elbodude

Will our TL's be able to take advantage of this? Or is 5.1 only heard on DVD-A?

LED Master

elbo, I e-mailed XM about 4 months ago asking this question, they said no, but that it does not mean that they will not offer in the future. Maybe it is worth e-mailing again.

Only problem is our stereo is the only one on the market that is able to play XM in 5.1, or is it, maybe it is only set up that way for DVD-A's?

KJSmitty

Were did you here that?

I would say that one would need a new receiver capable of receiving and decoding the signal not to mention one that outputs the signal to the head unit via 5.1 channels. My "guess" is the current XM receiver in our TL's uses a two channel output/input to the head unit.

What would be really nice is if our ELS-DTS head unit had an "optical/coaxial digital" input. That way you could input DVD video/audio and or any source with digital/5.1 sound capability..

Smitty

elbodude

XM made the annoucement at the CES in Vegas. Thanks for the info.

bradjs

if i could hear xm in 5.1, i'd probably never leave the car. scary thought

LED Master

I have a svc manual, I will have to check it again tonight, but as I remember, the XM only had two line level outputs, so 2 channel only?

That would really bite if the 2005 came with a 5.1 XM receiver!

JoganJani

I think we'll still need a new 5.1 receiver for XM.

RJC RSX

i knew it! i brought this up several months ago and a member emailed xm and they basically said it was a possibility. this is great news

ndabunka

I can't get out of the car now when I have my boy with me and we've got the XM Kids channel on. He even called into the DJ (Absolutely Mindy!) the other night after cub scouts and she put their discussion on the air (about an hour and a half after they spoke). Yep, we sat in the car (half in/half out of the garage) just so that we could hear her discussion on the air! In all it was pretty cool and he got the biggest KICK out of being able to call and speak on the radio!!!

jshih57

As far as I know, the XM radio is Stereo (2 channel), if XM broadcasts in 5.1, we will need a 5.1 decoder (2 channels in, 5.1 out), either in the radio (upgrade radio) or some how route the XM output to a 5.1 surround processor (also good for DVD movies for those who are considering adding), then route the 5.1 output back to the amplifier. I doubt our amplifier has an extra set of 5.1 inputs (need to check service manual), then also need a switcher to switch between DVD-A & XM 5.1 outputs. I'm not that familiar about 5.1 surround processors for mobile applications, but if they are similar to the home units, they should provide switching for at least 2 sets of inputs (& outputs). Appreciate any comments on this subject.

greenseed

Yeah, I know computers, but you sure seem to know radio/electronic paraphernalia jshih57.

Ken1997TL

XM would have to broadcast in 5.1, something that is feasible, but the TL (at this time) would be the only car that could listen to it stock. I'm sure in the future this will be a possibility.

LED Master

OK as promised, I checked the svc manual, the xm receiver has only Left and Right outputs (+ and - ), so something major would have to change.

NOX 3.2

The XM receiver taps into the two line level inputs "or aux" port of the ELS Sound System. so it can only be Stereo (R & L) channels. In order for the XM signal to be 5.1 or equiv, it would have to use a lot more bandwidth from the satellite, which is very expensive for them! - (the XM signal is already compressed)

The situation is similar to DirecTV which only transmits a few channels in 5.1 (and/or HDTV) because of the bandwidth.

"Every" XM receiver would have to be changed in order to enjoy the 5.1 sound (because you need a decoder not present at the moment). if (and only if) you ever get that 5.1 XM receiver, you would tap into the 5.1 TL amplifier by using a multi-line switch.

good idea though, but it may take another 10 years!
to be financially beneficial for them.

żGotJazz?

KJSmitty, jshih57, NOX 3.2, and others -

A new receiver would definitely be required for XM Radio to take full advantage of a 5.1 capable system.

This is not likely to happen in the near future, so don't hold off your 04TL purchase thinking that this will appear in an 05 (or 06 or 07) TL.

