarket intake temps are within 5 degrees of ambient. As for blankets, they don't work real well. I've seen no measurable changes in intake air temps. Those metal pipes heat up quickly, regardless of shielding.
So at speed, there's really no difference between an OEM intake and aftermarket intake. However, at a stop or slow roll, there's a huge difference. The big deal to me is when racing at the drag strip. No matter what sort cooling you do, that hot air isn't going to clear out until you get moving for about 2 to 3 seconds. In drag racing, that's an eternity. If the ECU is seeing 130+ intake temps, it's doing to kill timing and richen the A/F to keep the combustion chamber cool. With the OEM setup, the ECU isn't going to dumb down the power remotely as much. So with an aftermarket intake, regardless of cooling mod, your TL is going to be leaving the line with about 20 to 30whp less than the OEM intake. That's pretty significant in my book and it will kill your 300' and 1/4 mile time.
If you want to keep heat soak at a minimum, the only way I've found to deal with it is ice in the intake manifold before racing and that gets pretty messy and not something you're going to do on a daily basis
The excessively high intake temps are related to your aftermarket intakes, not the OEM setup. The metal intake pipes, even with those radient blankets you guys are using aren't helping. How do I know all this? I've run just about every type intake and datalogged them all. From what I've seen on a 80 degree day at speeds below 30mph or so, especially at a stop, the aftermarket intakes typically see 40 to 50 degrees over ambient where as the OEM intake will see about 10 to 15 degrees over ambient. At a 30mph+ roll, the engine bay will clear out the heat and OEM and aftermarket intake temps are within 5 degrees of ambient. As for blankets, they don't work real well. I've seen no measurable changes in intake air temps. Those metal pipes heat up quickly, regardless of shielding.
So at speed, there's really no difference between an OEM intake and aftermarket intake. However, at a stop or slow roll, there's a huge difference. The big deal to me is when racing at the drag strip. No matter what sort cooling you do, that hot air isn't going to clear out until you get moving for about 2 to 3 seconds. In drag racing, that's an eternity. If the ECU is seeing 130+ intake temps, it's doing to kill timing and richen the A/F to keep the combustion chamber cool. With the OEM setup, the ECU isn't going to dumb down the power remotely as much. So with an aftermarket intake, regardless of cooling mod, your TL is going to be leaving the line with about 20 to 30whp less than the OEM intake. That's pretty significant in my book and it will kill your 300' and 1/4 mile time.
If you want to keep heat soak at a minimum, the only way I've found to deal with it is ice in the intake manifold before racing and that gets pretty messy and not something you're going to do on a daily basis
here's what i did last night.... outta the blue, i decided to cut out my stock grille, which i did, and made a mesh grill...(took me about 1.5 hrs) i also cut out half of the back plastic on the lower grille , on the drivers side, creating a path for the air, straight for the intake filter...
got up driving today... usually, it doesnt take too long of a local NYC drive to get my IAT at 150 degrees.... but for some strange reason (rolling eyes) temps were staying at 120...and i think i should mention the fact that i do have a SC, which doesnt help in keeping IATs low (not while in boost, just easy driving) the air simply traveling through gets hot, bcs the SC gets up to engine bay temps...
after a long while of local driving...i stopped the car, and let it sit, idling...i wanted the intake temp to get hotter, i beat on it few times....boost without methanol, so it gets hot...after reaching temps of 165, i hopped on the highway, cruising at around 50 mph...minimal throttle, so imagine how much air was actually getting in.... usually, after starting to cruise with those temps, they stay that way, maybe drop 5 degrees, after a while...but they pretty much stay right around... but today was a bit diff...started crusing, and in about 5 mins, i saw drops of 25-35 degrees...it came down to 130 with minimal throttle opening.
im puzzled....any clues?
08-09-2009, 09:00 PM
#54
Team Owner
08-09-2009, 09:56 PM
#55
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Opel – Thank you for trying parts of the Ultimate Cooling Mod, and thank you for sharing the results.
I made the quote below in tribute to a wonderful man, Billy Mays.
