Before buying the 3G TL-S we looked at the RL. SH-AWD sounded like a cool feature - all that technology helping to improve turning performance.

No more Torque Steer. No more complaints from the press about how a FWD car isn't *really* a sporty car. No more "inferiority complex" next to the G35/37, IS250/350, 3-Series, etc. It always sounds like everyone will be happy if Acura puts SH-AWD in the 4G TL, but I keep wondering: Is it REALLY a good idea?

- Won't it add weight?

- Won't it reduce HP through increased Drive Train loss?

- Will it really increase the OVERALL performance of the car?

- Won't it take the "driving experience" of the TL out of your hands even more than VSA/TC?

The only way I can think to make SW-AWD REALLY attractive is if it comes with a "Sport" or "Performance" mode that sends most (say 90%+) of the power to the rear wheels. With a healthy bump in HP, that'd be killer.

 

There will be a weight increase but if they go with a higher stroke motor to add some more lbs. of torque it will be well worth it... now if it is a sh-awd with 3.5 v6, that is just dumb... if they do 3.7 v6 it will easily compensate or if they actually incorporate performance into a j-series by offering 3.5 v6 for base tl and DOHC 3.5 for the Type S...

I for one can't wait for the test mule to appear with less camo and more details

 

What about the tranny with all the added weight and power?

Acura had better commit major time to solve the tranny issues, before they add any more weight and power.

 

To answer your question with a question:

Will all 2009 TLs come equipped with the SH-AWD? Or will it be an option? I've been wondering... does Acura want to go the way of Audi and Subaru (having AWD on everything they produce)?

I'm not sure that AWD on everything would go over well with the "average" Acura customer. AWD is still an option on most cars. Maybe Acura is aiming for a cult following of customers similar to the Subaru fan base. Or maybe they came up with a fantastic AWD system that can deal with...

 

^^

Who knows for sure? Mostly rumors here and some statements by Acura. They've said that they are commited to SW-AWD across more (all?) of the product line. Assumptions here seem to be twofold:

1. Over 300 HP
2. SH-AWD. Partly to deal with the added HP/Torque.

Stillhere153: Look over in the RL forum. The RL has the same engine as the TL-S very slightly tweaked to 290 HP. However the dyno run I found there is 190 WHP un-modded - thats a 30+% HP loss to the wheels. I know they are not exactly the same car, but they are a similar platform. How much of that is due to SH-AWD? . But, the TL loses only around 17% of it's rated HP today.

Also RL 0-60 times are 6.9 (MSN Auto) to 7.3 (Edmunds full test). For a 290 HP engine, I'd say that's lethargic.

I agree completely that for SH-AWD to improve the TL's performance, they'll need a REAL HP bump.

 

The best thing for Acura to do would have the SH-AWD as an option. I myself think the car is perfect the way it is. I'm not a speed demon no do I car about how fast I can get the car from 0-60sec.

It seems unlikely that they'll switch over to a RWD format. A FWD base and SH-AWD option would be the smartest thing. However, the base would be severely behind the 8-ball when it comes to competitors. seems like everyone else is moving towards more powerful and 300hp+ engines.

 

1) SH-AWD is a given.
2) More HP is a given.

Both of these are backed up by statements from Honda and/or common sense.

So why are we here? If at all, this topic should be in the already rather bloated '09 thread.

 

I LIKE my FWD TL-S... am I the only one??

I enjoy spinning the tires from time to time... lol

 

plus i heard that the clutch will go bye bye no standard trannys...so that means a beamer for me in 09. I NEED A CLUTCH

 

3) Poor gas mileage is a given.

Joe

 

Yes, it would. But if they develop a gearbox similar to BMW’s SMG which is basically robotized manual, they can save more weight than AWD would add. That think would have real sporty paddle shift and would save some gas too.

Yes, it would.

Yes, it will. Do not forget that Audi was eliminated from touring car racing because its AWD was considered as an unfair advantage.

No, it won’t. It would just shift set of skills required, making some of them absolute and some new to be mastered. That’s progress. One can follow it or stay in the Stone Age.

Well, that’s RWD. The one serious cars always had.

 

+1 here ... unless the new 09 type-s has huge improvements over the current one, i would stick with my current toy for a few years more ...