Why? Here's a few reasons:

(1) XM Radio is just getting started, and they aren't profitable yet. Implementing 5.1 audio stations would involve new transmission & reception technologies. This is VERY expensive, with little or no bottom-line benefit to XM Radio.

(2) There isn't that much audio-only 5.1 material out there yet that would merit having multiple (or even one, for that matter) XM channels of 5.1 sound. Heck, it's hard enough to find a few good DVD-As right now.

(3) Since new hardware would be required to receive and playback 5.1 audio, a lot of new and existing customers would get very irritated with XM Radio for forcing a radio change so early in the infancy of the product (Satellite radio has only been available for a couple of years - How would you feel if a product such as XM Radio forced technology changes on you every few years?)

(4) You won't be missing any channels, unless the management folks at XM radio are really stupid. What they would do to keep us "old technology" users from revolting would be to "simulcast" 5.1 audio on on station, and then they would be less likely to lose customrs.

A few other related thoughts:

(5) My personal opinion is that DVD-A will become a dead (or mostly crippled) technology within the next few years. Remember Sony's MiniDisc players and Philip's Digital Cassette players? There just isn't enough of a improvement in the sound quality to result in the DVD-A becoming a "gotta-have" product that pushes CDs out of the market. History has shown many times that if a new technology offers only quality improvements, the new technology won't sell. There has to be convenience and other desirable features in order for the product to survive. MP3s are an excellent example of this concept ... MP3 recordings are actually a reduced quality audio recording over standard CDs, but the reason that MP3s became an accepted technology standard is because of two huge conveniences: You can store a lot more music (approx 8x) in the same amount of storage space, and you can get a lot of your music for free via downloading over the Internet.

(6) CD Disc manufacturers won't want to produce and market 2 versions of every disc (CD & DVD-A). DVD-A will always be a "niche" market, at least for the forseable future.

Sorry if I'm bursting your bubble!

DavidNJ

Agree on DVD-A. It will be superceded before it takes hold. It is a shame Honda/Acura didn't include MP3/WMA capability. And some stereo surround sound processing.

Ken1997TL

I think its called the law of diminishing returns. For X amount more dollars do I get Y amount of improvement? With DVD-A you get a little bit better sound but is it worth it? Does it dramatically change how you listen to music?

You can only fool the human ear so much.

BigBluu

I think this is a moot point. If I'm not mistaken, tracks need to be remixed to 5.1 before you can enjoy it. That's why we aren't seeing many of them on DVD-As or DTS CDs on the market. If this ever did happen, they would repeat the same tracks over and over because of the limited availability. You can't just play a regular track on a 5.1 unit and expect the surround experience.

Z Factor

:lol1:

Actually it would be great if XM does it. I might just decide to subscribe.

frainc

I have a 2003 TL-S and I install Sirius because all the streams are commercials free. Right now Sirius has just started one stream that is 5.1 if your car or home is setup for it. So it could be done, I do notice a more surround sound than the other steams.

Sirius is doing it from its current equipment also.

I hope when I get my next Acura that I will be able to switch to Sirius than XM, as I like Sirius better than XM, yes, I did listen to XM streams also.

Majorhouse

Anybody remember how great 8-tracks sounded back in the day?

...and that fast-forward and track selection was the greatest thing in the world!

:yack:

MikeRadio

XM already did announce at the CES that they will start with 5.1 sound.....

Some people thaty posted here seem unaware that this is a confirmed fact, and will be amazing!

Now, I am sure the Acura is not equipt to pick up an XM feed with 5.1 since this just was announced and there is no encoder.

However, I am sure starting with the 2005 model year, they WILL be equipt with 5.1 encoder for XM.. just makes sense.

Question:

Does anyone know how hard it would be for (even for a price) Acura to upgrade the system to pick up 5.1 XM when it is rolled out and equipment is available (since a lot of us have bought this car for long term use)?

