I am prefacing this by saying that I love my new TL. However, the weather just got decent here for a day or two and with my windows down, I have to crank up the stereo practically to max to hear it. I haven't had this problem with other cars I've owned, including a 99 Saab and 96 Mustang GT Convertible, that I recently sold to afford this car. Maybe the TL needs an amp? I don't know how many watts it's supposed to put out. I would think that in this car that I would be getting blown away around the mid-volume setting. It's not a problem with the windows up. It also seems to be weaker on XM, but I even had this problem playing a CD.

 

I feel much the same. It's a great sounding system and very "clean" indeed. ..which might contribute to the "problem", since the cleaner a system is, the more power you need to get the desired output (distortion always makes things SOUND louder with less power). I think I read somewhere that total power is 225 watts...but that's not much when you break it down throughout the system's channels. I've had to crank it up when driving with windows down...maybe they thought no one would ever open their windows?? I'm thinking of adding an external amp...just wanna make sure it won't mess up the overall set-up of the system.

 

The Bose system in the Infinitis were over rated, IMHO Bose is totally over rated. The ELS in the TL is a very decent system with adequate power for average listening, it just does not have the power to delive the real punch that it shoudl be able to. I too read it was 225 watts, but driving all those speakers that does not leave much per channel. The TSX has 360 watts, go figure! I actually drove a 04 Solara with the Premium JBL system and thought it sounded cleaner and richer and mayeb had a tad more punch, too bad it was in a Solara!

 

I agree about Bose......great marketing strategy, so-so products. My wife has a Toyota Sienna with the JBL Premium system, but I was definitely NOT impressed with it....muddy-sounding big time. Perhaps it's the difference in the set-up in the van?

 

Perhaps someone here who has good familiarity with car stereo or who takes a chance and has good luck could report on an appropriate amping configuration for the stock stereo?

I wouldn't want to mess with the sound quality, nor would I want to turn my car into some sort of sound competition system. But adding an amp to boost the overall power would be reasonable- I'd just want it done "right" (I.E.: so that it retains the stock features/look).

 

I sincerely doubt that the ELS system has the alotted outputs needed for an aftermarket amplifier installation. Add to that the need for amplification on 6 discrete channels complicates things even further. In order to truly and effectively install an aftermarket amplifier the ELS system would need 6 analog pre-outs (just like you find in most new home receivers), or some sort of digital output that the amplifier could use. Technically you could use the speaker cable as inputs, but this is NOT the best way to go at all (not balanced etc). Add to this the need to crossover the sub so that it is not receiving a full range frequency and things start to get fun (for some people anyway).

So in this case you would need a 6 channel amplifier, some way of getting a true 6 channel output from the existing head unit (this is more than likely the deal breaker) along with some sort of crossover for the subwoofer (unless they have one inline in the speaker cable which is not ideal).

I would say this is not the easiest of installs!! Also even if you could bypass the hurdles that are present, you could end up with something that sounds WORSE than the factory unit. More power doesn't necessarily equate to better sound.

It has been some time since I dabbled in this area (previous car was torn to bare metal and completely re-wired for a competition audio system, and was then subsequently STOLEN). Maybe someone else could chime in on this.

I am awaiting delivery of my TL as we speak.

Is this audio system that bad?? I mean how underpowered is it? Are you talking about around town driving with the windows down, or are you referring to highway speeds?? I don't drive with the windows down that much on the highway so this would not be an issue for me, however if in around town driving the system is underpowered I am going to be disappointed!!

 

Nodoze2004,

I too have done competition audio systems in the past. Based on the knowledge I gained from that experience, I'd say the ELS system puts out about 90-100db of sound. The TL is very dampened, I'd say the noise floor with the windows and sunroof closed is in the range of 50-70db depending on the road surface. With the windows down, at highway speeds, the noise floor is going to rise to about 90db...which would pretty much washes out the ELS output. Driving around town with the windows down, there is enough power to enjoy the system.

Talking with the guy that’s done the system designs for me in the past the only thing he suggested would be to consider replacing the tweeters in the dash with something a little brighter to raise the high frequency response of the system in the short term.

