hey i just ordered a tb spacer and an underdrive crank pully, how much wheel hp can i expect to gain?

 

i'd say about 10-12 max.

 

hell that is not to bad that will be a tenth or 2 at least

 

about 0 WHP. The point of the spacer is to reduce heatsoak from running the car hard. The UR pulley won't add HP, it will reduce the weight of components that need to be spun by the motor, thus allowing the motor to reach its powerband faster.

 

You're going against everything the vendors here want us to believe....

 

^^ he's right though

UR pulley doesnt really add much HP at all... but it does affect performance... lets the car rev a little quicker...

the P2R spacer will probably add like 4-5whp on a dyno, because after you pull the car two or three times, it keeps the temps done on the IM and the IAT probably reads a touch cooler...

great investments though...

 

IMO those will add about 10 whp. I have both and I still stand firm in saying that hands down without a doubt the pulley was te best bang for the buck mod I have done. It revs up faster and pulls harder, chirps into 3rd gear after the pulley change too. Certainly an awesome addition.

As far as the spacers the theory of those is what counts. Kinda like when I cleared my 3rd cat I wasnt able to notice a difference but I am sure it did something.

 

spacers are about heat soak- see www.outlawengineering.com for good tech background

the pulley, by spinning the ac compressor slightly slower, adds available power-
and the approximatly 70%!!! weight loss off the end of the crankshaft allows MUCH faster rev- so you get into the torque band faster- which is the kick in the pants feelings of accelleration range of the rpm

 

wow you guys know alot about this stuff. I know where to go when I want to build a rocket or a spaceship!

 

thanks you guys have been helpfull

 

does it affect the a/c at all?

 

you may notice slightly less performance from the ac at idle speed
but on the freeway its fine

 

I'm not sure we can help you build a rocket- unless its made from TL parts~

 

The underdrive is 10-15%. It's very minimal and will not affect the A/C or alternator unless you have a large stereo system (over 600 watts RMS).

 

The TB spacer increases plenum volume, the thermal gaskets reduce intake air temps which allow the ECU to make adjustments esp with timing and therefore make more hp.

The UR pulley frees up hp and parasitic drag and makes a noticeable difference with throttle response and allows the vehicle to rev out quicker.

 

And after your upgrades, dont forget to reset ur ECU by disconnecting the negative terminal from the battery abd let it sit for 20 mins. (First making sure you have your stereo anti-theft code handy). I drove for for 1,000 miles after installing my underdrive pulley without reseting the ECU with little to no change in how fast the car revs, but upon the reset, it was amazing how different it felt. As other have said this is the BIGGEST BANG FOR YOUR BUCK!

 

if you have an exhaust, you will have fun using all the buttons as it requires a tiny bitty bit of idle to get those accessories working

 

I've got the OUTLAW ENGINEERING, phenolic, TB spacer & the accompanying intake manifold spacer installed to my '06 TL AT.

To be honest, I can't tell how well it performs, but I accept the science of it that it does work. OUTLAW ENGINEERING claims the Gen 2 TL sees 8.6 whp from this, but I believe rating TB spacers can be misleading, since they really don't create power; instead, they slow the rate of heat transfer (conduction) from the engine manifold to the intake, throttle body & CAI. That is, these gizmos slow the rate of temperature related deterioration of engine output. So, IMO, a fair way of looking at their value is to see how your car’s power output will deteriorate more slowly with phenolic spacers compared to staying with the metal stock ones.

Comparing two identical setups, one w & w/o the spacers, & where both cars start up cold & drive the same route, the car with the phenolic spacers will produce slightly more power at any point in time compared to the one with metal spacers. This only holds true until the intake & throttle body become ‘heat soaked’…after that, the spacers’ value is dubious.

All-in-all, IMO, the spacers are a worthwhile mod since they’re cheap & do actually work, especially during cold weather driving.

