Rear mount turbo - Type S
01-06-2015, 12:11 PM
#122
Racer
Thread Starter
Update
Got the car back yesterday night, drove it home no realizing the oil pump stopped working and my oil was blowing out of the exhaust. So it's back at speedfactory and I'm waiting for more info. I also need to ask them about my tune since the knock control wasn't turned off and it apparently can add timing...
I don't have the dyno graphs yet, but it made 369 whp and I think 330 torque last night fighting with the knock control. I'm running 10lbs. of boost with ignition timing at 11.
I don't have the dyno graphs yet, but it made 369 whp and I think 330 torque last night fighting with the knock control. I'm running 10lbs. of boost with ignition timing at 11.
01-06-2015, 02:15 PM
#124
Racer
Thread Starter
Fuse blew for the turbo scavenge pump. I was an idiot for driving it as long as I did. They're cleaning the oil out of the parts and I'm having them wire up an led in the cabin to alert me of this issue in the future although I hope it never happens again. I'll post up dyno graphs shortly.
01-06-2015, 02:17 PM
#125
Has to be the oil scavenge pump. When it quits, oil will quit draining and seep thru the turbo seals, right out the exhaust since the turbo is at the exhaust.
Did they wire up an idiot light for the scavenge pump? I'd recommend that for a rear mount turbo.
Numbers are AWESOME I'd say for an unknown size turbo (I'm assuming something GT35R ish) and such low timing.
A JNR kit on here made about the same on 8psi, but known timing.
If they use a dyno jet, can you ask them for the dyno file? I'd love to be able to load it into WinPep.
Did they wire up an idiot light for the scavenge pump? I'd recommend that for a rear mount turbo.
Numbers are AWESOME I'd say for an unknown size turbo (I'm assuming something GT35R ish) and such low timing.
A JNR kit on here made about the same on 8psi, but known timing.
If they use a dyno jet, can you ask them for the dyno file? I'd love to be able to load it into WinPep.
01-06-2015, 02:28 PM
#126
Well I'm glad to hear nothing major is wrong, that must of scared the crap out of you, 369 and 330 nice, how did it feel ?
01-06-2015, 02:50 PM
#127
Racer
Thread Starter
The power is great, the tuner pulled back the timing to around 7 since they were hearing sounds, the strange thing is the knock sensor didn't pick anything up, but there was audible noise and the exhaust was kicking out carbon.
The detuned power is at 349 whp and 323 torque, it is still a night and day difference. I'm probably going to get some 100 octane and have them see how much power they can really get without worrying about detonation.
01-06-2015, 03:56 PM
#128
Racer
Thread Starter
dynos
Here are the dyno graphs. the smaller graphs underneath show boost.
max and detuned runs
Max, detuned and baseline. there was unfortunately no baseline torque because they couldn't get the dyno to pick up the engine rpm.
max and detuned runs
Max, detuned and baseline. there was unfortunately no baseline torque because they couldn't get the dyno to pick up the engine rpm.
01-06-2015, 06:06 PM
#130
send a copy of the Flashpro datalog and tune to Vit Viper he is the FlashPro master ask him to look at it, Contact Us
01-07-2015, 05:55 AM
#136
I know he has PCDs. I think a J pipe might help spool some. It looks like it doesn't hit full boost until 5000 rpms. I can't tell if that is because of it being rear mount or the size of the turbo influencing it. Perhaps a bit of both?
Maddog - do you have an electronic boost controller by chance? I wonder if it has a solenoid that is controlling boost until then or if it's manual and just takes that long to spool.
Maddog - do you have an electronic boost controller by chance? I wonder if it has a solenoid that is controlling boost until then or if it's manual and just takes that long to spool.
01-07-2015, 08:31 AM
#137
Racer
Thread Starter
I know he has PCDs. I think a J pipe might help spool some. It looks like it doesn't hit full boost until 5000 rpms. I can't tell if that is because of it being rear mount or the size of the turbo influencing it. Perhaps a bit of both?
Maddog - do you have an electronic boost controller by chance? I wonder if it has a solenoid that is controlling boost until then or if it's manual and just takes that long to spool.
