I hate cars

I posted this on DIYMA and I have a good idea of where to start but I though I would ask here too. Jerry? Mark? Joe? Need help lol.

So what I did just for fun is take my existing tune and shut off the mids and subs. I lowered the (Dyn 110) tweeter highpass to 2.2khz and brought the (Dyn MW182) midbass highpass down to 30hz and the lowpass to 2.2khz. So midbass= 30hz-2,200hz. Tweeters= 2,200hz and up. I've played these down to 1,600 so I knew they would be fine at 2-2.2khz.

Enough of that.... I left TA as is and had to boost the drivers side midbass in the 1khz to 2khz range a little, probably due to beaming and being 60 degrees off axis at least. I've been very happy with the tune lately, this was just for fun but to my surprise I like it better. It's definitely more natural sounding. A small amount of detail in the midrange is gone but it sounds very nice. Not what I expected from a pair of 9s mating straight to a tweeter.

I don't have the low, low sub bass at extreme levels but there is 30hz content audible. Bass is crisp and clean, midrange is very clear. Stage is actually better somehow. There's a warmer sound to the music. The bass level is way better than the stock sub, about the same as any single sealed 10" sub setup I've heard. When I bring the subs back in, I'm bringing them in at a lower level.

So I'm guessing phase is the obvious place to start. I can switch polarity with a click of a button which I've done repeatedly but I can never get it just right. Other than polarity and phase, where do I go from here? Move the mids to the pillars? Run the mids up to 2.2khz and have the tweeters take over from there?

I hate cars

I'm replying to my own post but here goes. I learned a couple things.

With my typical 40-50hz/12db lowpass on these particular subs I was still getting vocals through the subs, even female vocals. I think this was enough to screw up the stage. I really like the low, shallow slope, it seems to give a great punch and natural sound. To fix this I used EQ to cut the subs by 10db from 160hz to 2khz. Problem solved. Maybe its the ultra low inductance that makes these subs want to act like a midrange in the upper frequencies but I have to cut them lower or steeper than any other sub I've owned.

Next, I needed to revisit my TA settings which were done when I was still learning the processor. Now the sound is more coherent and the whole system is louder without touching the levels.

I lowered the mid to tweeter point to 3,300hz, midbass down to 65hz, and midbass to midrange at 700hz. I'm surprised at how much the stage widens when running the door mounted midbass up higher to 700hz vs 2-300hz. I saved many different tunes where the only difference was the midbass playing higher vs lower and every time the stage widened considerably.

I waited to compare this to the previously mentioned 2-way setup that I liked so much until I was done and this setup blows it away. I'm just glad I tried something new so I could see the problems I was not aware I had.

pohljm

Way to not get locked in, and trying something new!

Gary Mac

I have not been on here for awhile, but I thought you got rid of everything.

I hate cars

I still have everything for sale but I want to sell it as a whole system. I had 3 buyers but I waited for over a month on the first one that kept having excuses and flaked out so now I haven't sold a thing. I need to bump the thread on DIYMA. Looking at my PMs from people wanting to buy separate parts, I could've sold it all if I had parted it out.

How are those 650s doing? I still regret selling them sometimes.

Gary Mac

The 650's are good. Still in my truck. They have impressive low end. You should look into getting a rta, I just got one and it helps a lot.

I hate cars

I had an RTA but someone "borrowed" it. I had maybe an hour worth of tuning on it. I definitely need to get another. I've burned a ton of test CDs and I'm really getting the system dialed in but it would be so much quicker if I had an RTA.

Glad you like the 650s. Are they playing as part of a 2-way?

rich20730

X2 on the RTA. There are too many cheap and easy solutions out there not to have one, especially with all the tuning capability of the PS8. Dayton UMM-6 or MiniDsp UMIK-1 with a laptop and REW or Ipad with camera connection kit and Audiotools and you're good to go.

I've actually found that by taking measurements, my ears have become a lot sharper. It really helps to be able to correlate what you are hearing to an objective measurement.

If you want to improve your ability to tune by ear, Harman's - How to listen
Software helps a lot in learning to pinpoint various response issues: http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/ There's also an app called Quiztones which pretty much does the same thing.

Gary Mac

Yup, 2 way with the scan d3004 tweeter. I have the 650's crossed a little high, but they still sound good. Are you trying to get rid of the tl, or just the audio?

niebur3

Matt, sorry I didn't post sooner.

