Inaccurate

No need for a science book. I can offer the Cliff note version.

Nature loves equilibrium. Nature will attempt to reach a balancing point from a higher state to a lower state. This applies to the transfer of heat also. Heat travels from anything warm (relative to the other) to anything that is cooler.

Warmer ------direction of heat flow--------> Cooler

The heat will flow in that direction until both sources are at the same temp.

Inaccurate

IHC,

I have just one thing to say....... eeeek

You are tougher than me. I just took the easy way out by cooling off the engine bay to not upset the troublemaker. Good luck on hunting down the true identity of this aka troublemaker!

Here is one of my previous quotes in case you overlooked it -

As discussed in the thread "Please HELP !!...Car sluggish or Flies" (link), we don't know specifically what component in the engine compartment is the troublemaker. But, there is a troublemaker. When that troublemaker gets too warm, there is trouble (loss of power). Instead of trying to solve who is the troublemaker, I decided to just make the entire engine compartment stay cool. Then he (whoever is the troublemaker) will not cause trouble.

I hate cars

I've wrapped everything in the turbo car with the exception of the primaries. Only reason I didn't wrap them is they're on the verge of failure all the time. Each pass has them bright yellow and I'm afraid the wrap would cause them to fail. On the TL, there should be no problem wrapping everything, making sure the 02 sensors can breath of course.

Opel

i wonder if anyone's done that.... i have the cat deletes wrapped and sprayed with silicon, and it helps a lot.

this is just the wrap.


and this is sprayed after the wrap

Maddizm

iTrader: (5)

^ That looks RAD! when I get this turbo what should I be wrapping? As for the p2r spacer? The PROS of the product have been argued for a while... It doesn't seem there are any cons, except to your wallet.

Opel

you would be wrapping the exhaust pipes from the heads to the turbo manifold, the downpipe, and the waste gate pipe if its external.....im not too sure if the kit comes with pre-wrapped pipes or at least the wrap included. you would have to ask Rodney about that...but lets keep this thread to what its intended and not turn it into another turbo thread lol...even though we're discussing heat issues, as the spacers were "intended" to kinda take care of.

Inaccurate

Well got damn it, I don't see any downside to having the spacers installed. I might add that it would be nice if the person understands under what conditions the spacer will be beneficial. That is, the only downside might be having unrealistic expectations.

I forgot to add this comment last night. Once a person *does* have their underhood heat management under control (such as running The Ultimate Cooling Mod), then the spacer(s) become a *must have* addition. Why? Once a person has significantly reduced or eliminated the underhood temps, then (and only then for a street-driven 3G TL) is the overriding source of heat, which transfers heat into the IM/TB, become the engine block.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

I installed the spacer with thermal gaskets on each side. After long driving, hard runs, and in the summer like now, I can pull to the side of the road, pop my hood, and my intake system is touchable. Previously it would be burning hot that I couldn't keep my hand on it for longer than a second or two.



Also, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone just get their cat deletes and j-pipe coated from JetHot or similar. That would cut down on temps a lot and you would not risk cracking like you do with wrapping.

I hate cars

So somehow the underhood heat doesn't transfer to your intake like it does on every other TL out there?? The gaskets make it immune to this heat transfer through the air?

This is what you guys are missing. I suspect the majority of the heating problem comes not from heat transfer from the head to the intake but from the air to the intake.

Inaccurate

CleanCL,

What TL do you have - 2G, 3G or 4G ?

I like your idea of using the thermal gaskets with the Outlaw in between. The black spacer is an Outlaw, right? What brand are those white nylon appearing thermal gaskets? I want to duplicate your setup. I have the Outlaw already, but I need to get those white thermal gaskets. Where do I order those white thermal gaskets?

Inaccurate

IHC,

Let's wait to see if CleanCL has a 2G. I think he is a 2G, and that would explain it. The 2G does not have cats in the engine compartment like the 3G.

chill_dog

P2R...thermal gasket > spacer > thermal gasket. I think you can just buy the spacer or the gaskets...or buy the set.

Inaccurate

Thanks chill_dog

I found it. Vendor is Excelerate. Is there one piece per package? I need two of the white gaskets like CleanCL's pic shows. I need to order two packages, right?

chill_dog

^I can't see CleanCL's pic...are we talking about the TB spacer or the IM spacer? I assumed the TB since that's what this thread's about and you can get the TB spacer in black so it sounded like what you described (white > black > white = gasket > TB spacer > gasket). If you're talking about the IM spacer (as in your picture), you would definitely need two as there is only one per pack, similar to how the OE one you have came.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

I have a 4G 3.7L TL.

