rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

OK guys so I am pretty pissed right now :angryfire and I have to rant and vent a little while to process this.

First let me say my brand new 2006 TL is just 2 1/2 months old with just 4800 miles on the odometer. I installed an AEM CAI 1500 miles ago. Didn't worry about anything, I've read posts like this: Ohttps://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145066&highlight=void+warranty I also have done the resonator mod 500 miles ago.

In another thread I explained how I have a little thud sound on startup. Just thought I'd stop by the dealer and have him inspect to make sure it was nothing major. I went to McGrath Acura in Morton Grove.....(maybe I shouldn't have...https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/movie-i-robot-senator-orrin-hatch-147358/ Coincidentally I see Tim and his HOTT TL!) The service advisor is pretty friendly and pleasant. For the 1st time ever I couldn't reproduce the problem. (I knew that would happen!) I think it's maybe because the car was hot and the engine would have to cool. The tech checks here and there and here and there and drives it a couple times. Then he has a back and forth discussion with the service advisor. Awhile later the tech comes to me and says "Well I can't really reproduce your problem, but there's something more important wrong----both your front bushings are broken!" I'm thinking ya OK! I gotta see this! Sure enough we went under the car and they were gone. I asked, OK how could this happen? My car still smells brand new for Pete's sake! His answer???

The service advisor changes his tone to a colder one now.... "Well.....you changed your intake to an aftermarket one didn't you? I also noticed you changed your resonator. Well anytime you do something like that you void your warranty." I was like whaaaa??? OK I know all about the fact that if your aftermarket accessory caused a problem then I'm screwed. But what's the correlation here I asked and he says, "Well the thing is anytime you add lots of horsepower like that you're putting stress on components that weren't designed for that. Since your car is putting out so much horsepower it broke the suspension bushings." He and I both new he was BSing totally. I felt like he was talking to me like I was some kind of idiot. I told him 1st of all a resonator does nothing to change the power. The diameter of the Magnaflow vs.stock was the same and it does nothing to restrict/increase flow. There is no change in backpressure. A resonator only affects sound (resonator...def-resonate....duh?) If I had changed mufflers or headers, yeah I could be making a bit of HP. As for the CAI I told him that the car makes just a modest increase of HP. Most CAI yield 5-7 hp if that. Many on this board have come up with figures 20hp+ (I don't know if I can agree. I think I would feel more of a difference from stock) AEM's figures show 19hp increase, but I would trust that the least.

At any rate he asks OK if it wasn't for power, then why I did the mods. I told him I thought the TL sounds too quiet and doing these mods made the car sound sporty and there is a bit more power. But there's no kind of power that's gonna break some control arm bushings! It's not like it's supercharged or something. He says it dosen't matter. The car is not designed for that kind of power and even the new type-S has upgraded bushings just to deal with this. I told him the intake was just installed 1500 MILES ago. There's NO way a bushing that is designed by Acura (not by Daewoo) designed for thousands of miles and years of service like is gonna go out in 1500 miles just because of a few measly HP. And I told him you may think I'm a nut driver and I drive over speed bumps at 85mph but my wife is actually the primary driver and the car travels in the city rarely above 60mph and she drives like a grandma. I feel these dudes could source no cause for the bushings to go on such a new car so decided to blame it on something. He was talking apples and oranges here. It's not like I hydrolocked the engine, that would be a different cause/effect relationship and I would eat the costs. He's talking about a engine component causing a suspension compnents to fail? That's like saying I put a backup camera in and my muffler expoded or that I put a rear spoiler on and it caused premature tire wear. LOL. GIMMIE A BREAK!!! The tech was actually much nicer a guy than the advisor. He said "OK I'll talk to the service manager and let him know the situation. Contact him and maybe he'll approve the repair. There have been certain cases where he has allowed it even if it is against your warranty. Let's see and try our best." Thinking this may work I didn't start a fight or argue even though I was ticked. I stayed a nice guy and left.