I have a small period after I took out my 430's and redoing my kicks that after a week of listening, kinda thought something similar. I can tell you that tuning a 2-way is MUCH easier and the 110's with the 182's probably did sound very good. Probably better than any 2-way combo out there.

But then I had my wife listen and see pointed out that the 3-D image was gone and the midrange wasn't nearly as good. I put the 3-way in and spent a LOT of time tuning, most of it being levels and time alignment. At this point the 3-D image is back and VERY strong and it completely blows away my 2-way setup.

Audible memory is so short and once you get that 3-way dialed in, you will remember why you spent what you did to get them. Who doesn't like a 3-way?

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

When I first went to 3 way setup it didn't sound great. It was okay but the 2 way I came from was definitely better. It took me quite awhile to get the 3 way tuned now its better than the 2 way ever was and after I get the the tweeters mounted up in the pillars imaging will improve more.
For me trying to tune a 3 way for the first time was very frustrating. I spent a lot of time playing around with crossover slopes, freq, phases, rta, speaker placements, reading forums looking for ideas, tips, suggestion and then one day I was playing around with the crossover settings and like a light switch everything clicked. I think some freq were canceling each other and the part that was lacking was now there, very clear and detailed. I haven't touched it since.

niebur3

Hm, I don't seem to have an imaging problem at all with the factory locations. I guess it may depend on the tweeters you are using.

I hate cars

I've had much better luck with imaging with the tweeters in the kicks or on the dash but on axis. I had the Dyn 102 tweeter in the stock location and in the kicks and it was an instant improvement. The only thing I wish were different is the processor, I wish I had the PS8 back when I had the 102s in the stock location.

I can say that the 110 tweeters image better "near" the stock location (on top of the stock hole since they won't come close to fitting in the hole and firing at the windshield) than the 102s did. There's less of a difference with the 110 between stockish location and on axis or in the kicks but there's still a nice improvement in imaging.

I could get a decent center image in the stock locations but it was always fuzzy. I wouildn't say I have pinpoint imaging yet but it's pretty focused, you can hear where a piano is for instance and hear the difference in space between a high note and a low note. I can tell where the backup singers are standing or sitting. Obviously I can hear each individual instruments and hear the separation even when they're close to each other. One of the biggest improvements to get this was the 110 tweeters and having them on or near on axis. I've heard some winning SQ cars and my imaging is not at that level but it's pretty good.

Jerry, have you tried the 102 on axis? I think you have but I can't remember for sure.

I hate cars

Totally off topic but in about 5 minutes I'm going to remove both front seats, remove the 900/5 and install the 600/4 back in it's place so I can have 300w per midbass again. I'm going to lose my subs for a day until I can make it down to a local shop and get some power wire to put the sub amp back in the trunk. I tried down sizing and I can't live without the cleaner, more dynamic sound with each speaker getting more power. I don't know how the HD amps work but I could swear the tweeters are cleaner when the subs aren't pushing the same amp so hard and the midrange is cleaner when the midbasses aren't close to shutting down the common amp. Now that I've run the system both ways (tweeters and subs sharing and amp and midrange and midbass sharing an amp vs subs on their own amp, tweeters and midrange sharing an amp and midbass bridged on it's own amp) I want to see if what I heard was real. It could be in my head but I thought it sounded better with each amp coasting vs being pushed to it's max. With just the midbasses playing it's a very noticeable difference in distortion. 150w at 50hz does not go very far. While 300w isn't a lot louder it really sounds cleaner. My main concern is if the tweeters and midrange really do sound better when they don't have another set of speakers pushing the amp hard. It's hot here and no AC in the garage. This is going to suck.

I hate cars

That came out large lol.

Gary Mac

I got to get in my garage and wrap up my new stuff too. I added a dc 750.2 for a sub, and am now bridging a 1000.4 for mids and a 360.4 for tweets. Got a never used phase linear aliante 12 si ltd I'm going to try to put in too, the damn thing is big tho and I had to cut my fiberglass enclosure. Then I got to re- tune...

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

I haven't played around with putting the tweeters down at the kicks but I had them temporarily mounted on the sails and a-pillars. With the tweeters on the pillars about a 9" or 10" above the dash the imaging was very good. Much better than at stock location. I just need to find time to get my pillars fiberglassed . I started a new job a few weeks ago and with the new work load and schedule it hasn't left me with much free time lately. That should change pretty soon though.