You need to order two thermal gaskets. And yup, it's a 3G Outlaw kit, that I sandwiched with P2R gaskets. I'm also using the P2R Throttle Body spacer with 2 thermal gaskets as well.

I'm just saying, from my personal experience, while the engine is running, even in the summer after driving aggressively, the intake manifold remains warm and not burning hot like before. What I do notice though, as soon as I turn the car off, the engine bay and intake manifold heats up to extremely hot temperatures. While the car is running, I can easily put my hand on the manifold, when it's off, I cannot.

I know the converters in my 3.7L are different than the 3G Type S, but I feel like the argument remains the same. Also according to the body specifications both the 3G Type S and 4G models use diffusers to deflect and direct air on the motor. Obviously this is while the car is in motion, so sitting still it has no bearing.

Where is the IAT sensor located on the 3G? Mine is located directly in front of the throttle body on the intake tube, where in my 2G it was located on the intake manifold. I've been under my hood a lot and do not get this 'oven' feeling you guys are talking about.

Inaccurate

Interesting. The 4G does have underhood cats too like the 3G. Interesting that your IM stays that cool while in motion. Have you checked it after driving over 30 minutes in 95+ weather (honest inquisitive question, no sarcasm intended)?

The "oven" comment is based on logically knowing how hot it gets in the 3G engine compartment. It is an exaggerated metaphor. Obviously, it is not 400 degrees because the plastic would melt and you would have no brakes (master cylinder components melting too). I feel no woof of hot air when I raise my hood either. The small volume of hot air in the compartment quickly dilutes with the surrounding air as you raise the hood. Feel around. Feel the strut bar, feel the metal part of master cylinder, feel other metal objects under the hood.... this is the tell-tale indicators of how hot it is under there....well, at least for the 3G.

Inaccurate

chill_dog,

Thanks for the info. I was talking about the spacer between intake runners and the manifold. Based on your info, I now know that I need to purchase two packages. Thanks

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

Actually I lied, the IAT is not on the intake tube on the 4G, I was looking at a different sensor. And it's not at the 3G location... weird. It's gotta be somewhere.

Yes, actually this past week we have been experiencing a bit of a heat wave in New York, 90+ degrees. It's definitely warm in the bay, I'm not saying it's cold, but the parts I have tried touching are not scolding. Once I turn the vehicle off, the parts start to get hotter. It sounds weird I know.

Inaccurate

No worry. It is really a moot discussion. The term "hot" is a relative term. What really counts is that troublemaker under the hood. It is "his" opinion that we should be concerned with. When aka Troublemaker says that it's too hot, then it is too hot..... kiss your 3G power goodbye

davewhodavedunn

I was going to buy thi throttle body spacer, and I probaly would have, but I find that the cost of it, as opposed to benefits aren't worth it. To be honest Id probably TRY it if it was $50, but the overhead to make this product is like probably $1.00. Anyways thanks for the tips guyz!

Opel

Dave listen bud.... Find urself a 1/2"-3/4" hard plastic (I used a kitchen plastic chopping board, it won't melt lol) take off ur throttle boddy, lay it on top, outline it, mark the holes, dremel the fucking thing.... You get a 2-in-1 thing...the spacer+insulator...for the cost of nothing...and shit down on these fucking rocket science thermobullshit spacers. They stick up so much fucking unnecessary science to these things, that make them sound like the hand of god, and they're not...trying to stop heat transfer in a Civic is one thing and the 3G TL is a whole new ball game.. I think some ppl tend to forget that the TB still has to be bolted up...fucking heat transfers through the bolts also...when they test these things, they eleminate all coolant routing into the TB and IM, just do what I told you!!!

davewhodavedunn

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Ya fuck the throttle body spacer rip off...$110 for a peice of metal

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I think it should be clarified that the ramblings of an "internet engineer", who seems and I stress seems to be knowledgeable, are not necessarily true. The TB spacer is made out of aluminum (it is 3/4" thick); the thermal gaskets are made out of a proprietary material and they are about 1/8" thick. The material costs money, the machines cost money, shipping costs money, labor costs money. We also have to make some money when selling the product. So $70 for a piece of aluminum and $20 for each gasket is not a rip off. In fact it's cheaper than most other companies' spacers who generally sell the spacer alone for $100.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I'm confused like an idiot.

Just buy it if you like it.

Don't buy it if you don't like it.

