With all the talk of detonation and the recent pics of the eaten pistons, I have decided to buy a meth kit to keep my car alive. I have looked at AEM and snow but couldn't see any real differances. I also looked up razor meth injection but wasn't able figure out which kit was suitable for my car. I am hoping a member with experance in meth injection either on the TL or another car can chime in. Also placement of the nozzle is kind of a mystery, since there is very little space to work with. Another issue is what to run thru the system, I have heard some are using denatured alcohol and other crazy stuff like rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxcide.

 

The razor kit all the way. There may not be a kit just for the TL, but it's just a matter of using the correct length hoses and reservior. Julio will answer any of your questions and I've spent over an hour on the phone with him answering all my questions.

I've run 3 different kits and nothing will touch the reliability and transparency of Julio's kit. Mine has been on my GN for nearly 3 years with total reliability. I have contiuously upped the jets over the years until 20% of my fuel at WOT is methanol and the pump supplies it just fine. You will never have to upgrade.

It's beyond easy to tune, you have control over total pump pressure, turn on point, and ramp up speed. There's no bogging or hesitition when it kicks in like the other kits.

The great thing is this kit is designed for pure methanol which will give you the most cooling, power, and octane. Most other kits are for isoprophyl alky and water. I've run that combo before but there wasn't as much power to be found.

 

I was thinking about the snow kit..... any feedback???

 

Do you want to run pure methanol or water/iso mix?

If it's pure methanol, nothing else will be reliable other than the Razor kit.

 

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-parts-sale-361/snow-performance-boost-cooler-s-c-711073/

 

Just looked at that thread.

It's not progressive which isn't a huge handicap in a low boost TL. It's possible (not for sure) that it can cause a slight hesitation if you ease into boost slowly. You will never be able to fine tune it for max drivability and power but it will protect your engine and add hp.

The biggest problem I have with the kit is that it's marketed as a water/meth kit. It will not hold up to meth for any length of time if it holds up to water and vice versa. Seals, pump, and lines are not compatable with one another.

If you run iso in it, you will probably be happy.

 

should i jump the gun or can you guide me into another direction...

 

I sometimes put the other kits down too much because I'm always searching for a way to get that extra psi of boost.

If you're just looking to eliminate detonation from your current setup, you will be happy with the iso/water.

You will take a very slight hit on power vs meth.

Methanol is about the same price as premium fuel. Iso alky is quite a bit more.

If the kit had a warranty, I would run methanol and get it warrantied when it fails.

 

Can I run straight meth? My only concern is the safety of running straight meth thru the engine and the chance of explosion were I to hit something. I am hoping the meth or water mix will provide both the detonation resistance and extra fuel I need to run the HBP safely without getting bigger injectors.
Also the availability of meth is a concern since it is not as easy to find as rubbing alcohol.

 

Straight meth is the way you want to go for many reasons, especially since you want to run it as a supplemental fuel with the HBP. There's only so much water/iso you can inject before you start killing power since water doesn't burn. The only downside is finding a kit that will hold up to it without corroding and eating seals and leaking all over. That's one of the reasons I suggest the Razor kit.

Explosion is not an issue, it burns slower than gasoline. Fire in the event of a wreck was always in the back of my mind. I had a friend total his TTA into a diesel truck with a gallon of meth under the hood and the engine and turbo were covered in meth but it didn't ignite. Made me feel a little better. I also run a BOV that vents to atmosphere so every time I let off the gas under boost, a fine mist of meth goes into the engine bay and no problems in 3 years.

For what it's worth, some of our guys are running 28psi boost on 91 octane which requires C-16 116 octane to run without meth. It has some serious detonation resistance when tuned right. I believe it's 130 octane. When you do the numbers, it doesn't add up. I can only imagine some of this is the result of the charge air cooling.

Most off-road bike shops will carry meth and most race tracks carry it. I get mine from VP fuels at a local Yamaha dealer in a 5 gallon can for about $23. You can check out VP's website for dealers. 5 gallons will last months even if you drive aggressively.

 

Just to make sure we are on the same page about the Razor system. On alkycontrol's web site it never says anything about the razor kit but when I google Razor meth injection Alkycontrol is what comes up. I am trying to order this bad boy by wednesday and I don't want to be ordering the wrong kit.

Thanks for all your help, Most people I have talked to about this just laugh and call me crazy.

 

I apologize, Razor is his screen name over on turbobuick.com. You have the right kit, alkycontrol.com.

If you take a glance over on turbobuick.com in the alcohol/nitrous/propane section you will find the largest knowlege base on alky kits around, with every kit imaginable used, tons of people more educated than me. Even though it's for a different car, the theories are the same.

