TL without a battery
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TL without a battery
I wanted to learn more about "what happens when the modern cars runs without a battery"....is it a good thing/bad thing....will it work, it wont work?
I am currently running a 11LB braille battery and was thinking of going battery-less....I will be carrying a small jumper unit with me which will start the car up....
At a stop light, how will the car react/work without the battery
I know i will have to follow the idle relearn process but if am running the JnR ECU, will I have to do the same?
Let the learning begin
I am currently running a 11LB braille battery and was thinking of going battery-less....I will be carrying a small jumper unit with me which will start the car up....
At a stop light, how will the car react/work without the battery
I know i will have to follow the idle relearn process but if am running the JnR ECU, will I have to do the same?
Let the learning begin
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Justn, i am in to learn and would like to explore this option...if you have an answer post it up, else STFU....sorry but am being really straight forward and dont give a shit what you do with your rabbit....
the 5 W's, Anil. the 5 W's.
it will help your readers understand your thought process and serve as a guide to others.
right now, your post doesnt make too much sense.
How are you going to accomplish this goal?
Where have you seen this done before?
As a reader, I want to understand you. I want to know whats going on.
at least give some sources to what you have found.
Because, I TOO, love to learn.
Last edited by justnspace; Oct 25, 2012 at 02:06 PM.
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really...I told what am running right now and mentioned that i would like to run battery-less....
from my understanding the only job for the battery is to start the car....and I will be carrying a lighter jumper kit to suffice that....
so if I remove the battery will i encounter any problems? will the TL "run" (and not start) without the battery? does the battery have any other functions under the hood? will removing the battery ruin the alternator or any other electronic components....
clear enough?
from my understanding the only job for the battery is to start the car....and I will be carrying a lighter jumper kit to suffice that....
so if I remove the battery will i encounter any problems? will the TL "run" (and not start) without the battery? does the battery have any other functions under the hood? will removing the battery ruin the alternator or any other electronic components....
clear enough?
really...I told what am running right now and mentioned that i would like to run battery-less....
from my understanding the only job for the battery is to start the car....and I will be carrying a lighter jumper kit to suffice that....
so if I remove the battery will i encounter any problems? will the TL "run" (and not start) without the battery? does the battery have any other functions under the hood? will removing the battery ruin the alternator or any other electronic components....
clear enough?
from my understanding the only job for the battery is to start the car....and I will be carrying a lighter jumper kit to suffice that....
so if I remove the battery will i encounter any problems? will the TL "run" (and not start) without the battery? does the battery have any other functions under the hood? will removing the battery ruin the alternator or any other electronic components....
clear enough?
have you seen this done before?
how did you get the idea?
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nope never seen this done before....I have a braille 11lb battery which i had to jump when the weather dipped below 50degs. I borrowed a jumper kit from Matt which is lighter than the battery and hence thought, what if I remove the battery and relocate the jumper kit to the trunk for a little better weight distribution....
so thought let me post it up and ask more knowledgeable people on the forum before I mess something up LOL
so thought let me post it up and ask more knowledgeable people on the forum before I mess something up LOL
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i will lose the time (clock), any stored engine codes (ECU reset)....and yes since I have front racing seats, the seat/rear view mirror memory has been long gone
I will have to do the idle relearn every time but if am running the JnR ECU i might not have to do the ECU relearn....
If i reckon right, Andy is running quick disconnects...so he disconnects the battery everytime he turns the car off...hence losing the stored ECU (not JnR) map....am thinking around the same lines but what if you dont have a battery at all....
this is what am getting online (mixed opinions)
http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=64984
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_car_...hout_a_battery
http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_...ct_battery.htm
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1983117
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Bumbino, any references/past experiences ?
