I have been the proud owner of a 06 TL for a month now I am a computer enthusiast by profession so of course I am interested in pursuing modding the navi. I would like to take a different approach by rebulding the CE operating system to behave like a windows mobile or pocket PC. This would allow the addition of other functionality while keeping the stock applications. With that I need your help.

A few goals to keep in mind here. I want to do this legally (and yes it can be done legally). Do this without destroying anything whether it is my TL or anyone elses. Keep the cost to a minimum.

I ask all of you keep the following things in mind. I have a full time job. I also have a social life, amazingly enough. Please be patient; I will not be able to do this overnight. Also I am not 100% sure this will work. So if I run into a wall, I will have to kill the project off. I hope that will not happen. I would say 2-3 months will be enough time.

So I ask that others in the community to help answer some questions I have. And please don't assalt me for asking a question that is in another post. I am human so the three hours I put into researching this I probably missed something. So here goes:

1. Where is the Navi computer? I assume it is part of the dvd drive in the trunk but from what I have read I am not sure. Also instructions on how to get it out would help...I am sure I will need to rip mine out sooner or later.
2. Does anyone have technical details of the CE computer? I am looking for more details than the fact it is a SH4 processor. If anyone has a picture or knows more details that would be great.
3. What is the purpose of the PC Card? Is this on the 04 and 05 tl's? From what I can tell it allows updates to be done without replacing the DVD.
4. How does the computer communicate with the GPS and XM? Has anyone looked onto whether everything is embedded on the board or some serial or network interface is used.

If you believe you have any other information that will help me please pass it along in this post.

For those of you who are curious here is the basic plan. Once I know the base hardware platform and how all of it works I can build a new CE OS. The biggest hurdle is if I can extract the drivers for the hardware that is outside the standard MS Board Support Package (BSP). From the looks of the contents of the BIN files it think it could be done. Once that is in place the navi and audio apps would be called on the screen like a windows PC. There are some other MS licensing issues that I am sure will need to be hurdled but as my co-worker says "We will fall of that bridge when we get there".

If this can be pulled off the possibilities are endless. The XM interface could be re-written (it sucks you can't look at what is playing on other stations unlike any of the other aftermarket receivers). Tripcomputer could be run. But I shouldn't get carried away...

Thanks ahead of time for any information you can provide. I am sure I will have more questions so I will post them here. If this takes off we can create a progress discussion thread.

 

I think this is an absolutely great idea. We need someone with the know-how to dig deeper into the source code. I don't have a lot of programming knowledge, but I am an electrical engineer as well as having a strong computer background. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help/support this effort.

 

bostonbill, best of luck. I'll see what i can find out about the processor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperH - All about the processor

 

Another question, the Dreamcast ran off Windows CE - im wondering what would happen if you were to directly (somehow using a adaptar etc..) plug the dreamcast, would it boot? Or would you have to hack the variables in order to boot off of it? Reason i say this, Dreamcast can run Linux - with Linux you can run whatever you wish. Movies, mp3's etc...

 

Hi there,

I'm very interested in this as well. I was wondering how you are going to keep the stock functionality yet build a whole new OS? I'm guessing that since you have the compiled .EXEs of the various Navi apps, you'll simply include those in your new image of the OS.

As far as I know, noone has figured out what the PC Card slot does, and yes all 3G TLs have it. The DVD unit houses the drive and the computer (as well as flash memory).

I don't have XM on my car, so I'm not sure how it works. I don't know if there's a connection directly from the Navi computer to the XM radio unit in the trunk or if it goes via the Honda Audio bus (I think they use the Alpine audio bus protocol but I'm not sure). The GPS antenna plugs directly into the Navi computer in the trunk so that's how that works...

Someone somewhere took very high res pics of the DVD/Navi unit completely taken apart. I'm not sure if it was on this forum (might have been TSX) or on another. There's a HUGE "hack the navi" thread in the TSX forums.

Good luck with this! I tried to fiddle with the code to remove the nag screen using a hex editor but it really wasn't straight forward at all. Building a whole OS from scratch is a great idea. Only problem I see is how to upload that new OS to the computer's flash memory and have it execute on bootup. Let me know if I can help in any way. I have SOME computer know-how being a computer engineer and hobbyist myself.

 

Not sure if you aware of this thread Secrets of the Navi software. It contains a compilation of what is known about the navigation software. Good luck with it!