This sound of silence was eerie the first few times that I experienced it. I am accustomed to hearing the fans cycling on/off as I park my car, even in the mornings. The first morning that I drove my car with the mod, I was slightly scared by the silence because I knew something was not normal (oh hell, what's wrong now?). A second later, a smile appeared on my face as I realized what was happening.
As a point of clarification, the fans will come on eventfully after you lose the ram air (car in motion forcing air thru the grill). But, it takes it about a minute or two minutes as opposed to immediately without the mod.
I made the quote below in tribute to a wonderful man, Billy Mays.
Hello, Billy Mays here for the Ultimate Cooling Mod.
Did you ever wish that your underhood temps were so low that the cooling fans won’t turn on even when it’s 100 degrees outside ? With the Ultimate Cooling Mod, you will pull into your parking spot on a 100 degree day and hear the eerie sound of silence… of your cooling fans not running. And that my friends is the power of the Ultimate Cooling Mod !
Did you ever wish that your underhood temps were so low that the cooling fans won’t turn on even when it’s 100 degrees outside ? With the Ultimate Cooling Mod, you will pull into your parking spot on a 100 degree day and hear the eerie sound of silence… of your cooling fans not running. And that my friends is the power of the Ultimate Cooling Mod !
As a point of clarification, the fans will come on eventfully after you lose the ram air (car in motion forcing air thru the grill). But, it takes it about a minute or two minutes as opposed to immediately without the mod.
08-09-2009, 10:28 PM
#57
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Everyone,
I have looked at the plastic cowl. We should be able to do something to get airflow without losing the entire cowl.
Because I don't intend to replace mine, I will donate my plastic cowl to the Dremel Gods for the cause. In the upcoming days, I hope to dremel my plastic cowl and post pics showing some possibilities.
I have looked at the plastic cowl. We should be able to do something to get airflow without losing the entire cowl.
Because I don't intend to replace mine, I will donate my plastic cowl to the Dremel Gods for the cause. In the upcoming days, I hope to dremel my plastic cowl and post pics showing some possibilities.
08-10-2009, 09:25 AM
#58
Everyone,
I have looked at the plastic cowl. We should be able to do something to get airflow without losing the entire cowl.
Because I don't intend to replace mine, I will donate my plastic cowl to the Dremel Gods for the cause. In the upcoming days, I hope to dremel my plastic cowl and post pics showing some possibilities.
I have looked at the plastic cowl. We should be able to do something to get airflow without losing the entire cowl.
Because I don't intend to replace mine, I will donate my plastic cowl to the Dremel Gods for the cause. In the upcoming days, I hope to dremel my plastic cowl and post pics showing some possibilities.
08-10-2009, 12:15 PM
#59
Intermediate
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I also have the AEM cold air intake and by cutting out that portion of the bumper on the left front sure does give your Air Filter the chance to breathe colder air... if it rains your fooked! I live in Canada so good luck me doing that!
08-10-2009, 01:00 PM
#60
Rev High; Drive Happy
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I cut it do to a custom fog mod... but then I got lazy and left it as is.
I too live in Canada.
So far no issues.
In fact... my splatter shield rain guard thing [the wheel well thinger] has been shredded because I forgot to bolt it back to the bumper.
The filter occasionally gets wet when it rains hard... but the engine is fine. No issues.
08-11-2009, 02:04 PM
#63
2007 A-Spec Type S
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I'll start you on another project. How about side grilles? On my old forum, others were cutting holes in their fenders and getting these inserts. They are M3 look-a-likes with a STi logo and some where running vent tubes...so cool air enters.
08-11-2009, 02:18 PM
#64
Team Owner
Buick did this on the GNX versions of the GN. They worked pretty well at lowering engine bay temps and letting out the high pressure air under the hood. On the side, there's no worry about high pressure areas and such.
08-11-2009, 03:08 PM
#66
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Here is another data point.
My intake manifold is cooler immediately after parking than after the car has been shutdown for 3-1/2 hours.
After I parked my car in the garage yesterday evening, I felt the intake manifold.
