BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

thanks everybody. i woke up this morning sore as a bitch, and remembering last night. flash backs... airbag smells.... sucks

the brakes were installed at a shop a few days about. i dont know what happened anymore, my head was spinning. i make this turn several times a day every day, i the car just kept going straight.... man.. i was i didnt go out to dinner @ cozymel's... should have gone to applebees! lol.

so ive been playing phone tag all day with the insurance company. let's see what happens and how long it takes...

thanks for the support everybody.. i know its a hard thing for me to grasp. but i keep thinking about jp04tl. he lucked out, and came out with a nicer and hotter 07 TLS..

oh, and p.s. this car is SAFE.......

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

To those who asked it was installed professionally. We installed and we bed the pads in. In the ten to fifteen minutes we drove in the car together there was absolutely no noise and the brake performance was perfect. Before everyone starts placing blame on ROTORA, you should consider a few things Allon has already said:

1. This car has had two master cylinders already replaced.
2. The noise he is talking about was already occuring before the brakes.
3. The lines were properly bled. I did it once with a vacuum bleeder and once the old fashioned way. If he had a problem with air in the lines we would have know immediately, not 200 miles later.

I don't know how it happened exactly but from his posts it seems that he braked hard, ABS engaged, but he had too much momentum to turn the car. His wheels are also very heavy and I'm sure that didn't help the situation. It doesn't really seem to be anyone's fault; just an accident.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Allon, I'm glad you're okay. I'm sure you will get everything worked out and come out with something you will be happy with.

timmahh

Psshh.. that'll buff right out

Glad you are ok.. was the street wet or anything? Were you going excessively fast through the turn? (Just wondering)

And.... I just remembered you have after market brakes; I know you said you bedded them and all that - did you ever get any ABS or VSA lights on the dash? When you did your hard braking did you notice any wheel skid or a tendenacy to lock up ?

ChicagoBurbs

I agree completely with your statement. It's rediculous, even assinine to point fingers before any investigation into the cause is complete. There are so many components that may have triggered or contributed to the brake lock-up, and any one of them may be at fault. Shit happens. Find out what happened this time before jumping to conclusions.

timmahh

LEARN TO SPELL IDIOT.

tendency

brettallica

Sorry to hear about your beautiful Blackura TL being so mangled. Looks like it might be time for a little dubyah-dee-pee

timmahh

blackura im such a tard I read your replies and you answered every question so ignore my stupidity!

But.. hope all goes well - no more NBP!! (Maybe the WDP people set you up? =p)

VmtSquad

iTrader: (1)

You're starting 2 scaring me with the curse.....

So, wich color are you gonna get now ????Even it's not balck, I sugest that you go to a church and make a preast bless your new car....lol if you beleive in a curse you have to beleive in the oposite.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

It really shouldn't make a lot of BBK users nervous. Who is to say it was the BBK? The TL M/T and the TL-S have a Brembo BBK. Should they be nervous when driving? No they have more leverage than those with 1 piston calipers but it doesn't mean they are going to have a problem. You just have to learn how to brake with the vehicle with your increased braking power.

ChrisQ1980

I'm sorry to hear about the accident. The most important thing is that you and your g/f are ok.

I am also curious if the VSA or ABS light was on. It does say in the owners manual that aftermarket wheels can cause both of those systems to malfunction. The brake kit may have malfunctioned. Do those brakes work with the factory sensors?

This doesn't seem like driver error to me. You also said the road was dry.

godfather2

blackura, at least you pulled out of there mostly intact. a word of advice: COMPILE A LIST OF ALL MODS ON YOUR CAR (include taxes and labor paid on install). TYPE IT UP AND SEND THAT LIST TO YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY WITH A FORMAL LETTER STATING YOU NEED TO BE REIMBURSED FOR ITEMS LOST IN THE CRASH. i did the very same thing when my civic got totalled - bought civic for $13,800 and 5 years (and 60,000 + miles later) I GOT A FAT CHECK FOR MY OLD RIDE = $14,600!!!! good luck

ps. i had state farm ins. at the time

timmahh

Well not to hijack the thread here but I hate to say it.. Would we being looking at pictures of a totaled TL had the factory brake system not been "broken"? The brakes may have worked (they obviously gripped enough to lock the wheel) but it's pretty obvious his ABS system was no longer functional. Perhaps the stock brake system isn't able to pulse the larger calipers. I know the TL MT6 has Brembos that are bigger; but do you know if Acura changed the fluid distribution when using the larger Brembos? Did he have cross drilled and slotted rotors? Maybe one of the slots caught the pad and locked it.

Stock BBs don't make me nervous; infact stock anything doesn't make me nervous because if it fails you know it's (typically) not your fault; adding aftermarket brakes make me nervous because you're messing with a system that was designed and engineered to perform a certain way under certain circumstances (no matter how good you are there's always a chance for error when installing aftermarket items).

