I hate cars

I listened to my stereo from the passenger seat for probably the first time ever except for being drunk with someone else driving. While it sounds amazing from the driver's seat it sounds pretty bad from the passenger side.

I can shift the balance over toward the driver's side a little more but regardless the driver's side tweeter can barely be heard due to the instrument cluster. I'm installing the MS8 next week but I doubt this can overcome my particular problem. Tweeters are in the stock position right now and I'm very happy with the sound as long as I'm driving.

I'm going to try them temporarily in the pillars but I'm afraid it might mess up the sound on the driver's side. Anyone had success with this? And secondly, will the MS8 be able to get rid of any negative effects of putting the tweeter closer to myself via time alignment?

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

Been wondering about tweeter placement myself ... my understanding is that the a-pillars are one of the best locations to produce the best imaging. I had my tweeters in pods in the OEM locations pointed toward the sunroof controls/headliner, but I didn't really like how they looked so I moved them down, identical to the OEM setup ... at first they sounded like crap, but I did some tweaking, and it sounds decent ... still need to adjust some more

Nonetheless, I've been wondering how much time delay people have been using in order to accommodate the difference in distances between the mids and the tweets as well as the sub ... i've tried this method out yesterday using pink/white noise as suggested, but I couldn't hear the doppler effect that the OP was referring to ... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...your-ears.html

I'll try it out again perhaps tonight or tmrw. Subscribed to hear what others have to say

eggyhustles

Depends on the tweet. I had mine under the dash...well not a conventional tweet, but a hlcd.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

the ID horns huh? I've seen quite a bit of people use them ... hlcd tweeters are more powerful right?

eggyhustles

Nah

I used b&c de500 horns with ID horn bodies.

While id makes good horns..they're all knockoffs of other horns. Their cd2comp model which is their highest priced hlcd($899) is just a re-badged b&c de500 which cost $339 for the pair without the horn bodies.

Yes, they're A LOT more powerful. the de500 is 110db sensitive @ 1w and would tear your head off with 5-10w. Don't know why more people don't use them along with other pro audio based drivers. They're just as easy to tune as conventional car audio drivers and they're a lot more efficient. Most mids won't really get any lower than 80hz but that's really what our subs are for.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

damn 110db lol

eggy, i know you have a lot of experience with the 3sixty.2. how did you manage to adjust the time alignment to compensate for the difference in low frequencies produced by your subwoofer and midbass? The 3sixty has length increments (feet/inches) for time delay adjustment instead of ms, but if our sub is in the trunk and mids are in the front door panel ... that's a very large difference in distance to compensate for using the timedelay function on the 3sixty ... I think I might be having some canceling effects in the lower frequencies, preventing a clear bass ... then again it might just be that the song file isn't the best quality ...

I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but I'm just wondering if there's a systematic way of TA tuning that you use (other than just "what sounds right" if possible haha)

I've tried tuning by ear, but I've found that it's quite difficult for me to put my foot down on a specific setting thinking it's the best configuration ... I've spent nearly an hour a couple of days ago continually changing a little bit here and there, and I was never completely satisfied ...

*Sorry for the thread jack IHC lol

I hate cars

This is why I'm going with the MS8. It would take me years to do what it does in a few minutes. My head is spinning from trying to get up to speed on car audio the past couple months, I don't think I could take tuning too.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

^Honestly I thought having the tuning capabilities would be "fun" to tinker with ... guess I was wrong lol

What I've found was that the issue is not having the tuning capabilities from the beginning but more of the fact that as I start to play with it, I progressively become greedier for better imaging, sound quality, clarity, etc ... fml lol

I hate cars

Exactly. I know myself and I know it would never be good enough and it would lead to more tuning than listening. With the MS8 it does a great tune and you're limited to EQ after that. I figure even the EQ is enough to keep me busy for a long time.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

^ will you be using a rta??? I've actually been considering paying a shop just to borrow a rta for several minutes so I can eq ...

I hate cars

Probably not since the MS8 gets you pretty much flat. From there I just plan on going by ear. From what I've read, most people seem to make few adjustments. At this stage of the game, my knowledge level is just too low to attempt any real tuning. I know the theory of course but to put it in practice right now would be frustrating. Maybe after I have a few months of listening and get bored.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

eggy or anyone else with extensive use of the 3sixty??? much appreciated haha

and also regarding the original questions about tweeter placement/TA?

and ^yeah, at first my 3sixty's flat setting sounded so good, but now I've reached a point at which I want to change it lol

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

It is all a trade off in a car. A-pillars do well for height at the expense of a well defined center image in most cases. FWIW, most people can deal w/ off center image more so than a low stage.

