I think I know the answer to this but has anyone tried a larger midbass such as a 10" or 12"?

The reason I ask this is it seems no matter how high end and how much the midbass drivers cost, to my ears the little 6.5" just don't get the job done. I want something that can keep up with my W6s from about 65hz and up. It seems like many years ago larger drivers were used but nowdays the trend is with harder working small drivers. I love the effortless sound and detailed midbass of the large drivers. There are certain sounds like drums that I've never heard reproduced right even on some of the $800+ midbasses. To me a lot of these systems sound like you have a sub and a tweeter and there's always that gap in the low end of the midbass.

Here is what really got me thinking some time ago. The "Speaker Works" Grand National from the late '80s. It's still known as one of the best if not the best SQ car out there. It used 2 15" JBLs IB, 2 JBL 12" mounted in the rear quarter panel for midbass, and 2 horns under the dash.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...26tbs%3Disch:1

I've been looking around at some of the 10" midbass drivers out there and I found these for only $100...

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...sort=brandName

I'm sure you get what you pay for but they have a shallower mounting depth than my ID6.5", cheap enough that if I don't like them I won't feel too guilty about wasting money, and they take a fair amount of power. These should at least help me decide if I want to pursue the larger driver experiment or not.

Any thoughts? I'm not opposed to buying another set of my existing 6.5" if that would help and having two in each door or one in the door, one in a kick panel.

 

Humm....

Maybe try a 8". It might fit in the door.

 

This is the best bang for buck midbass on the market

https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=1386

Install is gonna be important here than drivers.

What are you using for processing? Can you do a 3 way?

 

Good, I survived the initial hit without flaming. I figured the response would be bad.

With all else being equal, would I be able to tell a significant difference in midbass with an 8" vs a 6.5".

No processing yet. Trying to get it close with the components first.

Eggy, will that one you listed do well as a midbass? It seems more geared toward the low end.

Will adding another 6.5" to each side make it act like a larger driver or will it just be a little louder? I would hate to add another couple drivers only for it to sound the same.

I have no problems going 3 way with the exception of my lack of knowledge.

 

would installing 2 8" in the rear deck be a possibility?

 

This may give you some thing to think about
http://www.amazon.com/Aura-Sound-T2B...ews/B0002ZPTBI

I have a set ...but never used them and may try them under my front seats some day.. I have seen them in cars and they do work pretty good....if you want to feel your bass..

 

Peerless lists it as a sub, but it plays fine as a midbass.

I was using one in my 2nd gen but it didn't get loud enough for me so i went the pro audio route.

In your case, they would do mighty fine. I fed them 300 each bridged from a jl hd 600/4 and they loved the power...just didn't get loud enough to keep up with a 3000 watt sub stage.


You can use a sub as a midbass if u can get it to fit and get it to play high

I've seen a couple setups of folks using the image dynamics idq's and the sundown sa-8's as midbass and mating them with horns.

2 6.5's will have more cone area than a single 8 but you'll need double the power and double the drivers.

If you need LOUD, consider pro audio drivers and horns.

 

Yeah, but why?

 

My subs will play up to 90hz and sound very nice while doing it. The problem is the "midbass" from them is too loud and drowns out the subbass with no way to control it. I prefer them crossed over at 60hz and lower. I've tried them crossed at 80-90 to take some of the load off of the doors but there was just no way to make it blend.

 

first, how much work do you want to make for yourself?

Second, you will need processing of some sort or at a bare minimum run active w/ really good x-over controls on the amp.

IMO, unless I was building a full on comp car, not daily driven, I would not even attempt this. To do it in a TL will take TONS of work. That being said, if I were to do it, I'd figure out a way to mount the mid-bass under the dash or in the center console sides and do a 2 way kick panel set up w/ enough processing to control it all.

 

because he's talking about getting more mid-bass by installing a second set of drivers in the front, most people say upgrading the rears does very little, so why not delete them and replace with mid-bass drivers?

i don't know much about car audio, it was just a suggestion that makes sense to me, but i could be completely wrong.