Later last night, 3-1/2 hours after parking my car, I was under the hood playing around with the plastic cowling to see how it could be cut to allow airflow with the cowling in place.
Just for grins, I thought to feel the intake manifold. The intake manifold was much warmer than when I had checked it 3-1/2 hours earlier.
BTW - I gauge the temp according to the duration that I am able to place my hand on it without feeling too much pain. Nothing scientific, just trying to detect gross changes.
My intake manifold is cooler immediately after parking than after the car has been shutdown for 3-1/2 hours.
After I parked my car in the garage yesterday evening, I felt the intake manifold.
Later last night, 3-1/2 hours after parking my car, I was under the hood playing around with the plastic cowling to see how it could be cut to allow airflow with the cowling in place.
Just for grins, I thought to feel the intake manifold. The intake manifold was much warmer than when I had checked it 3-1/2 hours earlier.
BTW - I gauge the temp according to the duration that I am able to place my hand on it without feeling too much pain. Nothing scientific, just trying to detect gross changes.
08-11-2009, 06:09 PM
#68
Team Owner
This is one time I would have to disagree.
When you look at how the factory chooses to evacuate underhood heat, it's usually out of the side openings. Removing the plastic at the cowl has many more potential problems.
There's the potential high pressure area.
Any exhaust leak or smell from the engine being draw into the HVAC system.
Noise with the non baffled area.
Windshield edge protection.
Fire suppression.
The side vents are in a more neutral area of airflow and don't offer any of the other potential disadvantages.
Once you hit a certain volume of air through the engine bay, more volume won't help. It can be argued that you will get more air through a given opening size with the vents in the side vs at the cowl.
When you look at how the factory chooses to evacuate underhood heat, it's usually out of the side openings. Removing the plastic at the cowl has many more potential problems.
There's the potential high pressure area.
Any exhaust leak or smell from the engine being draw into the HVAC system.
Noise with the non baffled area.
Windshield edge protection.
Fire suppression.
The side vents are in a more neutral area of airflow and don't offer any of the other potential disadvantages.
Once you hit a certain volume of air through the engine bay, more volume won't help. It can be argued that you will get more air through a given opening size with the vents in the side vs at the cowl.
08-11-2009, 10:13 PM
#70
Safety Car
Thread Starter
This is one time I would have to disagree.
When you look at how the factory chooses to evacuate underhood heat, it's usually out of the side openings. Removing the plastic at the cowl has many more potential problems.
There's the potential high pressure area.
Any exhaust leak or smell from the engine being draw into the HVAC system.
Noise with the non baffled area.
Windshield edge protection.
Fire suppression.
The side vents are in a more neutral area of airflow and don't offer any of the other potential disadvantages.
Once you hit a certain volume of air through the engine bay, more volume won't help. It can be argued that you will get more air through a given opening size with the vents in the side vs at the cowl.
When you look at how the factory chooses to evacuate underhood heat, it's usually out of the side openings. Removing the plastic at the cowl has many more potential problems.
There's the potential high pressure area.
Any exhaust leak or smell from the engine being draw into the HVAC system.
Noise with the non baffled area.
Windshield edge protection.
Fire suppression.
The side vents are in a more neutral area of airflow and don't offer any of the other potential disadvantages.
Once you hit a certain volume of air through the engine bay, more volume won't help. It can be argued that you will get more air through a given opening size with the vents in the side vs at the cowl.
For the phrase "There's the potential high pressure area.", I have no comment. As per my opening post, I will not discuss "pressure". Others can if they wish. But if it is directed at me, it will fall on deaf ears.
As per the others points, I agree in a concession fashion. This mod is *not* for the faint-of-heart. I'm not. Neither is the TL Diet for the faint-of-heart. It is for the hardcore person that is willing to make compromises. And, I will leave the term "compromises" undefined on purpose.
Except for the "pressure" comment, which I will not address, IHC's comments are accurate. I do not dispute the points raised.
"I Hate Cars", Thanks for contributing to the discussion ! You are a valued member that we all appreciate (pat on the back) ! Thanks for taking your time to add meaning substance to Acurazine.
