I wonder if this would work for us?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Compt...spagenameZWD1V

 

That would be awesome if it did. give us a great opportunity to upgrade the boost, but i'm sure we are going to have to make some fuel adjustments.

 

Boost is made when you flow air through a restriction. The more boost you have on the gauge, the more air is stacking up and not being used.

Whenever you compress air, you heat it, this is thermodynamics law and you cannot get around it. Since your supercharger system does not have an intercooler you are limited to the adiabatic efficiency of the Eaton supercharger.

Hot air is less dense which means it has less oxygen content. The more boost that is present, the more heat as well. In the case of the Eaton superchargers, the M90 GEN-III and GEN-IV are 65% adiabatic efficient at 4-5 psi of boost. More boost means LESS efficiency since the Eaton doesn't compress air very well in it's housing but rather paddles it from inlet to outlet.

So adding boost does not always mean more power. In your Eaton supercharged TL case, it would most likely make the same power while taking away longevity or durability.

See 1 degree of spark timing on a supercharged engine is worth approx 4-5 HP and 8-10 lb.-ft. of torque. So let's say you can dial in 22 degrees of spark timing with 4-5 psi of boost. Then you add 3-psi with a pulley change, boost has gone up since the airflow is backing up and not being used by the engine. You can only compress so much air and fuel in the combustion chambers.

The compression ratio of the air charge (not the static compression ratio, that does not change) has increased which means cylinder pressure has gone up. Therefore you must remove spark timing or the engine will knock. So you remove 4 degrees of spark advance and you have given up 16 horsepower and 36 lb.-ft. of torque. What have you gained?

Now if you could drop the air charge temperatures (the intercooler part comes in here) you could reduce the amount of spark timing that would have to be dialed back.

With my Eaton supercharged and INTERCOOLED 4.6L V-8 T-Bird, I can see as much as 180 degrees F. ACT's (air charge temps) at WOT on an 80-90 degree F. day. That is with 9-psi of boost. At 6-psi of boost the ACT's are 140-150 degrees F.

Remember that this is intercooled (air to water). Add another 60-80 degrees F. without the intercooler depending on the boost, blower and ambient temps.

What determines power output of any gasoline engine is how efficiently is burns fuel. Air is a limiting factor in power production. However you cannot just burn straight heptane (gasoline) nor can you burn straight oxygen. There must be the proper mix or Air Fuel ratio. The STOICH A/F ratio is 14.64:1 (some like to say 14.7:1). With a blower you need to richen up the mixture to help cool the combustion chambers down.

More fuel means more fuel consumption at WOT (not that you care at WOT) but it also means less air that can be allowed into the cylinder and with a hotter air charge, less spark. This all translates into less power production.

So unless you have a way to lower the ACT's at WOT, you will not be taking advantage of the increase in boost.

All things being equal of course, twin screw blowers and centrifugals act differently since their adiabatic efficiency is at a much higher boost level than an hybrid-roots Eaton blower.

I hope this helps,

A-Train

 

I have a snow performance kit on my car, chemically intercooled. It solves the problem with the retard timing and octane issue. With more octane (methyl alcohol) and not being able to advance timing, like in our cars, I might be able to add a psi of boost. Its hard to hear our engine know because of the sensor we have, once the knock sensor sees it, it automatically retards the timing. So once we can get into the computer, than we can make some A/F adjustments, till then the only solution to adding a high boost pulley is to do it with a chemical intercooler.

 

yeah man... the engine just won't knock.. when i was running lean as hell, no knocking.. timing must have been greatly retarded to protect the engine.. hey my car is running proof.. it's still alive after that fuel issue. hey paul. i have a solution to your need for power. EVO !!!!!! haha..

 

Na I beat my buddies evo 8 last week, from a 50 mph roll to 100 I won 2 times.

 

stock maybe.. yeah well you can mod the hell out of an evo ! over 500hp..

 

You and I both know that an evo doesnt compare to a TL. The only thing the EVO has is the power, everything else is in the TL's favor.

 

how does the handling compare?

I always wonder how does the TL's handling compare with other sport sedans or cars.

 

good point.. no class.. if only we can get some more power.. lower compression? custom turbo?

 

stroke it out to 3.5 for trq, low compression pistons, and CL heads so we can do a turbo, then we will be in buisness.

 

sign me up!

