wavshrdr

Here is where I am at. I drove the RL and while I liked it a lot, it didn’t seem to have quite the midrange punch of the TL and I had to really rev it to make it go. Other than that I like the car a lot but don’t want to spend that much $$$ on a car that I don’t think looks as good or feels as spunky as the TL. In person the RL was much better than in photos.

So at this point I pretty much have decided to buy a new rather than used TL which was what I was previously considering. I wanted to buy a TL last year but I couldn't get the deal I was looking for but negotiating is easier now. Now I am torn between the 6MT and the 5AT and still deciding between a leftover ‘04 or new ‘05. I looked through a bunch of past posts to get a better feel for the current car but now I have a few questions.

It looks like there aren’t any major changes between ’04 and ’05 model years. Can anyone outline the changes besides changing the seat belt anchors and supposedly changing how the memory feature works? Any other significant running changes that are important? I did notices the MY05 5AT has 1 mpg better highway mileage. Any idea why? Did they recalibrate the ECU or just variation in cars?

In regards to mileage, what are you getting with the 5AT and 6MT? What kind of RPMs at say 70mph in top gear for each car?

For those of you who bought the 6MT do you have any regrets that you didn’t buy the AT instead? How about those who bought the 5AT who ACTUALLY considered buying the 6MT, do you have any regrets with your decision?

It seems like if I do buy the 6MT that the resale could take a hit compared to the 5AT, any idea how much the difference might be after 2-3 years? My plan is drive the TL until they come out with a higher HP RL or at least an AWD TL. I was seriously considering buying another Audi or MB with AWD but at the moment I have a brutally fast AWD car and I am not that concerned with having AWD at the moment as the TL will not be too much of a daily driver not to mention dust was a big issue.

My bias is normally to buy a manual transmission whenever I can if it is available. I noticed something that makes me worry a bit about buying the 6MT vs. the 5AT. I noticed that according to Motor Trend who tested both versions, the 5AT out braked and out slalomed the 6MT version and tied it on their figure 8 loop. I would hope that the Brembos on the 6MT would have had some benefit and should have better fade resistance but the 5AT car CLEARLY out braked the MT in the 60 mph stop. Since I don’t plan on tracking the car but will occasionally enjoy back road sprints, are the brakes on the AT pretty good with good fade resistance and not prone to warping? On the MT, how has the brake maintenance been? I’ve heard less than stellar things about that with the Acura and the last Brembos I had personally required more upkeep.

Also how has the performance been in the winter and snow with the 6MT and 5AT? Where I live we have severe winters and sometimes I may actually have to drive the TL when there is a lot of snow out. My experience has been that auto trans is better in a FWD car in the snow. In my AWD cars it hasn’t mattered at all. What has been your experience?

Lastly I am sort of torn on colors. If I bought the 6MT I am leaning toward Silver/Black or Anthracite/Black and if I went 5AT I love the Pearl White/Parchment or possibly Silver/Black. Any thoughts? I want to stay away from black or the dark blue as again the snow and attendant dirty roads make it tough to keep a car clean. How do the lighter color interiors hold up? I noticed that Acura changed the leather seating areas too on the ‘05’s to a 3 panel setup compared to the ‘04’s I considered buying last year.

I have kids but they won’t probably spend too much time in the car but I am concerned that lighter color interior while show more wear but the White/Parchment has such a luxurious presence that I thought it might be more in keeping with the 5AT. Any color combos to DEFINITELY avoid. My concern with the white exterior which I think looks good on the car but you only have 2 choices of interior and I don’t think the Quartz would look good.

How has the paint quality been? I like the Anthracite a lot but I just think it might show too much dirt and scratches too easily. I know that depending on some colors it could be really tough to find some nice looking wheels as well.

Any and all help, thoughts and comments are appreciated. I know either one would be a great car. Since I don't plan to auto-x or track the car I am leaning toward the 5AT as its only a little slower in straightline speed and seems to handle as nice. I did notice that the 6MT does have bigger sway bars. In either form though I would like more power though. Any decent mods to improve the performance without voiding the warranty or making it way too loud? One other things that has me leaning toward 5AT is our traffic can be really bad at times with miles of bumper to bumper traffic. Not exactly the ideal combo for the 6MT but could be really sweet on the backroads just too bad my commute to work isn't on backroads.

Thanks!

Doctored5

I have a 2005 5AT. The major differences from the 04 are the tires-- Michelin & the seats-- 3 section supposedly reducing butt print problems. I've had my car for 1 month exactly, so I don't know about how it will handle in the winter yet. The brakes are fine from what I can tell. My gas mileage has been in the low 20s for suburban commuting, upper 20s on the one longer trip I took. I'll get some major highway mileage next week.

If you want to worry about something, there has been a history of transmission problems, from what I gather. I'm hoping that they've worked those out by now. If not, there's the 4 year warranty.

cM3go

6MT you won't regret it. I have loved driving my 6MT TL EVERYDAY!

wavshrdr

At this point I'd love the 6MT but they aren't in very good supply in my area and what is available is ugly color combos. I do a lot of highway driving and I think the 5AT might get better mileage for me because of the taller top gear. The engine turns about 20% less rpm than the 6MT.

My heart says buy the 6MT but logic tells since I don't plan on keeping it over 2 years the 5AT will be easier to get out of. If I didn't have 2 other manual transmission cars it would be no contest. OTOH my MB has the AMG tranny and it showed me how good s tiptronic/SS tranny could be. Unfortunately the Acura doesn't do it quite as well.

