FancyHonda

One of the reasons I purchased my TL-S manual was the excellent experience I've had in the past with the feel of manual transmission Hondas. They have very direct feeling shifters, usually perfectly weighted flywheels for precise rev-matching, and great clutch feel. I've owned two EP3 Civics because I love how fun and rewarding they are to shift and rev-match.

The TL, though, is not quite on the same level for me in stock form. It has a few of things that I absolutely despise in manual cars -
1. Heavy dual mass flywheel
2. Self-adjusting clutch
3. Clutch hydraulics dampening valves
4. Rev-hang

With that in mind, I set out to upgrade and change as many of these elements of the car as I could, because I thought that underneath these things the TL could be just as good as some of the older, less dampened Hondas.

Here-in this thread I intend to review these various upgrades and my experience with them. I also encourage others to quote or highlight if you have done similar mods and your experience with them.
One thing to keep in mind is take these reviews (mine or anyone else's) with a grain of salt. A lot of these things are subjective and just like suspension, or what have you, what you and I find unacceptable may differ.

Clutch Slave Cylinder

Slave Cylinder Delete Mod
The one that everyone knows, the one that everyone does. Yes, it's very easy to do and definitely helps make shifting feel better by giving you more direct control of the clutch. In terms of downsides I definitely haven't experienced any on the factory clutch and flywheel or my aftermarket setup. Highly recommend this to anyone who has a manual TL. Not that much to say here that hasn't been said 800,000 times previously.

Clutch Master Cylinder

OEM-style Master Cylinder without Delay Valve
With how much the slave cylinder mod is talked about, I was really surprised to see very little information on here about the stock master cylinder in our cars. It too, has a restrictor valve built into to slow clutch engagement, but unlike the slave cylinder, it cannot simply be removed and requires replacing the entire master cylinder. The particular master cylinder I chose was the EM2-spec Master cylinder sold by Marcus at Heeltoe, but I'm quite sure almost any of the alternatives (K-tuned, etc) are similar. This offers even more direct control of your clutches engagement, but unfortunately has a downside. The stock masters dampening valve (A triangle shaped bit built into it) does in fact handle some of the NVH produced by the system and removing it will result in you feeling feedback in your clutch pedal. It is not a big increase, but I noticed that the pedal had more feedback even on the OEM flywheel and clutch setup. With that being said, I still think this is a trade-off that many would take. If you can tolerate the vibration from stiffer engine mounts, this will seem inconsequential by comparison.

Transmission Fluid

Redline MTL
Another of the very commonly discussed changes for the betterment of your driving experience, the transmission fluid you choose. I know that a great many of you swear by the GM Synchromesh w/ Friction Modifier, but I have always religiously used Redline products in my cars, BMW, Honda, or otherwise. It made my TL shift noticeably better and fixed a slightly stiff 4th gear I was experiencing. Perhaps when my next manual transmission fluid change comes around I will try the forums #1 fluid, but until then I am very happy and recommend others try Redline MTL if you have the urge to try something otherwise.

Shifter Bushings

Hybrid Racing Shifter Bushings
These bushings replace the two spherical bushings where the shifter cables attach to the transmission. The OEM bushings are mostly (or entirely?) rubber and often worn out unless they have been replaced previously. This is another easy money type of upgrade without a downside. Replacing the factory bushings with these or any of the similar solid style bushings will help reduce the slop you feel in your shifter and produce crisper shifts. I picked the Hybrid Racing shifter bushings, but if you have a look at the alternatives I wager any of them (Acuity, K-Tuned, Corsport) are a great choice.

Flywheel

AASCO Single Mass Flywheel
Finally, onto the good stuff. I have such a deep, irrational dislike for dual mass flywheels. They're so heavy they feel like the car takes one entire century to rev for a downshift, and even with a good clutch they oft feel vague. My car ended up needing a clutch in early 2020 and so I bit the bullet and ordered XLR8s 'Daily' Single Mass Flywheel conversion kit (spoiler for the next section). Their kit features the AASCO Flywheel, a 14lbs unit made from billet aluminum. I fucking love this flywheel. In my opinion it is the perfect weight for a street driven sedan of the TL's size. The reduced weight of the flywheel makes a noticeable impact on acceleration in the lower gears (mostly 1st, 2nd and 3rd), and makes rev-matching an absolute joy. Aside from the weight, being a single, solid piece means that clutch engagement is a lot more predictable and direct. In terms of downsides, the first is that having less rotating mass on the end of the engine will make starting from a stop a bit more difficult. It took some time, but I didn't find it too hard to adapt. To make an analogous comparison, the lighter flywheel reminds me of driving a car with a smaller 4 cylinder engine in terms of launching, requiring more RPM and a bit more clutch riding to maintain a smooth, stumble free launch. Removing the dual mass from the drivetrain can also have a cascading effect in terms of how the car drives. After switching I was so much more aware of loose or worn elements throughout my car, like engine mounts, because the dual mass was dampening some of those forces from the engine. If I have any advice for anyone considering converting, it would be to be prepared to make other changes to your car to better accommodate the new flywheel as it drastically changes the way your car drives.

