Throttle body spacer? Pros? Cons?
#81
Three Wheelin'
Few problems with your statements:
1. 1 inch by 6 inch chunk of good T6061 Aluminum is about 20 dollars
2. CNC milling to cut out the centers + bolt holes + vac port = 5 dollars
3. Product testing and planning (esp for the gaskets) = 1000's of dollars
4. People hired to package and check each piece shipped = 1 dollar each
5. Having XLR8 check and resend stuff = 10 dollars each
6. Profits for all the selling parties - $x
7. Coatings for the spacers = 3 dollars
8. Misc extended bolts and other hardware = 20 dollars
now you can see why it costs so much.
Also the shuttle uses RCC (reinforced Carbon Carbon tiles on the nose-cone and other area's with a ceramic coating to help refract heat from the sunlight (white tiles on top) and black ceramic on the bottom to radiate heat during re-entry... Price of RCC = Close to $100,000 per panel (size of the sheet of paper)
1. 1 inch by 6 inch chunk of good T6061 Aluminum is about 20 dollars
2. CNC milling to cut out the centers + bolt holes + vac port = 5 dollars
3. Product testing and planning (esp for the gaskets) = 1000's of dollars
4. People hired to package and check each piece shipped = 1 dollar each
5. Having XLR8 check and resend stuff = 10 dollars each
6. Profits for all the selling parties - $x
7. Coatings for the spacers = 3 dollars
8. Misc extended bolts and other hardware = 20 dollars
now you can see why it costs so much.
Also the shuttle uses RCC (reinforced Carbon Carbon tiles on the nose-cone and other area's with a ceramic coating to help refract heat from the sunlight (white tiles on top) and black ceramic on the bottom to radiate heat during re-entry... Price of RCC = Close to $100,000 per panel (size of the sheet of paper)
I know what the shuttle uses, but thanks for the re-entry pre-caution lessons ......serioulsy, did you think i was referring to ceramic tiles you buy at home depo, for ur nice bathroom floor?
a lot of things are simple "figure of speech", but im not even gonna argue anything with you...i know ill piss you off and the only way for u to get to me is, ban me from the forum...but anyway...you're right
#82
maybe this has already been posted, but you guys to realize that you can gain or lose more than 5hp just with the freaking weather right? doing a mod that gains or a collection of mods that gain less than 20hp (tested the right way, with the hood down during the dyno) is only good for one thing: your e-peen.
#83
Team Owner
maybe this has already been posted, but you guys to realize that you can gain or lose more than 5hp just with the freaking weather right? doing a mod that gains or a collection of mods that gain less than 20hp (tested the right way, with the hood down during the dyno) is only good for one thing: your e-peen.
#84
Three Wheelin'
maybe this has already been posted, but you guys to realize that you can gain or lose more than 5hp just with the freaking weather right? doing a mod that gains or a collection of mods that gain less than 20hp (tested the right way, with the hood down during the dyno) is only good for one thing: your e-peen.
#85
Team Owner
I'm not trying to say anything bad about Excelerate. He just sells the stuff.
I've worked in a CNC shop. Most of the time goes to writing the program and running a few tests before going to the final product. Then you have to set the slab or sheet of aluminum up on the table to have it machined. Not hard but it does take a little time.
This piece is extremely easy and quick to make. I'm sure there's one setup of a block of aluminum, push the start button and it probably makes no less than 5 of them from a single block with no human intervention. It could be a 4 table machine and make 20 at once. Really, once the programs are written, the labor involved is nothing. The main cost is tool replacement which probably happens every 10,000 units.
We did CNC porting of some 4 cylinder Honda heads. Set them up, push the start button and 15 minutes later clean them up and sell for a 10,000% profit. Nothing wrong with that but I don't buy that these spacers cost more than $15 max to make and most of that is the raw material. Keep in mind the aluminum filings that get machined off get recycled.
I've worked in a CNC shop. Most of the time goes to writing the program and running a few tests before going to the final product. Then you have to set the slab or sheet of aluminum up on the table to have it machined. Not hard but it does take a little time.
This piece is extremely easy and quick to make. I'm sure there's one setup of a block of aluminum, push the start button and it probably makes no less than 5 of them from a single block with no human intervention. It could be a 4 table machine and make 20 at once. Really, once the programs are written, the labor involved is nothing. The main cost is tool replacement which probably happens every 10,000 units.