The idea is to get everything hitting your ear at the same time, a cohesive wave front. The tricky thing is, you are in a car so you have all sorts of nasty reflections to deal with. (most notably the hard glass surface 6 inches from your left ear) plus big consoles and the like.

I have always been a fan of having to do as little tuning as possible, thus driver placement is critical. I like to have the mid and tweet close. It just makes for less work down the road.

If doing a close mid and tweet, say in a kick or a door, drops your stage too much there are tricks to raise it up. Everything from adjusting tweeter angle, to changing phase, to adding a second tweeter higher in the stage (which opens a whole other can of worms and kind of flies in the face of my preference to keep it simple)

I am in process on my car and have found a mid and tweet in the kick with the tweeter toward the rear of the car in relation to the mid, angled up toward the listener , on the outer portion of the kick give a passable height, and center image. I am going to also play with a center channel to tighten it up.

To the op, I guess my point of this rant is to just try out a bunch of different stuff. I started with a tweeter by itself with some velcro stuck all over the front of the interior and just started listening.

By spending as much time as I did with placement I hope to have to do less in the back end to get to where I want to be.

eggyhustles

I didn't bother to ta the sub. Just level matched, crossed em over properly, eq, and phase is all that was done. While i was going for an accurate and detailed setup, i didn't want a 100% flat response. I wanted something that would get real loud but not lose it's composure like most SPL based systems. The TA on the 360 is sorta wack compared to other processors, so i just paid extra attention to driver placement to compensate. Just keep playing around with everything until it sounds right. Before you bother with extra tuning, focus your attention on driver placement. Get some double sided tape and start installing the tweets in different locations. If that doesn't work, a good cheat is swapping the tweet for a full ranger.

That's my main gripe with the ms8. It doesn't allow much tweak-ability after it does its thing. It does what it has to do and you're forced to stick with those settings. I'd rather manually tune my system, then let a self thinking processor do it for me and decide what's best for my setup. If i were you, i would've went with something that lets you do all the tuning. You could get the stock crossover points of the dyn crossover..use that as a starting point and go from there.

Hope it doesn't end up sounding boring. I've heard a lot of sq setups and they sound so dry and lifeless. Some like that, though.

Nick337

iTrader: (2)

That's my main gripe with the ms8. It doesn't allow much tweak-ability after it does its thing. It does what it has to do and you're forced to stick with those settings. I'd rather manually tune my system, then let a self thinking processor do it for me and decide what's best for my setup. If i were you, i would've went with something that lets you do all the tuning. You could get the stock crossover points of the dyn crossover..use that as a starting point and go from there.

That kinda sucks right there, i agree with you 100% with you on that eggy. You paying that much for a processor why doesn't it let you change a few things around here and there.

I hate cars

I think I fit the target group. I like car audio, I've invested a fair amount of time and money but I'm still learning and I have a lot to learn before I'm going to make it sound decent with something like the Bit One. There's a fair chance I may give the MS8 to the gf one day and go with something that lets me do my own tuning but for now and the near future I think it is best for me. I did lots of reading over at diymobileaudio to see what the pros thought of it and most think that it gets you very close to what can take 6 months or more of tweaking without. The thing that really sold me was that I can program each seat and have an overall setting. It would be hard enough for me to take care of the driver's seat much less the passenger plus an overall best setting. With that said, it would be nice to do an auto tune and then have more adjustments from there. But you do get EQ and I've heard that if you change crossover settings, phase can change too and the whole tune is worthless which is why it does not allow you to do that.

For now, I have the passive crossover points which I think are at 6db. Probably going to start there at a sharper cutoff.

Even still, keep the comments coming.

I should have the MS8 functional late Thursday and I'll probably get a couple days with the tweeters in the stock position before I move them to the pillars.

Nick337

iTrader: (2)

Remember to put some pictures up Matt of the installs.

jda123

Does the passenger side sound bad to the average person, or just somebody with a more discerning ear? If you average passenger cannot tell the difference, then make it sound good to you and screw the 1 in 100 freeloaders who want to ride with you (and not talk) who might not like it too much and feel the need to complain.