 

i found a guy that checked out my ECU harness and the AFC Neo wiring diagram and he's pretty confident he can wire up the AFC Neo to the TL. He's done alot of AFC tunes including his EVO.
So i'm going to setup a time with him in the next few weeks to get the AFC Neo installed and tuned. Then we'll see about that 9 psi pulley

 

first time i heard someone suggest using the CL heads. i thought it was determined the new TL/RL heads are better.

but stroking to 3.5 would give a nice bump in power to those with blowers. that one guy is making 321 whp, with the stroker, i think 350 is do able. it's all about how you tune it.

 

want more boost? Get a Supra.

TL is a luxury car, with the S/C at around 300whp should be more than enough. Anything more, you're talking about more money for fewer pounds of boost.

If you want serious power, buy yourself a domestic V8. Like a Camaro SS or Mustang Cobra and mod them. Or simply stay with Import and get a Supra...............

 

The whole point is not to have an obvisouly fast car.
Our car is not limited to 300hp, there is so much more potential.
We bought the TL for a reason, Technology, looks, etc.
So we are trying to squeeze as much as possible out of our motors, what's wrong with that? I don't want a Domestic V8 or a Supra (i mean, i'd love to have one just for a weekend warrior). But we want a nice comfortable car with great technology like the TL and squeeze as much performance out of it as we can.

So your "Want more boost? Get a Supra" comment is totally useless and doesn't help anyone here.

 

I hope we are not comparing a Supra to a TL here. I think my point and Andrew's point here is that it WILL be nice to smoke a Camaro SS, with the heated seats on and the Navi telling us where to go.
Jack you spend 4k for the blower, fork out the extra 1500 for the intake and procats, you will gain 16 whp and 25 ft lbs of trq. At least do the intake. You can go to pepboys and get everything for about 100.00. You will love the sound
We know a guy that will do the install cheap and good, right Ryan.

 

^^

damn... i just realized I spelled "Obviously" wrong.

 

Againstallodds1,

I'm familar with the Snow Performance water injection kit as I researched it to use with my intercooled Eaton M90(S) set-up. I don't really trust injecting water or methanol into the engine. To much of a risk, but it's just my opinion.

I'd rather use a good air-to-air or air-to-water intercooler.

I agree 100% about having it custom dyno tuned. The only way to dial it in correctly is to have somebody who knows the know, tune the car. Monitor the A/F ratio and add spark timing until the KS trips. Then dial it back to be safe.

Something I did on my set-up was use the ACT (air charge temp) sensor from the '99 Ford Lightning. Instead of using the IAT (intake air temp) sensor mounted in the airbox to tell the computer the inlet air temp, I had a bung welded to one of the plenum runners and drilled and taped to accept the ACT sensor. Then an ex-Ford engineer tuned the car and used the ACT to monitor the blower discharge temps after the intercooler. Once the temps reached 170 degrees F., he would take away 2-3 degrees of spark. If the temps climbed to 180 or higher he added 10% more fuel.

That way I could live to play another day.

A-Train

 

IT's time for someone to come up with a custom intercooler for our TL.

 

It's time for you to get a supercharger.

 

just brainstorming but this pulley might work if we make a custom FMIC. when you have a FMIC you lose approx. 2.8 PSI so this would bring us down to about 6 PSI. with the charger already running real rich and running a cooler charge to and 1-2 more PSI will work, I think. I know that I am not the most boost knowledgible person but thought i would make a suggestion. I know a FMIC would be a difficult task btu i would like to try it. please chime in if Im way off on this idea. some of you know alot more about this stuff than me!

 

There is going to be one major problem with this, at this point the TL was not designed to flow that much air, and as previously stated, the air will just stack up. What needs to be done is a good Port and Polish on the intake manifold and the Heads, until this is done, increasing the boost isn't going to help. If you where to do the P&P on it and then have it returned, you would pickup some extra HP and Tq. The intake was port tuned to work with the factory system, it is only going to flow so much air. Just an idea! Let me know what you think Atrain, is this the route you would go first before trying to increase the boost??

Jason

 

careful, the CL-S/TL-S lost power with a PnP on the heads. Now I'm not saying the 3G TL will lose power too since it has a different head design. But if someone does go that route, go with a very mild PnP first.

But I do highly recommend PnP on the intake manifolds and sending out the TB for the same w/ plate change.