Remember this system is built by Panasonic, it possible that they or some other high-end audio component company with come out with a "bridge" that will allow us to increase the power output with an aftermarket amp.

 

Ah, so you're the guy to ask. I just picked up my 2004 TL yesterday. I previously owned a 2000. I'm not someone who plays it loud, so I have no complaints about the volume. I am, however, less than impressed by the high frequency response. I like the system in my 2000 better. It sounded brighter.

On the Sound screen on the Navi I turned up the treble all the way and left all other settings at the neutral position and it still sounds rolled off. It's not really muddy. The sound if very clean. It just sounds like it's attenuating everything above 10k. The very high sounds are there, so it's not like what you'd hear from a crappy radio. It's almost as if the tweeters are either not balanced right for the car's interior or not placed right and the interior fabric is swallowing all the highs.

 

Having just retired my 2003 Infiniti G35, I would have to agree with all about the Bose system - good, overrated, but not great. The absolutely best sound system I've ever had was in my 2000 Chrysler 300M.

I haven't got a good feel for the settings on my TL, :banghead: but I'm not overly impressed (yet). Perhaps a survey is in order: what seetings do you have your system set for (left, right, center, subwoof, bass and treble). Maybe seeing what others have done might inspire me.

Thanks!

 

A few people have commented on the quality of sound with the windows down, and I've noticed this as well. Remember that the TL has extra thick "acoustic" glass in the windshield and many other measures to help keep noise out. With the interior as quiet as it is with the windows up, there is not as much noise for the sound system to overcome as in other cars, and so it sounds great.

However, open all the windows and you've got an extremely noisy environment to overcome (plus the imaging goes out the window, if you'll pardon the pun). I've had aftermarket systems with subs in a couple of my cars and the situation was the same with them; windows down, sound simply not nearly what can be achieved with windows up.

My preferred solution for many years has been to drive with the sunroof open to get the ventilation and maintain more of the sound. Plus then the air rushing through the car doesn't mess with the 'do!

Mike

 

I know what you're saying about the highs from the stock tweeters, I'm sure it's because they were going for a very natural sound. Talking with a few car audio people about this it appear the quick fix is to replace the OEM tweeters with a "brighter" aftermarket set. Pioneer has always been know for producing very bright tweeters, you might want to give them a listen...you do want to listen to any set you choose; it's a fine line between bright and tinny.

 

Thanks, I'll check it out. As I said, overall the sound system is really quite nice. That's my only complaint and it's certainly a function of the tweeters or their placement or both.

 

You can use speaker outputs to control an amp. I planned on doing this, i.e. putting the amps I have in another car in but for now I decided I liked the balance of sound even if there are some flaws.

In the home audio world, the expression is "no highs no lows, must be Bose"

 

in all honesty trying to match tweeters and drivers to the stock crossovers would be extremely futile. The only way to do so would be some sort of real time analyzer (RTA) and some serious math.

Does anybody have a frequency sweep of the interior to see if we can confirm any rolled off highs?

 

DVD is so superior to CD it's almost ridiculous. I had the CD version of REM greatest hits on CD, very uninspiring. On DVD its amazing. I cant wait for the format to catch on (only hope).

 

can the 6 channel amp be replaced by another one with more power ?

for example the Audiobahn 75-Watt x 6-Ch Amplifier, 75watts per ch/@ 4 ohms.
or 105 watts x 6 @ 2 Ohms.


or a combination of 2 x channel amps... (or even 6 1 x channel amps)

 

OK, all you audiophiles- now hear this.

I haven't had the nerve to put my volume any higher than four bars from the max. It's deceptive because the sound is so clean. I think we have grown accustomed to distortion and overmodulation as a characteristic of "high power." I realized this when I could not make myself heard to the passenger over the radio while shouting at the top of my lungs two feet away.