Nightehawk, i will be jumping the car with the jumper unit which i carry....so once the car is started up, do I need the battery, will it harm anything else? those are the questions I have
Nightehawk, i will be jumping the car with the jumper unit which i carry....so once the car is started up, do I need the battery, will it harm anything else? those are the questions I have
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swoosh, Hi speed, KN_TL, NIGHTEHAWK+
I see hi speed and KN lurking !!! post up and help out
swoosh, Hi speed, KN_TL, NIGHTEHAWK+
I see hi speed and KN lurking !!! post up and help out
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http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_...ct_battery.htm
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Sorry, I didnt go exactly to the point, the alternator will stress out if the battery is not connected, here's something I found regarding this issue.
http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_...ct_battery.htm
http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_...ct_battery.htm
i posted that link couple posts up LOL
If I'm understanding this right, I think your accessories will stop functioning.
A few months ago I forgot to re-tighten my battery cables after doing some work and they popped off while I was driving. All the power cut on and off intermittently, but I don't think the engine ever stalled out.
Only accesories, lights, and dash cut in and out.
A few months ago I forgot to re-tighten my battery cables after doing some work and they popped off while I was driving. All the power cut on and off intermittently, but I don't think the engine ever stalled out.
Only accesories, lights, and dash cut in and out.
Big plans not enough $$$
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If I'm understanding this right, I think your accessories will stop functioning.
A few months ago I forgot to re-tighten my battery cables after doing some work and they popped off while I was driving. All the power cut on and off intermittently, but I don't think the engine ever stalled out.
Only accesories, lights, and dash cut in and out.
A few months ago I forgot to re-tighten my battery cables after doing some work and they popped off while I was driving. All the power cut on and off intermittently, but I don't think the engine ever stalled out.
Only accesories, lights, and dash cut in and out.
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If I'm understanding this right, I think your accessories will stop functioning.
A few months ago I forgot to re-tighten my battery cables after doing some work and they popped off while I was driving. All the power cut on and off intermittently, but I don't think the engine ever stalled out.
Only accesories, lights, and dash cut in and out.
A few months ago I forgot to re-tighten my battery cables after doing some work and they popped off while I was driving. All the power cut on and off intermittently, but I don't think the engine ever stalled out.
Only accesories, lights, and dash cut in and out.
am thinking of selling the 11 lb-er to someone who live in FL/TX/CA (basically where the climate never goes below 55 degs) and then just running a 18.5 lb-er which i think should last through the winter without a problem....
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^^^ yes....the 11lber does not have enough CCA (cold cranking amp to fire up the TL)....the TL needs 550 CA to start up...
11lbs battery = 360 CA at 0deg, 486 CA at 32deg and this started the car up just fine when the weather was 50deg plus
17lbs battery = 475 CA at 0deg, 641 CA at 32deg...i bet this will start the car up fine even in the cold weather
11lbs battery = 360 CA at 0deg, 486 CA at 32deg and this started the car up just fine when the weather was 50deg plus
17lbs battery = 475 CA at 0deg, 641 CA at 32deg...i bet this will start the car up fine even in the cold weather
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I thought we discussed this, do not do it. You can lose more weight yourself than the difference this will be. Hell that jumper weighs 6-7 lbs and your battery is already 11 lbs. So is it worth 4 lbs to possibly ruin the electronics/alternator of your car.
If you want to shed more weight you know how to lose a quick pound *cough* Dead pedal *cough*
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Modern vehicles can not run properly without a battery. That does not mean they will not, most will run after you entirely remove the battery, just VERY poorly and it's extremely hard on everything. I would not recommend running a vehicle without a battery for any period of time, it's just a really bad idea. I wouldn't even do the BS 'remove battery with engine idling' alternator test on my own car. It's not a great idea and tells you very little.
