Rear mount turbo - Type S
01-23-2015, 08:50 PM
#203
True! and with cheap quality gas available in north America people are playing with fire on high compression engine relying on watermeth to compensate fully which is dangerous. I rather have a 400whp engine that last 5 years+ then a 450 whp for 2-3 months...
01-24-2015, 05:25 AM
#204
One hypothesis on the board here is that it's not that the ring land is too weak, but rather that the end gap is too small and that the rings expand, closing the gap completely and then breaking the ring land.
I don't know if I would disassemble a motor to change the ring end gap alone, but I would DEFINITELY do it if I were already in the motor.
I don't know if I would disassemble a motor to change the ring end gap alone, but I would DEFINITELY do it if I were already in the motor.
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yungone501 (01-24-2015)
01-24-2015, 06:26 AM
#205
One hypothesis on the board here is that it's not that the ring land is too weak, but rather that the end gap is too small and that the rings expand, closing the gap completely and then breaking the ring land.
I don't know if I would disassemble a motor to change the ring end gap alone, but I would DEFINITELY do it if I were already in the motor.
I don't know if I would disassemble a motor to change the ring end gap alone, but I would DEFINITELY do it if I were already in the motor.
01-24-2015, 11:13 AM
#206
Piston failure that was caused by ring gap clearances is easy to detect by looking for shiny surfaces where the ends butt. Also, the cylinder walls will typically be scuffed all the way to the height of where the top ring rests at TDC. In my experience, this occurs with almost all j-series ran under boost or spray and running stock ring gap clearances. Most people assume the ring lands crack due to the pistons weakness but truth is stock bottom ends can handle absurd amounts of power. Though it's not necessary for the rings to be gapped more, it does make it more forgiving under higher temps brought on by detonation. So yes, it's almost ALL in the tune.
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DomGSR-T (01-24-2015)
01-24-2015, 02:20 PM
#208
I agree that tuning is one of the most important mods you can get (if not the most important) but to rely only on the tune on a daily driver you would have to get a mild tune to stay on the safe side. When I'm spending the money on tuning my car I like to make sure I have the supporting mods to safeguard my engine and get the best out of it. I'm not relying on this mods but they are there in the case something unexpectedly change
01-24-2015, 04:08 PM
#209
Piston failure that was caused by ring gap clearances is easy to detect by looking for shiny surfaces where the ends butt. Also, the cylinder walls will typically be scuffed all the way to the height of where the top ring rests at TDC. In my experience, this occurs with almost all j-series ran under boost or spray and running stock ring gap clearances. Most people assume the ring lands crack due to the pistons weakness but truth is stock bottom ends can handle absurd amounts of power. Though it's not necessary for the rings to be gapped more, it does make it more forgiving under higher temps brought on by detonation. So yes, it's almost ALL in the tune.
Robert, you state that it's not necessary for the rings to be gapped more, if you were building a motor for someone with all stock components, would you leave the gap at stock levels and leave it to the tune, or would you increase the gap to allow for more forgiveness? I guess my thinking was, don't do it n an assembled motor, but while you're in there...
01-24-2015, 04:17 PM
#210
I agree that tuning is one of the most important mods you can get (if not the most important) but to rely only on the tune on a daily driver you would have to get a mild tune to stay on the safe side. When I'm spending the money on tuning my car I like to make sure I have the supporting mods to safeguard my engine and get the best out of it. I'm not relying on this mods but they are there in the case something unexpectedly change
Fail safes are good for unexpected failures or issues and I support the use of them 100%. However, they are just that: safety in the case of failure. They should never be used as a primary means of controlling or manipulating tables in the ECM (as you've mentioned). An example would be using a knock detection system such as a Vampire to ride the edge of detonation by observing knock on cylinder(s) and then making necessary timing adjustments. This approach can seem VERY alluring to someone looking to achieve maximum engine power. But if this "fail safe" fails, then guess what happens? People that become too greedy with power eventually learn things the hard way...just as I did.
I basically take the same approach as I explained to RD_04TL above but will make necessary adjustments after major seasonal changes. Also, I try and tune on the absolute driest day possible when doing these seasonal adjustments because moisture in the air takes up space in the air/fuel mixture. This will typically create a great safety margin for days with greater humidity levels as the space it takes up is in place of air which creates a richening affect.
01-24-2015, 04:32 PM
#211
Since we don't have pics in maddog's instance, we can only assume that the ring ends did not touch, or the walls would most likely be scuffed. If they are just dropping in new pistons, that must not be the case.
Robert, you state that it's not necessary for the rings to be gapped more, if you were building a motor for someone with all stock components, would you leave the gap at stock levels and leave it to the tune, or would you increase the gap to allow for more forgiveness? I guess my thinking was, don't do it n an assembled motor, but while you're in there...
Robert, you state that it's not necessary for the rings to be gapped more, if you were building a motor for someone with all stock components, would you leave the gap at stock levels and leave it to the tune, or would you increase the gap to allow for more forgiveness? I guess my thinking was, don't do it n an assembled motor, but while you're in there...