 

Was it on a Super charged car or a N/A car? On a N/A you do run the risk of loosing HP if you can't get the air charge in fast enough, also some tend to polish the intake to much. You don't want a mirror finish on it, you actually need it a little ruff. This allows the air molecules to build up on the runners, thus increasing the flow of the air charge in the center of the runner. I did a P&P on my Prelude that I had done all myself. It was a mild P&P, but doing it gave me alot of experience, a pain, but good to know.

 

I dont think I would touch something like this myself. A buddy of mine has a performance shop in central Jersey( forget the name) I just talked to him. He is real experienced with this shit. He said that he would do it on my car for me but told me to make it real mild because honda normally is real accurate with most of these things he said too mouch would screw the whole thing up! I am gong to see if he can work on it this week b4 I get my charger on next week!

 

The Honda/Acura are tuned for what they design the car for. Supercharging and Turboing change it quite a bit. The added air real can't move throught the intake and exhaust system the way it needs to. The restriction is the limitation for producing more power. I would be cool to have a before and after with your car of the P&P with the Supercharger on it. That way you could see the difference. As for the N/A TLs, I don't think the P&P will yield much gain at this point. Good luck and can't wait to see the results.

Jason

 

i'm not sure the details of what was done, i'm pretty sure there was n/a and n2o, the n2o performed best on stock head.

 

Thats what I would expect from that. With the N2O you are not speeding up or compressing the air, you are just merely adding more O2 to the mix. With FI you need the air to flow more freely, allowing the compressed air to enter and exit the chambers as fast and with as little restriction as possible. I think a good P&P on a SC car will yield some good results.

 

Black_05_TL_6SP,

Most people can't fathom this concept that boost is simply airflow that has stacked up and isn't being used. The more boost you have, the more of a cork in the system.

If you open the intake to the blower, boost goes up. Why? The blower becomes a better air pump and more air stacks up heading to the combustion chambers.

If you open the exhaust and port the heads then boost drops off. Why? The engine can breath better so it can use the extra air that is being forced into the engine. All things being equal of course.

I agree with your statement about porting the heads, however I have no data from stock or ported TL heads to compare numbers. I know what you don't want, some weekend mechanic with a Dremel. You want a good CNC port job from a shop that has been proven. Remember that flow numbers aren't everything. Velocity is important and whatever port job is done it has to work on the dyno and 1/4 mile.

Another thing nobody has looked at is the combustion chambers on the TL head. If they are fast burn, then adding a blower can work. If the heads are slow burn
then they require lots of spark timing to make power. With any supercharged engine, you are knock constrained. So you must remove spark timing and with a slow burn c/c it's like pissing in the wind.

Best thing to do is, uncork the inlet to the blower and uncork the exhaust. Then keep the boost low and don't over spin the Eaton supercharger.

A-Train

 

i understand and agree with you that head work can indeed see gains. but i still hold to the fact that the TL head should not be aggressively ported unless seeing a lot more boost. the current CT blower + a mild street port, you will probably see gains, but i dont think they would be worth spending the money/time to pull the heads, have them bench tested, ported, polished, bench tested, etc. what do you think you would see out of it? my guess would be about 10 or 15 whp w/ the current boost... if that. i would love to see every HP pushed out of the motor, so i suggest contacting comptech for a HBP, getting some mild headwork, and getting a tune, i think you could push out 350+ whp w/ stock internals.

ps. with HBP you will def need a tune if running 91 octane, 93 would probably be ok, but i would still suggest a tune.

 

past edit time... but i would really like to see one of the more heavily modded TLs do a port/polish on the intake manifold and bore the TB/Plate

 

I thought there was a big stink about not being able to bore the TL TB. That it was not suggested? Sorry if I am wrong on the, but I thought I had read it some where. The more smarter thing would be to see if we could get a higher bore TM made. A nice CNC TB!!!! yea baby!!! Just an idea. I do no that spoon has done a great job with there TB's in the past.

I know the drive by wire makes ours a pain, but what other cars are using this?? Isn't the TSX using it? How similar is it? Is there a bored aftermarket TB for the TSX? Just trying to help out these guys with the SC cars.

And thank you for the answers Atrain!

Jason

 

the TB looked very similiar to my CL-S one, i imagine you can get the same work done to it.