One big difference is that in the MB implementation of this concept the torque converter locks up in each gear so you have a direct connection in each gear so you have that feeling of being connected and have immediate deceleration when you let off the throttle. That is what I miss most about the auto in the TL vs. the 6MT. I can live with the slightly slower acceleration.

My biggest concern is it might be very hard to unload the 6MT down the road. I already experienced that in an Audi sedan where even though the 6MT really fitted the spirit of the car better than the auto I practically had to give it away at resale. There just wasn't the market for the 6MT version of the car. I took almost a 2K hit on the value of the car even though they started out at the same price like the TL. I don't like the 6MT $2,000 more than the 5AT.

I just want to buy the damn car and drive it at this point. They are both nice but I am still having trouble finding the colors I want. I'll probably go with the 5AT and then buy a RL in a year or two.

Thanks for the input from all of you.

Bobzmcishl

I have the 5at but drove the 6mt and liked it better. Unfortunately, my wife does not do manual shift. The mt is same as s2000 and Honda and it is very smooth. I agree about black; have a black beemer and it really shows the dirt. I'm surprised at how popular the anthracite color is. I would never get another black car. I am happy with my Redondo Red; would have preferred a deep bronze color like Nissan has but Acura only has the washed out bronze, which is boring. I am averaging about 22mph freeway/city driving. The car is great but it is not a BMW, in terms of handling. I also wish the car were RWD. I'm not sure I would buy another fwd car. But then again I live in California and don't need fwd for snow, etc. So far no quality problems other than the rims getting scratched because of the low profile tires and way they protrude. Also Acura service is expensive as I just found out.

Lore

I've driven both an 04 and an 05. I just got the 05 TL today as a loaner car - it had exactly 100 miles on it when I got it. Pretty amazing. It's actually the same exact car as mine (navi, color and all).

First thing I noticed was the noticeably lower growl the engine had compared to my 04. The hand brake seems to pull quietly where my 04 clicked when you pulled the hand brake. The steering seems slightly tighter but not enough where I could immediately tell a difference. I'll find out more if I hit the freeway.

I think it would be a good idea to get the 05 if the pricing isn't hugely different. Pay the extra $1000 to get the newer car (your resale value will be a little higher, too) and so you don't have to deal with the rattles.

Of course, the triple stitching is a huge plus, and the better tires will save you some grief down the road.

TLVR

Decisions, decisions! You might have too many options at this point. From a practical point I would go for a 2004, can be had for invoice or slightly below-saving you a couple of thou! Resales are easier having a AT. As for color I think that the anthracite is the coolest, real stealthy and it really hides dirt as well as the silver ones. The lighter interors really will show not only dirt but wear so much more as was noticed on even the parchment ones. My AT shows 2000 RPM at 70 mph, delivers 33 on long trips with AC on in 85F weather.Its a buyers market so enjoy!!

Hootsama

80 miles on my 05 Abyss Blue/Camel 6MT. Everything I hoped it would be...

Don't worry about finding a buyer when/if the time comes to sell. You're just looking in the wrong market. Some people demand MT... me being one of them... and good MT car, esp in the sedan or wagon realm, are hard to find in the US.

I see it as a huge bonus! Plus, it's a helluva lot of fun.

wavshrdr

Thanks for all the input. It seems that 6MT are so rare in my area primarily because no one wants to stock the. Heard that from 3 different dealers. One dealer told me the last 6MT they had set on the lot of several months. They have one coming in however that someone ordered but isn't going to take.

I don't think that I can live with a 6MT Ebony/Quartz. Our climate rains and snows too much so black is out of the question for exterior color. So the Anthracite is looking like a good choice because I can get Ebony interior and won't show the wear as much.

I did notice that the '05's have a "throatier sound" in the 5AT than the '04's did. I am still trying to figure out where they picked up the extra mpg on the highway. At this point I'll probably go with the 5AT even though I generally prefer the 6MT because most of my driving will be on interstates and not any really serious backroad running so the pluses of the 6MT will be negated and I'll deal with the higher revs at cruise.

If you can believe the fuel computer on the 2 cars I drove back to back, the 5AT got about 3 MPG better at 75 mph than did the 6MT. That is about 10% improvement and while I am not buying the car for fuel economy it won't hurt and the car seemed more relaxed at higher speeds.

Now all I need to do is find someone with a 6MT who wants to sell their stock swaybars and I'll upgrade a 5AT. It looks like I'll go with an Anthracite/Ebony combo and get the windows tinted and find some nice wheels. It looks like an '05 will be a better choice considering the deals in my market don't justify going with an '04 as I can't save enough money.

Thanks for the ideas.

wavshrdr

Meant to add one other thing. It gets really cold where I live and most manuals are miserable once you get below 5 degrees (F). In really cold temps it feels like the syncros are stuck and don't help out at all. Once you start getting to -5 you might as well forget the 1>2 shift as it just doesn't want to happen. For some reason it is easier to 1>3 shift. Even with good synthetics in the trannies it still is miserable. My 5MT AWD car takes a good 20-30 minutes of driving before you can even attempt a semi-quick 1>2 shift and it has Redline synthetic lubricants.

MR1

I too would love to have the M6 but have a 5AT on order, wife issue for one thing. While there is a market for a semi-lux manual trans, I think you are right on regarding resale. I have experienced it and have a friend going through it right now. Also, the dealers aren't stupid, if if sold well, they would order some. Either way, sounds like you have a good handel on what you want and what you're getting, enjoy.

