I hate cars

See, that's the part where we disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. A W7 would be overpriced if it were strictly an SPL sub or strictly an SQ sub. It's the fact that it does both so well and it's bulletproof that make it worth the price. I've run my W6 right up to xmech and not a hint of motor noise, still had good SQ, I can't say a single bad thing about it. You never hear of inherent flaws or QC issues. I ran mine for over 6 years and never once did I have any issues.

I can think of several subs that are more expensive yet might won't go nearly as loud and SQ *might* be roughly the same. You never see people saying the Morel subs are over priced even though they only offer one part of the equation.

You've got mag reviews like this one naming the W6 as the best all around subwoofer: http://caraudiomag.com/articles/best...woofers-part-1

Take a look at the Klippel tests and you'll see the W6 and W7 are the most linear subs ever tested. They have a suspension system that won't quit. Their xmax ratings are the most conservative out there because they use a higher standard just as they do with their amps.

I've tried other subs and amps. Every one was a disappointment besides the AEs and there's a very small difference in SQ between the two subs. I would have been just as happy with 3 12W6s IB as 2 IB15s. I own or have owned different subs from MTX, Cerwin Vega, Infinity, Focal, Tempest X with the God's gift to subs xbl2 motor, borrowed a high end Morel for a month, etc. I've listened to many more.

I own a super expensive MacIntosh, just sold the Interfire, still running an Infinity, Image Dynamics, some borrowed Focals, a RF T-1000ad, and a Zed Leviathan.

Besides the two borrowed items I paid my own hard earned money for the equipment so I have no bias whatsoever. There was never a time when I spent a grand of my own money that I was hoping it would sound worse than one of the JL products and I would have to tear it all out and spend more money again.

I'm not going to not recommend a great product just because some feel like it's over priced. Most of the product line offer the whole package and to me they're worth the price. I'm not interested in a $100 SPL sub that sounds like ass or a $100 SQ sub that won't hit 85db.

I hate cars

That is so true. The W7 is the vastly superior sub in SQ and SPL but the myth that the W6 is SQ and the W7 is SPL won't die.

eggyhustles

Can't argue with what

Still hate the funky ohm load though, lol.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

So the w7's have even better SQ than the w6's??

I hate cars

Close but I think the nod goes to the W7. They're basically a W6 with a LOT more linear excursion. Actually that's simplifying it too much, the W7 is the better sub in every way. I believe JL acknowledges them as their top SQ sub.

jda123

This assumption is not valid. The electrical components inside of the amp have different variances and tolerances. A $.01 resistor might do it's job within 20%. A $.50 resistor might do it's job within 1%. You add all of these components together and the least common denominator gets risen to a higher level and a more true signal gets through. Heat adds another level of tolerance and variance. Think about it - nobody thinks that just because a HU's job is to take a radio/CD/XM/whatever signal and just spit it out without any coloration that all of them are created equal. ...so how does this apply with amps? I can see why it is harder since most speakers are not detailed enough to tell much of a difference, and even then some ears cannot tell. I can tell a little bit (enough) with my $1500 set of KRX, but the even more detailed Utopia are significant. It matters.

You want me to mail you a Zapco DC1000.4 to try out? TM has an LRx of mine and I have another if you want to try those. You ought to be able to tell some difference with the dyns, but I don't know how strong the midrange and tweeter are since i have never owned that set - the ones that I have heard in other people's cars are nice so I image that they are fine. The Utopia 3.5 is VERY good IMO.

After I typed all of this, I would mention that if I never bought the Audison, I would have been plenty happy with the slash still. It was a fine system.

jda123

Depends on which W7. They are 4 different drivers with the same name. Most companies use the same motor and just change out the cone and you can mostly compare a 10, 12, 15, etc. for sound. The W7 use 4 different configurations and all 4 sound different.

You cannot, and should not, mix and match the different W7s in the line with each other.

geekybiker

Shouldn't all that come out in the THD measurements, etc? It would seem the biggest difference is how close to rated power you can really run. A cheap ass amp might only be able to run cleanly at half its rated power or less. A great amp probably does more than rated power. I guess it all comes down to what really makes a difference, and what is measurbating.

jda123

While most can keep THD of a particular signal low, the amp might clip, cut or alter that signal with weaker components. However, the distortion on that modified signal might be low.

Also, THD is usually tested at 1000hz at 4 ohms at some percentage of power (pay attention to the percentage). At 5K, one amp might be 5.0% and the other under 1.0% still. I cannot tell as much until I get into the higher midrange (2000k+) and tweeter, and no manf publishes specs that high that I have seen.

I also don't think that all companies do THD the same and some are probably not completely truthful. Some do noise + distortion while some do noise. Some test different frequencies and different power.

I can show you on a o'scope how a LRx will produce a different signal output than a punch 150a2 (for example) even though they are both stated to be .03% THD.

I hate cars

They do it right. Different motors for different size and weights of the cones instead of a one motor fits all mentality. Think of them as all the same to scale.

I hate cars

The CEA 2006 standard rating for an amp is the power rating at 14.4v into 4 ohm at 1% THD plus noise. If it has the CEA 2006 compliant stamp, it meets this standard. The HD series uses .03% at any voltage from as low as 11v. Most struggle with the CEA 2006 standard, some refuse to use it because it might reveal shortcomings and JL meets a higher standard.

The Punch amps are known to have built in eq so of course they will color the sound.

I hate cars

It sounds like coloration is what you're talking about. It's been shown that some of the "reference" amps have quite a bit of THD and coloration, sometimes more than the cheaper amps. I still fail to see how paying more will get you a better sounding amp as long as all of them hit their rated power and have a low noise floor along with no coloration.

I wouldn't mind comparing more amps since the MS8 flattens the actual in car response. I would be willing to be no one could hear the difference in a blind listening test with amps of equal output and after the MS8 gets rid of any coloration. Once EQ is applied and the amps are level matched, there's just little to no chance of being able to tell a high end from an average amp.

jda123

Many fail to see how paying more for a W7 will get you a better sounding sub as long as all have the same max power and magnets react to electricity. (ok, this sentence was hyperbole - nothing more - so please take it as such). Both sentences assume too much, IMO, and there are material differences that the assumptions leave out on why it matters.

Couldn't you take the whole entire post #41, change JL to Zapco and W6/W7 to C2/DC and make the same point that expertise, materials, and other differences matter and price vs. cost vs. value is not always the same? How can the essence of that post concerning JL not possibly apply to high end amps and their manufacturers? Is it at least possible? If it is even remotely possible, then pay careful attention to the people who have purchased Tru, Zapco, Audison, Sinfoni, etc. that have set them up appropriately that swear that they matter.

I totally understand that it is an expensive proposition to buy into on some faith, both figuratively and monetarily. xxx_busa has some Tru amps - I wonder if he thinks that they matter?

I have heard it with my own ears and I think that it matters. I also don't believe that there was only one shooter in the Book Depository, undecided on UFOs, Beatles over Stones, don't like long walks on the beach as well as all other kinds of stupid stuff... so take it for what it is worth.

I apologize for my part in taking this thread so far off course.

geekybiker

Meh. So much audiophile gear is BS and sounds better purely due to expectations. Show some properly run ABX testing where people can pick out the amp.

Speakers are a different animal entirely. Mechanical devices have a whole lot more ways they can vary that a solid state device.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

W7 is the best. After they introduced the W7 they designed the W6v2 to be a more attainable version. Less expensive, smaller box, less power required. But the 7 is the top.

They designed them to all sound the same. They claim that if you can get each to play at the same volume there is no discernible difference between the 8 and the 13 all the way through the line.