So not to place the blame on the installers, driver, or the brakes themselves, but it's pretty obvious ABS was not functioning at that point.

godfather2

also, i'm with excelerate on this one. don't let this one/single incident turn u off from a bbk. there are tens of thousands of people on american roads with aftermarket brakes and history shows that problems have been minimal at best

Johndoyle

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of fixing it until the adjuster declares it a total. As for getting your parts, you may be able to if you have the original parts to replace them. Generally, if it's a total loss, they effectively buy the car from you and it's their salvage from that point on and they don't want you messing with their salvage. The sad part is the aftermarket modifications generally don't add a lot to the car's value (except to another enthusiast), so you won't recover much of that unless they let you take your stuff.

In any case, don't rule out fixing it. It's a late model, front damage only and worth a lot of $$. They could easily spend $20K to fix it. I don't know if you'd want it after that, though.

Anyway, sorry about your bad luck but glad you're OK. I know it's a stupid cliche that you're probably tired of hearing, but the car is only a piece of metal and they're making more of them every day. If you came away with your arms, legs, life, you're doing good. In the long run, cars can be replaced. Good luck.

John

drdamian

sorry for your loss bro... it sucks bc i remember you saying that you were going to get rid of it after the show.. hope everything works out for you and glad you are not seriously hurt.

rondog

iTrader: (1)

sooooo, I guess you won't be making it to the meet. I'm sorry bout the whole thing, I had a near accident experience where I was lucky there was no wall, just grass. that shit made me calm down with speeding a whole lot (not to say your situation was the same). Sometimes you have to know your ride, like having symptoms and and what they mean. sounds like something more along the lines of the master cylinder or pressure, which you said you had issues from before, the new BBK probably only made the same issues more noticeable. I still have trust in Rotora and I also believe that the install was done corectly (limited info to base on). I just hope you can find a new BETTER car or get this one fixed, I know how deperessing it can be when you lose your baby. good luck, try to make it out to the meet anyway, nice way to relax and enjoy yourself.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

ABS did work, that is why he said their was a vibration. You still retain ABS with all the BBK's. A BBK is nothing more than a larger disc, with a larger caliper, SS brake lines, performance pads, and a caliper bracket. It has nothing to do with ABS sensors or anything. In fact, the previous week I installed a BBK on another 06 Acura TL and that car stops fine also.

timmahh

Ok i'm a little pissed.. I edited my message within 5 mins but I took more than 5 mins to edit so my entire edit was gone and I had some good questions in it..

Well here's my next question.. Does VSA tie into the braking system at all? Or is it throttle body related only?

I'm wondering if changing the factory brake setup affected the brake distribution ratio and caused a problem. When you did the bedding i'm guessing you were doing a straight start-stop; no turning while doing the hard braking right? Perhaps with the new setup while turning and braking sent out of range data (by out of range I mean data that would trigger the system) to the VSA system and it tried to correct the problem. When you're traveling in a straight line and you hard brake all of your wheels should be stopping at around the same rate - I don't know what VSAs threshold is before it detects a problem but maybe when you were turning and braking it was enough to set it off. Normally it probably would have been fine - but if it detected the problem and sent a good amount of fluid to one of the front calipers coupled with the new bigger brakes it may have overcome the ABS systems ability to pulse that particular caliper, resulting in a lockup and loss of steering control.

Does anyone know what the factory brake distribution? Is it front:rear 2:1 ? Maybe the bigger setup changed this ratio..

Anywho just my - not trying to blame anyone just throwing ideas out there.


If VSA doesn't have any part in the brake system then you can ignore this post

johnny--2k

ummm....to me this seems like NO ABS at all.....

timmahh

ABS should not cause a vibration you will feel the pedal pulsing and hear mechanical sounds but it shouldn't cause any odd vibrations.

^^ Further, the ABS system is not constantly pulsing the brakes it only does so when triggered. Normal or light braking should not engage the ABS system unless there is a problem.

DaInFaMMuS1

oh man im so sorry to hear about that, trust me i know exactly how u feel. I lost my 1st CL a week after i installed like 4 mods on it and 2 days before the install of like 1k more in mods. Im glad to hear you're ok though. Make sure u take physical therapy seriously, cuz after my accident i thank god i had that shit, and my back still isnt the same (front end collision too). I think u should get a red tl-s now lol

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Yes ABS is a pulsating of the pedal. Some ppl might consider it a vibration. Do you really think that he didn't brake hard when he realized he was going too fast into a turn?

Regardless of whatever you may think, you were not there and I was not there. So let's leave speculation and theory out of this. Allon is fine. ROTORA's BBK's have worked fine in tens of thousands of cars. Allon's car already had some issues with the brakes. Maybe it wasn't even the brakes. Maybe it was road conditions. Maybe it was the wheels. Maybe something malfunctioned. All I know is that he was able to brake for almost 200 miles with the BBK. He said he had some noise that he had before the BBK and a slight vibration with light brake pressure, which was probably due to uneven pad distribution and he needed to do the bed in procedure again.

timmahh

so i apply normal force to slow down to go right. but as soon as i pressed the brake, the car began to vibrate and shake, and not stop. then i heard my tires screeching.


He says as soon as he pressed the brakes; he did not say he pressed them lightly and then gave them full force when he noticed the problem.

But again, i'm not trying to lay blame or be rude i'm just curious to see what caused the problem.

