erick3

What's crackin?!
Some of you know that I finally pulled the trigger on a used 06 TL 6MT. I went back and forth between possible cars, including that EMBARRASSING TL-S , almost pulling the trigger on several of them. However, I finally found this ASM 06 TL with 14,600 on the tach, local. I've never purchased used before (could use some advise on this one too - not sure where to begin with a 6MT used car; the car's being inspected via the dealer tomorrow though). Anyways, I thought the car was reasonably priced, and being 21 (please don't flame ), I thought it was age appropriate; albeit I was offered a 2010 IS 350 (damn, too bad...lol). NOW, comes the issue of driving the car - I've NEVER OWNED A MANUAL CAR IN MY LIFE .

Many questions, but some background - I learned to drive on a civic back in high school, and I can drive relatively well; I don't stall, and I've driven several manual TL's, including the 2010 6MT. Here's my problem - I can't shift smoothly, UNLESS I feather the clutch (my definition of "feather" may be skewed - I don't immediately let the clutch out after I shift, but I slowly let it out...at times, the car revs freely being the clutch isn't engaged completely). I don't know how else to drive it . I've tried shifting and then JUST letting the clutch out, but that didn't turn out very well...! I'm afraid I'm going to burn the clutch (<-- I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEAN LOL)! ALSO, I can't seem to shift well at high rpms - do you just...shift fast and let the clutch out?

Help and MANY thanks,
Eric

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

read the manuel about when to shift. I think first-second is like 17mph then 24 then 34 40 and 44? It says when it would be a smooth shift. We have a hydrolic clutch and really cant feel it at all. I had trouble coming from a wrx which you felt it and had no room to play. I feel like our clutches engage high but after a while you will learn to know where it engages and push all the way to floor shift then lift to engage and hit gas lightly and go. You dont want to floor it until its engages completely = burnt clutch = not smelling very great.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

Oh boy lol I wish I could put my thoughts into words right now, but it's wayyyyy to early. I'm pretty sure Southern boy will tell you exactly how it's done. I usually try to shift quickly and let the clutch out quickly. Most of the time I shift at like 2500 rpms, unless there is a huge hill or I'm trying to speed up very quickly. Practice makes perfect and just have fun with it, it's a totaly different car with the 6MT, as you can probably tell already.

Oh yeah, you should definitely do the slave cylinder mod as well. That will help with your 1st-2nd shift. Read all about it in the performance section

SouthernBoy

He sent me a PM and I figured there would be a lot of questions so I told him to send me a phone number where I could reach him and I would call him to try to help him along. The reason I'm mentioning this here is because he might see it right away (I may not be home the whole day today).

From his lack of experience and knowledge (and that is not a flame by any stretch), I know there will be lots of questions and a bit of time spent with this one.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

Oh nice! Yeah it is a lot of information to type. Looks like Erick3 will be learning from the best

SouthernBoy

Well thanks for the vote of confidence.. I'll try to do well by him.

There certainly is a lot of info to impart and trying to do this via PM's will take a few days I should think.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Sounds like a candidate for the slave cylinder checkvalve removal mod. I felt the same way you describe about how you have to let the clutch out to make it smooth and guess what...all but 6 months of the last 14 years I've been driving stick, so it wasn't from lack of experience. Read up on the checkvalve on these forums and see if you can do it/have it done and the clutch will feel as it should.

I've had many friends buy cars that are stick and they don't even know how to drive. In 1 day they practice and their good to go. Good job on the 06 with such few miles! Enjoy the car...it's awesome!

SouthernBoy

I would not recommend doing this if the OP doesn't plan on racing the car or driving really aggressively. Under most all conditions, you will not even be aware of this little device. And there is this. For the type of friction disk and flywheel our TL's have, this little check valve serves an important reason for its existence.

Yonkers914

iTrader: (1)

I had a totally diff. experience when i got my TL i was pissed off cause i was always jerking in first and second gear. Then i did the slave cylinder mod removal and now i shift flawlessly. You should try it and see if it works for you.

Yonkers914

iTrader: (1)

Oh yea this could help also. It's has a list of mod's for 6 speed's like short throw shifter and so on.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/must-6mt-tl-corsport-aluminum-shifter-cable-bushings-738896/

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I had the same experience even stalling on occasion. Always thought it was me. Turns out it was that damn check valve. Now, even if I come close to stalling, I can catch it like I used to.

I asked my wife if she could tell the difference because I would look over and see her jerking back and forth. She did notice it was a smoother ride. This is with normal driving. Makes spirited driving even more fun.