In any case, is this premature? Without your end-game MS8 doing it's thing, I wouldn't mess with anything yet. I think that your supposition might be OK that it won't help, but need to wait and see IMO.

I hate cars

You're probably right. I've had a friend in the passenger seat that did not know I replaced anything ask me what I did because it sounds so good. But for me, getting used to the driver's side and then sitting in the passenger side, it's a large difference. Definitely not changing anything until I have some seat time with the MS8. You're right though and I rarely have passengers.

Stew4HD

^++ due to the shape of the listening area, getting ONE sweet spot to hear your system is hard enough to accomplish.. I optomized my system for the driver's.. passengers are SOL.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

^ can't agree more lol

I hate cars

I agree, driver takes priority. But if making it sound good for the passengers can be accomplished just by moving the tweeters I wouldn't mind doing that.... as long as it doesn't take away from the driver's position with them in the dash.

pohljm

This may be a total noob question, but are your drivers not symmetrically placed about the center line of the car? seems like it should not be that big of a difference between passenger and driver positions? or is it the tuning from the drivers point of view that makes it not so good from the passenger position?

I hate cars

It's the hump in the dash above the guages that blocks the driver's side tweeter from the passenger's ears.

But also, if you optimize the sound for the driver's position, it's going to sound worse for the passenger also. With the processing you're time aligning the speakers along with other tricks so that all sound hits your ears at the same time which means the ones closer to you are delayed a little. The little tricks like this take it from being able to hear each individual speaker to having a "sound stage" way out in front of you toward the center of the dash where you can pick out different instruments, tell where musicians and instruments are sitting, and sometimes even tell when a singer turns his head from the left to the right. Details and clarity also seem to get better. You can no longer tell where the sound is coming from, it sounds like it's up high and in front of you.

Gary Mac

I would not change the tweeter placement until you install the ms8 and have a good many hours into tinkering with it. After you get it to the point where it gives you a perfect center image over your center channel grill, then look at your tweeters. You may just need tweeters that are better off axis.

I hate cars

That's the plan, no physical changes until I have some good seat time after the MS8 is installed.

I'm not sure if it's an off axis issue, there's no line of sight to the driver's tweeter from the passenger seat. The passenger side sounds great from the driver's seat. I'm definitely open to suggestions if you think it can be a tweeter issue.

Gary Mac

I don't know if it's a tweeter issue either, I should not have implied that. As I'm sure you are aware, the ms8 will allow you to do a driver time alignment and separate passenger time alignment, then, you can also set a shared setting that provides bestpossible sound for driver and passenger.

Once you figure out how to set the ms8 unit optimally for your set up, this problem will mostlikely be a non-issue

RBeachTL

It's not the line-of-sight to the tweeter. The tweeter is reflecting off the windscreen and the listeners are getting the reflected energy. The real effect is the second issue you pointed out, that of time alignment. When you optimize the time alignment to make the drivers phase coherent you can only optimally do that for one place. You of course can average the settings but this will be suboptimal for the principle listening location.

The passengers are second class citizens in a well tuned SQ car.

I hate cars

I forgot to order my cabling until right now. MS8 gets here Wednesday and installed Thursday. I'm going to have to order from Woofersetc because that's the only place I know of that can get my stuff here quick enough since they're right over the hill.

I'm trying to determine the length of RCAs and I definitely have to place the order tonight to have any chance of getting my stuff by Thursday.

I figure if I can fit it under the passenger seat I'll get a bunch of 12' cables. If not, I *think* I should be ok with some 1.5' to 3' cables since everything will be in the trunk.

I really want this thing to be on the inside of the car. I'll be in an apartment with no garage until the end of this year and now that I have no garage I'm constantly worried about stuff getting stolen. I figure it should be a little safer inside the car and bolted under the seat. I guess worst case scenario it can go in the trunk behind the side carpeting.

At 3" tall, I doubt it's going to fit.

Thanks for any help.

I hate cars

Nevermind, just going to throw it in the trunk.

I have a weird idea I want to try if I have the time. I wonder how a bluetooth phone call would sound if I used the stock amp connected to the MS8 through the high level inputs. I'm almost considering this just because they're really cracking down on talking on the phone while driving. I just don't want that hiss to come back but I may give it a try just for the heck of it and if I don't like it, switch it back to the pre-amp setup.