Clutch

XLR8 'Daily' Clutch
This is the clutch that's included in the XLR8 'Daily' Kit, paired with the AASCO flywheel from XLR8. The clutch is a South Bend and has an organic full face disc and a sprung hub. The pressure plate is a very 'performance' red and is beautifully not self adjusting. I read a few reviews of this clutch here on the forum before purchasing the kit, but it has not quite lived up to my high expectations. If you were to look at it in terms of aftermarket clutches, it is indeed very, very smooth, but if you compare it to the stock clutch it is not as smooth. Is this an unrealistic expectation? Probably. It is not hard to drive the car smoothly and avoid chatter, but if you slip the clutch with too little RPM it will gently sing you the song of it's people (chatter). In combination with the flywheel it produces very predictable and direct engagement. The pedal effort of this setup is absolutely superb coming in at very close or slightly easier than the stock clutch. I've heard that the Spec and Clutchmasters clutches that are appropriate for single mass applications are not any better, or maybe worse? I certainly wouldn't trade my clutch for one of them, but there is a clutch out there I would. There is a legendary forum user out there by the name of 'Euro-R Spec TSX' or Eric, whom wrote a very long and detailed thread on flywheels and clutches for our cars, and even discussed some details with me via private message. His take is that the reason these aftermarket clutches chatter sometimes in comparison to the stock clutch is because they are missing marcel springs, basically a wavy spring in the disc that helps smooth out clutch engagement. He makes a custom clutch disc for the AASCO flywheel and our cars that actually has them and is purported to be much smoother. I want to replace my clutch with one of these, but ultimately the XLR8 clutch really isn't that bad, and so I will only do so once it needs to be replaced.

Engine Mounts

OEM Engine Mounts
So, for this I went with all OEM engine mounts. There are 6 in total - Front, Side, Rear, and then three on the transmission side. I highly recommend you replace these engine mounts on your car if you care about how well it drives and how well it shifts, it genuinely makes a huge difference. The reason I chose OEM mounts is that most of the times I've ridden in cars with solid mounts, I haven't liked the increased vibration transmitted to the cabin. For those out there with a stronger stomach than I, by all means go with one of the aftermarket choices available for stiffer mounts. I think the only mounts I would consider not replacing with OEM if I could do it again are some of the lower transmission side mounts - one or two of these has quite a lot of play in stock form and would probably be worthy of an upgrade for a trade-off of the increased NVH.

Engine Torque Damper

XLR8 Engine Torque Damper
So despite going with the OEM engine mounts, I decided to upgrade the engine torque damper with a stiffer upgrade as a nice middle ground to try and retain as much comfort as possible. I'm happy to report that the stiffer ETD does mark a definite improvement in limiting the engine from moving around and helps make everything feel solid and connected. It was the last piece of the puzzle mechanically for my new setup feeling 'right' in my mind. It does, however, introduce some NVH into the cabin in the form of vibration. If the engine or clutch is producing some sort of vibration, the ETD is a direct connection to the driver's side of the cabin where it can transmit that to the driver. I wager on a car with a dual mass the NVH would probably be even less, and so I have little guilt in recommending one of these as an upgrade regardless of what flywheel your car has. For reference I used the softer pair of bushings that come with the XLR8 ETD.

Short Shifter

CT Engineering Short Shifter
This is the only thing on this list that I ended up not leaving installed on my car. I drove with it installed for roughly 15 minutes before removing it. I often struggle with my hand slipping off the shift knob on my car, and the hardest shift for me to get right on my car is 2nd to 3rd. The big trade off with a short shifter is the increased physical effort required for each shift, and this made 2nd to 3rd rather unpleasant for me. Another part of this puzzle is that I'm very used to older BMWs with excessively long shift throws. After I removed the short shifter I realized I was already absolutely happy with the stock throw of the TL. Some honorable mentions in this category go out to the shifter assemblies that you can buy that are varying levels of adjustable, like the K-Tuned shifter or Hybrid Racing shifter.