When it comes to when to shift, I've never ever thought about it. If it's too soon, you'll know it and just downshift. On the other end, you hit the limiter.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

just to make it easier for you OP:

6MT must mods:
- GM Synchromesh
- Short Shifter
- Weighted shift knob
- Corsport bushings

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

You don't think it's overkill? Conventional clutches put the springs into the disc, Honda decides to put it into the flywheel. As far as this check valve, all it is doing is easing the pressure plate into the sandwich, like riding the clutch on every actuation. That seems bad to me.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Eric, in order to learn, you just have to drive?

SouthernBoy

You're not quite there on the reasoning behind the check, or delay, valve, but you're close.

Most all friction disks have coil springs aligned around the splined hub. This is done to absorb shock and torque transmitted from the flywheel/pressure plate assembly, and to reduce chatter, sometimes referred to as shuttering. Honda went with a dual mass flywheel, a solid friction disk, and the check valve. The easing of the pressure to which you refer is not taking place under normal operation or even a fair amount of aggressive shifting otherwise, why am I able to break traction in second and third gears when getting on it? It does come into play when speed or power shifting I have to believe.

This begs the question of why did Honda/Acura decide to do this? I would wager it's because of the FWD platform. Let's face it. FWD components are not as strong as those of a RWD car, so I imagine Honda/Acura designed their clutching system to act as a damper to the rest of the drive train when really aggressive operation takes place.

SouthernBoy

I have never had this problem with my '04 manual TL. From day one, it has been fine and a real pleasure to drive. The only thing I had to compensate for was the really amount of pedal take-up from initial engagement to that of enough to move the car.

Some people complained that the engine speed does not off fast enough between shifts and when compared to older cars, this is true... and there is a reason for that, too.

SouthernBoy

Yes, if that were happening, it would indeed be a bad thing. But it's not. Unless your hydraulic fluid is filthy or low, or the valve is failing for some reason, normal actuation is no different than any other manual.

jungy4

erick3, I was pretty much on the same boat. I never owned a manual in my life, but I wanted a manual TL. Found one at an amazing price. When I was test driving it I pretty much stalled it everytime. It was hard for me to figure out the clutch. Had my brother drive it home and I figured it out in less than a day. I heard that TL doesn't have the easiest clutch. I kinda regretted getting a manual after a couple days but now that I am comfortable, I think I am beginning to like it more. Plus it was a great change after only owning automatics for 11 years!

Just take your time and you will learn it. You will get plenty of good info on this site.

SouthernBoy

For the couple of you on this thread who have indicated that they are somewhat new to the manual world, here are a few simple tips you may wish to consider. I have written a ton of stuff related to this topic so if you want to learn more, just do a search and you should turn it up. Enjoy!


Never hold the car on a hill with the clutch by balancing the it and throttle. Use the brakes - that's what they're for. Once again, never do this.

Don't ride the clutch.

Don't start out in second gear - use first gear, that's what it's for.

Do not over rev the engine and slowly slip the clutch when starting out. This is one method of riding the clutch. Use as few RPMs as possible to get the car going. And don't hold the clutch partially engaged too long while doing this.

Don't sit at a light with your transmission in gear and your foot depressing the clutch pedal to the floor. If you are going to be there for more than just a quite moment, put the transmission into neutral and get your foot off of the clutch.

Never rest your foot on the clutch pedal while driving.

Avoid downshifting until you know how to do this correctly. If you want to know ore about this, let me know.

Learn how everything in there works. This knowledge will serve you well. Learn component names, how they relate, and what they do.


Incidentally, I still learn new things all the time. In just the past two weeks, I learned a lot more about our dual mass flywheels, the how and why of them. If anyone tells you they know everything there is to know about manual transmission while strutting around like a peacock, chances are they really don't know much after all. You never stop learning.

mamitaxchula

iTrader: (1)

I've never removed the slave cylinder and it doesn't "jerk" from 1st to 2nd

it takes some getting used to but knowing how to shift isn't hard.

simply practice shifting smoothly. The hardest thing is 1st uphill.

like SouthernBoy stated: I would not recommend doing this if the OP doesn't plan on racing the car or driving really aggressively.

OP when stopped on an uphill incline...1st Use your brake...in fluid motion I hit the clutch, shift gear to 1st then I blip the throttle a couple times keeping rpms between 2500 & 3000 and slowly ease up off the clutch. It catches every time, no roll back. Practice makes perfect! on such a great choice, I love my manual =) & so do the boys who've driven it & also have AUTO TL's

I'm with you on that...

Good advice SouthernBoy...

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

There couldn't be a more real statement than that!

arrogantbastard

+100
I've been driving manuals for 20 years and am still refining my technique. This is one of the great things that makes owning a manual so rewarding.

Bottom line: you're going to get a lot of great advice here and on other sites, but you're not going to really learn anything until you get out and drive. After all, that's what it's all about.