Although, I was wishing that you were going to try this mod because of the issue you was having with your TL (from your 109 octane thread).
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08-11-2009, 10:32 PM
#71
Team Owner
THIS REPLY IS NOT DIRECTED AT IHC. IHC has presented a good argument. My reply is meant to address the argument presented, and in no way are my comments addressed directly at IHC.
For the phrase "There's the potential high pressure area.", I have no comment. As per my opening post, I will not discuss "pressure". Others can if they wish. But if it is directed at me, it will fall on deaf ears.
As per the others points, I agree in a concession fashion. This mod is *not* for the faint-of-heart. I'm not. Neither is the TL Diet for the faint-of-heart. It is for the hardcore person that is willing to make compromises. And, I will leave the term "compromises" undefined on purpose.
Except for the "pressure" comment, which I will not address, IHC's comments are accurate. I do not dispute the points raised.
"I Hate Cars", Thanks for contributing to the discussion ! You are a valued member that we all appreciate (pat on the back) ! Thanks for taking your time to add meaning substance to Acurazine.
Although, I was wishing that you were going to try this mod because of the issue you was having with your TL (from your 109 octane thread).
For the phrase "There's the potential high pressure area.", I have no comment. As per my opening post, I will not discuss "pressure". Others can if they wish. But if it is directed at me, it will fall on deaf ears.
As per the others points, I agree in a concession fashion. This mod is *not* for the faint-of-heart. I'm not. Neither is the TL Diet for the faint-of-heart. It is for the hardcore person that is willing to make compromises. And, I will leave the term "compromises" undefined on purpose.
Except for the "pressure" comment, which I will not address, IHC's comments are accurate. I do not dispute the points raised.
"I Hate Cars", Thanks for contributing to the discussion ! You are a valued member that we all appreciate (pat on the back) ! Thanks for taking your time to add meaning substance to Acurazine.
Although, I was wishing that you were going to try this mod because of the issue you was having with your TL (from your 109 octane thread).
Don't count me out, I may end up doing it. The high test ran out yesterday and with 91 in it, I'm back to pedal to the floor just to keep from getting run over. This isn't a mod I would normally do but I'm a desperate man.
If I do so, I may end up putting something such as paper graffiti just under the hood and see if I can establish a flow path.
08-12-2009, 07:18 AM
#72
boost owns
I don't think this has been discussed in this thread, so apologies if I'm re-treading an argument...
Guys on the 8thcivic forums have a few threads about hood spacers (designed to achieve a similar effect to this mod), and a poster commented that a modification like this takes away from several aspects of Honda's original engineering -- specifically, time to reach standard operating temperature. With improved cooling, it will take longer for the motor to reach standard operating temperature, increasing wear on the engine. If you take the car on several short trips, the car will cool down more quickly between runs, and then again, take longer to get up to temperature.
Is there any merit to this? I won't pretend to posess any engineering prowess, but the above has some logic to it. Then again, anything can be seen as logical if you think about it long enough...
Guys on the 8thcivic forums have a few threads about hood spacers (designed to achieve a similar effect to this mod), and a poster commented that a modification like this takes away from several aspects of Honda's original engineering -- specifically, time to reach standard operating temperature. With improved cooling, it will take longer for the motor to reach standard operating temperature, increasing wear on the engine. If you take the car on several short trips, the car will cool down more quickly between runs, and then again, take longer to get up to temperature.
Is there any merit to this? I won't pretend to posess any engineering prowess, but the above has some logic to it. Then again, anything can be seen as logical if you think about it long enough...
08-12-2009, 08:05 AM
#73
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Has not been discussed yet.
No difference in the warm-up time. That job is handled by the water thermostat.
True about the quicker cool down period. True, this will require the car to again warm-up to operating temps again. True, this will impact mpg if you make frequently, short trips. The "increased wear" is a weak argument. While being technically true, it is splitting hairs. If one is concern with wear to this extent, don't start the car and stay home.
But, what is also true is that the car will retain all of it's power and not become gutless!