Alternators don't store power like a battery does, they convert mechanical energy into electrical. Most every alternator ever made also has some sort of load detection system (typically not on the alternator itself) that helps to both minimize the load on the engine when not required, and stabilize the voltage output to maintain expected performance of all electronics for all conditions. The alternator needs to maintain a relatively steady voltage from when you are at idle, all the way up to redline, and it typically has no idea how fast it is spinning. The voltage also should remain relatively constant as the electrical system is loaded, but typically there is a load detector that senses how much power is being consumed and adjusts the field to the alternator to maintain a steady output for all conditions. The only problem here, is it's physically impossible to be able to measure and react to changing power requirements instantaneously. The alternator stores near zero energy, so if you need more than its putting out, you're out of luck until it can make some more. This can cause massive brief drops in system voltage. That's where the battery comes in. It loads down the alternator, which makes it's job of supplying power DRAMATICALLY easier. With a healthy battery, you can't ever really have major voltage transients without substantial current. Therefore, it's extremely easy for the alternator to make sure it never throws dangerously high voltage out, even when you are loading it down with 100A+ and suddenly remove this load out of nowhere. The alternator is technically still putting out this power until it realizes the load is gone, and this can create massive voltage spikes in some systems. With a reasonable battery, this really isn't possible. And for those times when you need a little bit more power than the alternator is supplying, which is every time you use an electric device in the vehicle, the battery has energy reserves to start feeding that power until the alternator can react.
This is basically how most charging systems work in cars. Be aware that these 'delays' are extremely brief, but extremely import to the system working. If the voltage ever drops below something like 8-10V at the ECU, the engine stalls. Luckily the ECU has some limited capacitance on board, but not really enough to make things safe. What I could see happening when you remove the battery, is the electrical system can enter some sort of oscillation where the engine is more or less stalling and restarting constantly. Even if it does not do this at idle, it wouldn't be that hard to start a nasty oscillation that would cause serious issues or the vehicle to stall. Turning on headlights, turn signals, opening a window, or any reasonably high peak power load might do it. Since the engine has mass and will continue to spin, it does has some inherent 'capacitance' so to speak, but it's not directly electrical and the alternator actually takes power to energize the field to make power. There's just too many potential problems without a battery or other form of substantial storage. Especially on vehicles with DBW and electronic ignition. Unless it has a carb and mechanical everything, don't do this.
Typical stator wound style generators are 'self exciting' and generate the field voltage as they spin, so a gasoline generator isn't the best example, but its the same otherwise. If anyone has ever loaded down a big generator and then suddenly removed the load, the engine surges up past its typical speed, and therefore the output voltage increases accordingly. If you have a very low power device thats voltage sensitive on a generator at the same time a big device turns off suddenly, you can blow up the small device since its the only thing 'loading' the generator down and it takes the grunt of the voltage spike. The battery in your car just makes sure things never get too nasty for your sensitive electronics inside.
Alternators don't store power like a battery does, they convert mechanical energy into electrical. Most every alternator ever made also has some sort of load detection system (typically not on the alternator itself) that helps to both minimize the load on the engine when not required, and stabilize the voltage output to maintain expected performance of all electronics for all conditions. The alternator needs to maintain a relatively steady voltage from when you are at idle, all the way up to redline, and it typically has no idea how fast it is spinning. The voltage also should remain relatively constant as the electrical system is loaded, but typically there is a load detector that senses how much power is being consumed and adjusts the field to the alternator to maintain a steady output for all conditions. The only problem here, is it's physically impossible to be able to measure and react to changing power requirements instantaneously. The alternator stores near zero energy, so if you need more than its putting out, you're out of luck until it can make some more. This can cause massive brief drops in system voltage. That's where the battery comes in. It loads down the alternator, which makes it's job of supplying power DRAMATICALLY easier. With a healthy battery, you can't ever really have major voltage transients without substantial current. Therefore, it's extremely easy for the alternator to make sure it never throws dangerously high voltage out, even when you are loading it down with 100A+ and suddenly remove this load out of nowhere. The alternator is technically still putting out this power until it realizes the load is gone, and this can create massive voltage spikes in some systems. With a reasonable battery, this really isn't possible. And for those times when you need a little bit more power than the alternator is supplying, which is every time you use an electric device in the vehicle, the battery has energy reserves to start feeding that power until the alternator can react.
This is basically how most charging systems work in cars. Be aware that these 'delays' are extremely brief, but extremely import to the system working. If the voltage ever drops below something like 8-10V at the ECU, the engine stalls. Luckily the ECU has some limited capacitance on board, but not really enough to make things safe. What I could see happening when you remove the battery, is the electrical system can enter some sort of oscillation where the engine is more or less stalling and restarting constantly. Even if it does not do this at idle, it wouldn't be that hard to start a nasty oscillation that would cause serious issues or the vehicle to stall. Turning on headlights, turn signals, opening a window, or any reasonably high peak power load might do it. Since the engine has mass and will continue to spin, it does has some inherent 'capacitance' so to speak, but it's not directly electrical and the alternator actually takes power to energize the field to make power. There's just too many potential problems without a battery or other form of substantial storage. Especially on vehicles with DBW and electronic ignition. Unless it has a carb and mechanical everything, don't do this.