I hate cars

Talking to myself FTMFL lol. Installed the MS8 today and did some brief tuning. I have mixed feelings. I'll update my other thread with details.

I hate cars

I have to say I was wrong. Installed the MS8 today, set it up for the driver's and passenger's side. When I listened with it on the passenger setting on the passenger side, it sounded great, I forgot that I had the problem with not being able to hear the tweeter from that position. When I switched it to the driver's position while sitting on the passenger side, the tweeter disappeared again.

Learned something new today.

niebur3

I am finally starting to feel better, coughing aside, how is that MS8 install going? You can call me on Sat with any questions.

Bearcat557

hey from what ive seen an ms8 can be installed under the passengers seat just has to be a bit back because there is a small black box under there. also if you want the bluetooth to work properly you either have to have another speaker hooked to the oem signal or you can do what im doing and hooking it to a toggle switch to go between the ms8 signal and the oem signal

Gary Mac

ARe yoU happy with the way the ms8 sounds? Where is your image centered?

I hate cars

Overall happy. Image is mostly center, a little to the left but its real deep, like a foot in front of the windshield deep. Its about nose level but seems to change a little with different CDs.I have very little sub bass but I think that's my fault. During the first setup I had the gain way down on the sub amp and bass was amazing and up front even at 80hz. It hit hard and blended well. Then I turned the gain up and did another calibration and lost most of my bass. I think I had it too loud during setup because it could be felt during the sweep. Going to play with it some more. I'm not blown away by it but I think it will be very impressive once I actually follow instructions during setup.

I still need to play with crossover points. I started with the same as the passives which were 900 and 3500 at 6db and 12db.

Gary Mac

For what is worth, here are some tips that really helped me over time. I dont think im an expert or anything, but if one does not do the set-up correctly, it can sound really bad and be discouraging. The auto tune is cool, but you have to know the parameters.

during "output diagnostics," get a spl meter and make sure the fuzz coming out of the speakers is all around the same level. For me, I am running the center off the MS8 (until I steal Neibur's idea), so that was my limiting factor. (MS8 cuts the speakers during the auto tune to match the lowest level speaker) I made sure all my speakers were at, or just above, the center channel level. Now by doing this, you may not maximize the potential of your amps, but it will sound better. To this day, I think gain setting is the biggest pain in the ass of this product.
I found I got the best mixture of mid-bass and centered image with my center at about 68db's. I used my gains to get my mids, tweeters, rears and sub at this level. This was with the MS8 volume at -35. If you run auto tune too loud, the image will not be focused as well, if you run auto tune too low, you will not get the desired mid-bass. You have to roll it in flour a little to find the sweet spot. . Im running two way active up front, so I pulled the RCA's for my mids and tweets and checked the spl of each speaker during the diagnostics.

If you are not running anything off the MS8, I would imagine it would be best to determine the sensitivity of each speaker combined with teh power from the amp to get everything to match. Obviously if you are using line level into the MS8, the MS8 is only putting 1v out to the amps, so that is a consideration.

Regarding crossovers, Andy from JBL strongly suggests running everything at a 24db slope, which is what I do. But, he also suggests setting all amp gains at 2v and running set up, however I found that to sound really bad.

I think this is a good thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-ms-8-faq.html

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

exactly! When I switched back to the OEM tweeter location, sound imaging deteriorated by a fair amount ... decided to make some tweeter pods to see if I can remedy it to a certain degree and then many hours of tinkering with the 3sixty afterward lol

Stew4HD

Since sound is direct reflecting and the windshield being a very har dsurface, how can the sound deteriorate? It could be an angle of reflection causing the sound to reflect to the wrong position but you should not lose any "pressure" of the sound wave.

I hate cars

I took some of your advice and set the crossovers to 24db, kept the same frequencies. Definitely improved.

I cut the gain way back to the sub and sub bass is there once again. I love how you can have the sub pounding, covering everything up to 80hz and it still blends very nicely and is never overwhelming or peaky. You can't pick out any one speaker except for the tweeters once in a while.

I see what you're saying about the lacking midbass. Just about got mine where I want it. I might try it again with a little more volume and see what that gets me. It also seems to work a little better if I turn my head past each mirror during the tune. So far it's lots of fun.