Even the subwoofer takes some getting used to. Crossovers being what they are, and music being what it is, the subwoofer is not always moving air because there is no source signal in its range at that time. Sometimes I don't think I can hear it (subwoofer) but then I realize that, if I can "hear" the subwoofer then it is probably not doing its job. It is non-directional and should fill in the low frequencies inobtrusively- but only when they are there. In the TL, it handles its assigned frequencies superbly without drawing attention to itself. The sound is rich and full (from a good source with sufficient dynamic range).

I have noticed quite a spread on input signal strength to the system. XM seems low, AM/FM so-so, some CDs high some not so high, and same for DVD-Audios. Cassett tapes (yes, I tried my Moody Blues tape) with Dolby NR was excellent. I feel so rich to have a choice of six sound sources! :worship:

As someone mentioned, we have a lot of total watts but, in 5.1 mode, they are divided among six discrete channels.

I think you have to be post adolescent and hormone soaked if this sound system isn't loud enough for you. Then again, I don't drive with the windows down because this is Florida and it is hot outside. Plus, nevermind the "noise" with the windows down. What is more of a factor is the "drum effect" the car body has with the fluctuating air pressure caused when the windows are down. It's like a throbbing, alternating pressure attack at highway speeds. It's not pleasant.

Lest I remind that music is just contolled waves of air pressure. When it has to compete with uncontrolled pressure differentials in the cabin with the windows down, the music or speech is going to suffer no matter the power on tap.

If you want a good test, slap the Foreigner DVD-Audio in and play track 2: Juke Box Hero and turn it up. If you still want more volume after that, there's something wrong with you.

 

Does any one know on the non-navi how high the volume numbers go? I think I had mine up to 30 once. What is the maximum? (I know you don't want to listen to it at that level but I am curious what the upper limit is.)

 

don't know about y'all but my volume (non-navi) can goes to the mid/upper 30s for maximum.

Much past that and I hear the amps clipping and a loss of dynamics.

Just remember the volume is nothing more that a gain control...if you have to push is to the upper 30/40s then so be it. Your ears will tell you when it too loud/feeding too much to the speakers.

 

The max is 40...been there, done that! There are only a very few songs that can be played at full. The rest should never go passed 35!

 

My very unscientific review of the sound system is this.

The ELS system does everything well, but isn't entirely exciting or inspiring to me. It feels dull, and not as detailed when compared to the system in my Honda Prelude, which consists of some standard mid to hi end components, from head unit to amplifier and speakers/woofers. I'm talking about a set of very poorly installed, but quality components.

I'm not one to listen to particularly loud music. In fact, I hardly ever turn up the ELS, simply because I don't find the sound very appealing. However, even at low volumes in my Prelude, I can truly appreciate the music, and the detail and imaging really astounds me.

I'm also not one that requires particularly bright highs either. I tend to prefer silk domed tweeters, that are slightly oversized... > 1 inch.

I would have to say, an amp would do the ELS wonders in addition to better tweeters, as many here have mentioned.

 

if the sound stage and speakers are picked and matched by mr ELS why dont you just leave them alone? loud music with the windows down is obnoxious.

 

...because it appears that Mr. ELS never listened to the damn thing in the car. I'm telling you that the system in my 2000 TL was much better. I don't like loud music and I don't have the windows open. What I don't like about the system is that it sounds very bassy and dull even with the treble turned up to max and everything else at neutral.

What I've noticed is that it sounds much more balanced at higher volumes. My problem is that these are volumes I don't normally use. It's almost as if it needs a different equalization at low volumes, kind of like the 'loudness' button they have on older amps to compensate for the different response of speakers at low volume.

 

I found this at http://www.caraudiomag.com/

"...The total package is not for everyone; there's definitely a specific demographic that the TL appeals to and the surround system is balanced if a bit tame; but the features and functionality the car has to offer can be seen as a fine model for creative car audio enthusiasts to follow and re-create, individualizing and refining according to their tastes..."

Also they had a interview with Elliot Scheiner, I thought you all might enjoy the read...