Maddog - do you have an electronic boost controller by chance? I wonder if it has a solenoid that is controlling boost until then or if it's manual and just takes that long to spool.
01-07-2015, 12:50 PM
#138
Burning Brakes
Nice results! I wouldn't be to worried about getting to much more out of it at this time just enjoy driving it.
Just wondering, did you perform a compression or leakdown check prior to any of N/A or Turbo dyno runs?
The transient response time is mostly due to the rear mount setup and the amount of energy the exhaust stream has when it arrives at the turbine since it's only a .58 A/R turbine already. Getting there takes a bit but once your there, hang on!
Just wondering, did you perform a compression or leakdown check prior to any of N/A or Turbo dyno runs?
I know he has PCDs. I think a J pipe might help spool some. It looks like it doesn't hit full boost until 5000 rpms. I can't tell if that is because of it being rear mount or the size of the turbo influencing it. Perhaps a bit of both?
Maddog - do you have an electronic boost controller by chance? I wonder if it has a solenoid that is controlling boost until then or if it's manual and just takes that long to spool.
Maddog - do you have an electronic boost controller by chance? I wonder if it has a solenoid that is controlling boost until then or if it's manual and just takes that long to spool.
01-07-2015, 04:55 PM
#139
I would've thought a .58 A/R turbine would spool faster wouldn't it? The JNR came with a .82 A/R didn't it? Does the rear mount make that much of a difference in spool? I though that maybe the stock j-pipe and its terrible crush merge would contribute to some excessive backpressure perhaps.
01-07-2015, 05:03 PM
#140
Safety Car
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Jose, CA/ Charleston, WV
Posts: 4,045
Received 619 Likes
on
459 Posts
J&R turbo pipe only had to travel 2-3 feet. His rear mount has to travel 18-20 feet to spool the turbo. A lot of the hot gases already cooled by the time it reach the turbo. So there a lot of thermal and potential energy lost.
I would've thought a .58 A/R turbine would spool faster wouldn't it? The JNR came with a .82 A/R didn't it? Does the rear mount make that much of a difference in spool? I though that maybe the stock j-pipe and its terrible crush merge would contribute to some excessive backpressure perhaps.
01-07-2015, 07:44 PM
#141
Racer
Thread Starter
Got my car back after Speedfactory cleaned the oil out of the exhaust and charge piping. I also had them put a vibrant muffler on because it was too loud without it.
I drove it around more today and I love it! It doesn't feel like I'm waiting around at all for the turbo to spool up, the acceleration is great! It seems to me the boost is hitting 10lbs before 5k, but I can't just watch the rpms and boost gauge while driving on the road. Either way the car is a blast to drive! Definitely worth the wait!
I'm not sure but I bet if the turbo spooled up any faster I'd be having traction issues, since I've got studded tires on right now, I'm just going to enjoy the turbo as is and address any issues in the spring.
I also highly recommend Speedfactory racing for anyone in Washington that wants work done on their car. The guys there are awesome!
I drove it around more today and I love it! It doesn't feel like I'm waiting around at all for the turbo to spool up, the acceleration is great! It seems to me the boost is hitting 10lbs before 5k, but I can't just watch the rpms and boost gauge while driving on the road. Either way the car is a blast to drive! Definitely worth the wait!
I'm not sure but I bet if the turbo spooled up any faster I'd be having traction issues, since I've got studded tires on right now, I'm just going to enjoy the turbo as is and address any issues in the spring.
I also highly recommend Speedfactory racing for anyone in Washington that wants work done on their car. The guys there are awesome!
01-07-2015, 08:44 PM
#143
That's great to hear ^, all of the remote mounts I've seen have the entire exhaust to the turbo wrapped to keep the heat and energy in the exhaust this should make a big difference especially in this cold weather, we have a speed factory 4BAR map sensor on the TYPE-S
01-07-2015, 09:04 PM
#144
Racer
Thread Starter
about 9 all in
Speedfactory heat wrapped my exhaust to the turbo and it allowed the turbo to gain about 1lb of boost after the fact.
They stuck a 4BAR map sensor on mine as well.
They stuck a 4BAR map sensor on mine as well.
