213swampy

iTrader: (1)

would anybody happen to have a diy on a aem water amd meth kit

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I installed the snow meth kit about 3 weeks ago. I know the instructions for the snow kit may be different but does aem provide a diagram of how everything should be connected?

I wound up drawing my own diagram of where everything should go (after reading the directions) and it sort of just clicked in my head how it all works.

213swampy

iTrader: (1)

cool so how's the snow kit working out im still trying to debate on which kit
i should get between the snow and the aem one and by the way which stage
snow kit did you get?

I hate cars

Probably the best kit from a reliability standpoint with the best customer service is alkycontrol.com. It costs a few bucks more but it's an awesome kit and you can run pure methanol which is what you want.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I bought the AEM kit since I got a deal. My only concern was where to grab switchable power to hook it up right. Should I be using the black plastic lines the kit came with or go 4 AN pump to jet? AEM claims the pump is good for straight meth but its dangerous to pump or run anything over 50/50 mix since that's the point it becomes dangerously flammable.

Also summit delvers the 50/50 boost juice
next day to my house so I don't have to hunt down q speed shop and buy a 5 gal drum

213swampy

iTrader: (1)

so how would you guys rated the aem kit

213swampy

iTrader: (1)

i also saw the snow performance stage 1 boost cooler it was less expensive thens these other kits out there. im kind of on a 300 to 400 buget

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Are you running boost? If so a kit with a progressive controller would be better. I think you have to get a snow stage 2 to get the progressive controller, the AEM kit is $360 with no tank ( use the windshield fluid tank) and comes with a progressive controller.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Best price on the snow stage 2 kit. This is where I got mine from
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Snow-...Q5fAccessories

I have the kit all hooked up and working but Im not spraying just yet. I need some more tuning first

213swampy

iTrader: (1)

yes im running boost with a comptech supercharger which on would you prefer
the snow stage 2 or the aem

213swampy

iTrader: (1)

how was the level of dificulty on the installation, and do you have to tune the
car before you start spraying?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I think AEM is the better kit. I like the pump better and I think it's cheaper than the snow kit. Also the aem kit is offered with out the tank and they take $40-50 off.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

all these kits are almost exactly the same with the exception of the top of the line kits. I think Inaccurate found some data that said the pumps from different companies were made from the same manufacturer.

The controller is set to start spraying at a boost level that you choose. Usually 1/3-1/2 of whatever your max boost is. Then the pump will increase the amount of spray steadily until you reach max boost (you set the number on the controller). At this point you will be spraying 100% of whatever size nozzle you have.

Install took about 4 hours. The hardest part is wiring everything up. Its just tedious running all the wires. If you can wire up some fog lights then you can wire up a meth kit.

Id suggest getting a bung welded into your intake tube for easy installation/removal of your nozzle.

Inaccurate

AEM and Alky Control seem to use the Shurflo pump. Just by comparing pics. However according to the AlkyControl website, AlkyControl modifies the pump to have better reliability.

The pumps used by DevilsOwn, Alcohol Injection System, Snow, and Coolingmist are from Aquatec.

AQUATEC DDP5800 (click here)

AlkyControl has the highest reputation among hardcore injection users.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm with IHC on the alkycontrol kit. It is a lot more than the AEM or Snow kits, but just working with Julio was enough for me to go with him.

Julio is against running anything inside the passenger compartment which I was convinced after IHC and his buddy had a run in with a leak. I'm using the windshield washer bottle and will relocate the windshield washer fluid somewhere else.

Inaccurate

After seeing this -

Methanol Injection - Failed Instant Tubing Fitting (click here)


I plan to use all stainless steel braided lines with size 4-AN fittings. From tank to pump to nozzle. I will be pumping pure methanol and can't risk any leaks under the hood or elsewhere. Not to mention the health risk of leaking methanol vapors when running pure methanol.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That was the other nice thing about the alkycontrol kit. All lines under pressure are SS braided. That accounts for a large part of the cost difference.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Boost Juice is actually 49% Methanol 51% Water. I went that route because there are small kids running around here. Keeping 1 gallon jugs out of little ones reach is easier than a large container of methanol.