 

I'm not real knowledgable but I catch on pretty quick. I get 5 days off work every 6 weeks so I would like something I could complete in 4-5 days. I only have basic hand tools, a table saw, jig saw, a small (but good) drill used mostly as a screwdriver. I've never attempted fiberglassing and this probably isn't the time to start.

When I had the interior torn out for the wire runs years ago, I ran a ton of extra wire and curled the ends up under the dash and in the trunk so it's no big deal to run the extra speakers from that point of view.

I'll manage to get everything installed even though it won't be easy. The part that terrifies me is the processor and tuning required.

I feel like once I start the cutting on the car for the 10" there's no going back so I have to be sure.

What I'm still unclear about is if two 6.5" drivers will extend deeper in the frequency range than only one or if they will just be louder. I'm not really looking for louder, just looking for better and more effortless midbass.

I curious about mounting the midbass under the dash. Do they require line of sight or is it ok to face them toward the floor?

 

I've thought about that but many people seem to think midbass is too directional and would cause it's own set of problems. Honestly, this seems like that easiest way from a fabrication point of view. I bet I could even get a couple 10s in there.

 

I agree with DiamondJoeQuimby.

You will need to run active with lots of processing just to get it in the ballpark. Then lots to tuning to get it right. You will need to find a good spot up front to mount them too.

IMO See how your current drivers sound when they are tuned with an active crossover and processing then change drivers if you're not happy.

 

Maybe I can "borrow" yours at Acurafest this year lol.

But seriously, maybe the processor is the best way.

What is your opinion in an 8" vs 6.5" as far as midbass is concerned. Do you think it would make a noticable difference with all else being equal?

 

It really comes down to the specs of the driver, the location and the tuning (crossover points)

 

how often do you have a 5th passenger in the car? i'm assuming not often since you bandpass through the armrest, try fabricating a box for this area:



just a thought


edit: just read king of pains post about up-front, so it's probably a bad spot

 

The higher the frequency the more directional it is. The sub is ok in the back since these low frequencies are non directional. All others should try to be up front for better imaging.

Currently my tweeters are aimed directly at the driver and passenger. They are not facing up bouncing off the front glass. Improved my imaging greatly. Im trying to figure a way to tilt my door speakers up slightly too.

 

only places i can think of up front would be a pain in the ass and a load of work, even more work to make it look good

is the mid-bass that much more directional than the subs? what about firing the mid-bass toward the front from the rear? sorry for the questions, just trying to get some sort of understanding for this shit while being too lazy to look into it right now.

 

here is the readers digest version:

midrange will give your stage width and some height

tweeters will give you height

midbass will give you depth

That is also the order in which speakers should be placed

unless you can have a lot of control, the further back you place the midbass the more the stage will collapse.

With proper tuning you should be able to get what you want w/ 6.5" drivers. If you add a second set, they will be louder overall (about 3dB, including the midbass range) since you are doubling cone area. That being said, I would not do 2 speakers playing the same thing. I did that in my GTO in a d'appolito configuration in the doors and I never could get it right. Tonally it was solid, but the stage was confused at best.

What equipment do you have? Even with basic stuff you have more tuning ability than most realize.

If you want to blend the midbass with the sub better, try raising the x-over pt on the mids. Also, if you have the ability play with the x-over slope between the mid and the sub (i.e try the mids HPF @ 80Hz 24dB slope and the sub LPF @ 100Hz 18dB or 12dB slope)

If you want to play with your center image try flipping the polarity of ONE of your mid drivers in relation to the other, while keeping the tweeters in phase w/ each other (this can be especially helpful if your tweets and mids are not close to each other like the stock location in the TL)

Unless you are really experienced the ole KISS method will serve you better than you realize. Add complexity as you get more confident and experience as an installer and tuner.

 

IHC,

How do you have your 6.5s installed in your door? Have you done anything to seal your door?

The reason I'm asking is that keeping the speaker's back wave from reflecting off the door panel and canceling the direct wave is key for mid-bass response. I used Luxury Liner Pro to isolate the reflected wave in my door and it really made a significant difference.

You might find that instead of a larger driver a different door sealing approach might give you what you are looking for.

 

yes, install will make a heap of difference

 

Thank you guys. It's funny, I did just this right before I read the post. I had the mids crossed at 55hz. I moved them up to 85hz and the subs up to 65 and it does sound better for sure.

