acuracanuck

Why is the TL Dynamic (6MT) rated faster than the base model TL in 0-60? This may be an ignorant question, but I never drove an automatic. They both have the same 258 HP but according to driving.ca the 6MT had an avg. time of 6.5 while the base model's avg. time was 7.0.

Is it the fact you can rev higher in manual, whereas the auto would shift to next gear? Or does the 100 less lbs make that much difference. Maybe it's a combination of both? My brother asked and I couldn't explain why.

I hate cars

More power gets to the wheels through a manual and typically, an auto weighs more.

The auto has slighly more friction, a pump, and torque convertor that take power to run. Take into account the TL's lack of low end torque and the manual's ability to take off in the powerband and you have a faster car.

On the more powerful cars, an auto with a high stall convertor is faster 9 times out of 10.

On a turbo car, an auto's ability to powerbrake and build boost off the line and not lift throttle on shifts widens the gap over a manual.

acuracanuck

Thanks! So you are saying some of the auto's power is deferred to those other components and the weight has a factor too.

Does the shifting have anything to do with it? I mean I can peel out at 8000 rpms if I want by dumping the clutch...does it take the AT longer to get that high? Is that what you mean about more power to the powerband?

Just wanna get things straight so I don't talk outta my ass.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

A 6 speed car has a direct conection between the engine and the wheels, that will always yeild more power than an auto that spins fluid to turn the wheels. As far as brakestanding( pushing the gas and break at the same time) to get a turbo to spool up and take off faster than a manual, BS. Direct connection always beats a fuild to torque converter to wheels connection.

csmeance

also since that manual has 6 gears, it has more aggressive gear ratios that can be used so the max power is given to the wheels. Though the motor itself is rated 258 HP at the CRANK, the auto and manual tl differ power at the WHEELS>

acuracanuck

OK that makes perfect sense. Thanks guys. Actually more reasons than I thought.

I hate cars

Do a little research before you call BS. You're just showing your ignorance. I have a 10 second turbo car with an auto. I think I know a little about turbos and transmissions. If a manual would get me down the quarter quicker I would have one.

On a dyno, sure the manual would put down more power. In the real world, an auto turbo car will win every time.

Yes, you powerbrake (or use a transbrake)to build boost off the line. You have to have load on the motor to build boost. A stick shift can't provide load sitting still. You can use a two step but still won't get much boost with a large turbo.

Get out from behind your computer and go to the track and watch what the fast cars are running, then you will see you're dead wrong. Seriously, I shouldn't have to waste my time defending myself, this is basic knowledge at best.

S PAW 1

Why is it with every friggin reply you put into this forum you end up talking about your turbos and your obsolete GS, and your "expertise" that goes along with it? You usually end up getting flamed by someone, and hijacking the thread I'm not a mod., but I think you would be better off staying on topic in this ACURA forum!

jmbnova

Tripnbeats

wait wait wait.....ok i know the whole story on weight auto manual...but what about the F1 trannies....supposedly those things haul more ass than stick or auto.

lusid

Lol^

VmtSquad

iTrader: (1)

Depends on the driver I guess. I won a small race against a 07 typeS this weekend. I beat him from 0-100KM by one hood and he pass me at around 175km (106mph). He looked shocked lol...

Even with 30HP less, I still beat the guy, I wonder if Its my driving skills or the tranny effect or maybe its because I dont know enough about engine....thats what I Hate Cars would say.

Bearcat94

'

Or you got the jump on the start by a couple tenths - it hard to make up from a late start.

I hate cars

This is simple so try and follow me, ok? The guy asked about auto trannies. I told him the pros and cons. One of the pros happened to be that turbo cars are faster with an auto. I didn't mention anything about my car... Got that so far?

Then some fag gets on here and calls BS on the turbo thing so I defended myself.

As for obsolete, call it what you want but there's no Acura on the planet that will outrun it in the quarter.

I hate cars

I would probably say what the othe guy said. Very hard to overcome a late start with only a 30hp advantage. If you're already doing 10mph before he hits it, 30hp won't make up that difference at any legal speeds.

Tripnbeats

yea if u have a rolling head start u can beat a lambo (LMAO) to some extent its true though. u ever race another car same make as urs???? same thing if they're doing 100 its gonna b a minute before u catch up or even pass em

NRaza

LOL... you guys provide me with more entertainment than youtube.