An Interview with Producer/Engineer Elliot Scheiner

CA&E: How did you get involved with Acura?
ES: Acura was through Panasonic. This has long been a dream of mine, to have 5.1 audio in a car. That's all I've been thinking about for years, since I started doing surround sound. I knew that the only way that this was going to happen was if it got in a car. Every format change that the music industry has had since vinyl went away has been governed by the automobile, whether it was the 8-track cartridge, cassette, or CD. That's going to happen now with DVD-Audio -- it's going to be ruled by the car. I knew Panasonic was a big player in automotive audio so I contacted the company. Through Panasonic I got involved in the Acura project.

CA&E: You worked with Mark Ziemba on that? How did your duties parcel out?
ES: Mark is the actual designer of the system. I make music for a living, I know what music should sound like. Getting into an automobile, putting one of my pieces of music in there, I know if it sounds right. My major duties were in the implementation of the system, how to make it sound right, what kind of equalization needed to be implemented, level checks, what the response should be from the surround speakers to the driver's seat and front seat -- it was a good deal of tuning time.

CA&E: The driver doesn't sit dead center. How do you compensate for that when you're tuning the system?
ES: Basically through levels. It's a little bit off-axis but you can compensate through levels to make it absolutely perfect.

CA&E: With DVD-A you don't necessarily have to have vocals or whatever in dead center.
ES: It's up to the guy who's mixing it and the artist as to how much they want to put in the center. The center speaker is a hold over from the film industry. We're trying to accommodate them, they're trying to accommodate us. To be honest, most of the mixers feel it's almost unnecessary, but because it's there for the film industry we've been using it. I personally use it to stress certain things, like a lead vocal or a snare drum. If I've got the snare drum or vocals phantom centered between the left and right, I'm going to put some on the center speaker because I want it to stand out a little more.

CA&E: How did you get started with 5.1?
ES: Initially I was called by DTS. I produced the Eagles' reunion record, Hell Freezes Over, and DTS called me saying it wanted a 5.1 surround mix of the album. I had no idea what DTS was talking about. A demo was set up for me and I got to see what it was all about. The first time I heard anything in 5.1 it was like I had fallen in love. I knew that this was going to be the new format. I did the Eagles record but I was very timid at first, and not sure how to address all the issues. If you listen to that DVD, you can hear from start to finish -- I did it in sequence -- how timidly I start off, but by the time you get to the end there's stuff all over the place.

CA&E: How do you approach remixing an album in surround?
ES: I try to go in there with no preconceived notions. I'm starting on Eric Clapton's 461 Ocean Boulevard next week and I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm going to take a look at the track breakdown and see what's available and basically just experiment. The one thing that I seldom stray from is putting the bass drums on the front side, and wrapping them around a little bit into the rear. But really there are no rules yet, and I don't think there ever will be. I recently got a call to redo a Van Morrison record that I mixed in 1969, Moon Dance. When I pulled up one of the tracks, "Crazy Love," it jogged a memory of myself walking from the control room into the studio to talk with Van about an issue. As I walked in they were still running down the song. I turned to Van and the drums were behind me along with the girl singers. On that one cut I ended up doing that, putting the drums in the rear. There's no rule -- there's no one who says I can't do this except for Van. After he heard it he called and said, "Gee, I love what you did with 'Crazy Love,' you should have done the whole record that way!"

CA&E: So when you're approaching a classic album you're not so much worried about sticking to the original?
ES: Oh no, I am. I'm totally worried about it, sonically anyway. I don't want the sonic structure to change. I don't want the levels -- in terms of instruments -- to change. If the drums are [at a certain level], they should be just so loud in the surround. Because it's spread out across five similar speakers, you tend to hear things a little better. Even when the levels are matched you tend to hear things you've never heard before. I did Toto IV and when I took it back to play it for the band, the keyboard player Steve Lukather heard this part he played on "Africa" and said, "I remember playing that part but I haven't heard it since the day I played it." Because with stereo there's so much that you have to compress and get into two channels, once you open it up into five channels you just hear it better -- aside from all the great definition and clarity that DVD-Audio has to offer.

CA&E: What other advantages does 5.1 offer?
ES: I've always wanted people to be able to hear music the way I hear it. The combination of DVD-Audio and cars now allows listeners to hear things just about the way I'm mixing them. Especially in this Acura system. It's really quite phenomenal. I pop in a DVD and I can't believe it. It's so close to what I'm used to hearing.

