bored7one4

I have 75k on my TL. This will be the first time changing the tranny oil so i plan to do the 3x3 every oil change. what type of ATF oil should i use and is it ok to mix since my oil is still OEM?

thanks

I hate cars

There is sooo much info out there on this subject. Try a search and you'll have half a day's worth of reading.

tophoplz

i did a drain and fill today. just used honda atf.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Don't you think the 3x3 every oil change is a bit excessive? Maybe a 3x3 every 50,000 miles would be a better interval. As far as ATF choice, choose wisely.

VQPower37

3x3 every oil change is a lot, your fluid will def last longer than that, a 1x3 every oil change is still overkill but will suffice

I hate cars

Honestly, this has been gone over a hundred times before. The fluid type, the new DW-1, the frequency, and the reasons why.

Inaccurate

The RR Journals: ATF drain and refill 3G Garage #C-012 (click here)
C-026: DIY Changing ATF (with Pics) (click here)
Racing ATF (click here)
Time to change transmission fluid? (click here)
AMSOIL Synthetic Transmission Fluid VS Redline D4 ATF (click here)
Did a 3x3 today with Redline D4, with some first impressions (click here)
Advice for my first ATF change (click here)
Tranny fluid change at 17k? (click here)
Auto-trans fluid change method? (click here)
Weird ATF level reading even after car was run (click here)

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

bored7one4

Im sorry i meant since i havent change atf yet ill do the 3x3 with in the next three oil change. the reason i ask about Dw-1 is i called the dealer and they only got the new stuff but its $11.84 per qt. very pricy

I hate cars

I can't believe anyone would consider paying that kind of price for such a crappy fluid. Honda has really outdone themselves this time.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Your opinion!

I hate cars

We know it uses a grp II base oil. We know it has too much FM. We know it oxidizes heavily by 20,000 miles. We know it does not hold up in hot weather. We know it causes shudder due to too much FM. These items are not opinion.

For slightly less money you can buy an ester base oil, no FM, that can *reliabily* take the factory recommended interval.

Once you switch and see absolutely no metal particles on the drain plug and shifts more than twice as quick, you'll never go back to that crap fluid.

stiffdogg06

iTrader: (1)

I have 12 qts of Redline D4 sitting right next to me. I am waiting for my 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches to arrive on Friday to do a 3x3 and to replace those sensors.

I hate cars

Any way to trade at least 3 of those quarts for the Redline Racing fluid? You will be much happier. D4 is still a great fluid though.

Turbonut, what is your maintenence schedule like? If I remember right, you're taking the Z1 out pretty far, right?

BradE

Almost $12 a quart for a dino based ATF? Damn, and I thought Z1 was over priced for what it was. Honda is just bending people over now. Nothing like charging top of the market Group V prices for a low end formulation. :ghey:

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Wasn't going to start, but guess you can't control yourself.
You profess to use Type F fluid and I'll repeat that the Redline Tech stated that absolutely it should not be used in place of the Z1, but you disagree, guess you know better. If you think that the metal particles on the magnet indicate a problem with the trans, your mistaken, normal.
Just to sum it up, with Honda selling over 1,000,000 cars annually since 1999 and 11,000,000 vehicles world wide in 2007, can't say the Z1 is junk or there would be millions of Honda products sitting on the side of the road and yes, I do realize that not all 11 million contain the Z1.

Phillies won. I'm going back to watch TV.

I hate cars

And they had a class action lawsuit for early trans failure too.

Redline tech did not say it would hurt the trans. In fact, they said very much the opposite when the question was worded correctly. Of course they can't "recommend" the fluid in something it's never been tested in.

Look at all of the shuddering it has cured. There has not been a single failure of a transmission when running the racing fluid. The turbo TL's 5at is holding up great with the only mod being a cooler and the racing fluid. The last time the turbo was run with Z1 it took one day to fail.

As for the metal on the magnet, it's normal when running on Z1. How can you argue that no metal is not better than lots of metal? The metal is wear. Why would you not want to decrease it even if it were "normal"?

Honda has this long going campaign that you can only run their fluid and then they charge outrageous prices for a terrible fluid. It's worked up until now but hopefully others will see how much better shifts are and how much longer the trans lasts on the racing fluid.

BradE

I just did a little more reading on DW-1. It says improved cold temp operations, high film strength, and less oxidation are the benefits.

Do you know what that points to? It means they upgraded from group II base stock. IHC, Innacurate and myself have been posting about that issue for a few months. The basestock used in Z1 is simply inferior, especially in a FWD application and a small sump. There was a tech note also saying if a customer complained about harsh shifting in the cold, the recommendation was to do a 1x3 with Z1. That tells me the new DW-1 doesn't have as much friction modifiers in it, and they are worried the 55+ crowd is going to bitch.