 

chill_dog, I don't mean for this to be a "Wish List" or a "Latest Rumor" thread, but a debate about the benefit or lack thereof of adding SH-AWD to the TL. If the mods feel it needs to moved, then so be it.

All I'm suggesting is that if something ~310 HP Plus SH-AWD is what we've got to look forward to, then, based on the RL HP loss, the TL will be emasculated - we'll be driving around a bunch of 4G performance pigs.

BTW - I looked up the specs on the TL v the RL and they are nearly identical in external and internal size. The RL adds 3" in length (all that goes to wheel base) and 400 pounds, other-wise they are virtually the same. Wonder where that 400 pounds comes from?

 

is that official or speculation? if official, please provide a link. thanks.

 

If they where to pick up SH-AWD on all there cars, I would no longer be interested in them. With the amount of power loss Acura is seeing with there SH-AWD systems, and the lack of a manual transmission, I would have to find something else to drive. I am very satisfied with the current set up. Not to mention the loss you would see in Fuel economy. Just my

 

Yeah. But not really. It'd save some power "in reserve" for cornering/handling interaction and it would not be on "all the time", but "user selectable".

I think that currently, under straight line full throttle, the RL will only get about 40% of power to the rear.

But, in effect, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Send enough power to the rear, in some kind of performance mode, to make the car essentially "part-time" RWD.

 

A few of the people who have upgraded to the RL have said the SH-AWD provides a vast improvement in handling.

I think 310 is a little low...320-330...I also wouldn't expect as much loss as the RL, but the 17% noted above would definitely increase.

 

SH-AWD is the shiznit. My wifes RDX handles better than my TL---and thats a friggin suv.
I would be first in line to buy a 6 speed manual TL with SH-AWD.

 

Bearcat94, you are one of the very few guys who does have some "sense". Good. Good for you.

Unfortunately there are immense amount of fucking morons in this Acurazine forum who think opting for an AWD tranny on the TL will simply make the car perform better. They just think ONE thing but ignore the rest. There are too many newbies here. YES, once move on to AWD system the car will have significant increase in weight. Say the Acura puts out 305 HP on this new platform it will perform like a cock shit.... It WILL get worse timing on the 0-60 and ESPECIALLY from 0-100 or 0-140~150. It will perform like stinky donkey ass cow UNLESS Acura manages to decrease the curb weight down to something around 2600 lbs. Even though there still will be a drive train loss (channeling power to 4 wheels) the significant decrease of weight and Close-ratio 8 speed high-tech tranny will save the Acura's ass. That will keep the performance up and you can get by with just 305 HP. To obtain such of weight increase on a fairly large car like a TL will need to use full Titanium chassis and most of the engine and tranmission parts. 80% titanium and 20% steel and aluminum. Take the McLaren F1 wheels for the 4th gen TL. Those are made of full Magnesium for ultimate light weight. The cost of the new TL would be around $180~ 240k. That's enough to buy a nice house. Okay?


If the weight reduction isn't going to be done, option B is to increase the power to BARE MINIMUM 400 HP and 400 ft-lb or Torque and 7000 rpm good'ol VTEC. That would be just barely enough to barely beat the Lexus IS350 from 0-120 mph. The All-Ghey-Ass-Wheel-Drive car generally shines from a dig, from a stand still and tight cornering at low speeds. High-end is crap. That is why you need so much more power to accommodate for the high speed acceleration, not the 0-60 crap.


If you want MINIMAL drivetrain loss get the 6MT Regular TL. FWD with stick is most efficient in power transfer. That is why the regular 6MT TL (258hp) is able to keep up with the 300 hp RWD cars.




What the fuck I am trying to say is, going with AWD is incredibly a stupid idea..... if they are going to stick with gay ass 5 speed tranny and no reduction in vehicle weight, it needs stage 3 weight reduction. Trim down good 1000~ 1500 lbs. Reduction or more power, either way you go, it's gonna get very expensive. It is better to just release TWO version of Acura TL cars, one with AWD and one with Two wheel drive.

 

You answered your own question. YOU know the answer. You don't need to ask any of these dumb asses in the Acurazine forum. They are not in your level so they won't be able to help you, instead they will come up with more crap and excuses.

stillhere153 and Mishar are fuckin' morons. Ignore them.