Lore

Oh, the 05 has a louder turn signal and a louder chirp when you lock the doors.

rets

Long time no see, wavshrdr. Finally you seem ready to make your final decision. Since both cars refelct to the different personality of yours, it's good to find ways to merge them. Replacing swaybars and springs/suspensions/tires is the first step for you, you would be happy with the results.


Please keep us updated. Thanks.

Nitrotiger

6MT no dought go for it. the best thing is to drive both back to back and you will make your mind up right then and there at least i did trust me drive the auto 1st then the 6MT im sure you will do the same

SouthernBoy

In my area, the 6MT TLs are in demand and you would have no problem selling one. In fact, the TL night be a better bet with the manual than an automatic for the same reason a 3-series Bimmer with a manual is more in demand.

That said, I should claify that I have a VERY STRONG bias towards manual transmissions to the point that I would not even consider the purchase of a personal driving machine without a manual regardless of how nice it was in every other catagory. But I can tell you this. The TL was meant to have a manual. Drive one and you'll see.

Oh, mine turns 2000 RPM at 60 MPH in 6th gear.

missmyprelude

Typically, I find that if you have to ask about 6mt vs. AT, you're probably better off with an AT. Like SouthernBoy, I have a strong bias towards manual trans, so I would never buy anything else as long as I have a choice. Most people that drive manuals by choice feel somewhat the same in my experience. Those that don't feel strongly about it would feel at home in an AT. The reason I say this, is that although you seem to have thought this through and have looked at the pros and cons of each, you haven't pointed out the best thing about the MT - driver involvement. Nothing beats rowing through the gears. Anyone that enjoys driving MT understands that, and that is why they typically will not drive ATs given a choice. Traffic and other MT "cons" are tests to see who *really* enjoys shifting, and who are the fair weather fans of MTs.

wavshrdr

This has been the most difficult decision to make as I do like driver involvement. If this was going to my only car the 6spd would be a no brainer. In my area the 6spds just languish on the lots.

I lived in the North Ga. mountains again it would also be a simple choice. Unfortunately here there are not a lot of entertaining roads and rush hour traffic is some of the worst in the US. All these things have weighed heavily on my decision.

My heart kept saying buying the 6MT but my head says 5AT gives me 93-95% of what the 6MT with no penalty in rush hour traffic. Either way it is a great car. The motor is smooth and flexible.

I just returned from Europe where I drove a bunch of 6spd and cars w/ tiptronic trannies on the autobahn and it finally clenched my decision. I was loving crusing through the Alps and the Black Forest. Then as often happens I hit major construction and road delays. Go 5' and stop, go 15' stop, etc. etc. All my joy of the 6spd was erased when I went a whopping 15km in 1 hour (~10mph).

The way of the future will be the really smart tip trannies like in the new MBs and BMW (7spd auto) or like the SMG (sequential manuals). After driving a M3 Beemer with the SMG that is what I want but Acura doesn't make it. So now for sure I have decided on the 5AT (but wish it was a 7AT like one BMW I drove).

The engine is so torquey that you really don't get a huge benefit from a close ratio gearbox. I would really like a higher top gear on the 6MT so that the revs at 80 mph would be the same as the auto, instead it turns about 20% so fuel economy suffers as does engine longevity and what do you get in return? Maybe better roll-on acceleration on top gear.

[Off-topic] BTW have any of you driven a "sport" diesel? I drove a 3 series BMW (330d) which was incredibly fast and still got about 40mpg! I am talking mid to low 5 second 0-60 times and torque like that of a Viper! What a ride. It pulled like a solid 12 second car until you had to shift since diesels don't rev as high that means actual timed acceleration suffers. A diesel car that runs 5 sec. 0-60 actually pulls peak accerleration like a car running in the 4 second range it just doesn't sustain as long as a gas motor since they run out of revs around 5k. BTW, when is Acura/Honda going to bring their diesels to the US. Low sulfur diesel will be here soon. I tried the Honda Euro Accord (Acura TSX here) with a diesel and it was a nice package. Not super quick but no slug and mileage close to 45-50 mpg at a steady 70 mph.

Anyway I plan to finalize my purchase tomorrow. Thanks for all the input. If I didn't have my race WRX I'd buy the 6spd.

rets

Hopefully, I could drive some diesel in the future, whose engine used to easily generate super torque.

Really wish car makers could provide more choices and diversities of diesel sports in states.

wavshrdr

Rets- super torque is an understatement. I'll try and put some numbers in perspective so people can get an idea of what amount of "GO" I am really talking about. Just to refresh people on this board with a few simple thoughts about engines and cars.

Torque is what gives us our acceleration and horsepower determines top speed. Transmissions are simply "torque multipliers" that increase the torque to the wheels by taking advantage of the internal gear ratios and final axle ratio.

Where diesels really shine is with making lots of torque at low rpms. This makes them wonderful to drive in normal day to day situations but not quite as fast as some gas motors when accelerating at maximum potential as diesels don't rev as high or gather revs quite as quickly as they tend to have more rotating mass. The other plus is their efficiency is quite good.

So now I'll try and put this all into perspective now that we have a little common ground to work from. In the US we have had pretty low powered diesels compared to Europe. For example VW sells the most diesel cars of anyone in the US and all we get is the lowly little 1.9 TDI motor. It has all of 90HP but about 177 lb/ft of torque all at about 1,400 rpm!!! Now these numbers are at the crankshaft so you can figure about 75HP at the wheels and about 140 lb/ft torque at the wheels after drivertrain losses. So just off idle the motor is making peak torque. No waiting for revs to make it go. Though by comparison to the Euro version our model sucks by the torque number is still impressive for such a tiny little motor.

