anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

He's actually claiming a 39 hp increase from just a tune. I know the punctuation isn't there, but re-read the post carefully.

NAiL05

Looks nice. I have been thinkin about doing this...after all I can always borrow my friends welder.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

OP since I think ur on li id love to meet up and see what the deal really is

Opel

261 whp is high and for anyone to believe that, they also have to believe that there was only 25 hp loss through the drivetrain...
Now seriously, lets get real...

This right off indicates the dyno is off to begin with...which only results to more off numbers as mods progress... so if someone like the op says..that after an intake and a non-power gaining exhaust mod, power bumped to 287 its ridiculous.

I say this again and again...the numbers of some dyno you strap your car to, do not mean or show the actual true power the car is putting down to the wheels. Get this through your head people!

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

I think you are the only one on this forum that I 100% always agree with and learned from the most. This car makes what 286 stock? Loss of drive terrain at 20% would be around 230 WHP. This car does not make 260WHP stock.

Also I am sorry, the tuner you went to is great/excellent but not "the best" around. No one is the best or he would be VERY well know, tuners are only good at what they do and some are better then others. I guarantee and will bet a free pair of custom tail lights work that if you went to 3 different DYNO places, all numbers will be off and you did not make 39 HP on a stock engine with an intake/exhaust. Sometimes the truth hurts and I don't want to lie to you. I myself was VERY upset when I traded in Xs products for Ys because it was said to make better gains but actually hurt HP. I am not going to say who and what because that would be wrong of me and the parts may or may not even have to do with TLs, I am just saying.

I remember reading about an exhaust that was coming out and the DYNO sheet was AVG HP and someone thought the exhaust would yield 50 hp and he would be as fast as a S/Cd TL. I once won $100 off of a kid that said his car runs 13.4 and he was VERY wrong. You know what he was so confident about? He used one of those GPS trackers that said his 1/4 and it came out to be 13.4 and he swore his car would run that at the track. Same things with the tracks:
What were the conditions?
What tires were used?
How was the 60'?

There are SO MANY CONDITIONS TO EVERYTHING!!!

I love the idea of making your own PCDs because companies bank off of cheap parts, BUTTTT their prices are so high because they did all of the research, took there time to make it right or just stole the ideas from someone who did the R&D.

If you are staying NA I would stick with a smaller size. Please guys:
-Intakes makes almost ZERO HP gains
-TBS actually decreases HP
-All exhausts make almost nothing in gains
-All J pipes are the same gains (XLR8,ATLP,RICHIE V3,PAUL NVA-AV6)
-Deleting the third cat (race pipe) gives you almost 1WHP, if not anything.
-UN-O pulley just frees up HP, it doesn't create more. It makes the engine rev quicker.
-Stickers on the other hand create 4.5 WHP each.
-True dual or quad exhausts do not yield more HP than a comp-tech, tenabe or so on.

Just because a company/Person put up a DYNO sheet doesn't mean its "the best" or "the fastest".
-What car was it done on? 7TH GEN accord or TL?
-What were the conditions?
-What kind of Dyno was used?
-Was it Manual or Auto?
-Was the car boosted or NA?
-What gear was used?
-What kind of gas was used?
-How well do you take care of your car?
-What size rims are you running?
-What were the complementary Mods?
- and so on...

Best bang for the buck would be the PCDs and J-PIPE hands down.

Sonnick

^^ I will agree with almost everything you said....but "all exhausts make almost nothing in gains?" Did I hear that right? See the sticky thread with a basline dyno and an I/E dyno. The gains were very impressive, over 20whp. And we all know intakes barely make any power on these motors, it's the exhaust that frees up a lot of power. However, with just a catback I wouldn't expect to see more than 8whp. But with the whole system (PCD/Jpipe/Catback) I'd expect ~25whp.

Opel: I agree with most things you say as well because you are very knowledgeable. I have seen 255whp for a 6MT TL-s at Temple of Vtec. I'm not saying every TL-s will make that power, but it's not too far off at all. An 8G Accord 6MT made 239whp on TOV as well with very, very low miles. With proper break-in I'd expect closer to 245. Just because it's rated at 286hp from the factory doesn't mean it can't be underrated. I know you know this already, but I'm just pointing it out.

Look at the 335i, they make over 270-280whp and are rated @ 300 crank. The S/C Cobra's are rated at 390 but have seen 360whp stock as well.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

^Bad comparisons between the 335i and the S/C Cobra. You're talking about to F/I cars also. I'll get in more depth when I get out of work

jr27

^ +1 man exactly what i thought as soon as a read it, these comparisons dont lose as much through the drivetrain because one is turboed and the other supercharged.

Sonnick

FI cars lose less power through the drivetrain??? Since when?

If so, maybe they were 2 bad examples. It's still pretty common to see cars being underrated from the factory.

We can only hope our J series is underrated

Opel

If our car is underrated, and let's say it is (theres underrated cars out there)
Then every TL should show within few hp of one another, and not ONE that gets 15 more than the other, (everything being equal)...see, what you've seen is kinda irrelevant, because that's just a car on a dyno. Don't believe dynos. Somehow people just wanna see a high number on a dyno, which really doesn't mean much.
Then you believe that the OP reached the stock crank power at the wheels with a tune, or whatever the hell he claims? Come on man...we'd have to underrate his car by a lot, and say it truly makes about 325 hp at the crank, because he didn't make any power with his freaking tune. The TUNER DID, with his dyno.

