kingkong_dav

This is my dyno graph before and after. stock exhaust. i have a low end torque problem. dynapack readings

bbergero1181

subbed for any more updates/progress

bouncer07

your power just seemed to keep going, where'd did it drop off?

Sonnick

^ Lol. Yea....that graph is weird. Your torque is way low for a few hundred RPMs, then picks up nicely afterward. Unless that's a spike at the end, it looks like you would continue making power up past redline. I've never seen a TL graph that shows this even with full bolt ons, let alone a mild bolt on setup with stock exhaust. Apparently it's not easy to dyno an auto though, so who knows.

Kudos for getting tuned and posting the graph. The graph does look a little odd though. Is that @ Church? What did they say? How does the car feel?

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

the graphs came out weird without the cutoff and all that, but the gains look typical for a TL with Flashpro. What are your overall thoughts on how the car drives now? nice to see another tune out there. i'm starting my tune with Vit this week

kingkong_dav

the car drives good. it is smooth. the engine maxed out making only 4hp and 5tq with 20 pulls.

kingkong_dav

i know the tq is low... it is weird that it does that. do you know what the problem is? Bubba @inlinefour tuned it. inlinefour thinks it is tq convertor lock up

Sonnick

^ I have no idea. Again, dynos & ATs usually don't mix very well. What was the AFR?

TurboGSR96

I thought the biggest issue with AT's on the dyno was keeping it in 1 gear without downshifting... I would think using manual mode would take care of that.

What gear was the car dyno'd in?

ultimatum127

You can pop our cars into low gears if you want to keep it in first gear because of the 1st to second feature that comes with the tiptronic mode. It will only go to second if you stay at a constant 5K for an extended period of time.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

yeah, but you dont dyno a car in 1st or 2nd.
i believe the closest gear to1:1 for autos is 3rd gear.

type-s'er

245 hp seems like it would be a stock number for a car making 286 crank hp...maybe SLIGHTLY more than stock. Our cars are confusing these days. Just my

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

nah, 245 is more like a stock 6-speed type-s, not an automatic. You'd be surprised how much the AT loses on the dyno. A stock type-s auto trans will put down 225-235 at the wheels only. It is also well-documented that the 6-speed puts down 15-20 more whp than an automatic.

Here's a quick dyno video of a stock type-s automatic:
in terms of typical FWD drivetrain loss on the dyno - a 6-speed TL can expect roughly 15% loss where an automatic is closer to 20% loss from the rated crank horsepower.

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

agree on this. i've compared two e-dynos (not as accurate but close) of an mt (mine) and at (another member) type s and they were about 20 whp different.

it would be interesting to see another dyno/graph from the OP since something weird was still going on with his pull, maybe he can get his shop to do another one since this one looks messed up

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

I dont get it, did you purposely not include the rpm reading on the bottom of the pic to troll us?

kingkong_dav

My numbers on a chasis dyno is about 285hp, to the flywheel is about 315. this is a dyna pack, readings are different.

kingkong_dav

if you want details on tune...here

speed limiter is left at 129mph.
rev limiter is left at 6900rpm.
secondary intake runner is enable.
it is a "proper tune"
after a couple of cold starts and daily driving i notice that my car pulls harder.

"dynapack readings" are the best readings out there.
$1015 = 5tq and 4hp. great driviability from the "proper tune". my car responds soo well and it feels so reliable.

my mpg is looking stable as in normal 17mpg street and 25hwy.

kingkong_dav

?

kingkong_dav

kingkong_dav

this is the tuner's "inlinefour sales rep" quote. i dont know what gear it was tested in, i drop off the car on my lunch break. all i know they did 20 pulls. it is stored on my hondata flashpro. im satisified with the outcome and the driviability.

Tmarks91

^ have you tried switching the rev limiter or vtec? Damn 5tq and 4tq for a grand? Was it really worth it? im debating weather or not i should purchase it for mine..ive got an auto trans as well but a couple more mods

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Your missing the big picture. It increase power throughout the whole powerband you gotta pay to play especially with the TL

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

it will prob be worth it alone in eliminating the dip at vtec engagement...i'm excited to get my tune, just gotta make time for it and do the datalogs haha i've had my flashpro for like 2 months

TurboGSR96

Those gains are across the whole powerband on basically a stock engine, open the engine up some more and the gains will go up... also who is to say this is a good tune, I think I just read this was a 2nd gear pull? If so that will skew the readings.

bouncer07

If you know how to street tune your car, you can save a few thousands. Flashpro teaches you, so just learn it.

TurboGSR96

Tried to edit my last post damn phone is actin up... I wanna know why it took so many pulls to tune this car, my turbo teg took 8 pulls and we were almost at 600whp

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ probably because people don't have experience with the J motor. They are probably just screwing around and learning using that car as their test subject

TurboGSR96

Being a rather stock NA SOHC motor with a non adjustable cam gear there isn't much to screw with in my opinion...