I've spent about the last 15 years working on computers, servers and networks. I've touched just about everything there is from small to large, very complex environments. When it comes to troubleshooting I'd say I'm a fair bit better than the average person or IT professional. Troubleshooting is at times an art. But first you must have a solid understanding of what it is your working with and how it works. But technical knowledge will only get you so far. You must know how to break down a problem into logical steps and work through each one systematically, knowing which ones can be skipped and which areas need to be looked at. But sometimes you just have to experiment. Like swapping out parts. Even then there should always be a logical reason for it. Having said that tuning a 3-way or 4-way if you include subs, in a car has been one of the most challenging experiences I've encountered. There are a lot of different variables to deal with and besides our ears not many tools to measure with. This is where experience can make all the difference.
I actually started documenting everything thing I was changing along with the perceived results. I started over from scratch a couple of times. Leveling the gains on my amps, resetting the DSP and starting over. For me having an RTA was indispensable. Besides my ears it was the go to tool to measure and calibrate with. Wouldn't it be great if we had a tool that could see sound waves as they're bouncing around inside of a car?

I hate cars

I'm still at it. Got the midbass and mids up a d running. Making the tweeter terminations. I forgot how much better 600w on the midbass sounds. I had them turned up a bit for testing and the fiancée came home and opened the garage door. I walked outside right as gangsters paradise came on the radio. I was 30-40' away from my car on the driveway and I couldn't believe that kind of bass was coming from my car with the subs completely unhooked. It's such an improvement with this power.

About the tuning, I have literally 30 different tunes saved on the computer all labeled with some sort of identifier. It's really cool to be able to go from my 3-way tune and tansform it to a 2-way system in 1 second. It really allows you to compare different tunes quickly.

Right now I sitting where the drivers seat used to be and my garage door is rattling from just the midbasses playing. I don't know why I ever went away from the additional power.

I hate cars

Done, going to bed, I can get 3.5 hours of sleep if I'm lucky. I'm glad tomorrow is Friday.

What a nice improvement, totally worth it. The whole thing is more dynamic and distortion free. I'm going to see if anyone notices I don't have the subs hooked up tomorrow. Going back to 1200w on the subs, looking forward to that as well.

I hate cars

I've had a couple days of listening time. This is with 300w to each midbass and 150w to each midrange and tweeter along with 1000w to the subs. I added 400w to the front and 500w to the subs. I had this setup briefly before but I don't remember such a huge improvement, probably because I had not experienced either setup for very long at the time.

The improvement is more that I could have imagined. Music is more lifelike and it sounds more relaxed now. One problem I had was at moderate to high volumes the music would begin sounding slightly compressed. That is gone now. Just dynamic distortion free music at any volume. The midbass has more punch and that punch doesn't go away at high volumes anymore. I used to assume the loss in midbass in the upper volumes was due to the stock HU flattening things as the volume goes up.

I was wondering if there would be an improvement by having the speakers with the least current draw sharing an amp while the subs and midbass get their own amps. Where it would fall apart sometimes was rock music at really high volumes. Sometimes the different notes would begin to blend together and it would sound slightly harsh. I didn't know if it was the mids and tweets or the amps. Now I know it was the amps. The tweeters got a bump in power from 100w to 150w and no change to the midrange power. However, the whole system including the mids and tweets keep their composure at any volume level. I had to tap out for the first time, it will go louder than I'm capable of taking even for a short time.

I have to give it to Dyn for making some speakers that will give some serious output while never losing their composure. I haven't found their limits or even where they begin to sound stressed.

An interesting thing I found out about the HD amps is as you go above a 4 ohm impedence power actually increases. An 8 ohm load will receive more power than a 1.5 ohm load. I was wondering if my 6 ohm tweeters or my old 8 ohm tweeters and 8ohm midrange were getting much power but now I know they are/were getting the same or more power as the 4 ohm speakers.

This has changed the way I will determine power needs in the future. Jon W of the Magic Bus is running several times the long term power handing of his speakers and his explanation of why he does it makes a lot of sense. Instead of trying to match the amp to the long term power handing of the speakers I'm going to shoot for at least double that number. Not because I like to listen to it really loud much but because everything sounds so much better with a lot of headroom even at normal listening levels.