Black_05_TL_6SP

A modified Auto tran will perform better in a Large turbo application. But in all other instances the manual transmission will perform better.

When you compare apples to apples, the manual will come out on top in all applications other then the turbo setup. Being able to build boost off the line is extremely important, especially with a large turbo. In N/A, supercharged and N2O, the manual has the advantage due to less loss through the transmission and the fact it is a mechanical connection rather then fluid.

And please, everyone calm down, no need to get testy!!

There are pros and cons to every setup, and that is part of the planing when building a car. Be it a production car, or a race car.

I hate cars

I agree. The other point being when you get over a certain hp, talking strictly 1/4 mile, an auto is usually quicker but with less mph. From a roll, a manual is pretty much always quicker. That's why 90% of the fast street cars at the track, say from 11s to 9s are running autos. I don't do roll racing on the street, just too dangerous. An auto is much better in my application.

Another thing to think about.. I've pulled a 1.57 60' time with the left tire off the ground. If the car were a stick shift, I would have to grab for second as soon as I dumped the clutch. Very hard to do. The other thing is you unload the suspension when you shift gears. Not good on a fast car.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

i hate cars. i used to be a big f & g body fan... curious.. what kinda rear end/gears you have in that monster?

Also people, to take his side, he is right. on the faster "drag" type applications, most people have an auto. some with hurst shifters or other types.

if you have a 500+ hp RWD car pumping turbo, the auto is better for drag racing. sure they weigh more, and you lose power (unless you have a high stall converter), but dont forget... no matter how good you are at driving stick, there is always a) human error shifting and b) lost time while shifting.

to answer the OP... yes, a bone stock TL or TL-S 6MT will always be "faster" on paper and asphalt because it does weigh 100lbs less, there is no fluid or extra machinery (tq converter) so less friction, means less power loss @ the crank..... plus, if you have a nice comptech SS (short shifter) and other cars with comptech or any type of competition clutch, you are gonna be faster...

dont forget the gear ration.. TL 5AT is closest in 3rd?? while i beileve the 6spd's closest ration is in 5th... i could be wrong

I hate cars

Stock 8.5" and 3.42s plus an Eaton posi. I try and keep in off of slicks as much as possible with stock axles. It's the only part I haven't broken yet. With the way my job is going, once it breaks, it's staying that way for a long time.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

love the GN's.... also a huge fan of 442 and 87-88 SS's.

but trying not to stray off the topic.... i am on your side with the AT tranny. surely, and manual will put down bigger numbers on paper, but its simply that... paper.... not blacktop LOL

I hate cars

Thanks!

I see you've got a non-black type-S? I'm going that same route soon.

shooter

Noooo ! Don't make the same switch as Blackura as he's been receiving hate-emails and death threats from the die-hard NBP members ... LOL

I hate cars

I love these cars in black but I'm convinced this car will eventually kill me or get me arrested lol.

Inaccurate

I am another old fart with "old war stories" too.

I was HEAVY into drag racing in my younger days. I had a very-stripped down 1985 IROC-Z Camaro. I replaced the factory 5-speed manual with a B&M built Turbo 400 trans (auto trans).

In a "street" drag race, I was ALWAYS willing to go heads-up against manual-trans cars that I knew were faster than me on paper. Because 9 out of 10 times, the guy with the manual trans would somehow screw-up a shift. That is what I banked-on for my victory.

XxAfG786xX

is there a torque convertor for the Tl?

I hate cars

High stall? Not that I know of but most good convertor shops will restall your stock convertor for $100. If there was ever a car that needed a high stall convertor, it's the TL. If my transmission ever goes out, you can bet it's getting a 2,800 stall.

acuracanuck

Wow touchy subject I guess

I know about diver skill though, in my younger days I actually beat a few higher hp machines because they forgot where 3rd gear was. Can't say that I won many in my Civic though haha Anyway, we lived in the country back then and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Aaah to be 18 and invincible again...

Costco

I'd rather have a standard for the greater joy of driving over the ~10-15 seconds on the strip that you enjoy your auto. Not like it'll mean the deciding factor but a short shifter + flatfooted shifts can make up for most of the disadvantage.

I would consider myself quite mechanically inclined, but high stall converters were never something I was familiar with nor interested in (don't like auto trannies) I've heard it been thrown around a lot in Corvette owner conversations though. I've always known that it would cut time in the straight line, but what exactly is the difference between a "high stall" torque converter and a stock one?