 

Thanks for the tips. I found the thread with the pictures of the navi guts here: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=1177

Problem is the link does not work. I sent Inca a private message to send them to me or post a link. If anyone happens to have them please post a link or send me a private message and I can post them.

The dreamcast also runs a SH4 processor. If someone compiled a linux version then theoritically you could run linux on the navi as well. Problem is you couldn't run the navi sw on linux WinCE can run dvd's and MP3's but I doubt the SH4 could handle all of that. Down the road it may be worth a shot.

 

The 'secret of the navi software' thread (https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...7&page=7&pp=25) has a link to pictures of the guts of the navi hardware.
It can be found here: http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesho...e&conn_speed=1

 

I also found this site for HPC SDK. I hope it's useful.
http://www.pdagold.com/articles/detail.asp?a=2
text from the site:
Programmers are sometime faced up to the task to create tiny program or utility for a machine with operating system Windows CE or Pocket PC. If you are experienced in the MS Visual C++ or Basic, this task can be easy - thanks to free download of Microsoft eMbedded Visual Tools. When you finish download of 300 MB file, you can start to develop... :-) Alas... Problem will appear, when the target computer is "powered by Microsoft Windows CE 2.0". It seems to be very ancient history (2 or 3 years) for MS. So Windows CE 2.0 is not supported in eVT. Unfortunately, I have spent some time on the similar problem. Here there is certain information about possibility to develop for computers with operating system Windows CE 2.0.

There is a lot of ways how to build a program. Unfortunately, most of them are commercial products. And that's why these are not suitable for building a tiny utility for your own purpose. Simple freeware tools may not be suitable for another reasons (e.g. too huge executable code, unstable run or not available necessary functions in the tool). The best way seems to take eVT from MS and to force it to generate code for WinCE 2.0. It seems to be an easy task - on the MS page is available SDK for HPC with Windows 2.0. Alas! (Another alas ...) SDK on the Web is "cut off" version and it doesn't work even with Windows CE Toolkit for Visual C++ 6.0, (It is determined for this toolkit!). I don't know why MS has placed unusable wreck of SDK for HPC on the Web. Surprisingly SDK for PalmPC is full and functional. They may have their reasons for it!? :-(

I found that a full and functional SDK for HPC is on CD "Windows CE Toolkit for Visual C++ 6.0". This version can be installed with eVT without problems. My sorrow - I found out no another source for functional HPC 2.0 SDK. The purchase of "Windows CE Toolkit" only for SDK is not right solution... Difference between both versions SDK is enclosed at the end of this text (I have got directory listing only). Searching discussion news on the Web gave me the instructions how to force eVT to compile for WinCE 2.0. It is from Brandon Streiff. I have tried it. And - it works! To spare your time here it is all with my comments.

A) Download eVT from the MS page http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/deve...nloads/emvt30/ File (304 MB!) will extract into 2 directories - DISK1 and DISK2. eVT is in the first of them and the second directory includes SDKs. There is included necessary HPC Pro SDK (determined for HPC with WinCE 2.11).

B) From the page http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/deve...ads/hpcsdk.asp download the file mplatsdk.exe (25 MB). This will extract into 2 directories listed at the end of this article.

C) Install eVT (if it is not installed already) for the next instructions eVT is installed in "c:\program files\microsoft embedded tools\".

D) You can start with amendment according to Brandon:

1. install HPC Pro SDK e.g. to "d:\windows ce tools".
2. install HPC SDK (version 2.0) to "d:\windows ce tools" as well
3. made a copy of "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro" for backup (for future restoration of HPC Pro SDK)
4. delete "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro\lib\arm" and "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro\lib\sh4" directories, (there are no versions for WinCE 2.0)
5. copy contents of "d:\windows ce tools\wce\lib\wce200\hpc\wcemips" over the contents of "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro\lib\mips"
6. copy contents of "d:\windows ce tools\wce\lib\wce200\hpc\wcesh" over the contents "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro\lib\sh3"
7. copy contents of "d:\windows ce tools\wce\lib\wce200\hpc\x86em" over the contents "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro\lib\x86em"
8. copy contents of "d:\windows ce tools\wce\include\hpc" over the contents "d:\windows ce tools\wce211\ms hpc pro\include"
9. rename directory "c:\program files\microsoft embedded tools\evc\wce211" to "c:\program files\microsoft embedded tools\evc\wce211-backup"
10. rename directory "c:\program files\microsoft embedded tools\evc\wce200" to "c:\program files\microsoft embedded tools\evc\wce211"

E) If you choose HPC Pro 2.11 platform in eVT, your type of processor and build a program, it compiles for WinCE HPC 2.0. Move file to your Handheld and try it. Attention! MFC libraries are not included in the "cut off" SDK, that's why you must use only API functions. Choose "WCE Application" as a new project.