Opel

Come on man, let's get real..there's too much unneccesary science applied to this, for the simple fact of luring and manipulating people into buying it, the more bullshit u apply to it, the more you increase its value..u out of all should know there's one and only one reason behind this..no one gives a shit about increasing ur car's performance. It is MAXIMUM PROFIT my friend...the most effort is put towards the first piece of product, and the rest is mass produced. That piece of the fancy aluminum that you see is worth less than 10 cents, and another 10 cents for the fancy plastic..thank god they don't say "developed to NASA standards", cause then I'd really be pissed off... You wanna get slick about this and have the best heat transfer stopping spacer??? Use a ceramic spacer. Same stuff used to shield the nose and the bottom of a Space Shuttle. The stuff that you can hold in ur hand while torching the center of it and not feel the heat. Its just CERAMIC.

This is not about internet engineers,,this is about real life experience, and it doesn't take a science degree either. Going around and reading some sciencific explanations about some product, doesn't justify it enough. I don't blame you for backing all this up..I would probably do the same if I was in ur shoes. You do what you do for a reason, and that's to make money, which we all understand, everyone does...I don't expect anyone to come out and claim nothing about their product and what they sell and have no back up for it, and expect it to be bought either.

But just don't expect me and some others to buy into everything and every advertisement backed up by some cheap 5th grade science.

(Sometimes the fine print states)
"results may vary". <<< That's just to save my ass from advertising false clamims

davewhodavedunn

I am glad someone stands up to people like this who claim their product is worth $110 when the over head on it is probably less than $10. Anyways Like I said, id be willing to try it, but not for $110.

PS anyone know anyways to get ride of some heat in the 3g engine...it robs horsepower like a mother fucker!

Opel

I don't have anything against anyone here, much less Exel.

Dave, I showed you how to try it for less than $10...in the previous post.

Getting rid of engine bay heat...start with getting rid of all plastic, under hood insulator, plastics under the engine, cut open the center piece of ur stock grille and mesh it, or get a grille that allows more air to get inside the engine bay . Get the cat-deletes and heat wrapp them (cats release a lot of heat under the hood), just like in the pic I posted. This way ur making more power and reducing power robbed from the oven-like engine bay

JCL622

i think the only down side with the TB spacer is that you lose space on your CAI, and it's hard to find a good place to cut down the CAI, so ultimately the firewall bracket section will tear.

some have "fixed" this, but if you're not good with the saw, expect your CAI To tear a hole over time....unless you never drive WOT...ever

gkr-718

lol there is no way u can feel the 5 whp not even 10

davewhodavedunn

What would taking all the plastic under the hood do? you mean the battery cover and the side plastic peices on the left and right side?


I might cut the grille, but can't stuff fly in the engine then, and people could pop your hood?

Opel

That would help heat escape..don't just cut the grille and leave it open, man....I said mesh it...or an aftermarket mesh grille that deletes the center piece

Inaccurate

The Ultimate Cooling Mod (click here)

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

ahhhh it's another one of "those" threads.....

In my unscientific opinion, I installed the P2R spacer about 6 wks ago really expecting nothing. I heard from so many people that is does nothing. I was pleasantly surprised because I definitely did feel a bit more pep and boost. And I know it wasn't my mind playing tricks on me. It was an immediate but subtle difference. But really, don't expect too much. I DID have to trim the silicone coupler about 1" for clearance with the CAI.

I changed to a AEM V2 a couple weeks ago and that is a different story. Car growls MUCH more than with the V1. The increased pull from 4-5000 rpms is definitive and undeniable. Again, not HUGE gains but definitely something there. I was told by some that the difference is negligable. Again that is false in my opinion. I DIDN'T have to trim the silicone coupler with the V2 because it fits differently.

I will have my ATLP quads in a week and I heard that there is not much to look forward to in terms of power but I bet I will find it!

Crank Pulley has been sitting here I KNOW that is a guaranteed feel of force not to mention a ATLP V2 J-pipe in the future which seems to garner universal praise.

Bottom line, I listen to people's opinions without arguing and take everything with a grain of salt. I always make up my own mind on my own personal experience. I don't think you will really know till you try it. And for whatever you don't like, there is always someone on the BM who will gladly take it off your hands.

davewhodavedunn

ya but is it worth the $110 plus shipping for something that is just a peice of metal?

I hate cars

Until the car is run down the 1/4 and shows some gains, the butt dyno means nothing. They only claim 5hp. Even if that were true, no one can feel a 5hp difference in a 3,500lb car.

This site is full of people claiming this mod or that mod makes a huge difference yet only a handful have ever made a pass especially with before and after results.

davewhodavedunn

ok well then what is a good mod that is relativley easy to do that will give me some good increases is horsepower?