I wanted more go so I went about building my own Euro version TDI Beetle. When it was all said and done I ended up with a monster little car that will go over 700 miles on a 14 gal tank yet just totally smoke the tires through the first 2 gears even with a REAL limited slip differential (this is real torque steer as compared to the 6MT TL). On the dyno here are the numbers my car layed down AT THE WHEELS!. It put out 148 HP (pretty good for a diesel because to make HP it helps to be able to really rev) but the torque numbers are amazing. At the wheels my little 1.9 liter motor put out over 300 lb/ft of torque! This is more than a lot of V8s make. For comparison the 4.6l V8 in the Mustang makes 320 lb/ft of torque AT THE CRANK and I am darn near making that at wheels after driver train losses.

So I ended up with a car that gets about 47 mpg in the city, over 50 on the highway and would probably run a 5 second zero to 60 if I could make it in 2nd gear and if I could get the car to hook up all out of a little 1.9 liter motor! Add a little propane to it and I'd bump up the HP another 20 or 30 and I could add 50 lb/ft of torque. Propane helps the diesel burn more efficiently but it almost feels like you hit the nitrous button. I haven't had a chance to dyno this config yet though so I don't want to quote numbers out of my rectum.

The car has instaneous power at any speed in any gear. No waiting for the Vtec to work or the revs to come up. Mash the throttle and away you go. Biggest drawback is keeping from smiling every time I fuel up and then the incredible torque steer. The car is terrible in the snow but if it had AWD it'd be amazing. Hopefully we'll see more diesels here in the US.

rets

Hey, wavshrdr, you seemed to tell me this last December. Sorry for my obliviscence.

Indeed, this lower rpm torque is art of engineering.

Still I believe Europe has way more models of diesel sedans or sports than what we have here. It seems American continent doesn't have the big market for it yet.

wavshrdr

Rets- You are correct about last year. The acceptance of diesels here will go up as fuel prices go up. I was just in Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands and the cheapest fuel was Bio-diesel at about $4/gal. Regular diesel was $5.20/gal and the stuff the TL drinks was almost $7.00/gal!!!!!

How would you like to spend almost $100 filling up your fuel tank? That is why so many people buy diesels there. We'll have more here soon. Look at how the hybrids are doing? They work great in the city but suck on the highways. Diesels are pretty good everywhere.

SouthernBoy

To missmyprelude;

Very well said my friend, very well said. The most common remark I've gotten from someone who is trying to decide between a manual and an automatic is traffic. But what they're really saying is, "I don't think I really want a manual.. I just need to give reason to other why I'm going with an automatic". Well first off, no one owes anyone else an explanation as to why they took one decision or another about their car purchase. That said, for me, traffic has never entered into the equation and as a consulting software engineer (in the past), I have driven in a mess of it in the Washington DC metro area.

I think you missmyprelude hit the nail on the head with his post. There are those of use who will question and vacilate and there are those of us who know exactly what they want in a car. For me, an automatic transmission in my personal driving machine ain't in the picture.

SouthernBoy

To wavshrdr;

You wrote, "The way of the future will be the really smart tip trannies like in the new MBs and BMW". Good God, I hope you're wrong on that one. I certainly don't mind if manufacturers offer this in their cars. But I would absolutely hate to see it take the place of a manual transmission.

I have to admit that I am not a fan of diesel engines at all. I know they have their place, but I just wouldn't want one in my car.

Also, your statement,
"Torque is what gives us our acceleration and horsepower determines top speed. Transmissions are simply "torque multipliers" that increase the torque to the wheels by taking advantage of the internal gear ratios and final axle ratio."

is partially right. Both torque and horsepower act together to produce acceleration. Obviously, you need a generous amount of both to have good acceleration. And just as important is where the peak occurs for both.. as you have pointed out. But you did a decent job.

The 281 cubic inch V8 which is found in the Mustangs is a small, normaly aspired engine so it doesn't produce a lot of torque. To get a lot of torque, you need to increaase the displacement or simulate higher displacement (EX: blowers). Take, for example, the 500 cubic inch engine in the Viper. Here we have 525 lb/ft or torque. Now back in the 60's, there were a host of engines which produced torque in the 440 to 500 lb/ft range. And I can tell you, the acceleration was incredible.

Oh well, best of luck to you in your purchase and I trust you'll wind up with a TL to your liking.

Pro Stock John

I drive a 6mt in Chicago rush hour and I tolerate it since I get to enjoy the car everytime else I drive it. I have a low 10 second 98 Firebird so I relished the opportunity to drive stick again (I just put a T400 in the Firebird).

SouthernBoy

Hey Pro Stock John;

What have you done to your Firebird to get it into the 10's? Also, since your handle has "Pro Stock" in it, I assume you like that particular class in the sport of drag racing (I do). Those boys are getting into the 6's at over 200 MPH!

missmyprelude

Yeah, I definitely don't want to drive a diesel, and I don't want a tiptronic, SMG, or anything without a clutch - that's at least half the fun of driving for me.

The diesels I see, be it a MB, VW, or a Mack truck all sound like hell, have black smoke pouring out of them, and typically have black stains somewhere on the body from that black exhaust. And most of them could pull a barn down the road but are far from "fast" - diesels just don't spin that fast, and the rpms measure into the power equation. Live in a very cold climate, and you might as well pack the diesel up for the winter.

Sure, I know that diesel technology is getting better, but I'd wager it won't get better fast enough to outrun the hybrid technology. Hey, you mean I can have a gas/electric powerplant that gives me more power/torque, runs cleaner, and gives me 50% better gas mileage? And I don't have to live with a truck engine in my car? Sign me up.

wavshrdr

Obviously you have driven any modern diesels. Go drive a new MB diesel such as the E320 CDI. It doesn't smoke, clatter or have any bad manners. There isn't a hybrid that will match it in economy or performance. Run bio-diesel in it and you have a renewable fuel source.