I sought for some advice. My best friend is an area service manager for GM. When it comes to giving the nod for warranty repairs he's the man. He tells me he's seen it all the time and I'm gonna be the loser! Companies make acessories that are approved and those may be overpriced, but for a reason, because it's covered with a warranty. He says anytime you put aftermarket ANY stuff it's a death sentence for the warranty and it's totally up to the discretion of the dealer whether to cover or not. I asked him what about my rights and laws (like the MAGNUSON MOSS WARRANTY ACT?) http://www.magnusonproducts.com/magnusonmoss.htm he says "What a joke, screw that!! You will go before a BBB arbitrator and they will have specialists that will link that CAI to that bushing somehow and you WILL LOSE!" I said OK doesn't he have to prove that the CAI is the DIRECT cause of the problem? He said nope they don't have to prove anything, all they have to do is convince an arbitrator who is an independent person from BBB who knows nothing about cars. There will be a whole team on their side present; A service manager, tech, area service manager even maybe the owner of the dealer and all you'll have is a lawyer (if you can afford it) Even if it seems apples and oranges they can twist it, make it sound so good and I have nothing to stand on. For example he said "A CAI could by intoducing more air into the engine change the vibration characteristics of the engine thereby producing strain and vibration through the engine mounts ultimately producing damage at the suspension bushings. Total BS but coming from an Acura specialist it will sound good to an arbitrator." I will always sound like I don't know what I'm talking about because they do this all the time and also they know the car 10 times better than me. They can also say that because I'm an owner that upgrades the car perfomormance-wise that can paint the picture that my driving habits can be more harsh and abusive than the average customer, even if my wife drives like a grandma. I said that they can't allege nonsense like that and it's their word vs. mine. He said yup they make up BS and it works 90% of the time. He said there is no use fighting, arguing, complaining, there is NO way I can win. (I told him I'll go to Acura administration, but he said that it'll never end and they'll prolong the process and in the end I STILL won't win.) I can just hope they'll be nice and just let it slide. Dealerships deal with this all the time, it's their loophole and it's their way to save money with warranty repairs and make people pay.

So I asked what I can do if they don't agree. He said either go to another dealer who won't notice the CAI or use the escuse or just pay for the repair!! I told him option 2 is out of the question. I just bought the freakin car. I'm NOT going to pay for this repair! I will go to court if I have to. I have no regrets of putting in this CAI, 1000s of us out here have done it.

All I have to say is all of this is so so RIDICULOUS! I hope nobody else has to deal with this type of treatment just because we love our cars and mod them. It's our property, our possession and our expression. These dealers tout "warranty this and that" just to sell but they'll do ANYTHING to back out from their commitments and obligations to their customers. In the meantime I hope this is bad press for Morton Grove Acura service! Comments, opinion, advice?

simont53

put the old intake back on and try a different dealer?

ubnpast

yes, try the stock intake. Was that quote really needed?

(edit by mod Ron A: I fixed the quote. You were right-the entire post quote was definitely not needed.)

Mr. Hill

WOW when I had my 2003 Marauder I had put a CAI, 4:10 rear end gears,

and long tube header exhaust and they always did warranty repairs no questions

asked. I remember seeing a big sign saying somthing like 'If any aftermarket mods

cause the problem there is no coverage' or somthing to that degree. But man, thats

just bull. Sorry.

ding069

my BMW had a short ram on it and they changed almost everypart of the intake system, mass airflow sensor included which is touching the short ram and about $2000 worth of other "unexplainable" repairs to the engine. any of them could have been linked to the short ram, but they let them all pass.
my service advisor at acura seems cool, hooked me up on all my a-spec parts. i hope i never have a prob with my car that whey won't want to cover, i drive kinda hard.

subinf

are service computers linked between dealerships? i can't think of a reason why they wouldnt be

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Exact question that popped into mind. Well according to my friend from GM he says that service records stay at the dealer since they are franchises. Only that particular dealer or the owner has access to it. Any warrantied work will go centrally to GM since GM is paying for it. That is the only information that is shared between dealers. He doesn't know how Acura works but he's banking that it works the same.