Hope this helps.

 

Here's my 2-cents...back when I had my STi. A Meth-Injection Kit was the only mod I didn't get to...but was looking into. Many fellow Subie's were running Meth/Water kits (Washer fluid...but a certain brand w/o soap). Because the meth raised the octane enabling to run higher boost & avoid detonation...but then the water would lower engine temps dramatically. When entering the chamber every water droplet would pickup and dissipate heat.

 

My view on that....

Meth does the charge air cooling. We've seen that it completely vaporizes in the air ducting, giving it's maximum cooling effect before it reaches the engine.

It is great as a supplimental fuel.

It's great at cooling the charge air.

It's 130 octane and is a fuel so power loss is just about non-existant even without raising boost to compensate.

Water does not evaporate in the charge air, it vaporizes in the combustion chamber, cooling the combustion itself. This is good if detonation resistance is your only concern.

It can not be used as a supplimental fuel obviously.

It won't cool the charge air an appreciable amount.

It will decrease power unless you raise the boost to compensate. It has 0 octane and obviously won't burn.


Simply put, methanol will make more power than water/iso even at stock boost levels.

I don't want to get into my "other" car since so many hate it but this is where a lot of my experience comes in.

I started running a water injection kit back in '94 when Spearco was the only player in the game. As more kits came out I ran water/iso, 99% pure iso, and finally methanol. These transitions were over the course of 7 years and before the effects/benefits of each were widely known. I'm a tuning finatic and I pulled as much hp out of each setup as humanly possible. I also have charge air temps and egts along with a knock detector and wideband for monitoring everything. In the end, nothing compared to methanol.

 

I knew I was forgetting something. To the OP, whichever kit you get, make sure they know the jet will be under vacuum since the throttlebody is before the blower. They will have to add a solenoid to the kit to prevent siphoning.

And before it's asked, injecting before the blower is a bad idea.

 

when i had my 3g TL and supercharger, I had a meth kit. NOT a good idea on this car.. it killed my high flow cats #1, and I lost power.. If you can't get control of the ecu and remove fuel to compensate for the added fuel, you're just soaking down the cylinders and running rich.. no need... aquamist is hands down the greatest kit out there.. I am running it now on my 08 sti. ! i do miss my TL.. though this all goes away when I hit the gas in my sti..

 

Care to explain why Aquamist is the best?

There is a known problem with the high flow cats and it's not methanol injection.

Removing fuel is not necessary since the TL tends to run lean under boost.

 

Man this is alot of info. I like I am in the same boat, I thinking of getting a kitt but want to make sure and research as much as possible. I will buy new or use

 

N/A question - The TL losses much of it's hp when the ambient and underhood temps get hot. Can a low volume of 100% meth injection be used for the cooling effect to help combat the heatsoaking power loss ?

 

yes it can....i run a water/meth on mine... with the sc the intake air temps are very high...bcs u have the SC sitting in the engine bay hot just like the rest of the motor, and the intake air passing through it, reaches temps of engine bay which is pretty disgusting....

i have an IAT gauge and while crusing today after riding localy...intake temps reached 160 degrees...once i hopped on the highway and pined the car, the water/meth being injected...lowered the Intake temps to 107 in about 15 seconds (it was almost 90 outside and humid)....

u could do that on NA, but small quantities...prob the smallest nozzle, like a 225 mil/min... and maybe run a mixure of 70/30 - Meth/Water.

the kit i use is Snow Performance, Stage II, it comes with a pretty good controller...which can be set up to operate from boost, or maf sensor voltage...and either setup has a 2 step settings...lowest when to initially start spraying, and 2nd setting whenever u want it to go on full blast... the pump is a 150 PSI pump, which can be adjusted to 180 PSI...and a 3 quart tank.

im pretty happy with it...and i recommend it

but then again...wouldn;t you be adding weight to ur car? lmao

 

ur high flow cats were made into someones backyard for one...
and second... pull back fuel?... soaking the combustion chamber with meth? do you even realize how that thing burns?

do you realize what happens to ur 91 octane pump gas when it finds itself being combusted with methanol? it turns into 116 octane... that my friend is, race gas

also dont forget the fact that our cars are tuned in such way that even under WOT, they run almost lean.... not to mention that they're completely lean below 3k rpm.

unless u stick a water garden hose inside ur intake...u aint soaking anything

 

Like it was said, it can help but you have to be very careful of the quantity. In this case, I recommend 100% pure methanol because it will give you the best cooling of the intake charge and you're less likely to lose power from it. I see charge temps drop from 120 degrees at full boost to 30 degrees below ambient but that's with a large shot. There's no reason you can't get temps 10-20 degrees below ambient with a small shot and it being normally aspirated. Of course the % change is not going to be as large since you're starting off with a cooler charge than the supercharged guys.