Typical stator wound style generators are 'self exciting' and generate the field voltage as they spin, so a gasoline generator isn't the best example, but its the same otherwise. If anyone has ever loaded down a big generator and then suddenly removed the load, the engine surges up past its typical speed, and therefore the output voltage increases accordingly. If you have a very low power device thats voltage sensitive on a generator at the same time a big device turns off suddenly, you can blow up the small device since its the only thing 'loading' the generator down and it takes the grunt of the voltage spike. The battery in your car just makes sure things never get too nasty for your sensitive electronics inside.
Can I ask you what the point is of running battery-less if you are going to have to carry a jumper-unit with you anyways? The difference in weight between a braille battery and a jumper unit would be negligible, you would be better off cutting some weight dieting or driving without shoes/socks on.
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No, the battery is your buffer. If you didn't need the battery, you'd see drag supras and whatnot just jumping themselves on the track. This is also a safety hazard. What if it dies in the middle of the highway and you didn't have time or the ability to pull over? Bad idea IMO.
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What ZOMGVTEK said for the most part is my understanding of it coming from an electronics and electricity side.
Also think about this.....if your 11lb Braille battery doesn't have enough juice to start your car when it is cold, how is a 7lb jump box going to start it reliably when cold?
For what its worth, when my battery cable broke off and I was trying to get it to the dealer, my car ran like complete ass. We cleaned off my terminal and used electrical tape to hold the cable to the battery so I could drive the few miles to the dealer. Every time I hit a bump, the gauges went dead and my engine sputtered.
Also think about this.....if your 11lb Braille battery doesn't have enough juice to start your car when it is cold, how is a 7lb jump box going to start it reliably when cold?
For what its worth, when my battery cable broke off and I was trying to get it to the dealer, my car ran like complete ass. We cleaned off my terminal and used electrical tape to hold the cable to the battery so I could drive the few miles to the dealer. Every time I hit a bump, the gauges went dead and my engine sputtered.
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I thought we discussed this, do not do it. You can lose more weight yourself than the difference this will be. Hell that jumper weighs 6-7 lbs and your battery is already 11 lbs. So is it worth 4 lbs to possibly ruin the electronics/alternator of your car.
If you want to shed more weight you know how to lose a quick pound *cough* Dead pedal *cough*
battery (11.5lbs) + jumper unit (7lbs) + jumper cable (7lbs) so am carrying an extra 14lbs coz my battery will suck in the winter (it sucked this morning)....I was thinking of either getting a 17lb battery and eliminating the jumper unit + cable or just carrying the jumper unit and eliminating the battery.....
Modern vehicles can not run properly without a battery. That does not mean they will not, most will run after you entirely remove the battery, just VERY poorly and it's extremely hard on everything. I would not recommend running a vehicle without a battery for any period of time, it's just a really bad idea. I wouldn't even do the BS 'remove battery with engine idling' alternator test on my own car. It's not a great idea and tells you very little.