As for reinstalling the CAI, that was my friend's advice and a no-brainer. I just didn't want to get too detailed here on my exact POA because you never know who can be reading these threads. I am trying ANY way around that last resort because it took me 5 freakin hrs to put the AEM with the rerouting of hoses, drilling those rivets etc etc. I just don't wanna do all that all over again if I can help it. It doesn't help that I don't have a garage and it's getiin cold out. In the end though it looks like I'll be doing it anyways. It's a better alternative to high blood pressure and a lawsuit.

Final

Yea this is true. I personally wouldnt have gone to the stealership with aftermarket mods on. Before I took my car in to be looked at I called them and made sure they wouldnt do anything about the aftermarket wheels.

BarryH

If you go to another dealer, even with the stock intake, the car's service record is flagged. The new dealer now risks not getting paid for the warranty work by Acura since the first dealer documented (rightly or wrongly) that the CAI caused the problem. Your next step is to talk to the regional rep and hope he sides with you. If not, and they fight it, you'll be without a car for a long time unless you pay for the repair out of pocket and get reimbursed if you win the arbitration. Acura's in no rush so you're talking about many months to get this resolved. Good luck.

crazymjb

People suck... But I am surprised they turned down a simple warranty job they could have scored some cash on.

Mike

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Yes this was documented by the dealer in the record of what happened but is this shared info between dealers? My friend from GM who is a regional sales manager said it does not work like this at GM. Are you sure for a fact that my car can be flagged like this? He says that only warrantied work info goes centrally to Acura to which any dealer can have access to. Its the only info that Acura is interested in since they are measuring losses and improving data and engineering. They can care less what I pay out of pocket and from that standpoint it's pure profit for them. If I am going to get flagged then I don't want to go through the hassle of removing the CAI. I just better roll up my sleeves.

MpegtwoTL

ouch man thats tough. it seems though that you way to many parts on your car to replace back to stock. i would ask around on the board and see if anyone with similar mods has been to a dealer for warranty repair in ur area. check the other forums as well(cl,rl,tsx). tough break man. hope it works out. I've had bad experience with an acura dealer in the houston area as well. what ever happened to customer service?

i guess acura of morton grove doesnt want repeat business.

CobraGuy

You need to understand Magnussen/Moss. You won't fall under that act. It was designed to deal with stock replacement aftermarket parts. In other words, you change your filters, plugs, etc to a different brand than Acura. As long as those parts meet factory specs, they cannot deny you warranty. However, when you modify the car to a different state than was designed and engineered by the factory, all bets are off. Your buddy at the GM dealership is exactly right. It now becomes the call of the service manager whether or not he decides to ignore the mods and warranty the work.

03/04 Cobra owners have been down this road a lot. We have intimate experience with this and the Magnussen/Moss act. You will not win that argument.

Personally, in your case, he was a fool not to do the work. He just lost a good customer. Even though he is legally sound on his decision, there is no way your mods caused the problem.

dan.....k

iTrader: (1)

That really sucks. I am s/c and still get all warranty work done by my dealership. I would try and go to another dealership.

pimpin-tl

Acuras do not share infomation with other dealers. Nissan/Acura/Toyota all do this. Even if you want to pull warranty claim work lets say at dealer #2 and you been going to Dealer #1 for work, they can't pull the records without contacting that dealer. This is also the same for Acura. They only communicate with Acura when the repair was done.

So pull the intake off, take it to another Acura dealer, and you will be fine.

Jotas

I feel for you. I think it's total BS what the dealer is throwing at you and I don't blame you for being upset about having to now deal with what clearly doesn't seem to have anything to do with your after market accessories.

The only thing I've done since taking delivery two weeks ago, is change out bulbs to and put in LEDS. I'm hopeful that's still OK under the standard warranty agreement. Good luck and keep us posted.

mavz44

All else aside....I can't believe that the Acura dealership would decline a job that would make them money!

geekybiker

I can't believe that. My jaw would be on the floor if someone told me a CAI caused suspension bushings to break. There is zero connection there. Even though McGrath is my closest dealer, you can bet I wont be going for service there with that attitude.