After reading here and other places how bad methanol really is, I am spooked.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

dude, doesnt matter what kit you buy, its all the same sh!t =/

just remember if you go with AEM, they do not make a silinoid to prevent siphoning when the nozzle is placed after the throttle body. so you have to contact snow for one, which is what i did. i think i only paid 20. or so for it shipped.

another thing, running straight meth is totally unneccessary, since were primarily installing the kit for detonation and NOT for maximum hp. meth is for bump in octane, and water for its cooling effects. since your SC, a basic meth kit is all you need. dont get to fancy and go with a more expensive kit like the alky. its not like your running crazy boost levels, with the need of running something more expensive.

for me, i use the stock WW resevoir and spray at 2psi of boost. spraying anything under that, is just a waste if your running the stock pulley like i am. as for the 50/50 mix, i buy straight meth and mix my own for a fraction of what snow performance sells theirs for. meth is 6.50 a gallon where i live, so 26.00 gets me 8 gallons of 50/50, rather than paying 50.00 for 4 gallons shipped to me.

I hate cars

There is a pretty big difference between kits in the form of reliability and safety. I've run the cheaper kits and something ALWAYS goes wrong. Me and my father have been running the alkycontol kits for a combined 7 years with 0 issues.

There are many posts out there so I'm not getting into details but straight meth will make more power and will cool the charge air better than the mix. I have literally hundreds of data points on meth, a mix, and iso alky. We don't need the combustion chamber cooling, we need the charge air cooling, even more so with the non-intercooled supercharger than the turbo.

Inaccurate

Theory is great. But if the empirical data (real life data) does not support the theory, the theory must be thrown out of the window,

I have researched this topic extensively via googling. There is a lot of theory out on the web why 50%/50% mixture of water and methanol should be ideal.

However, every one that has real-world experience with trying various mixtures of water and methanol all agree that pure methanol is superior in controlling detonation, power production, and responsiveness.

I have read (and cited sources in other threads) of many people that have tried pure methanol and never looked back. I never read a case where someone tried water/methanol instead of pure methanol and liked it better.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That is WAY wrong. I looked at all of them and the cheaper kits all have plastic tubing for both non-pressure and pressure delivery. Devil's own give's you the option to upgrade but then you're in the same ballpark as Alkycontrol.

Customer service is also worth paying for.

This is like comparing a Kia to a Lexus of the same class and calling them the same shit.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

so youve ran a cheaper kit on your SC TL for over 7 years with no issues? cause were not talking 600+hp turbo cars running 25+psi, were talking about a 325-350hp TL boosting a whopping 4psi. ive ran my AEM kit on my car for 1 1/2 years so far with ZERO issues also *knock on wood*

for me, i still think straight meth for a low boost SC application is wayyyy overkill. everyone has there own opinions, but i honestly think a 50/50 mix is best for maximum cooling effects on the air charge (remember, were talking SC TL's here ) during those 1 1/2 years, ive yet to encounter a single time ive experienced any pining whatsoever, like the way i did before i installed the kit.

i think im the only one here thats successfully tuned their SC's 3.2 w/ a 50/50 mix of meth. its been 100% reliably thus far, so i can speak for myself that it works and works well :... thats the only point im trying to make.

i dont know how you come to the assumption that im "way wrong" , but you guys seem to forget the OP is asking from a low boost SC standpoint and im giving him my real world experience on meth injection.

im not argueing that their arent better kits than the AEM one im currently running. im just making a point that most of the same priced "cheaper" kits such as devils own, AEM, snow etc,... all run the same type of pump with their co. labels on them. in regards to the plastic tubing, its perfectly fine since im not even hitting the 2nd stage of spray, which kicks in at a minimum of 7psi (im running 4psi tops)

now, if i spent the kind of $$$ you have on this turbo kit, than maybe i would look into a more expensive kit such as the alky or something equivlant. i just didnt see spending the extra $$ for a basic low boost setup like mine. like i said, it does the job and does it well...