I live in a frigid climate and never had an issue with my diesels starting here. Last winter I went out in -30F weather and my diesel Bug fired right off. Problem is most Americans haven't tried a really good diesel. My last MB diesel went 473,000 miles without any issues until the turbo failed. Ultimately the car was stolen before I was ready to retire it.

Diesels can be quite fast. Take a look around. Go to Europe and see what they are really capable of. They have to meet very stringent noise and pollution controls. I looked at Toyota Prius but it couln't match my VW in economy or performance especially at the speeds I tend to drive.

So many people are clueless about current hybrid technology. First off when the batteries run down (which doesn't take long under full throttle) you are left with a gutless small little gas motor. Hybrids make sense in stop and go traffic like in a city where if they have regenerative breaking you can be very efficient. On the highway they aren't that great as they can't get buy by relying a lot on their electric motor to help out.

I guarantee my "slow" little diesel will show any stock TL it's taillights on a mountain road. I have a friend with a diesel pickup that will knock off a Z06 Corvette in the quarter mile. Get informed about diesels and then maybe we can have a serious debate. Why isn't Europe running to embrace hybrids? Fact is they cost much more to make than diesels and they totally suck on the autobahns.

So if you think 6 seconds 0-60 time and a top speed of over 150 is slow then a TL is a slow car. Those are the specs of what diesel Mercedes will run stock. Those are very comparable to what a 3rd Gen TL will do and no one accuses it of being slow.

Anyway before this thread gets too far off topic my new TL is setting in my garage as I type. It is Anthracite/Ebony 5AT Navi. So far no regrets buying the 5AT. It was a stressful day at the office and it was nice just to put it in drive, crank up the tunes and just relax on the way home from the dealer in spite of all the blasted road construction here. Other than my son playing with the nav every chance he could it was pretty relaxing. What a sweet ride. Trip computer said I was doing better than 30 mpg on the way home. Can't wait to get it broken in!

wavshrdr

I tried to keep my discussion relatively untechnical. I am an aerospace engineer and my friends sometimes accuse me of talking over their heads so I try and phrase things in such a way that the most number of people can relate and understand the concepts even if not technically 100% accurate. I had to do that enough at work.

Anyway what we really are looking at is torque to weight ratios and when you reach high enough speeds then HP becomes an issue. Unfortunately aerodynamic drag goes up geometrically rather than linearly such as drag from rolling resistance. Drag goes up by the square of speed and HP required goes up by the cube of speed. So for a car to go twice as fast the aerodynamic drag will quadruple (4 times) and the HP required to go twice as fast will go up by a factor of 8!!!! That is why at some point it is more efficient to DECREASE DRAG to go faster than trying to get more HP out of the motor.

Things such as even taping door seams on a car can increase top speed by 2-3 mph. I once worked on a racing aircraft that when I finally got the owner to get rid of the checkerboard paint on the wings (which I must admit looked really cool) and paint the plane with Imron paints, the plane picked up 15 mph!!! They had no more ways to extract significantly more HP out of the motor. It was a very high performance Merlin engine and they are pretty darn rare and expensive to repair and they really couldn't afford to sacrifice any more reliability than they already had done as you can't win if you don't finish the race.

One reason an average motorcycle will smoke a car in acceleration is even though the motorcycle has a smaller motor it has a much better torque to weight ratio than many cars. What I've often encountered is that a few of my cars might be beaten to 100/120 mph by my friends motorcycles but from 130 on up I own them because of my cars superior aerodynamics and HP. On the occassion my car won't pull them on top end (which is pretty rare as it will go a true 185 mph no lie) then I just go home and pull out my big bike which has only lost to one vehicle on the street (a turbo 'Busa).

BTW I love cars from the 60's. I grew up with a few really cool ones. I have a 440 Road Runner; lots of torque but heavy. I had a 10 second big bore stroked VW Bug. One of my favorites was the '67 427 Vette which was stolen by a friend and then crashed by the bastard. Plus a few too many other cars to list. They had big HP and torque numbers but don't forget those were rated at the crank but with no accessories typically. So in perspective a motor rated at about 270HP nowadays would have been rated closer to 300+ back then as they didn't take into account drag such as from power steering pumgs or other things.

I agree there is no substitute for displacement except for forced induction beit turbo or super charger. Chemical means such as nitrous are quite nice too. Keep in mind that my point of referencing the Mustang motor is MUCH bigger than my little TDI motor and even with it's turbo its effective displacement is only about 2.7 liters based on the boost it is running yet it still makes more torque than the 4.6 motor in the Mustang. Diesels make lots of torque and they have virtually instantaneous throttle response which makes them quite satisfying to drive on a daily basis.

All I can say about diesels is if people tried new ones it might really change your mind. VW even had a race diesel that did quite well. Many people get in my TDI VW and don't even know its a diesel; it is that quiet. It is only slightly louder than the gas version at startup and that is only when it is cold.

Many of you sound like so many people when they said paddle shifters will ruin Formula 1. I don't think there is a team out there that doesn't run a SMG type gearbox. It took me a long time to finally admit that some computerized systems can actually enhance my driving experience. I still love the feel of a well executed heel toe down shift or just rowing through the gears at times. The thing is no matter how good you are you can't PRECISELY execute a shift as well as a well designed SMG gearbox or something like a smart AMG automatic tranny. It will momentarily retard spark and pull back fuel just imperceptibly to reduce the stress on the tranny and shift at the EXACT OPTIMUM rpm for maximum acceleration. It can do this EVERY TIME! You are human and you can't! It is that simple. It can do it with the accuracy of 1 or 2 rpm time after time and it never gets tired.