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

^^ pretty much. Without the ability to adjust cam angles, and being an NA car, there's only so much you can gain with the tune and basic bolt-ons.

You can certainly see higher gains with re-ground or custom cams, head work, ported intake runners, and compression changes but what we actually tune is still the same regardless.

People expecting drastic differences in what exactly gets tuned are going to find they are not the experts on tuning they thought they were, lol. Beyond advancing ignition timing, idle speed, and VTEC engagement, there isn't too much you're going to do in order to gain any more power. And as long as the tune is done right, there isn't really much variance there.

This is, of course, focused on a dyno tune under WOT conditions. I cannot speak to the whole e-tune concept based on daily driving habits trended from data logging.

I've always stood by the quality of what Flashpro has done for my car, and I was always realistic and never disappointed with the gains i had with nothing more than bolt-ons, and seeing less than 10 whp at peak. There have been a lot of armchair critics on the forum who seem to think you should see 20-30 whp gains at peak with a tune on this car, and when those numbers fail to materialize with the reality that we don't have adjustable cam angles like the K-series, then people start questioning the tune.

The reality is you can only advance ignition timing so much before you get detonation. Kids can spout off all day about what they think you can gain based on <insert random forum or what some random guy they know said> for other cars cars or from exaggerated claims from vendors, but it doesn't change reality of physics.

The only way to make serious power on this car without boosting, is to go high compression, cams, heads. Tuning alone with bolt-ons will never, ever, ever give massive gains on the TL.

TurboGSR96

^^^ I agree...I have only had my TL for just under 3 weeks now, and from what I have learned so far the knock sensor plays hell with this motor... anyone think that played a part in the low rpm power issue?

Sonnick

I still wonder how the JnR ECU yielded 20-25whp/tq across the powerband. Dyno manipulation?

CBP08TL

iTrader: (2)

^^ with all the drama surrounding the name and its business practice, i won't be surprised.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

I have a response for this and will post when i'm back from soccer tonight.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ can't wait to read this

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

If there's one thing that I've learned on this forum, it's that I hate the fact my TL is an automatic.

vietxquangstah

iTrader: (7)

At least it's not a BASE MODEL automatic...

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

I'm not gonna slam Rodney here because he did a lot for the TL community overall. The ECU debacle went from bad to worse, everybody who cares knows about it at this point, so let's leave it at that. The JnR ECU can be made to work with some putzing, and it will successfully show gains by allowing you to tune your car for the mods you have.

So to get right on it - who have you seen on these forums making 20-25 whp/tq across the entire power band? I'm talking members, people who actually bought the thing, and who aren't cammed. Consistency? Rodney claims 20/23 on a base TL with just a j-pipe and catback w/third cat delete. So by that logic with how restricted that leaves the intake side, and not even having PCD's - with those mods people should see astronomical gains............................but they don't. It's laughable.

perhaps Anil or BostonSilver can assist with their JnR gains and supporting mods?

Oh and if we do have members here who have dynos that I haven't seen that are pulling 20-25 whp through the entire power band, were they running the bigger injectors and fuel pump that you could get with the JnR as an option? Everyone I've seen running Flashpro is on stock injectors and fuel pump. That makes a difference in the gains.

I've never ever seen anyone making that kind of gain with a JnR and just bolt-ons, though. Ever. As far as making raw power gains goes, both the JnR and Flashpro tune the same thing. Engine response to inputs for air, spark, fuel, and timing is based on the car, not the hardware solution itself. The car will eventually hit a wall with the same inputs from either a JnR or a Flashpro.

and honestly you could pad those numbers on the dyno by running a higher octane fuel mixture instead of 93 pump gas. Higher octane would allow for more timing advance because you won't hit detonation as quickly as you would with 93 octane.

Honestly how many dyno graphs have we seen of the JnR, excluding Rodney's graph? After what, a year? For funsies I googled for "acura tl jnr ecu dyno" and you know what I found? Pages and pages of results of fluff from the official ECU thread here on Acurazine with almost 0 hard results, and if I search Google images, there's like 2 dyno charts for the JnR, tops.

Strangely enough, Rodney's dyno chart for his base TL showing gains over 20 whp was done at Twilight Dyno, and the guy with the base 6-speed and PCD/jpipe who made 18/14 pretty much through the entire powerband was also at Twilight Dyno. (see Page 39 of the ECU thread). It's also entirely possible the base TL responds better and sees bigger gains than Type-S once the ignition and AFR get set properly.

The guy with the 18/14 gain on a base TL, though, had PCD's and jpipe, which is worth way more when tuning the car than Rodney's car on page 1 with a jpipe and third cat delete and a greddy catback. So we're saying now that it's legit that a base TL with jpipe, third cat delete, and a catback made gains of 20/23 at the same exact dyno as the same model car with PCD's and a jpipe and same intake setup made only 18/14? Seriously? That's not a leg to stand on. Not even the "different car different day" argument can stack up to that, mainly because again I'm not comparing peak numbers (which very well can be attributed to different days). The difference between the baseline and the mods are what we are concerned with here, and that difference doesn't drastically change in such a way. Things struggle to add up when you start paying attention and sift through all the noise.