Mike

PS - To whoever said DVD-A is dead or crippled.... There needs to be more titles... It is useless without.... This will be a dead format unless something is done. There are more SACDs out there.

KJSmitty

Question:

Does anyone know how hard it would be for (even for a price) Acura to upgrade the system to pick up 5.1 XM when it is rolled out and equipment is available (since a lot of us have bought this car for long term use)?

Being a home theater guy not car audio expert - My educated guess would be it would only involve changing out the XM receiver - fairly easy job.. And then the hard part, figuring out how to wire in the 5.1 channels from the receiver into the head unit/DVD-A 5.1 input wiring...

Now, my question is - in the current ELS 5.1 system, is the digital (5.1) decoder built into the head unit or DVD-A player/drive?? If its in the DVD-A drive then the head unit has 5.1 channel input. If its in the head unit, then the head unit must have either a 5.1 channel input or a single digital input... Either way someone/smart car install guy should be able to tap into it.

Like you mentioned - if you have the money, I'm sure it can be done.


Smitty

DavidNJ

Sometimes it is cheaper to trade the car...

gregory28

I read that Honda owns a percentage of XM and that's why they are including XM as a standard feature in all TL's. XM is going to 65 commercial free stations beginning next month and is adding a top 40 country station and a weather channel among other enhancements.

Lore

How will XM 5.1 really sound any better than what it is right now? I still much prefer listening to my CDs over XM because it's so much clearer -- unless XM somehow changes the compression and makes the songs clearer and not so muddled, it'll be like listening to something slightly better than FM but with discrete channels!

InAcura

I do not believe XM has plans to offer hi-fi sound. It has never been marketed as such, and is targeted mainly at cars. If you want hi-fi quality your stuck with CD's and DVD's for now.

MikeRadio

XM has already ANNOUNCED 5.1 sound... It is a fact.

I am sure they will have to re record or send different music files down that are BURNED IN at 5.1 somehow, so they should sound a LOT better than the current XM sound, which isn't bad to say the least.

Also, Honda does NOT own any part of XM.. It says that GM is an investor.. not Honda.

Z Factor

Did they announce when they would start broadcasting in 5.1?

Xzinkz

I don't know........don't wanna be the party pooper but when something this good comes along it only means getting raped in the wallet and i'm starting to feel the puncture. But if this really didn't happen it would be pretty swell for all of us.

jdriver

So, you would rather that newer models had no new features? Now *that* would bite.

żGotJazz?

Hi, MikeRadio -

I don't doubt you, but I guess I'll believe it when I see it.

It appears that XM Radio may be trying to do a little "one-up-manship" against their competitor, Sirius Radio. With XM announcing their new "commercial free" music stations, that puts them more on par with Sirius, at a lower cost. The 5.1 audio thing may be an advertising tool to get more market share. That could make it more worthwhile and valid for XM to offset the development costs of supporting 5.1 Audio.

I still contend that 5.1 Audio doesn't make a lot of sense from a music-only standpoint. 5.1 Audio works great for movies, because there are visual effects that are made much more realistic by providing aural cues that match the visual effects (such as an airplane fly-over).

However, when we're talking just music, when was the last time you were at a concert where the drummer was behind you, the lead guitarist was to your left, the percussionist was a little behind you to the right, and so on?

I'm guessing that unless you're a lead vocalist in a band, or play in a quartet or orchestra, that has never happened to you. And if you do play in an orchestra, does the music sound better where you are sitting, or is it better in the audience where you hear everything combined together? I think the answer is pretty obvious ...

The goal of audio reproduction is to present the music in such a way to provide a sense of realism that gives you a "you-are-there" experience. All of the times that "I-are-there", I'm in the audience. Now, if 5.1 Audio wants to reproduce a concert (classical, rock, or otherwise) in a realistic manner, I would expect some ambient noises from the rear, and possibly some crowd noises behind me. I sure wouldn't expect the saxaphone to be coming behind me.