Maybe it doesn't seem quite as macho or involved but when I am racing I want to win not pride myself in a well executed shift but I lost the race. When I first started flying all the controls were manual. In the last planes I flew in the military they were all fly-by-wire and you know what? It made for a much better aircraft that was safer to fly AND much better performing. After that I was a believer. It took the stress of me worrying about over-controlling the plane on a bombing run or while attacking a tank. I could concentrate more about completing my missing and not ripping the wings off. Same concepts apply to the car. The more you can make the car/plane/motorcycle an extension of you, the better it will perform. The less time you worry about mundane tasks the faster you can go and the better you perform. That is why SMG gearboxes, super smart autos and CVT trannies will ultimately win out. There will still be a few hard core members of us that love manual gearboxes but there is less and less a place for them in performance cars. I think even Porsche Turbo sales now reflect that more people by the tip in the car than the 6MT.

Anyway I picked up my TL last night and so far I am loving it. Anthracite/Ebony 5AT with a bunch of stuff to come for it. I still have 2 good manual tranny cars so when I need to really exercise that part of my soul I can. I couldn't live without having a manual tranny in my fleet. If the TL were my only car I would have probably bought the 6MT but in reality the TL will be used until the RL has some real HP!

kmtoner

My wife and I each bought "new" TLs within 10 days of each other. She pulled the trigger first with an '04 5AT in Anthracite/Quartz with 1,000 miles and tint. She's the hot rod and wanted the 6 speed, but we couldn't find a color combination and she grudgingly agreed that automatic is probably the better choice for city driving, juggling kids, drinks, cell phone, etc. She loves the car and after one month wouldn't change a thing.

I bought a Silver '05 with Ebony interior, tint, and ground effects. I intended to buy an MDX to replace my Dodge Durango, but I just couldn't justify the price difference over the TL. The TL has more features, better mileage, sportiness, and ride. The audio system is superior in the TL, and I prefer AT over manual. I regret that at least one of our TLs is not manual, but both of us are happy with the cars. The TL memory seats alone were enough to convince us not to buy the Accord.

We are averaging 23 mpg in the City. 27 mpg on the highway.

NOX 3.2

I got the 6MT, Anthracite/ebony

I like it a lot better for handling, control and the fact that I can reduce the MPG depending on my shifting and driving pattern.

- a little over 2000 rpm at 70mph
- got 33 mpg (avg) on a 1250 mile trip to Florida from Houston.
- Like the 4 piston Brembo Brakes (they cost a lot if it was an upgrade)

SouthernBoy

Hey NOX 3.2;

How's that possible? You indicated that your engine is turning "a little over 2000 rpm at 70mph" and I assume you're talking in 6th gear. My '04 Anthracite/Ebony/6MT/Nav turns 2000 RPM at 60 MPH in 6th gear. So unless you've changed your final drive gears or have installed taller diameter tires, I don't see how this is possible.

Help.

wavshrdr

Maybe he meant 60 mph? The 5AT is geared much taller than the 6MT in top gear. It makes the engine almost inaudible at 70-90 mph. What a nice cruising auto.

After driving my 5AT I am really glad I went with the AT. I hate to admit it but it does suit the cars character better. So far I haven't missed not having bought the 6MT version. Yesterday we had snow and it was sweet to just start out in 2nd gear and not get any wheel spin. It is much easier to do this with the auto than a manual and I've had a ton of practice with a manual.

The car is incredibly smooth and really no evidence of torque steer. The more I drive the auto the more evident how much smoother the overall experience is yet the car still handles well.

To be honest I had my doubts (serious ones at that) about going with the 5AT vs. the 6MT. I thought in many ways I was "settling" for a lesser car. So far I don't think that has been the case. My first tank of basically in town driving has been 24 mpg and I look for it to improve after break-in.

The SS works quite well. Overall if people are leaning toward the 5AT vs. the 6MT they should definitely go with it. No big deal if you lose a few tenths in the quarter mile as the TL was not the fastest car in its class anyway. So far the stock brakes have been excellent and are getting even better as they are bedding in. Yesterday I spent some time in an area that poses for moutains where I live and no fade even on some pretty long and fairly hard downhills.

I would like to see what times a 5AT would run in the quarter if it had the LSD too. Some of the gain for the 6MT might be due to the fact it can launch harder due to the LSD because in normal driving my 5AT felt easily as strong as the 6MT I drove did. Maybe I got lucky but out of the 15+ TL's I drove mine feels the strongest of the bunch.

The slightly softer sway bars of the 5AT help out too where I live because of our crappy roads. Think of heavily frost damaged roads and you get the picture. I wish I still lived in Georgia where you could drive a car with full race suspension on the roads and not get punished too bad. If I take my race car on the roads here it feels like you'll jar your teeth out of your head.

Now all I could wish for more in the car is a bolt on super charger or turbo. Life would be really good then!

SouthernBoy

NOX 3.2 has a manual tranny, so unless there has been a MAJOR change in some component which would change the gear ratios (final drive or tires), either one or the other of our speedometers is off by 26.667% or he made an error in his post. Since I have already done a distance calibration with my speedmeter, the error is on his side.

Not that this is all that important anyway.. it's just that a difference of 26.667% makes you really stand up and take notice.