 

It don't freakin matter if it's robotized manual or not. The power still channels to all 4 wheels so a lot of power gets lost. Don't rely on the stupid SMG. You would need some 7 or 8 speed tranny with very close gear ratio to keep the power band up. Tall gears, weight of the car, and channeling out power to 4 wheels are the ultimate reason to slow the car down.



It ain't worth shit at high-end. Only shines from a dig and tight cornering and hair-pin but once you get to the straightaways you are fucked. A FF 300 HP touring car will KILL the 300 HP AWD car in the track overall. The Audi is excluded because they can't keep up, not because it's got the advantage, dumb ass.




Well, that’s RWD. The one serious cars always had. [/QUOTE]
You need to learn from the original poster. He can help you many things.

 

Heeeeeeeey! That's MY line! I say exactly the same thing about the SH-AWD on my RL all the time. One of the reasons I traded up from my '04 TL was that I was rather (OK, bitterly) disappointed when the TL-S didn't have SH-AWD.

The RL was clearly a test bed for many technologies, including SH-AWD, that are making their way down the Acura line. We can tell that because Acura gives a rat's ass that it's selling only 500 copies a month--the car has served its purpose.

SH-AWD in the RL improves the handling significantly. In the turns, giving a little gas causes the outside wheel to turn faster than the inside wheel. This causes the car to be neutral in the turns, as opposed to the usual FWD habit of understeer. In fact, if you give too much gas, you may induce slight oversteer. The RL handles in turns as if it were several hundred pounds lighter.

I truly hope that the next TL gets this treatment. It will make the TL unstoppable. With more power and SH-AWD as an option, the next TL will rock as long as Acura doesn't FUBAR the styling. All of you hoping for RWD should give up now as Acura has shown absolutely no interest in RWD. Ideally, Bearcat's idea would be implemented, with much of the torque going to the rear. THAT would be tits.

With that said, I believe that Acura needs to step up and say that they plan to become the Japanese Audi, with FWD cars and AWD as an option. This approach works VERY well for Audi. Acura has already said they intend SH-AWD across the entire Acura line, and there are multiple hints of power bumps across the line, and an early update for the RL next year.

Note: merging into 4G TL thread. Edit: there is no official 4G TL thread, will make this one it

 

just re-design it, make it a RWD Platform-SH AWD , with a VTEC V-8 , more torque & power!....and whala it's done!...a better TL-S!

 

MM, while I appreciate your enthusiastic support, there's no need for name calling - it'll not only get my thread locked, it's impolite.

Besides, stillhere153 seems to be a pretty nice guy for a F'n moron.

 

what's up w/ the name calling?

 

I agree. This is a nice, friendly debate on the future of our favorite car. Please watch tongues.

 

How do you know this? Ever do any measured tests or take them both out at the same time? I bet the RDX "feels" like it handles better with less bodyroll than the TL.

AWD does not make a car handle better unless the driver is that crappy. I will take a RWD car around a track faster any day. This is assuming you're "racing" on asphalt and even on slippery surfaces, the average driver will not know how to take advantage of the AWD properly to go fast.

Wow, Acura came up with a way to make the TL even more boing to drive... With 300hp and the usual 50lbs or torque at 10,000 rpm, rwd would make much more sense than AWD. These cars flat out don't have enough power to justify AWD in a straight line. What is it that everyone expects to get from AWD? I guess it's kind of a small step up from FWD though.

 

Never heard anything good about the SMG transmission, but complaints in every magazine review I've ever read. Last I heard is BMW was trying to revise the SMG to work more like Audi's DSG which receives rave reviews. The DSG is supposed to be smooth as butter with it's dual clutches. I've never driven one, but I did drive an SMG M3, and it was rather jerky when doing casual cruising, which is where all the complaints about it come.

I'd like to see Acura develop a good sequential manual tranny!

 

This is right on target with the questions I've been asking myself. A modest increase in HP (say, to compare to the G35 or IS350) is not justified for AWD. I don't know the "right" number, but I gotta guess at least a 20% increase on the TL-S's 286 HP to make it worthwhile.

And, although I don't know what "everyone expects", most of the posts on the '09 go something like: "4G. 300+ HP and SW-AWD :woohoo:", and that just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Just remember the Honda Research and Development TL Type S ran better lap times at Thunderhill than the Spoon RL.

 

You're welcome. I will try to be civil as possible. I'm only doing this for you. I don't give a heck about anyone else, ESPECIALLY the Mods (Ron A and Trancegaymission)


It appears you are pretty well experienced in cars too. Good for ya.