01-25-2015, 07:35 AM
#212
Burning Brakes
I know the tune and failed ringlands have been talked about but I think something was up prior to the turbo install. The dyno numbers where on the low side from the baseline. Didn't seem like the motor was 100% healthy.
02-05-2015, 05:04 PM
#216
Racer
Thread Starter
Update
Well, I had the replacement stock pistons installed with the water/meth system. It was on the dyno getting re-tuned for the water/meth, it was on its last run on the dyno and another piston cracked 
I'm ready for the I told you so's. Anyways SpeedFactory is getting some Arias custom pistons ordered. I am paying for them to get expedited so they should be done in a couple of weeks instead of 4. I'm also looking into some stronger rods now while the pistons are pulled again...
Oh well, I always planned on building the engine at some point, I just didn't think it would be so soon.
On the bright side, before the piston cracked again, the TL was making 393whp and 370 torque.
I'm ready for the I told you so's. Anyways SpeedFactory is getting some Arias custom pistons ordered. I am paying for them to get expedited so they should be done in a couple of weeks instead of 4. I'm also looking into some stronger rods now while the pistons are pulled again...
Oh well, I always planned on building the engine at some point, I just didn't think it would be so soon.
On the bright side, before the piston cracked again, the TL was making 393whp and 370 torque.
02-05-2015, 07:30 PM
#219
Piss thats all I can say, sorry to hear this
02-05-2015, 08:47 PM
#220
Well, I had the replacement stock pistons installed with the water/meth system. It was on the dyno getting re-tuned for the water/meth, it was on its last run on the dyno and another piston cracked
I'm ready for the I told you so's. Anyways SpeedFactory is getting some Arias custom pistons ordered. I am paying for them to get expedited so they should be done in a couple of weeks instead of 4. I'm also looking into some stronger rods now while the pistons are pulled again...
Oh well, I always planned on building the engine at some point, I just didn't think it would be so soon.
On the bright side, before the piston cracked again, the TL was making 393whp and 370 torque.
I'm ready for the I told you so's. Anyways SpeedFactory is getting some Arias custom pistons ordered. I am paying for them to get expedited so they should be done in a couple of weeks instead of 4. I'm also looking into some stronger rods now while the pistons are pulled again...
Oh well, I always planned on building the engine at some point, I just didn't think it would be so soon.
On the bright side, before the piston cracked again, the TL was making 393whp and 370 torque.
Either way, sorry to hear man.
02-05-2015, 09:09 PM
#221
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for the sympathy. It's definitely annoying, but I was mentally prepared for this eventuality, after all I am putting more stress on engine components that weren't made for it.
Honestly the worst thing is not being able to drive the car. I miss the turbo goodness so much...
On the plus side I'm going to have forged pistons, water/meth injection and possibly aftermarket rods so I'm going to turn up the boost a little bit
02-05-2015, 09:17 PM
#222
02-05-2015, 09:22 PM
#224
Racer
Thread Starter
I believe that the CR will be lowered to 10:1, Pauter is the only place I've seen the J series rods, they are quite expensive. The guys at SpeedFactory are researching options on aftermarket rods.
02-05-2015, 09:22 PM
#225
That was supposed to be a picture
Last edited by UTAH TSX; 02-05-2015 at 09:26 PM.
02-05-2015, 09:23 PM
#226
Racer
Thread Starter
^lol
I bought wastegate springs for my turbosmart 40mm compgate yesterday that would allow me to go up to 21psi... I don't think that would be a good idea though. The current spring in the wastegate is 7 psi and I get to 11 psi with my boost controller, I'm thinking I'll put in the 11psi spring and have some overhead.
I bought wastegate springs for my turbosmart 40mm compgate yesterday that would allow me to go up to 21psi... I don't think that would be a good idea though. The current spring in the wastegate is 7 psi and I get to 11 psi with my boost controller, I'm thinking I'll put in the 11psi spring and have some overhead.
Last edited by maddogtheta; 02-05-2015 at 09:36 PM.
02-05-2015, 10:18 PM
#228
02-06-2015, 05:32 AM
#229
^lol
I bought wastegate springs for my turbosmart 40mm compgate yesterday that would allow me to go up to 21psi... I don't think that would be a good idea though. The current spring in the wastegate is 7 psi and I get to 11 psi with my boost controller, I'm thinking I'll put in the 11psi spring and have some overhead.
I bought wastegate springs for my turbosmart 40mm compgate yesterday that would allow me to go up to 21psi... I don't think that would be a good idea though. The current spring in the wastegate is 7 psi and I get to 11 psi with my boost controller, I'm thinking I'll put in the 11psi spring and have some overhead.
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying with the wastegate. If you have a 7 psi spring, you would be limited to 7psi if you don't have a boost controller (given the wastegate is large enough and doesn't creep.)
If you go to an 11psi spring, that is the lowest amount of boost you'll be able to run. A boost controller will let you go higher, as it bleeds off manifold pressure that the wastegate sees, so I don't understand why you couldn't run 20+ PSI with the 7psi spring and a good boost controller.
02-06-2015, 05:59 AM
#230
Should have bought my customs. Can't find off the shelf for $100 each.....someone in CT took them off my hands.