01-07-2015, 09:10 PM
#145
I'm sorry man but you should be able to run more timing than just 7 degrees. I was running 12 degrees on 13.8lbs of boost according to a previous datalog I read a few nights ago. If they're pulling back that much because of noise and carbon, then something else is going on. Do you have any datalogs you can post from the dyno pull that day? Also, if the knock counts weren't increasing when the noise was heard, then maybe it's not detonation OR the knock sensitivity was modified. Is the engine running high temps after a few runs on boost? Lastly, you should consider the suggestion above on wrapping the exhaust tubing to increase response from the turbo. If that doesn't help, runner slightly leaner AFR's can also help a bit as this will increase EGT allowing more energy in the form of heat to spool things quicker.
01-07-2015, 09:46 PM
#146
Racer
Thread Starter
I'm sorry man but you should be able to run more timing than just 7 degrees. I was running 12 degrees on 13.8lbs of boost according to a previous datalog I read a few nights ago. If they're pulling back that much because of noise and carbon, then something else is going on. Do you have any datalogs you can post from the dyno pull that day? Also, if the knock counts weren't increasing when the noise was heard, then maybe it's not detonation OR the knock sensitivity was modified. Is the engine running high temps after a few runs on boost? Lastly, you should consider the suggestion above on wrapping the exhaust tubing to increase response from the turbo. If that doesn't help, runner slightly leaner AFR's can also help a bit as this will increase EGT allowing more energy in the form of heat to spool things quicker.
I agree that it should handle more timing. I'm planning on addressing that issue in the near future. James, the tuner at Speedfactory, seemed to think the timing can be increased but because of the sound and the lack of tuning on the TL he wanted to be conservative and not blow up the engine before I got to drive it for awhile. For now I want to enjoy the turbo goodness since I've been driving an odyssey for the past month.
I'm planning on filling up with some 100 octane fuel and having him see the full potential of the engine without having to worry about detonation. After that I'll probably have him increase the timing.
I'll have to check my flashpro to see if the data logs are on it.
The following users liked this post:
6spd-GERCO (01-07-2015)
01-07-2015, 10:54 PM
#147
Burning Brakes
I would've thought a .58 A/R turbine would spool faster wouldn't it? The JNR came with a .82 A/R didn't it? Does the rear mount make that much of a difference in spool? I though that maybe the stock j-pipe and its terrible crush merge would contribute to some excessive backpressure perhaps.
01-07-2015, 11:26 PM
#148
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
The .58 A/R for the turbine does help but since the exhaust path prior to the turbine is long the thermal energy is reduced so spool time is affected. This turbo set-up doesn't have a sudden spike in torque like the traditional turbo set-ups so this seems like it would help out with traction. Op's dyno graph reminds me of a Rotrex dyno graph unitl full boost is reached, acting like a big N/A motor.
The following users liked this post:
6spd-GERCO (01-09-2015)
01-08-2015, 10:20 AM
#150
When I am tuning I run across noisy motors all the time. Loose valvetrain or even just a loose set up motor to run big 40+ pounds of boost has cause crazy havoc on knock sensors or when I am wearing my detonation cans I start to hear all sorts of noises.
This is how I deal with it when people are paying for my time and my reputation is on the line. The solution is so simple, but takes some time.
Set the timing at a very low conservative setting. (you have already done that)
Go stick some 110 octane in the motor. No do a pull. Do you still hear the same noise? ok then its not detonation. IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT in the set-up and ability of the knock sensors on the car you are tuning then set the knock threshold based now on the 110 octane to ignore that level.
Meaning if its a non-pizzo electric knock sensor than the value will be between a 0-5 v output. Lets say its putting on 3v on the 110 octane and pulling timing than ignore everything under 3v.
Now go back to tuning the car on 91 pump.
PROBLEMS WITH THIS METHOD: You are now making the knock sensor pretty def since the motor is so loud. Because of this I strongly recommend not relying on the motor to detetect minor knock but instead will only detect some pretty major knock. This is not an ideal situation so the tune must be spot on. I then put the cars back on the dyno and find MBT while listening for knock and then will back the car 2 degrees off of MBT just to be safe on such a noisy motor.