Alternators don't store power like a battery does, they convert mechanical energy into electrical. Most every alternator ever made also has some sort of load detection system (typically not on the alternator itself) that helps to both minimize the load on the engine when not required, and stabilize the voltage output to maintain expected performance of all electronics for all conditions. The alternator needs to maintain a relatively steady voltage from when you are at idle, all the way up to redline, and it typically has no idea how fast it is spinning. The voltage also should remain relatively constant as the electrical system is loaded, but typically there is a load detector that senses how much power is being consumed and adjusts the field to the alternator to maintain a steady output for all conditions. The only problem here, is it's physically impossible to be able to measure and react to changing power requirements instantaneously. The alternator stores near zero energy, so if you need more than its putting out, you're out of luck until it can make some more. This can cause massive brief drops in system voltage. That's where the battery comes in. It loads down the alternator, which makes it's job of supplying power DRAMATICALLY easier. With a healthy battery, you can't ever really have major voltage transients without substantial current. Therefore, it's extremely easy for the alternator to make sure it never throws dangerously high voltage out, even when you are loading it down with 100A+ and suddenly remove this load out of nowhere. The alternator is technically still putting out this power until it realizes the load is gone, and this can create massive voltage spikes in some systems. With a reasonable battery, this really isn't possible. And for those times when you need a little bit more power than the alternator is supplying, which is every time you use an electric device in the vehicle, the battery has energy reserves to start feeding that power until the alternator can react.
This is basically how most charging systems work in cars. Be aware that these 'delays' are extremely brief, but extremely import to the system working. If the voltage ever drops below something like 8-10V at the ECU, the engine stalls. Luckily the ECU has some limited capacitance on board, but not really enough to make things safe. What I could see happening when you remove the battery, is the electrical system can enter some sort of oscillation where the engine is more or less stalling and restarting constantly. Even if it does not do this at idle, it wouldn't be that hard to start a nasty oscillation that would cause serious issues or the vehicle to stall. Turning on headlights, turn signals, opening a window, or any reasonably high peak power load might do it. Since the engine has mass and will continue to spin, it does has some inherent 'capacitance' so to speak, but it's not directly electrical and the alternator actually takes power to energize the field to make power. There's just too many potential problems without a battery or other form of substantial storage. Especially on vehicles with DBW and electronic ignition. Unless it has a carb and mechanical everything, don't do this.
Typical stator wound style generators are 'self exciting' and generate the field voltage as they spin, so a gasoline generator isn't the best example, but its the same otherwise. If anyone has ever loaded down a big generator and then suddenly removed the load, the engine surges up past its typical speed, and therefore the output voltage increases accordingly. If you have a very low power device thats voltage sensitive on a generator at the same time a big device turns off suddenly, you can blow up the small device since its the only thing 'loading' the generator down and it takes the grunt of the voltage spike. The battery in your car just makes sure things never get too nasty for your sensitive electronics inside.
Alternators don't store power like a battery does, they convert mechanical energy into electrical. Most every alternator ever made also has some sort of load detection system (typically not on the alternator itself) that helps to both minimize the load on the engine when not required, and stabilize the voltage output to maintain expected performance of all electronics for all conditions. The alternator needs to maintain a relatively steady voltage from when you are at idle, all the way up to redline, and it typically has no idea how fast it is spinning. The voltage also should remain relatively constant as the electrical system is loaded, but typically there is a load detector that senses how much power is being consumed and adjusts the field to the alternator to maintain a steady output for all conditions. The only problem here, is it's physically impossible to be able to measure and react to changing power requirements instantaneously. The alternator stores near zero energy, so if you need more than its putting out, you're out of luck until it can make some more. This can cause massive brief drops in system voltage. That's where the battery comes in. It loads down the alternator, which makes it's job of supplying power DRAMATICALLY easier. With a healthy battery, you can't ever really have major voltage transients without substantial current. Therefore, it's extremely easy for the alternator to make sure it never throws dangerously high voltage out, even when you are loading it down with 100A+ and suddenly remove this load out of nowhere. The alternator is technically still putting out this power until it realizes the load is gone, and this can create massive voltage spikes in some systems. With a reasonable battery, this really isn't possible. And for those times when you need a little bit more power than the alternator is supplying, which is every time you use an electric device in the vehicle, the battery has energy reserves to start feeding that power until the alternator can react.
This is basically how most charging systems work in cars. Be aware that these 'delays' are extremely brief, but extremely import to the system working. If the voltage ever drops below something like 8-10V at the ECU, the engine stalls. Luckily the ECU has some limited capacitance on board, but not really enough to make things safe. What I could see happening when you remove the battery, is the electrical system can enter some sort of oscillation where the engine is more or less stalling and restarting constantly. Even if it does not do this at idle, it wouldn't be that hard to start a nasty oscillation that would cause serious issues or the vehicle to stall. Turning on headlights, turn signals, opening a window, or any reasonably high peak power load might do it. Since the engine has mass and will continue to spin, it does has some inherent 'capacitance' so to speak, but it's not directly electrical and the alternator actually takes power to energize the field to make power. There's just too many potential problems without a battery or other form of substantial storage. Especially on vehicles with DBW and electronic ignition. Unless it has a carb and mechanical everything, don't do this.