I hate cars

Why would you think the type of car would make a difference in reliabilit of the kit? Type of car is irrelevent as the only difference is the length of high pressure tubing and the reservior.

I have run cheaper kits and trust me, you're going to run into issues with yours, maybe not as quickly with your 50/50 mix.

I also ran just fine with no pinging on a 50/50 mix. However, I won't settle for second or third best. There is more power to be had with pure methanol along with more even more resistance to pinging.

You keep bringing up "low boost supercharger" and saying my high boost turbo setup is completely different. You do realize a non intercooled roots at 5psi has close to the same discharge temps as my 25+psi intercooled turbo?

The only difference is airflow which would affect jet sizing. Straight meth and 50/50 have the same effect on an engine no matter what car it's in. Air is air, fuel is fuel, and water is water. I haven't run meth on a TL but I've run it on many, many other cars with the same results each time. I still do tuning on the side so I see more cars than most people.

50/50 does not give the best cooling effects. 100% meth shows MUCH better charge air cooling which is what you need with a non intercooled blower.

There are so many reasons why meth is better, you get more cooling effect, water does not burn, it puts the fire out, water has no octane, water is not a fuel.

The real question is why would you run a 50/50 mix. It's like saying the TL has enough power at half throttle so I'm going to put a block under the gas pedal to limit it to 50%.

I'm glad yours has been reliable but <2 years is nothing to get excited about.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

My point about being way wrong is saying they are all the same. They may function the same but they are very different in what you get. You get exactly what you pay for.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

its very relevent.. with high hp apps, you are running the pump at full power most of the time and using the first stage regularly (50% power), depending of course on where you have it set (0-7psi). the second stage (100% power) is used from 7psi on up. your putting alot more strain on the pump and pushing more pressure through the hoses. with my low boost levels, the pump only uses 50% @ WOT and never has to pump at 2nd stage full capacity , thus extending its life span.

again, i dont see that happening with my explaination above. low pump volume only @ WOT will save wear n tear to the pump and lines. let me ask you this, what do you have your meth kit set to spray at? first and second stages..


if thats the case, then why do people even bother with 50/50? sorry, but i just cannot agree with you here. water IMO has greater cooling (heat absorbing) capabilities than meth and thats why you see many people running partial water to methanol mix. Water, because of its natural qualities, also slows down the burn rate tremendously, so knock resistance is increased all while allowing more power to be produced (with a good tune of course)


true, we'll see... BUT i have great faith that i wont have any issues anywhere in the near future. its not like im laying on the trottle 24/7. theres been weeks where my meth pump doesnt see any action its hard to break something, that isnt really used much, even if it is a so-called "inferior kit"

true dat, im a firm believer you get what you pay for... BUT why go extravagant, with something that isnt being used much? the only time i put my meth kit to the test is when i hit the road course (once a year at most) but other than that, i dont ask much from it depending on my driving habits, it can stay dorment for weeks. a gallon of meth can last me up to 2 months

forget you Kia vs Lexus thing,... its more like going out and blowing $$$ on a top of the line flat screen tv, that you only view for an hour a week.

I hate cars

I've got about 2 seconds before I leave for work but one thing is VERY wrong. Water does have a greater cooling capacity than meth. However, in practice it does not have enough time to flash off in the intake tract so it flashes in the combustion chamber. In real life meth completely flashes in the intake charge resulting in much, much cooler charge temps than a mix. Like I said, I have data log after data log and meth will give nearly twice as cool of intake charge than a mix will. You're only looking at the chemical properties and not how it functions in real life in a real car.