Deffinately take it up with the regional rep. Most likely they'll tell the deal to DIAF.

jzacuto

In most states it's very inexpensive to file a small-claims suit. If you can't get anywhere, I'd get an estimate to have the repairs done at a non-dealership, Acura-authorized repair center then sue for that amount plus any incidentals you might expect. Then in court it is the dealers burden of proof to prove that the CAI caused the bushings to fail, which they will not be able to prove. If that's the case, then you'd probably get either a judgement against the dealership or a court order forcing them to enforce the warranty under the Magnusson-Moss act.

Just a thought. Very, very best of luck to you. This sucks BADLY and reflects VERY poorly on Acura.

Also some information you might want to check out on Magnusson-Moss can be found on SEMA's site at: http://www.semasan.com/main/main.asp...ANcom/HomePage

And some more at: http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

gqchicago

Why don't you just CALL another dealership or stop by...and discuss the situation with them on the phone? Explain how you have a CAI and bad bushings, and want it fixed under warranty, and another dealer gave you a hard time about it. I'm willing to bet that if you call 3-4 other dealerships in the area one of them is going to be willing to help you... (probably the first one you call).

You've got nothing to lose by trying to make some calls and just get someone else to handle the problem for you, they won't even know your name / car / etc unless you decide to bring it in to them.

It sounds a lot easier than trying to fight the knuckleheads at that dealership or arguing with Acura Corporate, or worse yet, going to court / etc. Wouldn't it just be easier if you could just find another local dealership to fix it, under warranty?

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Are you absolutely sure about this for a fact? It is so true they are losing a potential custmomer here but here's how I see it; They won't make as much $$ for in warranty repair as much as out of warranty. I just bought the car so for the next 4 yrs if anything most repairs will be in warranty. Also I came from CT and bought the car from PA. I'm not their customer I literally walked in from the street.

Also this company, McGrath seems to be doing reall well. They have a big-time monopoly in the Chicagoland area. Their dealerships are always hustling and bustling with people. Their drive-in service is more like a McDonald's Drive-thru. I haven't seen this at east coast dealerships. They have at least 3 dealerships and are planning more. They also own Lexus, BMW etc etc,. so many other dealerships, they're huge. So I don't think they'll feel threatened they lost 1 customer because I think generally the opinion around here is "they're the best". Well maybe I would have said the same if they weren't trying to screw me. I bought a couple parts from them and when I 1st drove the car in they were a class A act. Then I went from customer to enemy.

pimpin-tl

I have had to deal with warranty issues before with dealers and the other dealer never knows about what happened at the other one.

But other dealers seeing the records definitely won't happen.

jag123

take the intake off and go to another dealer

gqchicago

The McGrath in Morton Grove is NOT the same McGrath that owns the other car dealerships. My co-worker bought his Acura at McGrath Acura Westmont, tried to take it into McGrath Acura Morton Grove and they told him they wouldn't wash his car for free, give him a loaner, anything basically, and that it's 100% not the same owner!

So...same name, NOT the same owners! Don't be fooled into thinking you can buy from one and go get service from the other! (They don't hide this, they'll tell you if you ask).

geekybiker

Isnt the loaner for service a acura TLC thing, not a dealer thing?

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Oh yeah now I remember the advisor telling me there are 2 different brothers who own various buisnesses etc etc. Some soap opera I didn't car to hear about... Anyways to not offer loaners/car washes etc. is totally unprofessional. If you serviced a MB or BMW there is no such thing, it's practically policy to provide the services as necessities. These are not plain Hondas, I thougt this was a "luxury" nameplate? I can't fly back to PA to my original dealer. Trust me I would if I could because they were great.