Shift Knob

Superklasse Runabout Shift Knob
Many of the aftermarket knobs that I see for Hondas are metal, and I'm just not a very big fan of a metal shift knob. As I mentioned above, my hand is prone to slipping off the shifter, and metal would likely makes this worse. My original plan for a shiftknob was a Flossy Grip Rod in white with a Spoon font pattern etched on top, but my experience with them as a business was a bit underwhelming, so I went elsewhere. The knob I ended up choosing is one modelled on the Supra/MR2 shift knob of the 90s weighted to perfection at 350 grams. This is really a dealers choice kind of mod, I'm sure the Fastline Maven counter-sunk shift knob I've seen popular here is also absolutely lovely.

ECU Tuning

Hondata FlashPro
This is, without a doubt, my favorite mod for my car. I made two changes on my car immediately - turning off the rev-hang behavior/reducing the fuel cut delay to banish rev-hang to the shadow realm, and increasing the idle speed to 900 RPM. These two changes on their own improved how the car drives, but in combination with the flywheel, and the other mods, the car really came together. You can actually shift the car at a natural cadence with the rev-hang removed. I'm barely scratching the surface of what this tuner is capable of, but I still love it as a drivetrain mod. Highly recommended if you can swallow the purchase price.


Thanks for reading the ridiculous review of the drivetrain mods I've done to my car. I'm very happy to say that with a few changes the TL did indeed meet the golden standard of shifting that I expect from Honda.

hondarcb

Nice review. Thanks for sharing.

Legend2TL

Agree, nice detailed writeup

csmeance

IMO add something about the brakes! Factory brakes are ok, but warp rotors and dust a ton on the TL-S! I'm thinking NDX Blue pads once I get the TL-S restored properly.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Great review! I will definitely reference this when I double check my list of mods.

Marsalis Simms

Thank you for this write-up. Have the same car and also hate all of the cons listed above lol have found this car difficult to "tame" due to some of it's drawbacks from the factory. I will have to give this a try and see how it works! Going for the flywheel and clutch setup first

FancyHonda

Hey guys. Recorded a short video driving the car, talking more about how the car drives after all these changes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPw7rxbxvTw&ab_channel=DanWright

Scottwax

Well written and detailed post! On the subject of OEM mounts, the biggest issue is they tear. Just by changing the passenger side mount to an Innovative urethane mount, I haven't torn one since. And the minimal vibration is only noticeable in drive with the a/c on if your hands are on the steering wheel. With a manual transmission car it would probably be less noticeable. Something to consider if you've had issues with them going bad.

nist7

I assume this is a super easy 'mod' to do once you get the Hondata FlashPro and plug it in? I was looking on their site and it looks like it's as simply as navigating to the appropriate sub-menu/section and do a few clicks to get rid of the rev-hang and increase the idle speed a bit?

FancyHonda

Yes! It is very easy to make these changes.

Idle speed is just a table that sets the idle based on coolant temp.


The generic rev-hang behavior setting is just a check mark. This is what makes your RPM climb a little bit when throttle is initially released. I dug around some of the very old Hondata forums and I believe this setting was developed by the request of some of the fellows doing tuning for our cars.



Then the individual gear fuel cut delay is in the fuel section, shown here



These screenshots were all taken from the current map I have loaded onto my car, including that little driving video.

The basic steps are download the software, pair your flashpro to your car with the VIN, edit a calibration to your liking, upload it to the flashpro, and then plug it into your car via the OBD2 port and hit the 'program' button. As a little note, whenever you flash your ECU you need to do the idle relearn procedure.

This thread also covered some of these same points and a few other more advanced things I was looking into. I am definitely not a tuning expert by any means though, and you can see I'm looking for a little help/guidance.

Marsalis Simms

Just installed the clutch master cylinder mentioned in the initial post; great swap for the price. The feedback is noticeable but it doesn't bother me any personally. Can definitely feel a more consistent bite point and more ease with shifting at a quicker pace.

Bense

Changing your gearing makes more of a difference

Euro-R_Spec_TSX

Seeing as I'm a legendary forum user, I feel compelled to add some comments.

Trans Fluid. I was using Redline MTL previously but I'm using Motul Gear Competition now. It's better.



Engine Mounts. Since engine mounts made with urethane are a joke (urethane is NOT an isolation material),
I designed a very nice set of mounts using natural rubber. Approximately 33% stiffer than stock mounts. The
engine vibration is noticeable now, but not at all objectionable. The powertrain movement is much better
controlled now. A very nice improvement overall.