So let's some up, supposedly, DW-1 has improved basestock, and less FM. Hmmm, seems like I've heard that before. Oh yeah! Redline and Amsoil have been making that fluid for a few years now. Seems to me that Honda is, in a backward and typically arrogant way, admitting that Z1 blew. But of course, some of us already knew that.

bored7one4

So redline is the way to go huh? does it matter if i change 3qt every time over the next 3 oil change?

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

We're in the same boat except I'm waiting on my Racing ATF lol why did you get 12 quarts?

Inaccurate

The timing between each drain/refill is not critical. Just do what is convenient for you. With each successive drain/refill, you will be reaching a higher percentage of that fluid that you are adding, and a less percentage of the previous fluid.

It is up to you to decide how quickly you wish to reach your goal. Also, it is up to you to decide what percentage of the new fluid is acceptable to you. Nearly everyone agrees that doing three drain/refills is good enough, which will give you 78% of new fluid and 22% old fluid.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

The early trans failures were not all the Honda products, and not the the result of the fluid, but an inherent transmission design flaw that was corrected by adding the oil jet to the cars that required the change. If you view the cars affected:
2000/2004 Accord V-6
2000-early 2004 Acura TL, CL
Millions of others operating on the Z1 and were not affected.

So the Redline Tech stated not to use the Type F in place of the Z1 and you say its ok, just as I stated above. The Type F fluid was discontinued in the late ‘70’s and should not be used in the newer vehicles as the fluid doesn’t hold up well to the higher heat that is generated with these later model vehicles. That is a given. Remember back in the ‘70’s when the Ford products would come into the shop with thick, sticky varnish in the trans that used to be ATF, that was the type F fluid.

First off, anyone that would add a supercharger or turbo to a FWD Acura, or any other car without any modifications to the transmission doesn’t have a full deck, but as stated, the oil cooler will do wonders for any transmission. If one wants a harder more durable trans, do an upgrade.

Just like the manual trans clutch dust, they will last forever. Have seen cars with well over 300,000 miles, still particles on the magnet and no problems.

Time for breakfast

I hate cars

It was very much not cured by the oil jet. The kit only cured the broken second gear gears. The excessive clutch pack wear especially 3rd gear was not cured. The switches and racing fluid completely cures this.

Whoa there. They did not say not to use it, they only said they could not recommend it. Varnish of a '70s fluid is irrelevent. "Type F" only designates a fluid with no FM. Redline is an ester based fluid and there's no chance whatsoever of varnish.....ever.


Regardless of whether it's a good idea to turbocharge a FWD Honda, the racing fluid was the key in making the trans hold up under double the factory power. The issue is not excessive heat, the issue is not enough clutch holding power which the type F brings up by 100% and more.

Why would you do a non-existant trans upgrade when a cheap fluid swap does everything you need it to do?


I'll guarantee you've never seen a Honda 5at behind the v6 go 300,000 miles. Again, dust, metal, etc is wear. Why would you not stop it if you have the chance to do so with a good fluid that's no more expensive than OEM? You're one of the only people I've ever seen argue that the OEM tranmissions are reliable.

You're arguing with something that has a 100% success rate. This fluid has cured a lot of transmissions that were about to be replaced due to shudder.

ClemsonAcura

iTrader: (1)

I have a sideways question, would the Z1 be better replaced in all applications? What about my girlfriends 4cyl accord? Is this unique to the V6 transmission that honda created and has been trying to make robust for the last decade or is this a all transmissions sort of discussion?

Disbe

iTrader: (1)

Arguing with IHC about tranny stuff...... lol, this is great!

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

I hate cars

I agree. I think I posted in the old thread that it may use a better base oil than Z1 due to it's thinner viscosity yet better film strength. Good catch on the tech note. I agree that it probably uses less FM. Finally, Honda is catching on lol. It's too bad there had to be so many failures first.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

So to clear a few things up for myself and other people about to make the switch.....Which ATF do we use for an everyday application??


-I live in Oklahoma so the temps can get around or a little below 0 in the winter and up above 100 in the summer...which would be best for me? ..if that matters....


Redline D4
Redline D6
Redline Racing ATF (Type F)
Redline Synthetic ATF
Redline Lightweight Racing ATF

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^^do a 3x3 with 6 qts of racing and 3 qts of lightweight.