You wrote, "I hate to admit it but it does suit the cars character better." I have to say that I disagree with this, but I will freely admit that the reason is solely based upon a preferential bias and is quite subjective to boot. You see, I feel just the opposite but I have to also admit that I have never driven a TL with an automatic. However, you will notice that in the Acura literature (brochure) and on their TV ads, they most always feature the manual and that's easy to understand. They are trying to project the car to a certain market and give it a certain image.

I should imagine that the AT tranny on the TL is quite good. By that I mean the car probably transmits a feeling of instant response to throttle inputs. Good automatics generally have an excellent torque multiplication at low speeds and in RPM ranges where most people do most of their driving. And if Acura turned the ECU to deliver anywhere near the throttle response for an AT as they did for the MT, I bet the car does very nicely under most all driving conditions.

The county where I live in Virginia has the highest job growth rate of any county in the U.S. and it's right next to the fastest growing county in the nation (Loudoun) and the wealthiest county in the nation (Fairfax), so the roads are pretty decent. Not all are perfect because of the construction and growth, but most all are good. Be careful driving on bad roads because you don't want to damage your suspension or undercarriage.

A small but efficient supercharger would be my choice between it and a turbocharger were I of a mind to go with a blower. But what I'd really like to see is for Acura to increase the displacement by 24 cubic inches, from 196 to 220 cubes, and maintain comparable engine and ECU tune. In so doing, the numbers would be 300-305 HP and around 280 lb/ft of torque. This would not only be near perfection, but at the outter limits of the power range for practical street use of this car in a FWD configuration. Fun for sure.

wavshrdr

SouthernBoy- I understand the image that Acura is trying to project. In the interest of intellectual honesty almost no one will ever say that a FWD can ultimately handle as well as an AWD or RWD car as it starts with a huge weight transfer disadvantage.

I drove both the AT and MT versions repeatedly as well as what I were the competitors for me vs. the TL (Audi, BMW and Infiniti). Unfortunately even though I live in an affluent area the weather is just too extreme for them to be able to repair all the roads as quickly as they are damaged. As a result I have had issues with even stock ride height cars. My TDI VW suffered a cracked oil pan because of the crappy roads here.

As a result it really impacts my enjoyment of vehicles here. When you combine that with terrible traffic at times and it greatly reduces your enjoyment as well of a very sport oriented car. I sometimes drive my race WRX on the roads but is a PITA to jack the ride height back up so I don't slam the chassis into the ground but it is still fun but I don't want to deal with it every day. Although that changes when I set it up to race on snow and its a little higher.

I really liked the 6MT TL but its just not practical enough on a daily basis yet the auto does everything it does almost as well. If it were my only car I probably would have bought it over the 5AT or at least that was my feeling before. No I am not quite so sure. As it is in my household I have 2 cars with 5 speed manuals, the TL with 5MT, my AMG MB with an amazing 5AT and my race truck which has a heavily built 4AT.

I really wish Acura would take a look at the tranny in the AMG Benz's. I think the special name they have for it is "Speedshift" but I'd have to look it up to be sure. The thing that really sold me on this tranny after driving it was how "smart" it truly is. For example when I get hard on the brakes going into a turn it automatically starts dropping gears to the best gear for maximum acceleration. If I let off throttle in mid turn to tuck the nose in with trailing throttle oversteer it doesn't go for the next gear. It measures the later accleration of the car and if it is greater than .4G it won't upshift. Another really sweet thing about it is that the TC locks up in EVERY GEAR so in a way you get the best of manual and auto.

When the TC slips you get torque multiplication and then it hooks up directly so you get the efficiency of a manual. When you let off the throttle the car instantly slows with engine braking. It also knows the EXACT point at which to shift for maximum go. Of course it is adaptive and quickly learns your driving style. I can't forget how quickly the tranny shifts too. It completes a stress free gearchange in .4 seconds with no shock to the drive train. Of course it is a tiptronic style tranny so you can manual select the gears but this is really the first AT car I found that I could just leave it in D and let it do its work. It became almost like a video game to drive the car. You could hang the tail out on the car at 130mph+ and feel in total control.

At first I was really unhappy that MB didn't offer a MT option with the car. At the time they didn't have any trannies that would fit in the car that would handle its torque other than an auto. AMG reworked the MB tranny and I was really amazed. I wish Acura had something this good. I would have to say that until that point the only vehicles I had purchased with an AT (except 1) were diesel Suburbans were a MT was not an option. Every other car in my life had a MT. So in perspective I had owned over 60 MT cars until that point that I bought the MB and the TL is only the second car I've bought new that had a AT. I was about as diehard manual tranny freak as you can imagine.

I would like a power boost but not at the sake of fuel mileage. I'd maybe give up 1 or 2 mpg tops. A super charger with an electric clutch could be cool or turbos are nice. I'd hate for Honda to do what Nissan did with their V6 and lose the smoothness the motor had. I realize that until the car is AWD it's getting to the edge of its platform's ability to lay down the HP. Still I am on the AWD bandwagon as the weather here is rotten so often that I REALLY want an AWD version and I was seriously considering the RL because of that.

SouthernBoy

My first wish would not be possible with this platform, and that is a small block V8.. of around 260 cubic inches. There appears to be room for this if the car was a RWD platform, but not the way it's currently configured. So barring that, an increase in displacement and a nice exhaust note would be good.

I suppose us gearheads are always in search of the perfect car, but since that just ain't gonna happen, we have to compromise.. until the next "perfect" car comes along. Makes us appear crazy to the non-gearheads of the world. But hey.. what do they know.