CA&E: Do you see this as being the foot in the door, and now it's going to spread?
ES: I sure hope so. That was the intent, to get somebody to buy into this, and Acura, when the company heard it for the first time, it totally understood it and thought that its buyers would love it. It [comes] standard [on the TL]; it's not an option. Once the other manufacturers hear it in the Acura it'll probably turn their heads around.

 

Good post…I was thinking the same thing this weekend when I turned up the volume and rolled down the windows. The sound is clean but isn’t loud enough for me.

 

re: DULL SOUND

I, too, was very dissapointed in the sound quality of this supposed "audiophile" system. The ELS system is bass-heavy, so the system is deficient in the upper mids as well as the highs. You CANNOT justturn up the highs to compensate.

However, there is an EASY fix I read about here a few months ago.

The SECRET is to TURN DOWN THE BASS and then just increase the overall volume level. Set the Bass to -2, Sub to -1, and then up the volume and you have just increased the mids and highs. You will find the sound quality and clarity to improve tremendously.

Also - the posts above are correct - a CLEAN system will sound less loud than a DISTORTED audio system at less power. Just listen to it for a while - you will realize that clean is better.

Another easy fix for the system is to replace the drivers with others that are higher in efficency and have better frequency response. 3dB of added efficiency is the same as getting an amp of double the power. ALL stock car speakers are incredibly low in cost - ALL of them - with performance to match.

 

Just got the word on the new sound system in the 2005 RL. DVD 5.1 by BOSE. Count me in.

 

all this talk of rolled off highs seriously warrants a RTA sweep of the stereo.

To me it is very, very balanced. A little laid back for sure but very sweet.

 

I have two 2004 Lincoln Aviators. The sound system in them is amazing, clear loud sound with superb non-distorted bass. Im thinking of getting a TL, will i be disapointed with the sound compared to the Lincoln aviator?

 

I would put the ELS system in the TL against anything currently on the market. There really isn't much comparison.

 

To those folks who don't think that the Acura ELS qualifies as a true audiophile system, I refer you to a review in "Absolute Sound." Not surprisingly, the ELS website reprints the review in full at:

http://www.elssurround.com/absolute_sound.asp


One of my favorite quotes in the review is:

"To the question, “Is the greater resolution of DVD-A audible within the confines of a car?” Not only can I respond in the affirmative, I can attest that there is simply no contest. The DVD-A system exceeded my expectations to an extraordinary degree. When I switched from the CD to the DVD-A of the aforementioned Planets, the sound leapt to an entirely new level of dynamics, tonal accuracy, resolution, power, and finesse. It was akin to switching from Polaroid snapshots to photos taken by a Leica—everything was vastly better. In addition, the DVD-A’s soundstage was no longer in front of me, but was now convincingly and compellingly enveloping. "

One should also take note of the recently held ELS "challenge," where virtually 90% of people attending the audiophile convention preferred the ELS system over 4 or 5 other very high end OEM stereo systems. Granted, they weren't listening while driving with the windows down, but you get the idea.
I guess the 10% who preferred other systems have audio preferences similar to the people dissing the ELS on this board.

My own experience is that I have never heard anything as thrilling as a dvd-audio played on the ELS. From Night at the Opera, to Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (Funeral for a Friend) and Buena Vista Social Club, my system rocks. Does it sound as good at 80mph as it does at 25mph? No, but I wish it did. Does it sound as good at 40mph with the windows open? No, but I wish it did. Do I wish I had attended a few less ZZ Top concerts in my youth and stayed a safe distance from the monitors? Well, no, but I regret what it did to my hearing. IMO, the trade offs in this system meet with the vast approval of all but the few who need louder sound.

 

I agree...everything post here is subjective. The RTA would give us an objective analysis of the system response. I'll see what I can do this week...I might be able to get a readout on the system.

 

right on.

one of my babies...