For these reasons, I believe that 5.1 Audio for home (and auto) is mostly a marketing gimmick, and won't be around for long. Part of the reason that the old quadrophonic sound died a quick death was because nobody figured out a good way to use it for audio (movies were in stereo back then, too). I think that this is still the case, and that's why you haven't found lots of DVD-A disks out there.

Your opinion may (and probably does) vary.

NOX 3.2

MikeRadio :
Maybe you got confused with Zalman XM-RS6F 5.1 Surround Headphones . It's not XM Radio!

http://www.tweakzone.nl/extreviews/277

I read the announcemnt at the CES forum, but I also read that it maybe more towards Surround Sound type emulation, not true DTS 5.1 as we know it. I really want this too, so let's hope we are wrong.

MikeRadio

Actually, I like many people have a surround sound system 5.1 in the home which sounds great.

However, for a long time I would be thinking how even BETTER this would sound in the car, since it is a small closed enviornment.

If the DVDAs are in 5.1 and sound so much better, why do you not think it would make it would sound great when XM starts 5.1?

I think it will be great... hopefully we will be able to upgrade....

I do not know what you mean about the commercials... now both don't have commercials... and the Sirius said something about surround sound in a press release.

But if it happens today or in a few months, it should sound amazing in the small cab of a car!

danno

If you love the DVD-As with instruments heard all around you, why not radio?

żGotJazz?

Danno, that's my point ... Do you want to reproduce realistic sound, or do you just want audio wallpaper? If you like having "instruments heard all around you", that's your preference - but it isn't what would be considered realistic. When was the last concert that you went to where you had "instruments heard all around you"?

When I turn the lights down low in my house and play music through my stereo (not in surround sound), it's magical - with good recordings, it sounds like I'm just a few seats back from the stage and you could almost touch the performers. That's the ultimate goal - trying to reproduce a sonic experience such that if you were at a concert, it would be indistinguishable between when you were there and when you listen to the recording.

By putting a separate instrument in each speaker, you'll sure get lots-o-music, but you won't be listening to a musical reproduction that is supposed to represent any sort of realistic experience.

That said, I'll go back to an earlier point that I made in another thread. Trying for a realistic reproduction of sound in a car is a totally lost cause. You won't be able to get the "stereophonic effect" (the key to realistic reproduction) in a car. You may get some separation of sound - hear some more sounds from one speaker than another - but you won't get stereo.

The "stereophonic effect" is a kind of optical illusion for your ears. Most people have never heard the stereophonic effect on their home systems. Remember those pictures a few years back that looked like random stuff until you focused your eyes differently - and then BAM! - you saw a three dimensional sailboat?

In order for the stereophonic effect to work properly, it's very similar and just as tricky. It takes a bit of effort to place your speakers in the room properly, getting the seating position correct, wiring your speakers correctly, and getting a relatively flat frequency response. When you get it right - BAM! - you can get a three dimensional sound effect from just 2 speakers, where you can pick out individual instument locations that can be picked out side to side and front to back. The sound comes from between the two speakers in front of you (and maybe a bit beyond the sides), reproducing the music like you are sitting in the audience.

This won't occur in a car, and that's OK. In a car, you are sitting too close to the left speaker (in the USA), to be able to get the stereophonic effect. When I listen to car audio, I don't have the same expectations I have of my home system. My main goal in car audio is to reproduce the sound so that it has a realistic frequency response. That way, I can still enjoy the blending of sound so that it becomes a cohesive "whole".

I don't look for stereo imaging in a car, because it just can't happen. Adding a few more channels of seperation doesn't make that any more possible.

OK. Time to step off the soapbox and get to work so I can pay for the car ...

danno

I see, er, I hear your point

Z Factor

You bring up some good points that I had not considered. Listening to my .38 Special Live at Sturges DVD-A, it did have ambient and crowd noises behind/around me, so it sounds great. However your points about a sax or drum to your left or behind you is something I hadn't considered.