People running the mix are either misinformed, do not have the money to run straight meth, or do not have kit that supports it.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

For me, it's reliability, safety and support that I look for. I'm willing to pay the extra for that.

As Inacc shows, there's a big issue with the quick connectors on the pressure lines. These are the fittings supplied with all the lower cost kits.

Alky goes a little further with their pumps to ensure longer life. Alky always uses SS braided pressure lines for safety. Alky answers questions via email within hours of sending it. All of these factors swayed me to pay more for these things.

Everyone can do what they want. I just wanted to point out my reasons for spending more on the kit I have and how they aren't all the same. To me, it's still comparing the Kia to the Lexus. They'll both get you there, just one is going to be a hell of a lot more reliable and safer.

I hate cars

Well said.


I did want to touch on one more thing and I only have a minute once again in regards to 04accord's reference to running a lower pump pressure on a lower boost kit. You should always be running at least 2/3 of the pump's max pressure under full boost whether it's a 29psi turbo kit or a 5psi supercharger. This is to get the best atomization and the extra 1/3 is head room should it overboost and so it's not stressing the pump to the max all the time even though that would not hurt it. The only thing that changes with higher boost and airflow is the jetting.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

@IHC,

That's actually a limitation in the AEM controller module. There are 2 analog pots on the controller. The first stage can be set as low as 1.5-2 psi, IIRC. The second stage, however, has a minimum setting on the pot of 7 psi. With my old setup, I couldn't even boost enough with the HBP to get the second stage to kick in.

Inaccurate

The reason that we see 50/50 mixtures is for two reasons.

A 50/50 mixture is not considered to be a flammable liquid. Thus, it can be shipped without Hazmat fees. Also with it being considered a non-flammable liquid, the legal liability of selling the 50/50 fluid and selling injection kits that pump a 50/50 mix is *greatly* reduced. Additionally, a 50/50 mix is easier on the pump seals - something that the pump sellers would consider as a plus. As you can see, there is a lot of incentive for the sellers to promote a 50/50 mix versus pure methanol.

As a side note, let's also remember that diesel pickup trucks are a big segment of the w/m injection industry. Perhaps (I don't really know) a 50/50 mix is better for the diesel engines.

Another reason that we see 50/50 being promoted is because of the many theories on the internet. You recited (see quote directly below) a large part of these theories in your last post.


This is what I was referring to in my last post when I said "Theory is great. But if the empirical data (real life data) does not support the theory, the theory must be thrown out of the window,"

Here is some empirical data. Below are links showing many people that have tried pure methanol and never looked back. I never read a case where someone tried water/methanol instead of pure methanol and liked it better.

The only positive thing that I can say about the 50/50 mix is that it steam cleans the combustion chamber.

1) straight water vs Methanol or a Methanol mixture (click here)

2) Straight meth, who runs it in their system only (click here)

3) How much octane does methanol injection really add? (click here)

4) Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! (click here)

5) Methanol users--100% or 50/50 mix (click here)

6) 100% pure meth over mix (click here)




.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

+2 well said. like i said in my previous quote, if i had what you were packing under the hood, i would have definetly opted for a top quality meth kit. you are asking ALOT more from your kit than i am.

i think we are all forgetting the fact that the OP is SC'd and is merely asking how good is the AEM kit is. bottomline is, it works and is more than capable of handling the job the comptech kit puts out. oh and BTW, AEMs customer service isnt to bad themselves

this maybe true, but 50/50 mix is proven to work! my before and after dyno charts dont lie. i managed an extra 20hp/15tq with much lower IAT's and better reliability.