Doors are as sealed as doors can be. I have dynamat on the outside skin along with foam and dynamat on the frame with the holes sealed. The largest open hole is maybe 5/16" so I don't think it will matter.

I still want to go with the larger midbass maybe just for fun. Do you guys think an 8" driver will make a noticable difference over an 6.5" Don't get me wrong, these ID mids have extremely good midbass for what they are.

 

yeah, 55 is way low on a mid when it is your only one. I learned through experience that just because a mid says it will play down to say 45 doesn't mean that it will do it well. You might even play with pulling the sub up a little more.

 

I originally had them at 80hz and then I started searching around (2 years or so ago) and found DIYmobileaudio. I assumed they knew more than me and in a thread on LPF and HPF crossover points, most were crossing around 45hz. Some were ungodly low like 31hz!!! so I experimented.

I need to give you more detail on what I actually have. It's kind of mis matched because I bought components as I went just to experiment with but no master plan. What I have:

Infinity Beta 300 1,000 watt class D amp for the subs.

JL 6 channel amp bridged for the fronts and the remaining channel pushing the rears for fill.

A cheap Kicker crossover that I use for the subs since the amp does not have a built in crossover.

A cheap equalizer for the highs.

Here's where it gets weird..... I have two 2-into1 RCAs. I run the stock sub signal and low pass it through the kicker crossover at 45hz and into the amp. I take the signal from the eq which has a sub out cut off at 90hz and run that to the amp also. What I've ended up with is being able to add just a little "midbass" by turning the sub output on the eq up or down and I can add the deep bass by using the factory sub setting on the touchscreen.

Basically I can have the subs doing mostly the low stuff they were designed for with just a little of the higher frequencies.

The reason I don't just use one signal is the fatory sub signal will not give me much above 60hz and the signal pulled off the mids severely lacks sub bass.

In hindsight it would've been easier just to use a processor lol. But that is in the near future, hopefully before Acurafest.

 

You def want a processor

get a 3sixty.2

They're gonna be ungodly cheap soon since the ms8 is out

audison bit.1 too

 

It's a must at this point. I'm trying to do too much without one right now.

 

From my own experience, 10s are too slow for good midbass if you listen to mixed types of music. 8s are OK to very good, but you have to seal them really well (I have some older DVC fosgate 8s that are great at this, but hard to mount in a sealed manner). The best, for me, are some higher end 6.5s with some dynamat behind them in the doors (I make a little cup out of it and mount the 6.5 in front of it... like it's own little soft, squishy box). I currently use focal K2s run active on bandpass with every bit of the 150W from my 450/4. They keep up and sound great. These are also bigger than most 6.5s.

I had a set of Rainbows that had a great 6.5 driver too... and the Boston Pros are also good. The key (since your door is soundproofed alread) is finding a good bandpass filter and pumping some quality watts to them. No all amps can power these things.

...now I just have to move this stuff from my accord to my TL. Sigh.

 

FYI About the K2's
http://www.abt.com/product/42696/Foc...mpaign=froogle

That's the best price I can find on them and may get a pair soon.

 

Don't ever give car audio advice again.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=294-679






* 600 watt continuous program power
* 2.5" copper voice coil
* 96 dB 1w/1m sensitivity

 

 

That looks nice. I may actually try this one.

 

That's a pro audio driver dude...if u go with that, you'll have to either mate it with a pro audio horn or a super tweet.

 

well played.

I love audio myths.

 

15's for the lows

8's for tight bass

 

I know you're joking but I learned something new when going with this new bandpass setup. When people hear this system on rock and music with quick tight bass they think I have a couple 8s or 10s. They don't believe there are 2-12s back there until I play something that hits a little lower.

 

favorite all time: round speakers sound better because sound waves are round.

honorable mention: lights are dimming, I'll add a cap. And underpowering blows speakers.

 

how about

"sealed sounds better and tigher than ported"

 

I'm might really be showing my ignorance here but won't an amp being pushed to distortion blow a sub. And won't most subs take a little more "clean" power than what they're rated for? I'm asking, seriously.