Pauter was the only ones I could find which were close to $1500. But they do make the stocks look like toothpicks.
All this money into your cars and you all won't spend a few hundred on a boost controller instead going to swap springs?????
Pauter was the only ones I could find which were close to $1500. But they do make the stocks look like toothpicks.
All this money into your cars and you all won't spend a few hundred on a boost controller instead going to swap springs?????
02-06-2015, 08:46 AM
#231
Racer
Thread Starter
I'm not going to run 21 psi. I have a boost controller, it must not be a very good one though as it maxes out at 11 psi right now. It's a blox manual boost controller. What boost controller would you guys recommend?
@KN_TL I don't think I realized you were selling your customs until after you had already sold them. In hindsight I should have picked them up.
@KN_TL I don't think I realized you were selling your customs until after you had already sold them. In hindsight I should have picked them up.
02-06-2015, 09:01 AM
#232
It doesn't make sense that the boost controller maxes out at 11. Are you saying that having it set to run as high of boost as it can it won't run more than 11 psi? That sounds more like a mechanical issue with the engine.
The wastegate has a spring that is set for a certain manifold pressure. in your case it is 7psi. The boost controller has a ball and spring that essentially 'fools' the wastegate. It allows you to run more boost as the spring in the boost controller takes more pressure than 7 psi to let pressure flow to the wastegate, thus raising the boost.
If you have it completely tight, I would think the wastegate would never actuate, thus allowing unlimited boost.
Typically people have the opposite problem. They put a small spring in the wastegate and it exceeds that because the wastegate cant evacuate enough exhaust pressure. I believe that is why Utahs went to a different wastegate.
An easy test (well, dangerous tho) would be to disconnect the wastegate pressure line. If you build more than 11psi, then your boost controller might be doing something funky. But, be warned it could go to 40+ psi since the wastegate will never know how much pressure the engine is seeing.
The wastegate has a spring that is set for a certain manifold pressure. in your case it is 7psi. The boost controller has a ball and spring that essentially 'fools' the wastegate. It allows you to run more boost as the spring in the boost controller takes more pressure than 7 psi to let pressure flow to the wastegate, thus raising the boost.
If you have it completely tight, I would think the wastegate would never actuate, thus allowing unlimited boost.
Typically people have the opposite problem. They put a small spring in the wastegate and it exceeds that because the wastegate cant evacuate enough exhaust pressure. I believe that is why Utahs went to a different wastegate.
An easy test (well, dangerous tho) would be to disconnect the wastegate pressure line. If you build more than 11psi, then your boost controller might be doing something funky. But, be warned it could go to 40+ psi since the wastegate will never know how much pressure the engine is seeing.
02-06-2015, 09:22 AM
#234
Racer
Thread Starter
Well it seems like I didn't have to order new wastegate springs since the boost controller should allow me to go above the wastegate spring's psi rating.
@Screamin I think you just solved why I am not seeing over 11psi, I have a 4 bar MAP sensor, but the boost cut off is set to 11.5 psi. Would this be limiting the amount of boost I'm seeing from the boost controller?
@Screamin I think you just solved why I am not seeing over 11psi, I have a 4 bar MAP sensor, but the boost cut off is set to 11.5 psi. Would this be limiting the amount of boost I'm seeing from the boost controller?
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maddogtheta (02-06-2015)
02-18-2015, 08:52 PM
#236
Racer
Thread Starter
Update
pistons from bank 2 and 3 had cracked ring lands this second time around. No Skirts falling apart. I'll hopefully have some pictures of the damage tomorrow.
02-20-2015, 01:09 PM
#237
Racer
Thread Starter
Broken pistons
Here are pics of the pistons that have failed, three broken ringlands, one broken piston skirt.
First time my engine broke:
Cylinder 1 with the broken piston skirt
Cylinder 6 with broken ringland
Second time it broke on the last dyno run before I got it back after reaplacing the broken pistons with oem:
Cylinder 2 with broken ringland
Cylinder 3 with broken ringland
Pauter rods are going to be installed for added reliability
First time my engine broke:
Cylinder 1 with the broken piston skirt
Cylinder 6 with broken ringland
Second time it broke on the last dyno run before I got it back after reaplacing the broken pistons with oem:
Cylinder 2 with broken ringland
Cylinder 3 with broken ringland
Pauter rods are going to be installed for added reliability
02-27-2015, 11:13 AM
#239
Racer
Thread Starter
From what little time I had driving my TL around turbo'd and the way that the power came on gradually with the turbo mounted in the rear, I never had any issues with traction.
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6spd-GERCO (02-28-2015)
02-28-2015, 11:46 AM
#240
Burning Brakes
I ended up not getting the traction control installed. It was going to end up costing too much and from what I read about the TL's traction control it seemed like that system would be enough for the time being.
From what little time I had driving my TL around turbo'd and the way that the power came on gradually with the turbo mounted in the rear, I never had any issues with traction.
From what little time I had driving my TL around turbo'd and the way that the power came on gradually with the turbo mounted in the rear, I never had any issues with traction.
way to intrusive.