Inaccurate

^ Same thing Shark said.
Just worded diferently below. v

Use 2 quarts RedLine Racing ATF (PN# 30304) and 1 quart RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF (PN# 30314) per every refill.


IF you can't find the RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF (PN# 30314), just use all RedLine Racing ATF (PN# 30304).

bored7one4

Do you guys recommend my changing to Redline in my 06 accord too? its a 4cyc engine??

Hacura

Yeah, but it provides for an excellent learning opp. Besides they are always civil and that makes it better.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Bad day! Trying to take down a 50 foot cinder block wall and concrete footer behind the garage. Getting too old for this type of labor.

[QUOTE=I hate cars;12402538]It was very much not cured by the oil jet. The kit only cured the broken second gear gears. The excessive clutch pack wear especially 3rd gear was not cured. The switches and racing fluid completely cures this.

The circulation problem and second gear heat up under certain operating conditions, is the cause the fluid reaches third gear @ 315 degrees and burns the clutch pack and no, different fluid doesn’t correct the condition, but the oil jet does.

Let me put the Redline Tech’s reply this, way ”I would not use the Type F in place of the Z1”, so if your interpretation is that his intention was a recommendation, you call, but that’s not correct.

No, it is heat and lowered considerably by the added trans cooler.

A transmission that is used under harsh conditions such as racing needs more than just a trans fluid upgrade. You should know about the converters, aluminum drums, flex bands, pumps, planetaries, valve bodies etc. If it were as simple as just fluid change it would put the people that modify the transmissions out of business as all we would need to do is to change to a Type F trans fluid and watch the 600/700HP cars put the power to the ground with no trans modifications. Even you can’t agree with that.

You’ve got me on this one. I mentioned 300,000 miles on other transmission with particles still on the magnet and still going strong. My son did have 257,000 miles on his Accord (original trans) before someone rear-ended the car.

Shutter is something I would need to see and feel as most shutters are a converter problem and can be rectified by the changing of fluid to bring it back to OE standards. After the fluid is overheated, or just plain worn out, a fluid change can remedy the problem as the fluid is renewed, not necessarily because of the change in fluid type.

I hate cars

[quote=Turbonut;12404505] Bad day! Trying to take down a 50 foot cinder block wall and concrete footer behind the garage. Getting too old for this type of labor.

The circulation problem caused some extra heat but it's mostly localized to second gear. I'm sure it contributes somewhat to the overall sump temp but the second gear issues were not the cause of the 3rd gear clutch slippage.

You must have missed Inaccurate's converation with Dave at Redline.

Heat can make the FM laden fluid even more "slippery", another reason to stay away from Z1. But heat was only the issue in second gear and again, it was localized.

Again, I've seen the torn down units. Heat is the effect but the cause is excessive clutch slippage. The reason for excsessive clutch slippage is too much FM in the Z1. Take away the slippage and you take away the heat.

You could have the sump temp at 50F but you're still going to overheat the slipping clutches very quickly.

On many cars, you're right. I was retarded enough to stick with the 200-4R in my car which cost $3,500 for a unit that won't break. I should've done a TH400 years ago. However, these Honda transmissions are not breaking hard parts. I'm not aware of a single 3rd gen TL that has broken hard parts. They fail by slipping clutches. This fluid stops the slippage so it stops the failures.

I admit that with the turbo TL, I was hoping the fluid would stop the slippage but I was fully expecting it to start breaking hard parts once the slip was gone. So far so good.


The third gear shudder is well documented and somewhat common. You can see just how common in the 3rd/4th gear switches thread. Changing the switches is the first step to getting rid of it. After that, switching away from OEM fluid to a non FM fluid takes care of whatever shudder is left.

I wish you would read that entire thread. Over and over people experience shudder, some do a flush with Z1 which does nothing but a switch to Redline completely cures the issue.

Disbe

iTrader: (1)

Im not sure how you can claim the oil jet was fixing the problems either. I went through 3 transmissions on my first TL which was a 99 and my 2nd TL which was an 02 (yea, ive owned 4 TL's, lol) I know of many people who went through 2,3, 4 or even more after having the oil jet installed.

Eric Perry

Sorry to turn the focus away from the debate, but can you guys explain what the benefit is of having the 1 qt. of Lightweight in there per change?

Thanks!

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=764322&page=7

post#264

...and that whole thread really is good info to know.

stiffdogg06

iTrader: (1)

Used them all yesterday.

Eric Perry

Thank you, sir!

pro50gt

I am about to do a transmission fluid change on my 2001 CL-s. I have access to both Honda/Acura ATF-Z1 or ATF-DW1. Which one should I use? Is one better then the other? Please HELP!!!