FancyHonda

Wow, those engine mounts look great!

I wish there were more appealing choices available for engine mounts to reduce movement. Most of the aftermarket choices for our cars seem like they would be harsh.

Euro-R_Spec_TSX

Any engine mount made with urethane will be harsh. You won't see urethane used for any OEM engine mounts.
Aftermarket companies use it because it's cheap and easy to source. I have some parts on order for a few sets
of engine mounts. PM if interested in a set.

Marsalis Simms

Just PM'd

Locustjones

Thanks for posting and just saw the video review too.
So you did all these mods more or less 'together" ?
What's been your more long term impressions now. Would you make any tweaks to the list since then?

FancyHonda

Hey there!

I definitely did them in steps. I did the fluid and bushings almost immediately after buying the car, then most other parts followed after I replaced the clutch and flywheel when my stock clutch gave up the ghost and started slipping.

After dailying the car for another 30,000km after most of these changes, I'm glad I chose what I did, but I don't think I'd recommend it to everyone. There are always compromises to mods. The clutch and flywheel definitely take a hit in terms of NVH and smoothness, and to feel 'right' to me, a great deal of the car needed to be stiffened after swapping out the dual mass. That being said, the car is SO much more direct and satisfying to shift and drive.

I was actually planning on posting an update to this thread at some point because I have either already added more to the car, or plan to do so in the near future -

I bought some beautiful custom engine mounts from 'The Legendary Forum User', Eric, or Euro-r_Spec_TSX because I would like to cut down on back and forth engine movement the stock engine mounts allow. If I could go back and buy these instead of the OEM ones I bought from the dealership I absolutely would.

I've completely replaced my worn OEM suspension with aftermarket springs and shocks. I posted a thread when I put these things together (and goofed) and unfortunately I have a lot more to say about my experience.

At some point I intend to have the car properly tuned with my Hondata by somebody locally for drivability improvements.

Locustjones

Definitely do a follow up with it all and include your suspensions finds and so forth - good start. Do include the other mods as they all seems to fit together on making it feel the way you'd want it to.

I'm debating the clutch myself as well - doing my searches here - trying to find the pros/cons of the various clutch kits with lighter fly wheel but intended more as a daily driver.

Good to hear you did it in steps. I did tran fluid and hybrid racing shifter bushings and those helped some. I may do the slave Cyl delete and Master Cyl (w/o delay valve) with the stock clutch and see how that goes before jumping to all new clutch/flywheel - cost and all.

FancyHonda

Hey guys,

Since my original post I've made a few more modifications to my car, so here I am to post another wall of text.

Suspension

Koni Yellow shocks / H&R Sport springs
When I bought my car it was on Function Form Type 1 coil-overs, and I really, really did not like them. The ride was offensively stiff, and even after adjusting them to the top of their height adjustment car was still way too low. I reverted the car back to a stock suspension setup (out of a base manual TL) just to get the car off the ground. It was clear to me that this stock setup was quite tired and also a bit too soft for my taste, the car pitched back and forth quite dramatically off and on throttle, and the other changes to my car didn't help (flywheel, lack of damping, etc). So I set out to pick a suspension setup that was one, brand new, and two, the right balance of stiff/comfortable. As I've seen many, many times on the forums here, most people recommend just going coil-overs. It gives you the ride height adjustability, lowering, and is actually cheaper than buying a shock and spring combo as I inevitably did. These are compelling points for a lot of people, and I respect that, but I can't stand the stiff ride quality of coil-overs and don't really care that much about how low my car is or adjustability. I knew I would be the most happy with a set of springs and shocks, so that's what I went with.

I eventually decided on a set of Koni Yellows and H&R Sport springs, specifically the 50106 part number, which is the sport variant for the Type-S specifically. Additionally I bought all new top hats, mounts, bushings, dust boots, bump stops, etc. The entire assemblies top to bottom are brand new.



Stock ride height:





H&R Sports / Konis





For quick reference - my perch settings for the Konis are the higher of the two in the front and the lowest of the three in the rear. I spent a lot of time with my rear seats removed while I was playing with the damping settings, and settled on +2 in the front and +1.5 in the rear (they go from 0 to +4).