We did CNC porting of some 4 cylinder Honda heads. Set them up, push the start button and 15 minutes later clean them up and sell for a 10,000% profit. Nothing wrong with that but I don't buy that these spacers cost more than $15 max to make and most of that is the raw material. Keep in mind the aluminum filings that get machined off get recycled.
#86
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
and another thing is, not every car is the same...we;ve had comparisions with civics... there's a goddamn 4 banger inside that bay...there's so much more room in there which accounts for more air circulating inside, acting like a heat exhanger to what's released from the motor...while the TLs bay is jam packed compared with a civic... its just not the same, aside from the fact that its more than twice the size of a civic motor
I just can't figure you guys out. You guys clamor for dynos; then when I provide dynos you clamor for real world experience. If I gave you 500 claims that ppl felt a butt dyno gain you would say the gains are in their head, but I gave you dyno and information from different resources and its BS. In fact, I gave you independent dynos which have been replicated numerous times over showing a power gain; I gave you a dyno of a 3rd gen TL showing 5 whp and 8 ft lbs of tq. I'm just amazed that someone than can try to be so informative to the community can be so narrowminded.
#87
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
You guys need to stay on topic. Is it the performance or the cost? Every TB spacer I have seen made by manufacturers other than P2R cost more.
Airaid, Helix, Powerspacer, etc all have a market value of $90-$100 whereas P2R's spacer is $70. Look at Outlaw Engineering. He sells two pieces of plastic and some paper gaskets for over $100.
And even if P2R was making a high profit margin on each of these spacers does it really matter? They are still cheaper than most other spacer manufacturers. P2R has to cover all their expenses and make profit and then their dealers have to cover theirr expenses and make some profit. Do you think the companies you work for don't make money? Do you think their profit margin is 5%? Do you like your paycheck? Suppose I say all the services you guys provide are worth $3 to me so does that mean you should make $3/hr? I mean I said your services aren't worth that much so it must be true, right?
Airaid, Helix, Powerspacer, etc all have a market value of $90-$100 whereas P2R's spacer is $70. Look at Outlaw Engineering. He sells two pieces of plastic and some paper gaskets for over $100.
And even if P2R was making a high profit margin on each of these spacers does it really matter? They are still cheaper than most other spacer manufacturers. P2R has to cover all their expenses and make profit and then their dealers have to cover theirr expenses and make some profit. Do you think the companies you work for don't make money? Do you think their profit margin is 5%? Do you like your paycheck? Suppose I say all the services you guys provide are worth $3 to me so does that mean you should make $3/hr? I mean I said your services aren't worth that much so it must be true, right?
#88
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Good point, and I understand what your saying but I still find $110 for it is pretty steep, Like I stated, if it was cheaper or you could send me one to try to prove all these people wrong, I would do it, with an open mind. I am always willing to try new things....
#89
Three Wheelin'
EXR8.... do you own and drive a 3g tl everyday? .....when you do, let me know, and then we will talk...i think its become more of a personal issue, rather than the product backing up the claims....you didnt design it, and have no engineering expertise on such, therefore everything you claim about it, is nothing but the claims stated from the manufacturers themselves, which is something that everyone has access to. just like when they claim about filters and intake systems improving performance and mpg? how on earth can you increase power in a motor through induction, but reducing fuel consuption? how?????? the only way i know is, that would improve fuel consumption and release HP...reduce drag from the motor. but im pretty sure you advertise that as well...just like the manufacturers do, and the poor ppl believe it too
i find it very funny how you ingored everything else i said, and decided to respond to the civic bay vs. TL bay.
anyway...im done with this. i dont care if ppl buy the spacers, or dont buy the spacers.... we try and give you the real link to the real problem. but its ignored, because a dyno showing few hp increase is such a powerful manipulating weapon, and has ppl by the balls.
funny how while i had the fans blowing on top of the motor, for some reason, each pull showed more power, back to back, no cool downs, 4 times in a row....i just wonder!!! hmmmm could the same thing happen while gaskets are being tested? OF COURSEEEE
so you see, on a dyno, you can maintain and improve, by not even doing any power gaining mods in between runs. yet, after each pull, its supposed to get worse..but no, because its not real world, running through a 90+ degree weather, in shit humidity
dont worry about quoting me on this...i simply no longer care about proving anything else
i find it very funny how you ingored everything else i said, and decided to respond to the civic bay vs. TL bay.
anyway...im done with this. i dont care if ppl buy the spacers, or dont buy the spacers.... we try and give you the real link to the real problem. but its ignored, because a dyno showing few hp increase is such a powerful manipulating weapon, and has ppl by the balls.