Any other ways than stripping the car to lower the engine temps? I thought of marking a intake tube from the grille to the SRI filtre, but their aint alot of room to work in the engine bay

davewhodavedunn

removing all the plastic peices in the engine will actually make it cooler? is that true?

OLD_HATCH

I put this one down in the "every little helps" category. Just like indexing your plugs or disconnecting the coolant lines from your tb etc.


I have never tried one of these product but can offer some insite as I own a turbo car thats pretty prone to heat soak.

I figure as long as the air temp in the bay is under x temperature it will probably make a difference you can feel. (kinda like a pep not really increased hp) Once you have been stuck in traffic or the engine bay is over x temperature for enough time to bring up all engine parts to said x temperature it will feel like always losing that pep feeling.

The again there is always the argument that when the engine is under load at wot the air doesnt really have enough time to absorb heat from the intake parts.



Of course then theres always the argument that the air in the engine bay will never get as hot as the block/cylinder head so an isolating gasket will always help keep the intake temperatures the same as ambient temperatures which would be significantly less than what the engine would be.

Opel

understandable....but some of us here aren't basing this on simple opinions, or feel... some of us have tested these things....ill tell you one simple example....watching my IATs 85 degrees, 50% humidity, stop and go traffic...IAT reads 165-175..at highway speeds, it takes a good amount of time to bring that down, at minimal throttle opening, and it wont go below 150, for at least 15-20 mins

after removing plastics from under the motor, and simply cutting out the middle piece of the front grill...having a mesh installed in place...this allows more air to flow inside the bay...even a stand still, even though not ram air..ambient air can still flow in freely... for the past week, ive been driving in 90+ degrees, disgusting humidity, stop and go...IAT never got past 155...even after idling for 10-15 mins... it also takes much longer for the IAT to even reach that temp...and it takes much less time of highway cruise to drop temps to 135 degrees with minimal throttle opening.

i just dont get why some dont understand this....it is not so hard...... the intake components (runners, IM, TB, CAI tubing) are being heated up by the engine bay heat, released from the motor along with the cats that sit in there, and when the fans start blowing, drawing so much heat from the radiator, blasting it through the engine bay (when the fan's running, i can't keep my hand in front of the blowing air's path for more than a few seconds)... this doesn't indicate that heat isnt transfering from the heads to the intake runners and IM...it is...but even if the gaskets were to cut down that transfer to 50%....eventually everything will be heated up by engine bay heat,

fact is, i know a lot of ppl like the dress up platics through the engine bay, and some even paint them...so that makes matters even worse, since all they do is trap heat inside the bay.

and another thing is, not every car is the same...we;ve had comparisions with civics... there's a goddamn 4 banger inside that bay...there's so much more room in there which accounts for more air circulating inside, acting like a heat exhanger to what's released from the motor...while the TLs bay is jam packed compared with a civic... its just not the same, aside from the fact that its more than twice the size of a civic motor

your IAT's under normal driving conditions during the summer (not WOT) and i say normal driving, local driving... eventually WILL BE THE SAME AS ENGINE BAY TEMPS. so, drop engine bay temps, you drop intake temps

there simply wont be enough air flow through the induction system to start cooling down its own path so you could at least get abient IATs, or around that at low speeds and local driving, unless you run at WOP for a prolonged time and cool everything down...but soon enough temps will skyrocket all over again, once engine bay air flow is cut down when ya stop...enabling all the stored heat energy just erupt from the motor and it has nowhere to go, which at first was taken care of by the bay air flow acting as a heat exhanger. NO MORE ,MY FRIEND

csmeance

Few problems with your statements:

1. 1 inch by 6 inch chunk of good T6061 Aluminum is about 20 dollars
2. CNC milling to cut out the centers + bolt holes + vac port = 5 dollars
3. Product testing and planning (esp for the gaskets) = 1000's of dollars
4. People hired to package and check each piece shipped = 1 dollar each
5. Having XLR8 check and resend stuff = 10 dollars each
6. Profits for all the selling parties - $x
7. Coatings for the spacers = 3 dollars
8. Misc extended bolts and other hardware = 20 dollars

now you can see why it costs so much.

Also the shuttle uses RCC (reinforced Carbon Carbon tiles on the nose-cone and other area's with a ceramic coating to help refract heat from the sunlight (white tiles on top) and black ceramic on the bottom to radiate heat during re-entry... Price of RCC = Close to $100,000 per panel (size of the sheet of paper)