Your point is well taken and agreed. Yup, the RDX is a gay vehicle. A while back Japanese magazine article from Best Motoring had reviewed and extensively tested '07 TL Type-S 6MT(ONLY, no ghey 5AT's), '07 G35 Sport Sedan, and '07 Lexus IS350, and Acura RDX (4 wheel lams ass drive). Guess what.... the less powered TL Type-S 6MT came out on top with 2 Full seconds lead from the G35 sport. The RDX came LAST, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yy last. It was so slow it was not even funny.


People here in Acurazine(the majority of the people, young members in the age of 18~ 25 and "some" old hags who are very ignorant), generally, older dude who has experience in racing(sophisticated road course tracks, not the ghey ass drag strip) know some stuff.

The ultimate answer is that the AWD is not God. It does not give you wings so you can go fast in the corner. They think about *grip*, but have no clue about "acceleration" and overall throughput in high speed acceleration, especially from 60~ 140 mph. I don't want a ghey ass car that only shines from 0-60 but accelerates like dog shit up into the 3 digits. The problem is many people don't think. NO!! 330 HP is NOT gonna cut it. 360 HP and 360 torque will make even in the high speed acceleration if you are lucky.... assuming the car weighs 3800 lbs. You need about *400 HP* to "start" outperforming the competitors like RWD G35 and IS350 in the straights.


I say 340 HP RWD TL Type-S *6MT* with gross weight of 3390 lbs would do some ownage. For lame ass Auto trannys, come up with some 6 or 7 speed close ratio transmission. Tall gear = NO NO.


Auto tranny will take away power.
Heavy weight of the car will take away power.
Tall gears will take away power.
AWD will take away whole chunk of power.

 

Guys don't feel bad about the drivetrain power loss, my 260hp CLs dynoed at 200hp stock, that is a 23% loss!

I believe Honda/Acura purposely left SH-AWD off the TLs for 2 reasons...
1. A 3.5L +SH-AWD TLs would have cannabalized RL sales, which the TL already does.
2. SH-AWD would not move from the RL to the TL, without a new and more powerful RL due soon enough.

I think H/A might even stick with the "Type S" route on the TL, maybe "bumping" the SH-AWD 4th Gen TL to 300hp and sticking the increased hp 3.7 in the new RL. This would give room for a 3.7 Type S a bit later. Either this or maybe the new RL will even have a V-8!

SH-AWD transfers 70% of power to rear wheels under WOT correct? The reason why RWD won't happen is because H/A uses basically the same platform for the TL, Accord, Odyssey, MDX, and RL IIRC. The NSX and S2000 are RWD because they are on their own platform I believe.

 

Audi’s DSG is nice concept, but it involves computers decision about presetting next gear and I am not really sure that it will always make perfect decision. I have to try it one of this days.

SMG is classic manual gearbox with hydraulically controlled clutch and shifting. It can be adjusted to shift smooth or sporty. I believe that there are 9 positions. If everything is OK it works perfectly. If not… well… may be Honda can make it better.

DSG and SMG are street sequential gearboxes. Those on racing cars are not synchronized.

 

H/A has been known to have mostly great manuals. I just sold my 95 6MT Legend coupe and the tranny was smooth, powerful, tight, and still felt great even at 180k. The TLs has the same 6MT that originated in the 03 6MT CLs, which feels even better than the Legend. If it ain't broke why fix it?

As for the power increase, I don't think it's coincidence that while most cars are gaining more power, they are also gaining more weight.

 

As a long time Saab owner (Got rid of Number 12 for the TL), I have been fairly impressed with The TLs relative lack of TQ steer.


As a long time Subaru owner (Still have number 11), I am really looking forward to an AWD 300+HP version of the TL. I would also like to see a bit more performance based aftermarket.


Just for reference, I have done a couple older subaru FWD to AWD conversions. The difference is like night and day. If H/A can achieve a decent balance between weight and performance, an AWD TL could be a beautiful thing.

 

[I don’t like SH-AWD. It is complicated, heavy and consumes too much power. I would say that it was designed for luxury cars and SUV’s, not for sports cars. It is FWD with computer controlled RWD assistance. Actually it may be good for sporty TL if they switch the way that axes are powered, so it would be RWD with computer controlled FWD assistance. They also need to shift quite some weight to the rear. That would improve handling, acceleration and braking.