Hope that helps
This is how I deal with it when people are paying for my time and my reputation is on the line. The solution is so simple, but takes some time.
Set the timing at a very low conservative setting. (you have already done that)
Go stick some 110 octane in the motor. No do a pull. Do you still hear the same noise? ok then its not detonation. IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT in the set-up and ability of the knock sensors on the car you are tuning then set the knock threshold based now on the 110 octane to ignore that level.
Meaning if its a non-pizzo electric knock sensor than the value will be between a 0-5 v output. Lets say its putting on 3v on the 110 octane and pulling timing than ignore everything under 3v.
Now go back to tuning the car on 91 pump.
PROBLEMS WITH THIS METHOD: You are now making the knock sensor pretty def since the motor is so loud. Because of this I strongly recommend not relying on the motor to detetect minor knock but instead will only detect some pretty major knock. This is not an ideal situation so the tune must be spot on. I then put the cars back on the dyno and find MBT while listening for knock and then will back the car 2 degrees off of MBT just to be safe on such a noisy motor.
Hope that helps
01-08-2015, 10:54 AM
#151
Racer
Thread Starter
When I am tuning I run across noisy motors all the time. Loose valvetrain or even just a loose set up motor to run big 40+ pounds of boost has cause crazy havoc on knock sensors or when I am wearing my detonation cans I start to hear all sorts of noises.
This is how I deal with it when people are paying for my time and my reputation is on the line. The solution is so simple, but takes some time.
Set the timing at a very low conservative setting. (you have already done that)
Go stick some 110 octane in the motor. No do a pull. Do you still hear the same noise? ok then its not detonation. IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT in the set-up and ability of the knock sensors on the car you are tuning then set the knock threshold based now on the 110 octane to ignore that level.
Meaning if its a non-pizzo electric knock sensor than the value will be between a 0-5 v output. Lets say its putting on 3v on the 110 octane and pulling timing than ignore everything under 3v.
Now go back to tuning the car on 91 pump.
PROBLEMS WITH THIS METHOD: You are now making the knock sensor pretty def since the motor is so loud. Because of this I strongly recommend not relying on the motor to detetect minor knock but instead will only detect some pretty major knock. This is not an ideal situation so the tune must be spot on. I then put the cars back on the dyno and find MBT while listening for knock and then will back the car 2 degrees off of MBT just to be safe on such a noisy motor.
Hope that helps
This is how I deal with it when people are paying for my time and my reputation is on the line. The solution is so simple, but takes some time.
Set the timing at a very low conservative setting. (you have already done that)
Go stick some 110 octane in the motor. No do a pull. Do you still hear the same noise? ok then its not detonation. IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT in the set-up and ability of the knock sensors on the car you are tuning then set the knock threshold based now on the 110 octane to ignore that level.
Meaning if its a non-pizzo electric knock sensor than the value will be between a 0-5 v output. Lets say its putting on 3v on the 110 octane and pulling timing than ignore everything under 3v.
Now go back to tuning the car on 91 pump.
PROBLEMS WITH THIS METHOD: You are now making the knock sensor pretty def since the motor is so loud. Because of this I strongly recommend not relying on the motor to detetect minor knock but instead will only detect some pretty major knock. This is not an ideal situation so the tune must be spot on. I then put the cars back on the dyno and find MBT while listening for knock and then will back the car 2 degrees off of MBT just to be safe on such a noisy motor.
Hope that helps
Thanks flexer!
01-09-2015, 12:52 PM
#152
Burning Brakes
The exhaust is heat wrapped.
I agree that it should handle more timing. I'm planning on addressing that issue in the near future. James, the tuner at Speedfactory, seemed to think the timing can be increased but because of the sound and the lack of tuning on the TL he wanted to be conservative and not blow up the engine before I got to drive it for awhile. For now I want to enjoy the turbo goodness since I've been driving an odyssey for the past month.
I'm planning on filling up with some 100 octane fuel and having him see the full potential of the engine without having to worry about detonation. After that I'll probably have him increase the timing.
I'll have to check my flashpro to see if the data logs are on it.