funny how while i had the fans blowing on top of the motor, for some reason, each pull showed more power, back to back, no cool downs, 4 times in a row....i just wonder!!! hmmmm could the same thing happen while gaskets are being tested? OF COURSEEEE
so you see, on a dyno, you can maintain and improve, by not even doing any power gaining mods in between runs. yet, after each pull, its supposed to get worse..but no, because its not real world, running through a 90+ degree weather, in shit humidity
dont worry about quoting me on this...i simply no longer care about proving anything else
#90
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
everyone let's chill EXCELER8 is just doing his job...and like I said, if he gave me the opportunity to TRY the product I would install and review it and come back with some results with an open mind. It's up to you EXCELERATE...I am willing to put your product to the test...you let me know...thanks
#91
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
does removing all the plastic from the engine bay do anything for cooling for real?
what about cutting out the top part above the acura emblem, the cheap mesh material?
what about cutting out the top part above the acura emblem, the cheap mesh material?
#92
King of NYC
iTrader: (6)
Until the car is run down the 1/4 and shows some gains, the butt dyno means nothing. They only claim 5hp. Even if that were true, no one can feel a 5hp difference in a 3,500lb car.
This site is full of people claiming this mod or that mod makes a huge difference yet only a handful have ever made a pass especially with before and after results.
This site is full of people claiming this mod or that mod makes a huge difference yet only a handful have ever made a pass especially with before and after results.
Every time I get in a bone-stock TL (I have done this a few times. I have 3-4 friends who have stock TLs) I realize the DEFINITIVE difference in the character in which my car drives. It is SO much faster off the line, it really pulls at mid-rpm. And when they drive my car and their neck snaps they say "WOW!!! What did you do to the car??" My car doesn't even drive or feel like a TL anymore, it makes that much difference. This difference was created by mods I have been told that give negligible gains if any. How is this possible? Nope I know I am not dreaming, no placebo effect here. On top of that my car has improved by 3-4 mpg for sure. And I don't need to dyno my car to affirm anything, I know it's true.
So we all have our opinions. People have to try something for themselves to see if it's for them. If it is, it is. If it isn't it isn't.
Last edited by rockyfeller; 08-23-2009 at 05:13 PM.
#94
Team Owner
#95
A-spec steering wheel ftw
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Roslyn Heights, New York
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ahhhh it's another one of "those" threads.....
In my unscientific opinion, I installed the P2R spacer about 6 wks ago really expecting nothing. I heard from so many people that is does nothing. I was pleasantly surprised because I definitely did feel a bit more pep and boost. And I know it wasn't my mind playing tricks on me. It was an immediate but subtle difference. But really, don't expect too much. I DID have to trim the silicone coupler about 1" for clearance with the CAI.
I changed to a AEM V2 a couple weeks ago and that is a different story. Car growls MUCH more than with the V1. The increased pull from 4-5000 rpms is definitive and undeniable. Again, not HUGE gains but definitely something there. I was told by some that the difference is negligable. Again that is false in my opinion. I DIDN'T have to trim the silicone coupler with the V2 because it fits differently.
I will have my ATLP quads in a week and I heard that there is not much to look forward to in terms of power but I bet I will find it!
Crank Pulley has been sitting here I KNOW that is a guaranteed feel of force not to mention a ATLP V2 J-pipe in the future which seems to garner universal praise.
Bottom line, I listen to people's opinions without arguing and take everything with a grain of salt. I always make up my own mind on my own personal experience. I don't think you will really know till you try it. And for whatever you don't like, there is always someone on the BM who will gladly take it off your hands.
In my unscientific opinion, I installed the P2R spacer about 6 wks ago really expecting nothing. I heard from so many people that is does nothing. I was pleasantly surprised because I definitely did feel a bit more pep and boost. And I know it wasn't my mind playing tricks on me. It was an immediate but subtle difference. But really, don't expect too much. I DID have to trim the silicone coupler about 1" for clearance with the CAI.
I changed to a AEM V2 a couple weeks ago and that is a different story. Car growls MUCH more than with the V1. The increased pull from 4-5000 rpms is definitive and undeniable. Again, not HUGE gains but definitely something there. I was told by some that the difference is negligable. Again that is false in my opinion. I DIDN'T have to trim the silicone coupler with the V2 because it fits differently.
I will have my ATLP quads in a week and I heard that there is not much to look forward to in terms of power but I bet I will find it!