And as for engine technology, look what Chevrolet has still running in their Corvette. An engine design that's 50 years old, which means Chevy isn't living in the past.. they just got it right 50 years ago. The small block Chevy in the Vette pumps oout 400 HP and gets yo to 60 MPH in 4.2 seconds, while delivering 27 MPG on the road. Now I call THAT technology. And within the year, they're suppose to come out with an updated Z06 rated at 500 HP. Don't know what will live under the hood, but that just means the Vette is here to stay for quite a bit longer. (how did I get on that topic??).

As for handling, with a few excepts (the Ford SVT Contour is one), a FWD is always going to take a back seat to a RWD in the twisties. But I have to say, I have a neighbor who use to have an Integra setup for the road course. He raced at Sumit Point and took my out on a few of the back roads in the area around where I live. Scared the hell out of me, but he COULD drive that thing.

Man I am rambling to no end. Take care and nice bantering with you. Enjoy your car.

wavshrdr

I had the late model vette with the 6spd. First thing I had to do was get rid of CAGS (you know the POS thing that forced you to shift from 1->4th). I got pretty good mileage with it but that isn't why I bought it.

As for the small V8, one of the most fun cars I had was a little Sunbeam Tiger. Think small Miata sized car but from the factory with a 4.2 liter V8 under the hood thanks to Carroll Shelby and yes THE Carroll Shelby. That was a little rocket and I still kick myself to this day for selling it.

While I like V8's, V10's and V12's I still appreciate the benefit of a low-mass car running forced induction. For example I still regret that both MB and Audi decided to go with heavy V8's in the C and A respectively platforms for their "muscle cars". The cars feel much more nose heavy and are far harder to tweak. All I needed was a new chip in my Audi and a new SC pulley on my MB to bump up the HP substantially. Talk about bolt-on HP!

Apparently it doesn't seem much is out the for the aftermarket to add about another 50HP that I'd like my TL to have. I too would love to a see a rear drive TL! I'd settle for a supercharged 3.2TL with AWD and 7spd SMG tranny though.

I am sure I'll enjoy my car more once it's broken in. I think true gear heads are a dying breed...

SouthernBoy

I remember the Sunbeam Tigers with the Ford V8 quite well. It was not a 4.2 liter engine in the original ones produced.. perhaps you have one that had an engine swap. The original tigers had the 260 cubic inch Ford rated at 164 HP. This was the same engine that was installed in the V8 Mustang in its first year introduction in April 1964 (April 17 was the intro date). Just within the last 2 weeks, I read an article that talked about the 1964 Mustang with the 289. Ford never made a 1964 Mustang and they certainly never made one with the 289. Although, it was introduced on April 17, 1964, it was a 1965 model. And they didn't offer the 289 until the fall "1965" model year. which was really just an extension of the initial Mustang intro. At that intro, the 289 was offered in three states of tune, up the the "271 Hi-PO". The 289/271 Hi-Po engine was not all that quick, but due to the thin wall casting of the block, you could sure hear those solid lifters.

Ford modeled its small block after the small block Chevy, but true be know, while I do love and respect both engines, the Ford could never quite produce the numbers that the Chevy could. Around the same time, Chrylser, through Plymouth, offered a 273 in the Barracuda. Rated at 235 HP, my 1964 Corvair Spyder could just about take one.

KarenV6

I am speaking as one of the wifeys that doesn't "drive" manual transmission, I was a tad hesitant when hubby pushed for the 6MT over the auto.

After 1K plus miles on the 2005 Black/Camel 6MT I haven't regretted or been "upset" about hubby getting the 6MT one bit. Granted before this car, most of my 13 years of driving was spent on auto trannys. Your wife can learn to drive stick. I learned how to drive stick and it doesn't take too long. Really the biggest thing is pulling out of 1st uphill at a stoplight. At times hubby finds it hilarious.. I was coming into the driveway and we have a mini-bump and i was trying to coast into the driveway.. well I stalled, not once but twice.. hubby finally was like.. "just park in the street sweetie" granted I was trying to avoid the mailbox and my poorly parked accord and not scrape the underbody of the tl.. but I could only chuckle quite a bit doing all this. So I guess you have to assess your wife's metal state.. will she get so frustrated that she'll take it out on you, "Why did we get this manual tranny car, i hate you, you're a horrible husband".. blow up fight with you, & you two not have sex for 3 months and she get all *phtpht catty when she struggles stalling the car a bit? Or can she shake it off, just start the car when it stalls in traffic and feel empowered gunning it in 3rd gear hearing the roar of the engine? I'm not smooth w/driving stick, but I have to say, I'm glad its the acura i'm in when I'm driving stick and tis a blast to drive. I"m 5' tall and its fun although for me auto is the way to go for MY daily driver.. but its not mine its Hubbys so I'm ok with it

SouthernBoy

To karenV6;

I taught my wife how to drive a manual transmission many years ago in a 1966 SS396/360 L34 Chevelle. I can remember one night I was letting her drive through Richmond as we headed towards the 360 circle on our way back to Farmville. I had removed the stock reverse flow mufflers on the Chevelle and installed Walker Mark II glass packs. And what does she do? Takes the engine up to 4-grand between the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts just to hear the pipes. Man I thought for sure we were courting a ticket that night.

But seriously, she's one of the best manual tranny operators I know. Her and both of my daughters.

NOX 3.2

yes, it could be 2500 RPM at 70mph,
I don't really know exactly, as I don't pay much attention to the dials, but to the road.
but I do know it's lower than my old 2000 TL (5AT).

I still prefer this 6MT over my 2 AT I had in the past.