I agree that it should handle more timing. I'm planning on addressing that issue in the near future. James, the tuner at Speedfactory, seemed to think the timing can be increased but because of the sound and the lack of tuning on the TL he wanted to be conservative and not blow up the engine before I got to drive it for awhile. For now I want to enjoy the turbo goodness since I've been driving an odyssey for the past month.
I'm planning on filling up with some 100 octane fuel and having him see the full potential of the engine without having to worry about detonation. After that I'll probably have him increase the timing.
I'll have to check my flashpro to see if the data logs are on it.
, you've spent so much time and money it's finally time to just enjoy it and crank up the boost later on. Plan on posting any vids? Very curious to see what it sounds like!Your Rotrex TL is awesome and when it's twincharged it's going be nuts! Nice to hear good things about the Rotrex kit since it get bashed from the turbo guys. I wish that you didn't have to get rid of get rid of the A/C to run your set-up or even the B series set-up. It's hard commit to no A/C.
The following 3 users liked this post by 6spd-GERCO:
01-09-2015, 09:10 PM
#153
Racer
Thread Starter
Son of a B****!!!
so... I got a CEL today, cylinder 6 was misfiring. I took it back to SpeedFactory and apparently the ringland is cracked... 
It was a fun 18 hours of having my turbo'd TL working perfectly... Shoulda got a water/meth injector I guess. I'll be getting one installed while the engine is getting fixed.
It was a fun 18 hours of having my turbo'd TL working perfectly... Shoulda got a water/meth injector I guess. I'll be getting one installed while the engine is getting fixed.
Last edited by maddogtheta; 01-09-2015 at 09:11 PM. Reason: added some text
01-09-2015, 09:36 PM
#154
Crap sorry to hear this, kind of makes me worry we are still tuning with vit, we are at 4LBS and about 10 data logs taking it slow and easy
01-09-2015, 10:11 PM
#155
so... I got a CEL today, cylinder 6 was misfiring. I took it back to SpeedFactory and apparently the ringland is cracked...
It was a fun 18 hours of having my turbo'd TL working perfectly... Shoulda got a water/meth injector I guess. I'll be getting one installed while the engine is getting fixed.
It was a fun 18 hours of having my turbo'd TL working perfectly... Shoulda got a water/meth injector I guess. I'll be getting one installed while the engine is getting fixed.
I didn't have misfires but, think the ring lands were cracked on cyl #5 after some high speed wheel spin. It might be worth it to look at doing low comp pistons on stock rods if you have to rebuild the engine.
01-09-2015, 11:02 PM
#156
so... I got a CEL today, cylinder 6 was misfiring. I took it back to SpeedFactory and apparently the ringland is cracked...
It was a fun 18 hours of having my turbo'd TL working perfectly... Shoulda got a water/meth injector I guess. I'll be getting one installed while the engine is getting fixed.
It was a fun 18 hours of having my turbo'd TL working perfectly... Shoulda got a water/meth injector I guess. I'll be getting one installed while the engine is getting fixed.
he takes his sweet time making sure that everything is perfect. he is pretty quick about getting back to you to.
do you know if the block was damaged at all?
01-09-2015, 11:51 PM
#157
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
Take this opportunity to do aftermarket pistons. If you need a wiseco part number it is : K568M89 and works with the k24 as well as 89mm bore 3.2 and 3.5litre jseries engines. This gives a CR of 9.5:1 on a j32a3.
Last edited by gerzand; 01-09-2015 at 11:54 PM.
01-10-2015, 01:11 AM
#158
but really i dont even know the formulas to figure something like that out
does wiseco make anything that would give us a close to stock compression?
01-10-2015, 06:37 AM
#159
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
J32A3
J35A8
Last edited by gerzand; 01-10-2015 at 06:40 AM.
The following users liked this post:
UTAH Type-S (01-10-2015)
01-10-2015, 08:52 AM
#160
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for all off the helpful info and support.
Those wiseco pistons definitely seem like a smart way to go. I'll have to see if I have the budget for them.
I'll keep you guys updated on what happens.
Those wiseco pistons definitely seem like a smart way to go. I'll have to see if I have the budget for them.
I'll keep you guys updated on what happens.