 

the point of the spacers IS to block that heat soak, by stopping a majority of the direct contact metal to metal heat transfer that exist on stock setup
the V6 engine radiates heat upward to the aluminum intake manifold- soaking the manifold
in addition to the metal heat transfer

some test by ziners with scanner- show 20 degree air temp rise stock from outside air to air inside the manifold- and only 10 degree rise inside the manifold with the Outlaw spacer installed-
thats a huge amount of power gain right there!

Both brands are very good at the heat transfer slowage, with different approaches and materials

Making sea level power at 5000 feet on a 100 degree day is the end result

In airplanes- we do everything possible to reduce parasitic drag~

 

what??

 

Imagine how well a TB spacer/insulator works when you have 190 degree coolant flowing through the TB anyway. It's not my money so I don't care but it's funny how many people will waste money on stuff that does nothing.

The UR pulley will add a little power. #1 is underdriving accessories. Secondary is the weight reduction. Regardless of how people want to look at it, the whole "getting to the powerband quicker" is laughable. The engine has less mass to accelerate thus producing more hp while torque remains the same. The difference is less than turning the AC compressor off.

 

01TL4TL, yes, as you described, lots of heat transfer to the intake components happens by heat coming off the engine block (& transmission casing)...actually this is convective heat...the surrounding air gets heated by the engine/tranny & then rises to transfer its heat to whatever it comes in contact with under the hood.

Whether or not one is sold on the idea of using phenolic spacers, OUTLAW ENGINEERING's site IMO did a good job of explaining the issues related to intake temperature...isolating temperature really matters, & is worthwhile to keep the intake from the CAI on through the fuel rails as cool as possible...that will make more hp.

I live in So Cal & attest how my cars have more seat-of-pants performance leaving my neighborhood on the cool of a winter morning than on a summer drive through Palm Springs w. 115 degrees ambient temperature. Those varying conditions represent a large horsepower spread since hotter intakes represent more rarified air pressure w. less density of oxygen.

 

The advantages of a cold intake charge have been known for over 100yrs. What I'm arguing about is what's the point of putting a spacer or insulating gasket between the TB and intake manifold when you're pumping 195 degree coolant through the TB anyway.

For what it's worth, when the engine is running and with all stock gaskets, my TB with the water blocked is about ambient temp while the intake manifold is a bit hotter. It seems like the stock gaskets do a fine job at insulating.

 

Good point about hot coolant flowing through the TB...

I recognize how marketing can run wild with unsubstantiated claims. The folks at OUTLAW ENGINEERING could be lying or maybe not...they present several before/after dynos w. their claims. Technically, one of the strongest cases for using these devices is recognizing that phenol resin laminates are one among a host of compounds that are very poor conductors of heat...they make great thermal insulators. OE's website provides a technical argument for how such an insulation conducts only 1/688th the heat of stock steel gaskets; conversely, steel provides terrible heat insulation.

Also, for those so inclined, adding a thermal insulation wrap to the CAI would make a decent complement to spacers since the latter reduces radient & convective heat from soaking the CAI. Keeping the CAI cool would contribute more to a denser intake charge since the much longer CAI pipe has a much longer contact time with the intake charge than the comparatively short (~ 4" wide) TB.

 

You can disconnect the coolant lines from the TB. But I would only recommend that to those who live in milder climates.

D

 

The point being, why would you buy an insulating gasket if you're not planning on blocking off the water? You have changed nothing at this point.

 

Though I'm zeroing in on one particular product, OUTLAW ENGINEERING TB & intake thermal gaskets, I mention the product's application scheme again as a reasonable answer to claims that these devices don't work.

True, the throttle body heats-up in part from the circulating coolant. However, that's not a deal killer. OE's approach is to isolate conductive heat flowing from the engine block/tranny to the intake manifold, and then to isolate the intake manifold from the throttle body...using two separate gaskets. Also, your CAI is already somewhat insulated from the TB by way of the interconnecting, rubber sleeve that comes with every aftermarket CAI.

This approach (OE's) would reduce/retard the temp (rise) of the intake manifold itself, which by virtue of its much larger surface area would be where the greatest transfer of heat to the intake flow would occur. By comparison, the TB possesses little surface area. It seems reasonable that's how OE's product is able to achieve their dyno-verified horsepower gains.