 

I assume that 4G TL will have at least two engines to choose from v6 and probably long awaited v8 !

why ?

after Honda press release of new 08 Accord - (flagship) and information about it's detuned 3,5 V6 i-vtec (present in TL-S, RL, Ody and Ridge) producing 268hp I can hardly say what powerplant can compete with all G37 and IS350 not to mention some german cars...

Remember Acura has TSX which in Europe is sold as Accord which means it will get same 2.4 inline four and in Europe probably 2.0 and 2.2 i-ctdi,
going back to USDM where engines are bigger and more powerful actual 3.7 from MDX will not stand in the crowd even if they retune PCM or ECU and give more ponnies and torque, adding SHAWD will be just to heavy.
TL left with V6 will hardly compete with 2.3 Turbo what probably will TSX get.

Can You all TL lovers imagine TL with v8 ? small block like decades chevy did, I do not understand why largest engine manufacturer in the world do not offer v8 and RWD vehicles ?

The answer is - look what they did to their F1 car ? Remember Senna and his challenge, his participation in loved NSX ? who else gave ferrari a kick in the ass ? Honda did !

IMO Acura will get the V8, otherwise ther flagship RL and Legend in Europe will sink, and MDX will start to fade after one shiny year.

 

Two points:

1. As some of you may recall, I dyno'ed my RL in the name of science about six months ago. (Click the "my car" link" in my signature to review the numbers, etc.). The drivetrain loss was about 35%. If SH-AWD is transferred to the TL, a more powerful engine is absolutely necessary to make up for that drivetrain loss. Add to that Honda's tendency to love high-revving engines over low-end torque, and there is a potential problem here. If we can at least have more power, that'd be great!

2. You are correct--under full power up to 70% of torque is transferred to the rear wheels. We RL owners have a diagram in our MIDs showing the amount of torque shifted between the various wheels, and I can verify that most of the power goes to the rear wheels under full launch. With milder launches, torque goes to all four wheels. As a result, a) NO TORQUE STEER--I absolutely do NOT miss this at all from my TL; b) Minimal squat when taking off. It seems to me that at least at launch, SH-AWD becomes, for a time, rear-wheel biased.

Again, RWD ain't gonna happen unless Acura has a rabbit up its sleeve it's not sharing with us. SH-AWD is likely the future, and it works great. My only beef is the weight--it adds 200 pounds to the RL's weight.

As to a V8 in the TL....not gonna happen either. Otherwise, what would go in the RL? There's talk of a V8 in the next RL. Can't have the same powerplant in the new TL and RL early on, can we?

 

Even if that dyno was not accurate it is terrible. More powerful engine can bring up performance, but what about 1/3 of wasted gas.

Here is a link to video that explains how SH-AWD works: http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

It is marketing approach but there are some technical details. There is no mid or rear differential. Just two computer controlled electrically actuated clutches, one for each rear wheel, two speed gearbox that lowers the torque on clutches by speeding them up and two planetary gear sets that brings rpm back down after clutches. Way too many thinks rotating in oil and wasting power.

Gradual clutch engagement determines amount of power transferred to each rear wheel. So it goes from 0, when clutch is disengaged, to whatever it can transfer to the ground when clutch is fully engaged. Under acceleration both clutches are engaged so it acts as 100% limited slip differential RWD with some help from front wheels. Since there is not mid differential power is going to the axle that can transfer it to the ground. For example: if rears are on slippery spot it would go to front wheels. Rears would rotate at same rpm but would not consume any power.

The most peculiar think is that two speed gearbox. It speeds up rear wheels, or rather one of them, in curves. That is supposed to minimize understeer and it does, but, as I see it, not in right way. Instead of improving front grip it spoils rear forcing outer wheel to slide. Something like drifting. That way sliding of front end is “covered” by even greater rear end sliding. It might feel good but I don’t think it is fast. But if it feels good it will sell. Who wants to be fast anyways?

You are probably right. I think that whole concept is not really promising. Too much weight at the front creates all kind of problems. They are improving it making it more and more complicated instead of changing wrong concept. Cadillac did it recently.

Transversal V8 concept would be exactly what Cadillac left for longitudinal RWD one. Off course BMW, Mercedes and other serious players never tried it on anything more powerful than shopping cart.