Typical stator wound style generators are 'self exciting' and generate the field voltage as they spin, so a gasoline generator isn't the best example, but its the same otherwise. If anyone has ever loaded down a big generator and then suddenly removed the load, the engine surges up past its typical speed, and therefore the output voltage increases accordingly. If you have a very low power device thats voltage sensitive on a generator at the same time a big device turns off suddenly, you can blow up the small device since its the only thing 'loading' the generator down and it takes the grunt of the voltage spike. The battery in your car just makes sure things never get too nasty for your sensitive electronics inside.
Thanks mah man....I guess I will be keeping the battery and might get a 17lb one....
Can I ask you what the point is of running battery-less if you are going to have to carry a jumper-unit with you anyways? The difference in weight between a braille battery and a jumper unit would be negligible, you would be better off cutting some weight dieting or driving without shoes/socks on.
from the responses above, I think i will get the 17lb battery....
No, the battery is your buffer. If you didn't need the battery, you'd see drag supras and whatnot just jumping themselves on the track. This is also a safety hazard. What if it dies in the middle of the highway and you didn't have time or the ability to pull over? Bad idea IMO.
What ZOMGVTEK said for the most part is my understanding of it coming from an electronics and electricity side.
Also think about this.....if your 11lb Braille battery doesn't have enough juice to start your car when it is cold, how is a 7lb jump box going to start it reliably when cold?
For what its worth, when my battery cable broke off and I was trying to get it to the dealer, my car ran like complete ass. We cleaned off my terminal and used electrical tape to hold the cable to the battery so I could drive the few miles to the dealer. Every time I hit a bump, the gauges went dead and my engine sputtered.
Also think about this.....if your 11lb Braille battery doesn't have enough juice to start your car when it is cold, how is a 7lb jump box going to start it reliably when cold?
For what its worth, when my battery cable broke off and I was trying to get it to the dealer, my car ran like complete ass. We cleaned off my terminal and used electrical tape to hold the cable to the battery so I could drive the few miles to the dealer. Every time I hit a bump, the gauges went dead and my engine sputtered.
the jumper unit comes with a charger which i can charge at work/home and it provides 700 peak amps....well lets just say it will start the car
Thanks all for the replies....I guess, I will be getting a 17lb battery.....just a suggestion to people who are looking for braille battery's is dont get the 11lb battery if you live where the temp dips below 50....
Really though, it might be a silly thought but I think a few good points were made in this post. First, it's important to note that the alternator doesn't provide a very constant output and that the battery is needed as a buffer. Second, the fact that modern vehicles are sensative to fluctuations in voltage. Some people might not have known that.
You know what they say:
OP is apparently a fuckin racecar driver and needs maximum weight loss and weight distribution in his 4 door luxury car. Is a battery seriously throwing off your bad ass driving skills? You're just inconveniencing yourself by having to jump your car every time you start it.
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OP is apparently a fuckin racecar driver and needs maximum weight loss and weight distribution in his 4 door luxury car. Is a battery seriously throwing off your bad ass driving skills? You're just inconveniencing yourself by having to jump your car every time you start it.
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Really though, it might be a silly thought but I think a few good points were made in this post. First, it's important to note that the alternator doesn't provide a very constant output and that the battery is needed as a buffer. Second, the fact that modern vehicles are sensative to fluctuations in voltage. Some people might not have known that.
You know what they say:
You know what they say:
i didnt know that....
:what:
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From: Hernando, MS
The Track Terror
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From: Dallas, TX
Hey swoosh how about the 15lb. Braille? 574 CCA at 32 degrees....I think I'll be getting this one...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BRL-B2015/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BRL-B2015/