Crank Pulley has been sitting here I KNOW that is a guaranteed feel of force not to mention a ATLP V2 J-pipe in the future which seems to garner universal praise.
Bottom line, I listen to people's opinions without arguing and take everything with a grain of salt. I always make up my own mind on my own personal experience. I don't think you will really know till you try it. And for whatever you don't like, there is always someone on the BM who will gladly take it off your hands.
regardless of how "effective" the TBS is there are a few things we can't really deny
1) we ALL want to mod, that involves spending money. The real problem is people picking where the "deals" are and arent. - Arguably the 3G has NEVER been worth the HP to $ ratio for any mod. - our hubris gets the better of us, and we like to shit all over everything naturally as humans are programmed to do - we're just a "different" breed and we dont fall for those $15 dollar chips that gain us 15MPG and 50WHP...haha - in lieu of all this, i think this thread needs to chill out and calm down. Some ppl drop 1000W systems in their trunks (and get flamed for adding weight etc etc, slower car boo hoo hooo)....and then there are some ppl (myself included) that dropped money for the TSB...either way, it's just ANOTHER mod, unfortunately minus NOS, S/C, CAI, exhaust, precat delete - REAL REAL gains are all marginal, and even the mentioned 5 (well minus nos) was a PITA and not entirely worth the dollar/hp - but hey we LOVE the 3G, that's why we're here
2) the TBS elongates the length of air being sucked in, and does compliment the CAI very nicely (MINUS the fact that the CAI needs to be cut down ..ironic ) - that alone may be worth it to some ppl to drop the cash for the TSB (i dont remember how much it costs anymore). - i dunno if it's just me, but when i was in St. Louis, and in NY, i still get ppl asking me if there's a turbo under there (sadly no), but for the "cool" factor, it was worth it.
can't we ALL just get along??? GROUP HUG!!!
#97
Three Wheelin'
^^^^^what are you? in 5th grade? when someone dislikes something, its automatically assumed as hating...thats just very insecure of u about what youve done...apparently what you do is meant for more than just yourself...so u wont feel good about it untill everyone else likes and approves. too bad some ppl wont tell you exactly what you wanna hear...and someone like me sure as hell will tell you the truth...if ur lights look like shit..thats my opinion, they do...like it or not..too bad, so dont ask! can't expect everything you do to be liked and approved by others..thats just the core of insecurity.
#99
How oh how did this thread degenerate to this level?
I for one think the p2r spacer helps, but it is not worth the $110. If I end up keeping my '05 tl for more than a year, I will probably invest in one. For now, I just want to install by Richie V2 jpipe.
I for one think the p2r spacer helps, but it is not worth the $110. If I end up keeping my '05 tl for more than a year, I will probably invest in one. For now, I just want to install by Richie V2 jpipe.
#100
Three Wheelin'
i think the blame goes to OP lol.
it really isn't about the 100 bucks either...its about the superior claims. sometimes we will spend 100 even when its simply in our heads that something will have an effect...even if it doesnt, its what we believe, therefore we go for it....but to make such thing sound like the hand of god, its just ridiculous. and to hear "omg i feel it, i feel so much faster, hey here i comeeee , im flyinggggg) ....lets get real
it really isn't about the 100 bucks either...its about the superior claims. sometimes we will spend 100 even when its simply in our heads that something will have an effect...even if it doesnt, its what we believe, therefore we go for it....but to make such thing sound like the hand of god, its just ridiculous. and to hear "omg i feel it, i feel so much faster, hey here i comeeee , im flyinggggg) ....lets get real
Last edited by Opel; 08-23-2009 at 08:24 PM.
#101
Team Owner
No one was arguing before this, we were discussing a mod. So don't pick a fight and then step back and ask what everyone is fighting for.
#102
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I think people just find you (I hate cars) discouraging, I know I do on occasion because you seem to down every mod...
what mods do you think are good anyways?
do you even have a TL?
what mods do you think are good anyways?
do you even have a TL?
#103
Three Wheelin'
dave....you came in here asking for advice...u put up this thread...now you dont consider anything whatsoever.....everyone wants a certain mod, but need to feel sure about it, so they ask, even though they'v already made up their minds that it is the right thing to do and there isn't a thing that can change that...but still ask, and at the same time ignore anything that doesn't match their mindset. all i hear is bitching and moaning, will this do this, or will it do that, and what happens to this when i do this, what if this, what if that...and because of this and because of that...i want ice but dont want it cold, i wanna put my hand on top of the stove but dont wanna get burnt...wtfffffffffff, holy christ,,,,,buncha little girls
#104
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
ummm ok everyone just needs to chill....everyone is different and alot of people have questions, last time I check that is what this site if for...I am willing to try anything once.