Good Luck!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I do understand the clutch itself and the reasoning behind dual mass flywheel vs the springs bring on the disc.

But I don't understand the valve. As you indicate, it's delaying the slave from immediately applying full pressure. But if you immediately get on the gas after letting out the clutch, you get revs like you are slowing letting out the pedal. In my experience, it would rev up and then they would drop as the clutch fully engages. If you wait, then sure, the clutch is fully engaged and you get full power to the wheels.

But even just starting out, the clutch was very unpredictable to me. Without the valve, it is now very predictable.

I guess as you say, it's Honda's way to protect the transmission and I suppose replacing a clutch is a lot cheaper than a transmission.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

I was in ur position when I was 19... I bought an auto civic w/ an integra swap... albeit automatic... I said screw this and did an auto to stick swap... never having driven a manual I said how hard could it be

after 1 blown differential... I was pretty good at driving stick... well yes of course...

what I am saying here is... don't believe you can learn by yourself... I got good at driving stick pretty quick but at trial by fire hehehe.... get someone you know that has been driving stick for a very long time and emulate their movements

lastly if the car jerks... you doing something wrong...

ps. great posts southernboy

ps. ^2 it is damn near impossible to stall a tl unless u hit the brake and come to a full stop (in gear of course)... the tl rolls alone because of the way the flywheel is designed... what I mean is it'll roll at like 5miles an hour constantly depending on the angle of the pavement..

SouthernBoy

I suspect yours was failing if what you describe was taking place. Let's say you're at a light, no one's around, and you just want to launch a bit aggressively for the fun of it. The opposite light goes yellow, you slip your trans into first gear and raise the RPM's to around 2500. The light goes green and you come part way out with the clutch while getting into the throttle. You are trying to keep the tires from spinning while getting the best out of the launch. If you detect a retardation of clutch engagement or an indication of the onset of slip which you are not part of, then you have a problem.

Now let's take this scenario a little further and I'll talk about my '04 TL. If I were to do this (and I have a number of times) with the VSA off and clutch just enough to keep the engine from bogging while going WOT as soon as the light changes, I will start spinning the tires right away. In other words, with my '04 TL, there is no indication of this valve affecting my clutch action under these conditions. The only time I have ever noticed it is once or twice when really throwing a shift into third gear.

Finally, you mentioned, "if you immediately get on the gas after letting out the clutch, you get revs like you are slowing letting out the pedal". This has never happened to me. If I were to go out right now and start off and as soon as the clutch is out, nail the throttle, my tires would spin and there would be zero clutch slippage. And if I did this with the VSA off, they would spin until I let up on the throttle or my road speed had come close to matching my engine speed. So I suspect you're system is not working up to par.

This tells me your removal of the valve was most likely a very good thing from the perspective of the life of your clutch components more than it was for your driving enjoyment.

Babnik

Reading topics like this and seeing how much fun you guys are having makes me wish I had a manual. Anyone want to trade me their 6MT for my 04 5AT?

SouthernBoy

Be very careful doing this. As I mentioned, there are quite a few people who think they know everything there is to know about driving a manual transmission and they really don't. You don't want to pick up their bad habits.

Babnik

You can always take lessons from a school like: http://www.shifters.ca/

Kinda expensive though.

SouthernBoy

Ahh yes.. hills. The bane of new manual drivers. What I recommend is to form good habits right from the get go. DO NOT, as in NEVER hold your car on a hill with the clutch. I see this frequently and it immediately tells me the driver hasn't a clue how to properly operate a manual transmission. Here's a simple little technique which might help you.

Find a hill you can practice on that is not going to be in traffic: a shopping center or something similar is a great place to look and take along some masking tape. Park your car on your chosen hill (I would start out with a really small hill, in terms of incline, at first). Put a piece of masking tape, about 6" long on the surface right at the point where a rear tire contacts the surface, behind the tire. Now put another piece which you have rolled so that the sticky side is out about two feet behind the first piece. Now get in you car start it up and try to ascend the hill normally.

By normally, I mean start with your foot on the brake. Then put the car in gear and go from the brake to the throttle while using the clutch normally. What you want to do is to use as low of an engine speed as possible, get the clutch out as quickly as you can, and do all of this without stalling or over revving the engine and slipping the clutch more than necessary. In other words, the same thing you would do on a level stretch of road, but now having to make adjustments for a hill.

If you coasted back too much before you started moving forward, the second piece of masking tape with the sticky side out will be on your tire, so you'll know you went back at least two feet before you started going forward.

Continue to practice this until you can get the backward coasting down to around 6". When you have done that, find a steeper hill and start the process all over again.