well of course,..i was merely quoting some of the theories that helped me with my decision back in the day when i was in the market for a meth kit. i had no experience with meth injection whatsoever and simply went back on my research that i did in the past that helped me lean torwards using 50/50 mix. PLUS, talking to a few poeple who use it and advise from my tuner too (shawn at church's) i do my homework as you do

im not claiming to be an expert when it comes to meth injection at all, but i do learn as i go. its one thing reading and researching, its another having hands on experience dealing with it, which ive done. who knows, maybe running straight meth would have given me slightly better results or maybe not..., im just here to show that the 50/50 mix is proven to work with my setup, thats it. unless you actually do it, how do you know if a theory actually works?? talk is talk, you gotta walk the walk... and find out things for yourself. ive conquered what i wanted, more hp/tq, lower AIT's, no more ping/knock and better reliability. thats why i say running straight meth, would have been overkill for me... with all the extra info you posted above, makes me feel that much better about my decision.

btw, Innacurate i think you have wayyyy to much time on your hands lol which is a good thing i guess... but i dont think you have personal experience with some of the stuff you post.


+1

thats why with low boost levels, your really not putting strain on any of the meth kit components.

I hate cars

That's too bad. They need to make a true progressive kit like the others where you have a trigger point and ramp up adjustment instead of two setpoints. Or at a minimum the second setpoint should be adjustable so that it can be triggered just past the first trigger point.

I hate cars

Two things. First, this is why you want a progressive, not something with two setpoints. With the supercharged TL's relatively low airflow it's easier to choke it down with such a coarse adjustment especially when running a mix.

Again, you want the pressures to be fairly high from the beginning for atomization. Many of these pumps are capable of over 350psi. Running it regularly at 200psi is not going to hurt a thing. It's a safe assumption that with any kit "100%" is no where near 100% of the pump's potential.


Again, this is an assumption. How many kits have you seen go bad because the owner ran it at 100% too often?

The steel braided lines will take more than double what the pump can put out. High pressure does not put wear and tear on lines. They either hold or they don't hold.

I know you weren't asking me but I have the setpoint at 5psi even though I can run 16psi easily on pure 91 octane. Reason being the turbo spools very fast and after 16psi it's detonation city right up to whatever it's set at from 22psi to 29psi. If I floor it from a roll, it will get transitional knock for a second if I set the meth to anything higher.

This applies to any car, you always have the trigger point lower than what it needs to be.

You're acting like the TL has such a narrow range of airflow which is not true. PSI for PSI, the TL makes more power than my car. We use manifold pressure for the trigger point because it's easy but you have to keep in mind that while it runs low boost it still makes 320hp supercharged and nearly 400 turbocharged. Each psi represents more hp and airflow and a greater range per psi so looking at boost as an absolute is a little narrow minded. You need something with a fine trigger point adjustment because of this, not a 2 stage kit. This again is why the absolute boost level is irrelevent. I can go into more detail with boost vs airflow vs the high compression ratio and show you how it's just as important to have the meth set right as a low compression high boost setup.

IMO, having only 2 setpoints means you're playing catch up. If the meth is lean enough that it does not go rich when the first setpoint is triggered it's going to be lean toward the end. Same with the second. A 50/50 mix is actually harder to tune. Straight meth is a little more forgiving to a rich tune and you usually won't lose any significant power since meth burns and the additional meth cools the charge more.

Inaccurate explained this well. I just want to add again that you don't need or want to slow down the burn rate. That is not the correct way to reduce detonation, it's a band-aid.

You want the 100% meth to flash off in the intake charge. Water, while it can absorb more heat than meth, it does not begin to even halfway flash before it hits the combustion chamber. Another theory that just doesn't hold up in the real world. I have data logs of 100% water and you're talking a 5% change in intake temps. Meth gave a 200% change if your starting point is ambient.



I'm sure you won't have any issues for a while especially running a 50/50 mix but I would keep an eye on those fittings just in case. One thing for sure, at some point in the future you will have a failure of something that comes into contact with the meth whether it's a hose, a fitting, or an electrical component depending on how it is set up. I've run the inferior kits on other peoples' cars and without fail there is always some kind of problem. It's usually not from hard use but from contact with the meth. That again is the problem with your logic, you're assuming the failures are from lots of high pressure use when it's usually from contact with the meth alone.