<<a poster commented that a modification like this takes away from several aspects of Honda's original engineering>>. Damn right it does. It takes away Honda's total lack of concern for underhood heat management. If Honda's original engineering meant to engineer an oven, they did a fine damn job.
No difference in the warm-up time. That job is handled by the water thermostat.
True about the quicker cool down period. True, this will require the car to again warm-up to operating temps again. True, this will impact mpg if you make frequently, short trips. The "increased wear" is a weak argument. While being technically true, it is splitting hairs. If one is concern with wear to this extent, don't start the car and stay home.
But, what is also true is that the car will retain all of it's power and not become gutless!
<<a poster commented that a modification like this takes away from several aspects of Honda's original engineering>>. Damn right it does. It takes away Honda's total lack of concern for underhood heat management. If Honda's original engineering meant to engineer an oven, they did a fine damn job.
08-12-2009, 10:16 AM
#76
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Two things -
A) The hack of the oem plastic cowl is looking like a no-go. The cowl is designed to really hug the hood. If the plastic was cut to open up the gap, there is little remaining of the original cowl. If we attempt to leave sufficient parts of the cowl in place, the gap is too small to be effective as an "ultimate cooling mod".
B) For those that do try this mod, please place tape over the hvac fresh air inlet as shown in pic below. Place tape to completely seal closed the opening. This is a precaution to prevent water from entering the opening. There is not a direct line of sight, so to speak, for the water to enter this opening. And, this area does have a raised ridge acting as a barrier/dam because this gutter area is designed to handle water. However, with the cowl off, there is a chance some water could find it's way into the opening.
A) The hack of the oem plastic cowl is looking like a no-go. The cowl is designed to really hug the hood. If the plastic was cut to open up the gap, there is little remaining of the original cowl. If we attempt to leave sufficient parts of the cowl in place, the gap is too small to be effective as an "ultimate cooling mod".
B) For those that do try this mod, please place tape over the hvac fresh air inlet as shown in pic below. Place tape to completely seal closed the opening. This is a precaution to prevent water from entering the opening. There is not a direct line of sight, so to speak, for the water to enter this opening. And, this area does have a raised ridge acting as a barrier/dam because this gutter area is designed to handle water. However, with the cowl off, there is a chance some water could find it's way into the opening.
08-12-2009, 10:31 AM
#77
Oderint dum metuant.
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https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-photograph-gallery-96/check-out-wdp-hood-revscene-meet-626189/
08-12-2009, 10:56 AM
#78
Team Owner
I'm almost afraid to say this out loud because I'm well aware of the negatives associated with it.....
I wonder what would happen if we lowered water temps by 5-10 degrees via the thermostat.....
Of course there would be many supplimental things that would have to go along with this such as fan turn on point which would make it pretty much not worth doing. There's always the chance the computer won't like it and throw a check engine light too.
I wonder what would happen if we lowered water temps by 5-10 degrees via the thermostat.....
Of course there would be many supplimental things that would have to go along with this such as fan turn on point which would make it pretty much not worth doing. There's always the chance the computer won't like it and throw a check engine light too.
08-12-2009, 10:59 AM
#79
Safety Car
Thread Starter
IHC,
Please try this ultimate cooling mod. As I was reading thru your 109 octane thread, you car's symptoms sound perfect for this mod... starts off driving strong and 10 minutes later becomes gutless.
Worth a try. The mod is reversible. The hardest part is getting those wiper arms off. Might need a puller.
As a reminder, you will be losing the hvac fresh air and windshield washer.
QUICK EDIT - This post is not in reply to yours directly above. Just seen your post as mine was posted.
Please try this ultimate cooling mod. As I was reading thru your 109 octane thread, you car's symptoms sound perfect for this mod... starts off driving strong and 10 minutes later becomes gutless.
Worth a try. The mod is reversible. The hardest part is getting those wiper arms off. Might need a puller.
As a reminder, you will be losing the hvac fresh air and windshield washer.
QUICK EDIT - This post is not in reply to yours directly above. Just seen your post as mine was posted.