Well I've gotten through stage 1. I talked to the service manager. He was nice to deal with and he tried to package the bad news as good as possible to keep from getting me upset. He said D_I_T_T_O what my friend from GM said....even the part that because my car is getting performance mods that the company's stance is that some high-performance driving is going on somewhere. He says he has NEVER seen bushings go that fast before except for maybe 1 case. There is no cause to blame so they can only assume the 1 thing different than from other cars they see. They don't know what my CAI can or can't do. The power it makes/detracts or anything. They can just assume that because it wasn't designed by Acura that it has to be contributing somehow. I said look what's the problem if I like to mod my car? That makes you want to void the warranty? I reassured me that of course modding the car is my buisness but it carries some risk. He also said that my warranty is not voided nor have I been flagged or something. They just couldn't blame the failure on anything else and they don't have a video camera to see my driving habits. He said if I were to pay out of pocket the bill would be in the ballpark of $800!!!! So now that I know the gravity of this I have to really play smart.

The only difference in advice I got from him vs. my friend is that he offered some hope and said I may not necessarily lose. He said to go to stage 2 and talk to Acura Client Services. And if that doesn't work go to Stage 3 and go to BBB and theres good chance I may win. I told him aren't my chances slim? And he admitted the cause-effect is pretty indirect here and Acura may just do it to make me happy. I told him I was looking for some easy way out of this and take care of it at a nominal level instead of proceeding to near-lawsuit levels. He said he just had to follow company policy and do things as he's told. He said a regional rep has more decision power. But I need to get to stage 3 to get his attention. Well.....I think what I have to do here is a no-brainer so I'll keep you guys posted on what develops.....OK so no more bad press for McGrath......and if you go to Morton Grove, make sure you go bone-stock. I'll say they are pleasant to deal with but they are not gonna do any favors for you! I think the pissy RSX boys with boy-racer mods who have been rolling through there gave em a few lessons.

BarryH

Acura uses a central records system. My car was purchased and serviced in NJ and all of the car's service history (including oil changes which aren't warranty work) was available to my new dealer when I moved to Chicago. GM uses the same type of system.

shayan

iTrader: (1)

Take it to Ed Napelton Acura and tell them the same problem that you told the guy at the previous dealer. Dont say anything about the Intake or the bushings and let them bring the bushings part to your attention. If they denie you warrenty work because of the intake, then take off the intake and take it to another dealer.

good luck

pimpin-tl

Barry, yes they can only if the work was completed. Since they never worked on it, I doubt they closed a service order. So he can still try to take it to another dealer.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

I really need confirmation on this info because I'm about to go to another dealer and start all over again. It's no use if they are going to read the other dealer's notation.

For a FACT I can tell you that GM does not have a central record system except for warrantied repairs. This info is directly from my best friend. He's part of that department and he should know and I trust him 120% about this. About Acura, I am hearing 2 things on this thread. Anybody work for Acura before?

One indication I can tell you that they probably can't access my info is: When I 1st rolled up to Morton Grove, the advisor took down my VIN and he could tell my MFD and where and when I purchased my car. He then asked "Have you been here before?" I said "No" and then he proceeded to start from scratch and take all my info and enter it into the computer. Now if all the computers are linked, wouldn't he have at least known my name?? I'm going to another dealer and I'm gonna do everything A-Z the same all over again. I'm hoping that it works.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Right, that's what my friend said, the work has to be completed with an invoice. Any type of notes/inspection before actual work is done is only going to stay with that dealer. They have too many dealerships and too many customers to keep track of that much data. Is there anyone out there that has experienced different?

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

UPDATE!!!

OK guys time to resurrect this thread to keep up with the story. It's not over yet!

I took off my 18" A-spec rims thinking it could be some kind of factor. Went to dealer #2 in Nov 2006. Asked him to check the lower control arms and fix my subwoofer rattle. (My loaner had NO subwoofer rattle so I know it wasn't normal to have one. Yep, the dealer fixes that rattle all the time. They are well aware of the problem, know what to do and it is under warranty. No sense in tearing your trunk apart. Let them worry about it....it's free!) He says "Control arms?!? Why?" I said to just check them anyway.

End result? Nada! Says all is well with my suspension. Hmmm...Somebody is wrong here. Dealer #1 or Dealer #2. Only Dealer #3 can get to the bottom of this....