SouthernBoy

You know how I learned to drive a manual transmission? On an abandoned panel truck which had no engine or transmission. However, it did have the clutch, brake, and throttle pedals and the floor shifter (3-speed). I spend hours in that truck pretending I was traveling all over the place. So when my first chance to drive a manual came up, a friend's Jeep, I was good to go. I bought my first car when I was 18 and my second when I was 20. By the time of my second car, I had pretty well learned most of these techniques I write about a lot here on this site. I was lucky to have learned them at a very young age.

MistahSleepy

I think most BMW's come with the delay valve, they call it a Clutch Delay Valve (CDV)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55083

http://www.zeckhausen.com/CDV.htm

I never owned a MT car before and basically learned on my TL. Now I have trouble driving my friends RX-8 because of how sensitive his clutch is.

I've always liked how my TL rides, the shifting in it is very smooth. I thought that was what the clutch valve accomplished? I've noticed that the TL's MT you don't have to be so conscious and sensitive like other MT's I've driven. I apply gas up to 3k rpm, clutch in, complete my shift and as soon as i feel it enter the gate I start to lift my foot off the clutch in one smooth motion, the car remains completely smooth almost as if no shift occurred. I get shifts like this about 70% of the time in normal driving. In my friends RX-8 I had to be much more conscious of clutch position and rpm/throttle position, much more than I need to while driving my TL.

Maybe I'm just an odd example since I learned how to drive MT in my TL with the valve the entire time. My previous experience with driving MT have been very minimal.

In full WOT shifting I notice that I can just shift and dump the clutch as I get on the throttle, I can feel the clutch slip for a brief second after I dump the clutch (I assume this is the valve doing its job?), but this also makes the shift much smoother.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Honestly, I haven't done a lot of hard launches from a standstill. I was referring to high rev shifts into other gears. I don't want to pollute this thread so I'll end it here.

JwongTLS

Erick, I think u should learn to drive with the slave cylinder first. It makes it easier for beginers to learn. After u get a hang of it then look into removing the checkvalve for redline rips. congrats on the pick up those are low miles for a 06!


watch some youtube vids yo

arrogantbastard

Ahh yes.. hills. The bane of new manual drivers.

Learn hill launches before you're in traffic. My first real experience on a hill was in lunchtime traffic in Mesquite, TX. I was 16 and my dad was riding with me, about a week after I got the car. Light turned red and he got the "look of impending doom" on his face. Light turns green - 3 stalls, several honks, and more middle fingers later I was finally on my way. I give my poor old dad a lot of credit in that situation for calmly coaching me through it and letting me learn rather than just taking over. Much better to do it on a deserted road...

WayneJay

I've never driven a 6MT TL. However, I have driven a 1G TSX 6MT several times. Is the 1G TSX 6MT much different from a 3G TL 6MT???

I bought my first manual tranny car (2003 Honda Civic EX sedan) two years ago and I love driving it. I take it to NYC quite often and one time I got high praise from my wife on the way I handled the traffic of mid-Manhattan in it. I took it as high praise becuase my wife learned to drive a manual tranny car in her teen years. I learned (and got confidence) about 8 years ago, but I'd drive one maybe a few times per year until I bought my Civic in Dec. 2007.

SouthernBoy

Absolutely. You want to have this down pat before getting in a real world situation.

SouthernBoy

Perhaps a dead giveaway question you can pose to find out whether or not someone really knows how to drive a manual transmission is to ask them to explain how they downshift. While there are a few other questions one can ask, I have found this one to be hands down, the clincher.

SouthernBoy

There are two little "tests" you can do that will tell you if you are driving your manual vehicle correctly.

1) You are not riding the clutch in any way during any clutching operation.

2) If you have passengers on board, they don't even know you have a manual.


In '94, my wife and I had to drive to St. Petersburg for her uncle's funeral. Her mom and dad went along with us. I was driving a '94 Honda Accord EX with a 5-speed transmission. My neither one of them noticed my car was a manual until we were in Florida. And just this past September when we were in South Carolina, we took some older friends with us to a restaurant we all liked in my '04 manual TL. The lady was pretty much unaware of the fact that it had a manual transmission.

This is your goal. Minimum component wear and maximum operation acuity.

arrogantbastard

*googling "how to properly downshift a manual transmission"*

brb

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

the hill... omfg... I think I picked a 9 o'clock hill to learn how to drive stick on...

kinda sucked too that I listened to a pall when I bought the clutch... lightweight flywheel and act 6puck clutch... ... quick release mandatory... stiffest clutch pedal in the world...

south: I do agree about the bad habits from other people, guess I was speaking for myself there, because I rarely grasp things when I read and get them clear as day when I actually perform... but honestly... learning how to drive stick in these new cars is awesome... my first manual (96 civic) was an adventure in its own...