Eoanou

Listen even with stock brakes, the TL tends to plow when you apply the brakes, it's typical in a car with a brake distribution of roughly 60 to 40. I've done the same thing with my TL except I went on grass.


How were the tires at the time of the accident? Were they good tires with a fair amount of tread?

When I bailed with my TL I came around the corner a bit to fast and it was a very cold night, so I had barely any grip from my tires, I hit the brakes and cut the wheel the car went to the right a little bit but still couldn't stop. I also hadn't realized I was going as fast as I was.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

man that sucks.. u had a nice ride... hope it works out for you.. and i am glad that you and your girl made it out okay...

KJSmitty

A lot of speculation on items we will probably never get the whole story on..

Big picture, the "brakes" worked....... IE - pressure from brake peddle resulted in calipers applying pressure on rotors further resulting in the wheels/tires to stop turning etc..

Now, was it an existing issue with the stock master cylinder/brake system, or an "incompatibility" issue with the stock master cylinder/ABS brake system and the brake upgrades, that resulted in the brake system/ABS to not function adequately in keeping the calipers from locking on the rotors etc..??? That is the question.

- Overall, it was an unfortunate accident that thankfully no-one got hurt.

- Brake/mod wise, I (and one would hope Rotora) would definitely like to know if "compatibility" was the root cause of the ABS not functioning properly etc..

Not pointing any fingers but it basically comes down to 2-3 possible factors and compatibility is among that list...


Good luck

coykiam

OMG Allon!!! I just see your car a couple nights ago near herricks road...I think u were at a stoplight and I was turning. Not to mention how awesome it looked last saturday...Im just glad you and your girl are ok. Hopefully you'll get some $$$ back from all the mods.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Exactly! That's what I meant when I said I would be nervous about having a BBK installed.

In my mind, vibration is NOT the ABS pulse. Up here where we get snow all the time, we get to use ABS all of the time and I wouldn't describe it's pulsing as a vibration. You can hear all of the wild electronics along with the feel in the foot.

So when he said there was a vibration just prior to lockup, I assumed something went terribly wrong which resulted in the brakes locking up.

Since the Brembo's on the 6MT is designed and tested from the factory, the comparisons being made to an aftermarket BBK is crazy. Sure the brakes are bigger on the 6MT but it's the testing and compatibility that is the difference.

ttribe

Condolences on the loss of the car, but I am very glad to hear that both you and your girlfriend walked away relatively unscathed. Another testament to just how well-built this car is when it comes to surviving an accident. Best of luck with getting this resolved.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Allon will be responding shortly. He did apply heavy brake pressure. He just wasn't used to the new brakes. In his words "it was the hardest I have braked yet with the new brakes". He didn't absolutely slam them but he didn't apply them enough and he wasn't used to the increased brake force he was getting with the larger calipers.

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to hear this Black, you put a lot of work into that car.

Hope everything goes well with insurance. Glad you and your old lady are OK

PPLAPW

Glad to hear your okay man, also hope you get the whole insurance/car thing worked out... it can be a hassle!

VQPower37

sorry to hear about the car ... but like everyone said its a very good thing that you and your girl came out of it with nearly no injuries ... g'luck with the insurance ... looks like its time for a cbp tl type s

ILLustriousUA6

iTrader: (2)

next up.. white diamond pearl - S

Dam bro, sorry to hear about your ride but i'm just glad you&yo g/f came out ok.. you still goin to be on the Import tuner mag??

KB1Spec

iTrader: (4)

Wow...honest to say you are one of the few with the nicest NBP here with a perfect set up. Hope you are ok. Sad to see what a terrible accident on your car and you put so many efforts into it.

EnvisionTL

Sorry to hear about your loss. Like most, when I saw the thread post I thought to myself, "dang something else? and right after HIN too..." but when I saw the pics, my heart dropped! Hopefully you will find yourself in another TL (maybe TL-S ) Good luck to you and glad that you and your gf made it out with only minor injuries.

KJSmitty

I'm not sure what you're saying here.....

As mentioned, several variables could have effected what took place, but brake peddle pressure/brake force (w/exception to the initial application etc.) has nothing to do with whether or not ABS functions or continues to function. ABS is based off of whether or not the vehicle has velocity and if tires are turning at the same speed.
My curiosity is purely based on whether this "increased brake force" is incompatible with the TL's ABS/braking system operating limits?? I have a hard time believing that given most ABS operations,, but I have to concede that the TL system may not be capable of modulating that monster "brake force"...

Cheers

chill_dog

Glad you're ok. Whether the car's fixable or not (probably is due to cost vs. value), you can still part out the parts...you won't get your $10k back, but you can get something. Good luck with all of the BS you have to deal with and with finding a new car.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

That was a typo. I meant to say:

He didn't absolutely slam them but he did apply them enough and he wasn't used to the increased brake force he was getting with the larger calipers.

In terms of ABS that is what I was saying. ROTORA's BBK does not affect the function of ABS and it works in conjunction with it. And it is designed to work with the stock master cylinder and the stock ABS setup.

Ask Michaelbenz, RonJon, myself, and sundry other members on this forum who have first hand experience. The kit is compatible with ABS and with the stock master cylinder.