So I switch back to my A-spec rims (to rule that out as a problem) last Saturday I go to another dealer and ask him the fix my passenger seat rattle check the brake pads and the control arms. He says "Control arms?!?! Why?" I said I know, I know just do it. I told him I have no symptoms at all when driving the car and he says it just can't be with a car that has only 13k on it. I said just check it out anyways.

My inital impression of the advisor wasn't a great one. I thought OK looks like the kind of guy I may end up arguing with. I know he's going to say I did something to those control arms like Dealer #1. At the end though he ended up being great and serviced the car well. (fix that seat rattle! My car is rattle-free!) But guess what? He says NO PROBLEMS WITH YOUR CONTROL ARMS!

To recap: Dealer 1 = says problem with control arms
Dealer 2 = says no problems
Dealer 3 = says no problems

So what's going on here guys? I think it's obvious though a number of things might be going on here:

My plan was to go back to dealer #2 if dealer #3 had agreed with dealer #1 and ask him why he missed it and ask him to do the work. There is a chance that the dealer brushed me off and didn't look at the control arms seriously, but chances are very slim that could have happened TWICE. Most likely Dealer #1 is trying to pull my leg. But why??? My plan had been to now go back to Dealer #1 and ask what is going on and to prove their findings.

Back when I took the car to Dealer #1 he took me under the car and showed me some "play" in the bushings and convinced me something was wrong. That's why I believed him and that is what leaves me a bit confused here.

Instead of spanking me for my mods Dealer #3 complimented me. I like your tail lights. Really cool on that LED interior and those lighted sills!

Dealer #1 (McGrath of Morton Grove) Is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth now. I am about ready to show these findings to the General manager, regional rep or someone else in corporate. I want to ensure once and for all my control arms are perfect......and HELL NO my AEM has NOTHING to do with it!

deke

Why dont you get under there and look for yourself.

Oorrr do the normal thing and go back to dealer one, have um put it on the lift and show you the part that is bad..

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

Take the AEM off and go to Continental Acura in Naperville.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

btw .. my car used to do that "thud" on startup .. then.. after a few thousand miles .. it went away .. i have over 70,000 miles on my 2004 TL.

leedogg

Sounds like dealer 3 is your new dealer

geekybiker

Mine started doing that too. But only when it was warm enough for the AC to turn on in auto mode. Im guessing its the magnetic clutch on the compressor.

SuperStar

From my experience, McGrath acura fucking sucks. I rarely go there because they are inept and retarded. I use those phrases for the whole usage of their meanings.

Not only do they not fix things, they make excuses. On top of that they have hit my car and argued with me about the damage.

They are a bunch of clowns.

Read this to help yourself some more: http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm

ebs312

Messed up. Hope things work out for you.

This thread has me thinking now, there's no way a dealer can void/refuse to do warranty work for cosmetic changes to the car right? Like swapping out the tails for the type s ones and saying i won't do work on the car b/c of the changes?

someone put me at ease.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

When I changed the oil a few months ago I did go under there and saw nothing. I know where the bushing is, but how to test if it's bad? That rubber around there is all intact.

Like I said Dealer #1 showed me the "play" in the bushing. (maybe he was playing with my head). He wedged a bar and pushed upwards and that area where the lower control arm bushing is had movement. He did it on both sides. I said "Isn't that normal?" He gives me a weird look and says "Uhhh, no way!" like I was someone who didn't know what a steering wheel was. Well I have seen other techs grabhug a wheel off the ground and try and rock it to see for play etc. But I've never seen a tech do it this way. But I believed him at the time.

Why don't I believe him now? Because 2 dealers found nothing. Plus I have had expereince with bad control arms on other cars. I used to own a BMW 5-series which is notorious for these bushings to wear. It's an expensive job and a heavy car so it's something you have to put up with. I did my control arms TWICE and I am very accustomed to the possible symptoms like the shimmy at 50mph or heavy braking, the clunks.

My Acura TL? Exhibits NONE of these. If my control arms were "shot", as dealer #1 said, how can my car drive 100% perfect?? 13k miles, 7 months old, my wife drives like a grandma. My car is a baby, give me a break.