I also never saw Rodney ever post a dyno sheet with his original 226/205 run with stock ECU on top of the 246/228 whp run. Most of us post dynos that show the baseline against the best tuned run on our chart, to explicitly see the differences. Interesting that this is absent in the ECU thread on page 1.

The whole thing has been questionable from the start, especially considering how difficult it was to even get the product up and running in our cars. This discussion is about raw power gains, but I still have to interject that the effective power the car is putting down with a Flashpro is superb.

Back on topic though, there is very, very little evidence that is independent to support the claims of such massive power gains from just the tune. Plain and simple. People need to realize that NA tuning without VCT isn't magic in the forest that gives you tons of power.

That's the biggest point I'm trying to make - there's wildly exaggerated claims on the power gains a JnR makes vs. a Flashpro. And it's a completely pointless argument - some people just don't realize that NA motors are ALWAYS limited in power gains when tuning. It's all relative of course, some larger motors with NA tunes produce higher raw numbers, but the fact remains that NA power is and always will be about the total package - engine balance, compression with a good stroke, cams, and breathing. It's especially important in smaller engines like ours. You just cannot make the power any other way. The main purpose of tuning that is to get it balanced and running properly. Some power gains are naturally a byproduct of this, but the gains from the tune are never that great, relatively speaking.

I don't give a shit if someone uses Flashpro or JnR - they will both get a Type-S into the 300 whp neighborhood with appropriate supporting mods, and *SPOILER* the numbers between the two won't be that different, to the point that it's really just going to be attributed to the fact that some cars are factory freaks - but these people claiming that the FLashpro isn't worth the money because it supposedly doesn't give good gains relative to a JnR, or because a PCD kit gives you 10-15 whp for 400 bucks. Seriously? Do people not understand just how much more R&D goes into a complete ECU tuning solution? Compared to exhaust piping? Serious???? The cost is a STEAL relatively speaking for what you get. Tuning is the gateway to a reliable NA or boost build and anyone who has many bolt-ons for their TL but no Flashpro tune has NO IDEA what they are missing in how much more competitive the car becomes when putting the power to the ground, through the whole band, and when shifting.

If you're buying a tuning solution for the TL simply because you want to make a ton of extra power, you are going to be stunningly disappointed no matter what you buy.

Moving on -
Gerzand was one of if not the first people to flirt with 300 and eventually surpass it without boost, and that was with an assload of mods and a JnR. We just had Juam put down 309 with basically the same mods and a Flashpro - where are the other people with JnR putting down those numbers? And without check engine lights, engine knock, or idle issues that plagued JnR owners?

*crickets*

That's the sound of silence because there's nobody making so much more power over the Flashpro (of the few people who even HAVE a JnR ECU at this point to compare it to) for it to matter. The same variables are tweaked and changed regardless of the solution. One isn't just "magically better" at timing advance than the other, lol. That's the beauty of math, which thankfully is at the core of combustion engines and how they operate.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that JnR was the first full tuning solution for this car (FIC was rudimentary, not a full solution), and it was talked about for a long time, has one of the largest threads in all of Acurazine, and has become somewhat pervasive in the community and sadly word gets around that somehow it makes 20+ whp and people buy into it. Unbiased results of the JnR ECU have been incredibly tough to come by over the past 1.5 years. I've found it quite intriguing, actually.

My final note on this (for now, until someone argues with me), is that for chrissakes it doesn't F'ing matter whether you run a JnR or a Flashpro. Both will tune your car for power gains in the same way, the difference is negligible. We're talking about basic, basic NA tuning here, people. It just. Doesn't. Matter.

**p.s. the exception is Gerz who clearly needs both JnR and Flashpro together because MS3 is allowing him to run that sick 201 shot of DP nitrous. MOtherfucker I am jelly

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

good writeup!

Sonnick

My God that was the longest post of all time

That's exactly what I meant though (in a compact sense). I wasn't saying that the JnR ECU > FlashPro. What I was saying is that it's hard to believe those gains when FlashPro is *only* allowing the Type S to gain 5-8whp. Maybe you're right in saying that the Base will gain more from the proper tune because it's not as aggressively setup as the Type S. Who knows. And I agree, those dynos were questionable from the start. The fact that he was initially comparing 3rd gear dynos to 4th gear dynos, barely any before/after numbers. And the only dynos we've seen were from his tunes. No one else could tune the damn thing lol.

Before we get too much into it, let's wait for Rodney to respond.......

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

i know you weren't saying that I've just been building this case for a while and you asked the question so I figured it was as good a time as any to unload, haha. It's mind-boggling for me to see so many people that don't just open their eyes and think a little bit and build a story, as opposed to thinking an NA tune on a TL should by default make 20 hp or else it's trash, lol.

This is about dispelling the notion that tuning our cars NA without cams will produce high power gains, nothing more.