Because a failure can mean your health or your engine's health. It's worth a few extra bucks to not have to trouble shoot problems.
Not really. Meth needs to work on demand especially in the out of the box supercharger kits. Again, using the meth vs letting it sit does not make much of a difference on the life of the kit. The only way your statement would be true is if you were draining the reservior and flushing the lines everytime it was not in use. The quality of materials in the good kits really make the difference. I've heard straight from a certain vendor of an alky kit that the vast majority of pump failures are because the pumps are not meant for or were not properly modified for reliablie meth use.

Last, if you tried 100% you would never go back, I'm confident of that. That undersized non intercooled roots blower is putting out over triple the heat of the intercooled turbo kit. You need the charge cooling of pure meth. I believe you when you say it does not detonate and right there you're waaay better off then most of the others with the supercharger but you have all of this extra cooling available. Is it worth upgrading the kit to do it? Probably not. But for those who have not made the decision yet, I would undoubtedly tell them to go with a progressive kit capable of 100% meth.

Cross-Hair

Are there any major benefits of using meth on a NA car? Obviously cooler intake air is important to a FI car, but wouldn't it be less significant on a NA?

Snow Performance sells a "Stage 1 Boost Cooler N/A"... would there be any power increases (how much?). Is it worth it for $300 or should that money go elsewhere?

Inaccurate

Anyone running methanol injection on N/A application? (click here)

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

IHC's your making mountains out of mole hills here. i totally see where your coming from, but i still stand my ground that running straight meth just isnt feasable for me. how much more do you possibly think i will gain running straight, rather than the 50/50? very little to none IMO.. theres extra hazards running the straight stuff as Inaccurate pointed out and its double the $$ for refills. theres really no need to make the simplest things, so technical.

50/50 WORKS! the dyno doesnt lie, heres what i did before my last tune,

before w/o meth inj, 327hp/284tq @ 4psi -4 degrees of timing. when car got hot it pinged

after w/ meth inj 50/50 mix 348hp/299tq @ 4psi 0 degrees of timing, safer AIT's, and knocked out the pinging even in the most extreme heat.

like i said, maybe i would have gained a tiny bit more with straight meth, BUT maximum hp wasnt the reason i chose meth inj. reliability was my #1 concern as it should be with anyone running the comptech kit.

i havent had to go back for a retune for over a year now, which is a rarity for me. my car runs consistantly and reliably, which is more than anyone can ask for. without being able to advance the timing (which is a no-go with the FIc) i just dont see how i can take advantage of running 100% meth. my tuner and i played around with the start of injection (along with vtec engagment) and found 2psi was a sweet spot to start the spray. remember, my peak psi @ 4, but mostly 3psi all the way accross the board. spraying before would just be wasting it. i have no need for a "true" progressive controller as you mentioned, with such low boost levels..

now as for reliabilty, only time will tell.... but im 100% confident

213swampy

iTrader: (1)

for all the people with the meth kit thats using the washer fluid resevoir as the meth resevoir how exactly did you get the low fluid level out of the tank that came with the kit, and installing it in the washer fluid resevoir.
i have the aem universal one, would anybody happen to have a diy on that part.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

Bump from the dead...

Times have changed and hopefully equipment has as well... Just comparing the new pump that came out after the last post on this thread..

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2032520

first post

and the "new" kit

http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-...ne-engines-51/

1 Gallon tank with built in low level switch
Boost referenced progressive controller
“Boost Safe” readiness safety system
Check valve integrated into nozzle to prevent unintended fluid flow
One injector and three nozzles to cover a wide range of HP levels
High Pressure 200psi Recirculation-style pump
Progressive Controller: Start Injection Boost 1-11psi. Full Injection Boost 6-39psi
LED dash light for system status and low fluid warning
20 ft. of injection tubing

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

AEM now uses the Aquatec pump as well