 

i know this is a stupid question because dealerships charge mucho $$$$ to do anything, but do you think they would install a pulley if asked all nice like? i need to go in soon to have a few things looked at and i thought it would be a good time to slap one on...

 

Because everyone knows that right? And that you made a clear distinction about why would you buy one if not planning on blocking the water off correct? Oh wait that's right you didn't. So I thought I would throw that little fact in since you did not clearly explain that. So in fact I have change something by informing those who were not aware of this.

And you are wrong about the stock gaskets doing a fine job on insulating. Unless you know at what rate it absorbs/transfers heat compared to an aftermarket phenolic spacer. So you must have used a infrared temp gun to verify your claims of the stock gaskets being just fine right?

Because if left to idle long enough it wouldn't matter what type of spacer was on there the parts would absorb heat. Its sort of like an intercooler. It reduces the intake air charge but run long enough and hot enough even an intercooler gets heatsoak. I could go on about this but whats the point you already know right?

D

 

dealer quoted me 300 for the pulley.

i got it done for 70 at a shop - just make sure they have the correct tool

 

I don't follow.

#1 I would not buy a spacer period. Doesn't matter if the water is blocked or still flowing.

A. If the water is flowing through the throttlebody, you can put a 10' spacer in between the TB and intake manifold and they're both going to be about the same temp. Notice I said "about". Again, if even if the TB is separated from the engine and sitting on the ground with water lines hooked up to it, it's going to be at 195 degrees.

B. In my case, my water is blocked and I have stock gaskets. My observations are:

TB is signifigantly cooler than the intake manifold with the engine running. In fact the TB feels about ambient temp while the manifold is hot. The only logical conclusion is that the stock gaskets are doing a good job of insulating.

I do have an infared temp gun and I will do tests to make you happy but I didn't feel the need when one item is too hot to touch and the other feels cool.

#2 Everything is subject to radiant heat. But there's a lot less radiant heat to reject than the heat from a constant flow of coolant which is why the TB is cool without coolant flow and hot with coolant flow.

And an intercooler properly located and sized is not going to heatsoak. That would be like saying every car will eventually overheat because the radiator will heatsoak.

That's why I have a front mount. It acts as a heatsink when sitting on the starting line at 15psi and acts as a radiator once the car is moving. I only see a 3 degree temp rise to the 1/8 mark and it usually stays the same or drops a degree at the end when the 125+mph air is flowing over it.

In the end, I doubt it matters. I only blocked the coolant lines because it was free. No way in hell would I spend a penny on this mod. Even if the TB is ambient I sincerely doubt the car would pick up .5hp because 300CFM of air is moving way too fast with way too little surface area to pick up any real heat.

 

I wouldn't say you gain any hp from it. All it does is delay the loss, due to heat soak, in hp. But I think we are pretty much saying the same thing but just have differing opinions on its effectiveness.

But to put things into perspective on my VW I use to have a had an intake phenolic manifold gasket. With the stock gasket after running the car for a while the intake manifold was too hot to touch but with the phenolic gasket no matter how hard I ran the car the intake manifold was always cool enough to touch, actually cool enough to hold and grasp.

D

 

don5504,

We agree...the spacers are not about making HP, but retarding/delaying the degradation of it due to the value of improved insulation. Relatively speaking, at any timeline behind the wheel, you'll be a ittle ahead of the game having the spacers installed than not.

Also related to spacers, it's a heat CONDUCTION, not heat RADIATION matter here...conduction between intake components in contact with one another. Though radiant heat also occurs, CONVECTIVE heat moreso as far as how the engine block sends a plume of hot, rising air upward. Wrapping the CAI with insulation (discussed on other threads) isn't a bad idea either.

I too experienced the same thing...found that I could keep my hand on top of the TB & especially the intake manifold after driving the car, whereas that was not possible before I installed the spacers.

 

Bottom line, if you're gonna get the tb spacer, you need to bypass the coolant to get the full effect.