EXCELERATE:
I sent a message to EXCELERATE to give me a deal on the TBS and I will report back to acurazine....I am waiting for his response to see if he will take me up on the offer, and I will do it with an open mind.
EXCELERATE:
I sent a message to EXCELERATE to give me a deal on the TBS and I will report back to acurazine....I am waiting for his response to see if he will take me up on the offer, and I will do it with an open mind.
#105
Team Owner
I'm not discouraging, I'm realistic. If you search back a year ago, I told everyone that the TL would be a real contender with boost in the form of a turbo. I've helped with that setup as best as I can and sure enough, it's come about and makes 430whp reliably.
I just don't believe in spending hundreds of dollars on something that may or may not give a couple hp. In just about any other car forum, mods like exhaust and CAI are just setting it up for the real mods to follow. On this forum, people spend way too much time on the "best CAI" or "best exhaust". IMO, these items are only there so you have the flow available for the real mods like cams, ported/aftermarket heads, turbo/superchargers.
#106
I think someone hit a nerve with their profit margin on this product. You are lucky if this part costs $25.
I think it should be clarified that the ramblings of an "internet engineer", who seems and I stress seems to be knowledgeable, are not necessarily true. The TB spacer is made out of aluminum (it is 3/4" thick); the thermal gaskets are made out of a proprietary material and they are about 1/8" thick. The material costs money, the machines cost money, shipping costs money, labor costs money. We also have to make some money when selling the product. So $70 for a piece of aluminum and $20 for each gasket is not a rip off. In fact it's cheaper than most other companies' spacers who generally sell the spacer alone for $100.
#108
Where and how did you derive your cost for this breakdown?
When, I see people jump in and support the supplier's as much as the individuals in here, I believe they are being supported directly by them to promote their products. That is, offering free samples in exchange of publication.
When, I see people jump in and support the supplier's as much as the individuals in here, I believe they are being supported directly by them to promote their products. That is, offering free samples in exchange of publication.
Few problems with your statements:
1. 1 inch by 6 inch chunk of good T6061 Aluminum is about 20 dollars
2. CNC milling to cut out the centers + bolt holes + vac port = 5 dollars
3. Product testing and planning (esp for the gaskets) = 1000's of dollars
4. People hired to package and check each piece shipped = 1 dollar each
5. Having XLR8 check and resend stuff = 10 dollars each
6. Profits for all the selling parties - $x
7. Coatings for the spacers = 3 dollars
8. Misc extended bolts and other hardware = 20 dollars
now you can see why it costs so much.
Also the shuttle uses RCC (reinforced Carbon Carbon tiles on the nose-cone and other area's with a ceramic coating to help refract heat from the sunlight (white tiles on top) and black ceramic on the bottom to radiate heat during re-entry... Price of RCC = Close to $100,000 per panel (size of the sheet of paper)
1. 1 inch by 6 inch chunk of good T6061 Aluminum is about 20 dollars
2. CNC milling to cut out the centers + bolt holes + vac port = 5 dollars
3. Product testing and planning (esp for the gaskets) = 1000's of dollars
4. People hired to package and check each piece shipped = 1 dollar each
5. Having XLR8 check and resend stuff = 10 dollars each
6. Profits for all the selling parties - $x
7. Coatings for the spacers = 3 dollars
8. Misc extended bolts and other hardware = 20 dollars
now you can see why it costs so much.
Also the shuttle uses RCC (reinforced Carbon Carbon tiles on the nose-cone and other area's with a ceramic coating to help refract heat from the sunlight (white tiles on top) and black ceramic on the bottom to radiate heat during re-entry... Price of RCC = Close to $100,000 per panel (size of the sheet of paper)
#110
Three Wheelin'
IHC.....whats the best filter i can use for my CAI...if i can contain ice inside the filter, will my IATs drop? perhaps more than the "special gaskets"?
i could also freeze my own ice, instead of paying a supplier for it...
roflllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
i could also freeze my own ice, instead of paying a supplier for it...
roflllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
#111
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (1)
This thread has run its course.
OP- you have more than enough info to chew on. If you end up getting this product, post your review.
Closed.
OP- you have more than enough info to chew on. If you end up getting this product, post your review.
Closed.
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