I hate cars

I'm in fear of getting flamed but the best example I can give you is my own experience... Adding a high stall convertor makes the car feel like it lost 1000lbs. What it does, for example is my car would stall at 2,400rpm stock. That's if you floor the gas with your foot on the brake standing still. When I put a bigger cam and turbo and a couple other things that moved the powerband up, I got a 3,800 stall convertor.

What it does off the line is it puts you instantly in your powerband. With a 3,800 stall, taking off from a redlight normally going with the flow of traffic, the rpms would sit at a constant 2,600. Any little extra throttle input would make the rpms jump up quickly. Responsiveness was doubled. From a light, at first I was always accidentally spinning the tires until I got used to it. My car made ~240lbs of torque at the stock torque convertor rating and 620lbs near 3,800. You can imagine the difference.

So to oversimplify and make a long story short, it increases the rpms from a dead stop like dropping the clutch at a higher rpm, letting you take off much harder. It will keep the engine in the powerband the whole run regardless of what gear you're in. With my car, during a run, my rpms stay within a 500rpm range the whole time. Just got to make sure you have a big trans cooler.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

geekybiker

Back to the OP

There are a couple factors at work here.

1) As previously mentioned production auto cars have more drivetrain loss, and weigh more typically. (yes, yes, I'd read the whole heavily modded auto thing many times before)

2) The 6MT comes with a LSD. I dont believe anyone mentioned this. Simply better traction off the line.

3) The Dynamic is the aspec here I think, so you will likely have the performance tires vs all season tires. Again, better traction.

4) The dynamic (apsec) also has a better suspenion, and presumably has less squat and weight transfer on launch, also improving traction.

sifuacura

iTrader: (1)

im pretty sure he don't mind, because he probably get plenty of welcome mail from Wdp members

acuracanuck

Good points!

I think it's gonna take a long time to explain all this! You guys know your stuff though.

I think the 6MT is worth it for all the other stuff you get in addition to more fun driving experience. I like the suspension, the brakes are very good, LSD...very happy with my purchase.

(I'm trying to stop using "Dynamic" since that's what it's known in Canada as...A-spec is what i mean i think?)

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

I don't think Dynamic= Aspec. I believe Dynamic = 6MT in the USA. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

acuracanuck

Well there's no body kit on it. Isn't A-spec a body kit? It just has the Brembo brakes, LSD, tighter suspension etc etc.. So it's just 6MT there? I changed my user description to that to avoid more confusion.

Inaccurate

Well, I can tell many have not been to the drag strip or to illegal drag racing.

When you go to the drag strip, here is what you will hear. This also will give you an ideal of what a high stall convertor can do.

When a drag car with a race convertor take off under WOT down the strip, you hear the engine instantly go to 5500 RPM. As the car gains speed, the engine sound does not change. You do NOT hear the engine gain RPM like you would with a normal car. You hear just a constant 5500 RPM from the motor. That is, the engine has a constant sound pitch from the moment the driver floored-it until about midway down the quarter-mile. Then once he is about half way down the quarter-mile, you will hear the engine begin to whine-out as it comes "off of the stall". So, from start until midway down the strip, the engine has stayed at a CONSTANT 5500 RPM. Then after about middle way down the track, the MPH matches the 5500 RPM in high gear, and the engine whines up from 5500 RPM to approx 7000-8000 RPM as he crosses the finish line.

By the way, the reason the race convertor was designed to stay at 5500 RPM (in my example) is because this is where max torque is located. This example is based on the characteristics of the typical racing small-block chevy.

Fun stuff. By the way, my IROC-Z had a 10-inch 3500 RPM stall convertor

I hate cars

Another good thing about modern smaller convertors (I'm running a 9.5" lockup) is once the input shaft speed gets up higher like in your example, the car is halfway down the track, they become very efficient with only ~200rpm of slip. I ordered a lockup convertor to retain some streetability so on the freeway, it's all locked up and gas mileage doesn't suffer. That's mostly why I got up to 28mpg on the freeway and 8mpg around town. Remember the days of the switch pictch convertors?

acuracanuck

That's great but I'm talkin about TLs and I'm pretty sure most do not have stall converters. Interesting stuff though.

So a stock base TL vs. a stock 6MT TL...the manual SHOULD win barring diver error, correct? (due to lesser weight, better traction, more power reaching the wheels, etc)