We have to ignore the dyno for a min, and think about what's actually possible with the mentioned mods on that particular engine, while applying some science, physics etc.

AtlM5

lol @ FI cars have lower drivetrain loss...those are fine examples for cars that are underrated..but i guess FI cars could have a larger standard deviation with regards to stock power...but our cars are not underrated based on everyone elses' dynos.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

Opel you're correct, but I'd have to disagree that dynos don't mean much even though you didn't mean it that way in its entirety. The dyno itself is fine, its the controller of the dyno like so many other things.

Opel

Champ,
Yes of course...dynos don't operate themselves, but when operated by someone, they become just another misguiding tool. I don't have anything against dynos. In fact, if properly operated they can be a really great tool. But some people abuse the dyno's authority and take everything as it comes, ignoring everything else.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

^Yeah I got what you're saying. Nowadays people abuse the Dyno's conditions to increase HP just to increase HP numbers so the "client/user" would think that this mod gave more HP then was actually there.

Not going to go to indepth, but the 335i small percentage in drivetrain loss is due to its transmission. (DCT or M/T - no torque converter either way)

Also the S/C decreases the rotational inertial losses from angular acceleration occurring within the drivetrain while accelerating. So decreased heat = decrease friction = less load on differential/gears/transmission.

You cannot put a percentage on a "drivetrain" loss that everyone usually does on these boards. They vary, but should all be all in proximity of another (same car). The dyno is needed because it shows a "hypothetical" gain from a mod or shows the actual whp of the car at stock and it shows HP/TQ on given RPMs. The 1/4 is very important, but very exaggerated because it doesn't rely heavenly on the car only, but the driver also. Even a AUTO can be driven incorrectly that you would lose 1/10 to 1/5 of a second off the 1/4.

odehboy

Opel

Agree with the "percentage on drive train loss"...I just got tired of saying it.
It pretty much measures up to this...applying a percentage on drivetrain loss equals to a lot more loss as hp increases with mods for any given car. I don't see how that makes sense in anyone's mind. Why should your car lose an addition 20 hp, because you increased it's output by another 100 hp? all else being equal (tranny, driveshaft, differential, axles, wheels)

I think a good way to measure your hp increase is 1/4 trap speed. Knowing the exact car's weight including the driver.
1/4 time, like you said can vary heavily on the driver, but you're less likely to mess up trap speed..unless of course, you don't shift at all throughout the 1/4 span lol

BostonSilverTypeS

I agree with what you say Sonnick, but quick note out of all 335i I've seen dynoed stock none have gone over 270whp!!

I know this all varies from dyno to dyno but around this way I have seen 255-265whp range believe or not!!

either way still pretty quick car and yeah not good comparision with NA motor....but to OP those numbers are really high regardless of how good the tuner is.......

just curious what kind of dyno was it??

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

Here is the BEST THEORY why DYNOS don't mean anything and sometimes companies OVERrate their cars such as, oh, wait, our cars? In 04-05 the TL was said to of had 270hp? WHY? This is because the dyno they were using was changed to a more real life driving practice and the in 06 they corrected themselves to the proper 256 hp. Same car and no in 04-05 it didn't have 270, but was rated at that.

Sonnick

That couldn't be farther from the truth. The SAE standards change that year.

Opel: I wasn't saying his car made 280whp with the "tune." That's ridiculous with just a CAI. I was saying that 261whp stock isn't so farfetched. Most likely in the high 240s/low 250s though.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

I was just getting at how the car was rated those years for 270 HP, when they were only putting out 256 HP which back in 04-05 they were overrated on HP.

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

^^ great point, as far as the rating change.. on some of the threads its dyno graphs or its bs.. which should not always be the case.. men lie, women lie and numbers do too..lol.. sometimes..

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

If I'm not mistaken, the car still makes 270 HP hypothetically.

STD rating's was done for 04-05 while the SAE ratings were than changed in 06. Just more consistent conditions were used (SAE) than STD.

If you're going to dyno, use a Mustang dyno.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

Also just as someone mentioned before its all about what you can run with the HP. Look at STI'S and EVO's for instance. They are rated to run 13.2 but I guarantee no one can run that stock, I would bet money on that. There are so many factors to driving. I remember when I had my car stock I ran a 14.9 but kept up with/just beat a wrx with an exhaust and intake which should have ran 14.2 just because it was from a roll and the AWD KILLS that power from a roll. I saw STIS at the track run 14.6 with MODS that should have rated the car to the 12 second range.

Also weight for instance. Look at inaccurate, he tore apart his car and since he lost hundreds of pounds he took a TL to the 13 seconds range. You put a huge sound system in the car and have more then the driver running its going to kill performance as well. Also, weather has a huge factor. A turbo car runs like shit and a car will make a lot more power at optimum temperate which is I believe 47 degrees. Humidity is a lot a factor as well as altitude.

All it comes down to is that there is no two identical cars out there as well as over 100 factors that would change time.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

OMFG, Innacurate I didn't know you were anorexic, my condolences. We still love you even if you're only 1 LB.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/kenne-bell-dyno-variables-write-up-798891/

/dyno