In terms of ride height I'm really happy. I think it's really even front to back and is a nice mild lowering that hasn't comprised the cars usability. No scraping or rubbing. The ride quality I initially found a little bit too stiff for my taste, but I have gotten used to it. I think this speaks more to how sensitive I am to ride comfort, but I want to highlight that these springs are not as comfortable as stock. I think many would say it's pretty much the perfect stiffness for a sporty daily, but if you have a sensitive stomach like me I'd maybe consider something even milder. I mainly wanted additional stiffness to combat the back and forward pitch sort of sensation that softer or worn suspension has and it definitely delivers in that regard. Car feels firm and composed.

Unfortunately I had some quality control issues with my Koni yellow shocks. The damping adjustment on my left front shock was completely seized out of the box. I had to pay Koni 50% for an advanced replacement which I have yet to receive a refund for, and also my time to remove and reassemble the faulty shock. After I replaced the faulty left front, I attempted to adjust my shocks damping only to find that now my right rear shock was also seized. Before going through a warranty claim, I attempted to un-stick this shock by removing it from the car and an attempting to adjust it - the leverage available with the shock installed is not great. Luckily, I was able to unstick the right rear shock relatively easily once I removed it from the car, but it was more time and effort to remove it again.

Exhaust

Rear muffler delete
Story time. I bought my car with an obnoxious setup which was basically cats and one aftermarket resonator and that's it. Lots of drone and quite unpleasant. I found a local fellow with a nice original OEM TL-S exhaust for reasonable $$ and installed that. Unfortunately my car underwent some Unauthorized exhaust modification in 2020 while parked in my underground parking lot which resulted in most of the system being replaced with brand new OEM bits. Not the easiest or most cost effective solution to what happened, but I'm a little crazy about stuff like this if you couldn't tell already. One side effect of having the exhaust replaced was that now my rear muffler tips were way out of alignment; they looked absolutely awful. The day I drove my TL sans third cat made me miss having some sort of noise from the exhaust and so I seized the opportunity of the tips of my new exhaust being miss aligned to have an exhaust shop one, relalign the tips, and two, delete the rear mufflers. I had never heard one of our cars with just the rear muffler deleted, but it had been a happy medium for me personally on a lot of my previous cars. I'm extremely happy with how it turned out, my exhaust tips don't look like dog shit anymore, and the car has a subtle, appropriate amount of noise. I've had friends compare it to the volume of a stock E46 M3, but I think it's slightly louder than that.



Crooked tips



After the rear muffler delete



Shift knob

Shift Solutions SB Series (SS 530G)
I have since swapped to a different shift knob as well since my original post. I generally don't like metal knobs as I previously mentioned, but I ended up getting one with a rough powder coated texture on it, which solved the things I usually don't like about metal knobs. The main reasons I ended up switching were the extra weight, the shape, and the texture. I like this new knob a lot more than I expected I would, and have had a few other people drive the car and express the same sentiment. Currently I'm still running the stock shift boot and little silver ring so it looks a bit goofy, but I intend to get a new shift boot from redline in the future and I think it will really 'pop' in the interior.



Engine Mounts

Brockway Engineering M100 Engine Mounts
Ohhh boy. After replacing the suspension in my car with a newer, stiffer setup, I was chasing that improved feeling 'high' and ordered a set of Eric's absolutely beautiful mounts that he posted in this thread. Not only are they absolutely gorgeous, I can confirm they also do what they promise to do - greatly reduce engine movement with a minimal hit to NVH and vibration. I absolutely love these mounts, and don't think I can say enough good things about them, or the dude who made them. My setup is now these mounts for the front and rear, OEM for the side and trans mounts, and an XLR8 ETD. If you have an aftermarket clutch/flywheel setup or intend to get one I highly recommend getting stiffer aftermarket engine mounts, it really make a monumental difference. If you want the best mounts available for our cars, these are it.
















I still have some things I intend to sort out in 2022:
- New shift boot from Redline Goods
- An upgrade for my lower control arm bushings. If only someone could design a hybrid spherical bushing for them..
- A proper tune using my Hondata. I have resolved to find someone local who would be willing to tune my car for drivability.


As always, if you've read this far, thanks for reading!

hondarcb

I’d reach out to Chris at KingPin Machine for bushings. He makes the highest quality sphericals for road and drag race Hondas out there. He also does custom stuff. www.kingpinmachine.com. Also IG and FB.

nist7

@FancyHonda

Thanks for this! I've been looking for a leather knob and this looks like a great option.

Does the standard thread pitch M12 x 1.25 work for the 3G TL?

zeta

iTrader: (1)

^
Hopefully he also can post a picture, with the boot, when it was installed in his TL?

Bense

Honda shift knobs are M10x1.5.