 

Holy Cow! Are those Martin Logans you got there? It's amazing technology and sounds damn good if you ask me. I auditioned a pair at Tweeters several months back and am quite amazed...visual impact not withstanding. Those things need lotsa power and dust up easily though. Enjoy them beasts!

dsc888

 

yep - they're the ReQuests...one of the martin logan gems over the years...huge panel and nice woofer crossed over at a low 180 hz. A steal if you can find some used but they do require a serious amplifier that doubles down to 1 ohm to do their magic.


Been into audio for about 20 years, installed car stereos thru college, etc. Fun hobby to be sure.

My point being is that most folks don't know what a good stereo sounds like. No offense meant of course, but many feel if it doesn't have a bang/sizzle sound something's wrong.

It is my opinion that the ELS system is very natural and provides excellant tone and balance. DVD-audio is just amazing in this thing.

 

Excellent points! I am one of those few guys who actually fell in love with the ELS at the dealership and picked the TL over the G35s so called premium Bose system. My girlfriend has the G35 and I turned up the stereo and realized how overly exaggerated the bass was (read muddy) and how quickly the mids rolled off. To the untrained ears...you think you were in audio heaven. Even my GF was amazed at how incredibly clean and balanced the ELS sounded when we shut the windows in the showroom car. Oh well.

I am more of a mid-fi audio enthusiast due to budget reasons. My HT setup at home consists of Infinity Alphas in a 7.1 setup driven by my Harmon Kardon 630 which fills the room with warm sounding music sought after by folks with tube amps from the good old days. Before I seriously hijack this thread, I am just glad that there is a decent handful of audiophiles and enthusiasts on this forum. GotJazz is one of those who will go into great detail about appreciating the ELS system. BTW, your MLs are definitely the envy of the music lover community. If only money was no object....

dsc888

 

My first question is,do you guys really drive with your windows down..second question,why ??? But as far as the stereo goes in the TL,it's the best "stock" system I have ever heard,IMHO it's loud enough,I have owned a few nice stereos in the past(1200 watts..0003 thd)To all you young guy's,take care of your self..you might grow old and being deaf does suck(and hearing aids dont work on the hearing loss you suffer from the booming bass)

 

Thanks Numex for the article on the ELS system.

It's nice to hear some of our concerns echoed by experienced sound guru types. The reviewer also seemed to pick up on some of our concerns surrounding the mids and highs:

"My main complaints are a recessed midrange that causes vocals to sound a little hollow, and high frequencies that, due to a lack of complete extension, miss some transient details. However, the system makes up for these shortcomings with superior imaging, a rich tonal balance, and bass that’s powerful, punchy, and passably tight. I must say, it’s nice to hear car bass that is actually deep—as opposed to just loud."

I have to agree with this comment in particular. The ELS does have the ability to go low when necessary, unlike the bloated, exaggerated bass that comes from BOSE, that generally just plays loud and obtrusively.

However, vocals ON CDs...doesn't sound to me as forward and present as I would like, and based on the reviewers comment, I guess I'm really missing some of that extension in the highs.

Has anyone made any steps towards addressing this in their own cars?

I just want the TL to sound as much like my home listening setup as possible, and I've found my previous installs to match it with stereo sound much more aptly.

Maybe I should just invest more in DVD-A, and enjoy the imaging! ...but to this point, all my music is pretty much CD.

Any ideas?

 

I would say invest in DVD-A,their are a few albums out their,nothing like CD titles but after hearing the DVD-A it's hard for me to buy CD's.

 

I read a lot of reviews about the stereo before I got my car so I was probably expecting too much. When I listened to it at the dealers from the 5.1 demo disk I was thrilled as it sounded great. Once I was on the road and had just a cd in there, heavy metal cd, it didn't sounds as good. So I went to best buy to get a dvd-a for Queensryche Empire album. This dvd sounds very good compared to the cd I was listening to earlier. I have to say, for a stock stereo it is a very nice system. Compared to my prior 2000 323i the ELS is a dream.

I think Acura went with a concert hall type system for a slightly older buyer rather than a mega bass type system for younger drivers. Sounds like the TSX system was built with lots of watts for the younger buyers.

I'm still playing around with the settings to get the right sound for metal music but overall I'm pleased.