 

Wow, it's nice to have someone else to answer these questions on here.

 

im right there with you man lol.... im new to this forum...ive had the 3G tl since the first month it came out, and been through a lot with it...

but the things i bump into here...sometimes drive me up the wall lol

 

snow performance ftw. installed them on quite a few cars and never had any problems

 

good info as i'm about to get a meth kit as well. subscribed!

 

so I am slow and my tuning knowledge has never been this granular... how much will a meth - water/meth kit help a non S/C TL? or Stock TL?

Everything I have been reading has been folks with S/Cs

 

if you know the difference between driving in 90 degree weather and 50-60 degree weather... thats what you can kinda get...

you can't expect power outta simply spraying meth into ur motor... u need the air to burn with it... thats why its more effective with boost

as it may make you think that the increase in octane will result in power increase...thats not the case... simply dumping fuel doesnt make power...

in boost situations...meth allows u to run higher boost levels resulting in more power. at the same time it cools down ur intake temps, reducing combustion temps.

 

ah, that just clicked.. thanks!

 

subscribed..

 

I am still debating. I am definately going to sell my stage 1 kit and get the stage two from Snow.

This might be a horrible question but would a custom fabbed intercooler set up accomplish the same thing?

 

Its not a horrible question, while an intercooler will help lower intake charge temps, and that will only happen after a while of driving at highway speeds if you've been driving localy and ur engine experienced heat soaking, speaking of an air-to-air IC.. There's other IC applications such as spraying water on the IC, and also there's water-to-air IC that are more effective since air runs through water cores, and there's a pump and heat exhanger circulating the water and blah blah blah, but try fitting that inside the engine bay... Aside from the fact that fabbing an IC with the way the SC sits and everything, is hard, it still doesn't have the advantages of meth... Spraying meth into the intake charge is instantly effective..while with an IC u gotta wait for friction of air to do that... With meth I see air temp drops of 60-70 degrees in a matter of seconds.

But the best of all is, you're adding fuel and keep ur motor from detonating.

A decent meth kit will run u around $300-$350, while fabbing an IC will prob cost more and doesn't have the benefits of meth...if u could have both, more power to you..but if I had to pick..which I did, meth all the way, no hesitation, no doubting!

Only downside is, you gotta keep filling..but if u find a good source of meth, doing this is well worth it even with the extra cost....

IC to me stands more for just adding some character to the car, while especially in our applications, but at least for me, it can't replace meth injection with its multiple advantages...

While ppl may seem impressed at visualizing a FMIC, which looks kinda cool, I'm happier and more impressed with my RMMI (rear mount meth-injection)

 

Yes professor.

We will be continuing our lecture tomorrow, don't forget to study Chapter 5 and 6

 

why on earth would you sell your stage 1 for a stage 2?

 

stage 1 is meant for N/A cars

stage 2 has the controller

 

The stage one I have is for boosted cars. The difference and I could be way off but the stage two progressively sprays vs the stage one which is on or off.

 

Using both the intercooler and meth would be best. Here's my experience with a non-intercooled car, meth and no intercooler, intercooler, and meth plus intercooler.

If I could only run one or the other, it would be the intercooler. The reasoning is the intercooler will knock temps down more than meth and it never has to be refilled or maintained.

The intercooler will act as a heat sink when you're stopped and building boost or moving slow where the air won't effectively cool it. It keeps everything from heat soaking during normal driving when the meth isn't spraying. I have data logs of me sitting at the line building 15psi on the trans brake. Even though I'm sitting still, the intercooler is still knocking charge temps down by 60+ degrees with the outlet temps slowly rising due to no airflow.

You'll notice the car feels faster off boost and on boost, something the meth won't do.

What the intercooler won't do that the meth will is add fuel and octane.

In summary, the intercooler cools the charge air better and all the time. Meth cools the charge air once under a certain psi boost and adds octane and fuel.

Each has it's own benefits but they work best together.

 

So, Matt, you're saying that a completely bone-stock car would still reap noticeable performance gains from an intercooler?

 

I'm not quite clear. Do you mean throwing an intercooler on a stock car as in no blower or turbo?

I think it's safe to say it's never been done before. Meth has a chance at providing benefits on a normally aspirated car though it might do more harm than good. It would really depend on how well you implement it. A progressive kit is a must if NA. With the way mine is running in the heat, I'm seriously thinking of pulling the meth off my broken GN and throwing it on the TL with a smaller jet to see if it's worth the trouble.

 

Do it, and tell me how it turns out!