F) The compiler warned that parameter "/MC" is unsupported. To suppress this select menu Project-Settings, choose C/C++ tab an remove parameter /M$(CECrtMT) in the Project Options.

G) If you need to develop for WinCE 2.11, you must restore HPC Pro SDK!

 

Inca got back to me and he is sending me the pictures. I go t some form te TSX thread but I don't have pictures of the bottom of the board.

The dumpnavi links are not working (Apparently bysin is in jail...). If someone has a copy (source code i hope as well...) please send it along.

Also a spare trunk unit is something I will probably need and definitely make the process go faster. If anyone stumbles on a drive really cheap let me know. I am going to look around but since I live in BFE I doubt I will find anything.

 

you can get the dumpnavi and source here : http://philipedge.com/Acura%5FTL/

 

Good luck to you. This sounds like wonderful idea.

 

<<<<<-------------Very excited about this

 

do you think it would be possible to add hardware? like a usb port or maybe something that would have usb2.0 on one end and a pc card adapter on the other so you could say add a external harddrive so you could fill it with mp3s/wmas whatever to have played through sound system?

 

I would hope so. There hsd to be some kind of communication port to load the flash rom on these boards. That could be used to add additional hardware.

 

bostonbill, I wish you the best of luck. There have been other who tried to hack the navi, but all of them failed. I hope you'll be able to accomplish it.
I' found a German company which manufactures SH4 based development computer. They didn't have pricing on their site, but it looked very expensive.

 

bostonbill,
I have found a utility that may be of use to you in figuring out this stuff.
First off, have you downloaded the cebin utility?
It is available here http://home.earthlink.net/~akonshin/files/cebin.zip
This utility will allow you extract the .bin including modules and records, and then also allow you to replace files. I'm pretty sure it is similar to dumpnavi.

The other utility that I have found is called Depencency Walker.
http://www.dependencywalker.com/
"Dependency Walker is a free utility that scans any 32-bit or 64-bit Windows module (exe, dll, ocx, sys, etc.) and builds a hierarchical tree diagram of all dependent modules. For each module found, it lists all the functions that are exported by that module, and which of those functions are actually being called by other modules. Another view displays the minimum set of required files, along with detailed information about each file including a full path to the file, base address, version numbers, machine type, debug information, and more."

When opening "navi.exe" in this utility, there seems to be a ton of useful information as well as all the c++ functions that are called in the related .dlls.
Now, I have very little programming knowledge, but i think some of this info will help.

Please let me know if this is useful. I'm really interested in digging deeper into the software

Mike

 

I think the add hardware idea is a winner. I would be estatic about being able to add a HD and play them through the navi screen! This alone would make you a very popular person.

 

I have nothing to add except godspeed.

 

what we really need is someone from the inside to come out and secretly help us out.

 

check here . . . looks as if they have an app that decodes mp3/wma

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...sage_id=552256

Civic PC Card

 

That's really awesome... There's nothing really there telling us what app is doing the decoding.

"Foiled again"....

 

What are they doing with these PC cards? Sounds like they are just loading MP3's, plugging them into the nav system slot, and then playing MP3's. Is that true? I'm having a hard time navigating that forum and can't find all the info. Has anyone tried this on the TL??

 

That question should be answered first. Second, OS and apps are bundled inside .bin files which reside on the NAVI DVD. Website from which 'bysin' used as basis for writing dumpnavi, should contain programs which will allow you to add new executable to the bin file. Third, write a small test program that can be accessed similarly as calcular and appointment book programs.

 

Thanks for the link Kennedy! That should really help alot.

I have been unsuccesfully looking for a second unit to do development on. The dealer charges $2500 just for the DVD unit in back! I was wondering if anyone had an extra to do development on? Or if someone can get one cheap out of a local junkyard. I live in BFE so my resources are limited.

Thanks,

Bill

 

Shop ebay....they normal go for $650 up to $1000

 

check out car-parts.com - under GPS/TV Screen/Info Center - there are some and there's a new set for $850.