I have enjoyed this board and used it extensively since I heard about the new TL and then finally got to drive it numerous times as I narrowed my search for a new car. Thanks to all of you who continually offer advice and informed opinions.

In the end, I rejected a number of other alternatives and narrowed the field to the TL, G35, and Saab 9-5 Aero. Living on a hilly street I was not keen on RWD and was not about to spend even more for the G35 AWD. I liked the car but thought it was a bit overpriced, never mind the additional ~$2K for AWD.

I liked many aspects of the TL, but not the way it accelerates. I went back for three test drives to see if it was just me or you really had to redline it to get it to move. Notwithstanding that Neuronbob didn't share this experience, and others have said the car "adapts" to your driving style.

In the end (yesterday) I bought a new 2003 Saab Aero for $100 more than the TL (don't be fooled by the $41K sticker, when GM has a $4K cash back going and your timing is right (end of calendar year/model year/bad sales month, etc.) you can get almost $8K off the sticker). I'm sure everyone on this board thinks Saab produces an unreliable car that depreciates mercilessly - trust me, I lost sleep for weeks on this decision! And this isn't a Saab board so I won't go on about what I liked about the car, but to me it drove like the 330 or G35 while being as luxurious as Lexus and as feature-heavy as the TL (I mean driving features; I still bow down before the Bluetooth, XM radio, and DVD-a).

To close out the acceleration issue I raised above, the Saab provided more horsepower at lower RPM's AND (due to the turbocharger) 258 ft-lb of torque starting right from 1900 RPM. The acceleration is smooth and instantaneous - 0-60 in 6.5, according to one source, but the automatic has a "sport" mode that cranks it up to 6.2, according to my salesdude. The car flies, which was important to me.

Again, discussing other cars may have no place on this board, so forgive the indulgence and happy motoring. I'll probably be waving to y'all from the Saab service waiting lounge!

 

I had a 2001 Saab 9-5 SE. Not the same as the Aero, but close enough. I liked my Saab. I was relible, but not as much as my Acura. The biggest down side to a Saab is the resale value. It sucks! All that discounting drives the resale value down. I too got a great deal, 2K under invoice. Keep it for atleast 3-4 years or you will take a bath.

 

I had a 99 Saab 93. I loved the turbo - and the car had a lot of neat things. I did not like 22 trips to the dealer in 3 years for warranty items. It was nice to get a 95 aero wagon loaner for a week at a time though.

And the resale was a killer - you definately have to keep this car or take a big loss.

THe aero has a great motor and is pretty fast - and comfortable. And the great night panel display. I miss that.

Good luck

 

Interesting because I was considering an used 9-5 Aero 2000-2001.

Because I like its Euro cachet and its external styling pleased me much more than the previous TL.

A lot of space compared to 3 series and A4. The TSX was too short on power and engine refinement, too.

But the new TL changed my mind.

 

The Saab is a sweet-looking car. And you got it for a great price. I've never owned one but admit there is some appeal to having the starter on the center console.

Good luck with your car!

 

Kudos to you for making what I consider a gutsy move. I, too, have been scared of buying a Saab because of the perceived problems. A friend of mine who owned a used 9-3 proclaimed it problem-free. Go figure. But there is a certain cachet to owning a Saab that you don't get from any other car. I am usually envious of Saab owners since they are smarter than I am. Congratulations!

 

Good choice - I had it narrowed down to the Aero and TL. GM was discounting the Saab to the point there was very little price difference. I have had three Saab's and most recently 01 CLS.

I purchased the TL based on prior Saab expirence , residual value, lease rates and 01 CLS was a great car.

 

9-5 Aero has ventilated seats, too!

 

You'd think that the Swedes would be the last ones to worry about butt sweat, but then they go and install an AC vent and little fans inside the two front seats to blow cold air up through the perforated leather. But I did not get this feature - I was bottom-feeding for price on leftover 03's and all the sweaty guys must've beat me to the cars with this option.

 

I'm glad you brought up the Saab comparison. The Saab marketing team must hate cruisin a board like this where about every car imaginable is compared against the TL except the Saabs (and maybe the Cadillac CTS). Good luck - my brother in law had one and loved it (except, of course, the reliability thing). Hey, maybe we Americans have done something right and brought UP the reliability on the Saabs and Jaguars (I do know that Ford has had a positive impact on the Jag).

 

Just think, if Saab would improve the quality of service in their dealerships, they would be taken seriously. My wife and I walked into a Saab dealership and nobody even said "hi" to us. But the salesman held the door open for us on our way out after browsing around for at least 15 minutes without being acknowledged.

 

I think Saab 95 Aero has one of the most comfortable seat in the car industry.

I sat on a 2002 95 Aero and was amazed by the contour and ergonomic of the front seats.

 

Have owned 2 Saabs previously (old '78 99EMS along with a turbo 900). Test drove a new 9-3 Arc recently (2.0T, 5 speed stick). Yes, resale sucks. Yes - there have been numerous problems reported with electrical gremlins, blah, blah, blah. Still - cruising around Richmond (in rush hour traffic), I couldn't get the SEG off my face. Absolutely loved it - especially just cruising down the interstate in 4th with tons of traffic anhilating torque, and heaven forbid, a semi-quick downshift to 3rd will get you arrested by Henrico County's finest :p in a heartbeat. The best seats for me, scandivanian design (still awesome), perfect driving position FOR ME (YMMV) - I may buy one myself. $0.02

 

I have been eyeing the 9-5 Aero myself. True, the 41K pricetag is bogus - you can get it for 32-34K pretty easily. I haven't driven the manual Aero yet, but it has this overboost feature which, on hard acceleration, would kick the torque maximum from 250-something to like 270 lb-ft for about 20 seconds. I've had a weak spot for Saabs myself because of their turbos and Euro style. I do have concerns about reliability of those cars, and that's why I'm here. If Saabs had Acura's track record for reliability, I'd be in a 9-5 in a heartbeat without further consideration

 

I too absolutely love the design of the 9-3, especially with the optional body kit. I really do not see why so many here are worried about resale value and reliablity when it seems so many complain about the tl, and I do not know about you guys, but I bought my tl for around $27k two years ago and I am seeing them being sold for like $16-17k in some places. At that rate, this car will be worth about $4-5k in two to three years when I am ready to sell it. I don't know from personal exprience because I have never owned a Saab, but ten thousand in two years is quite a drop off. Just my opinion.

 

Please keep in touch with this board as you own your new Saab. I'm interested to see if any reliability problems crop up. I'm actually looking into selling my 2000 S430 for the new TL So I'm kinda of faced with the same decision.

Dizzy

 

Did you drive the Linear? Just want to know how it performs. Hey, Deniss do you know how much the discounts are on the 9-3s?

 

Gee folks, to me comparing a Saab to an Acura is sort of like comparing a Ford to a Honda. Wait a minute.........

 

Saab is owned by GM.

 

I think Saab owners belong to a special breed. Can't easily be classified. They are not mainstream. Ford is mainstream, and so's Honda. You buy Saabs because you don't care what anyone thinks and you don't want a car that looks or feels the same as anyone else. Tell you what, I test drove the TSX and felt that it was bland. It did not engage me the way I would have liked. Maybe that's why people buy Saabs, quirkiness, reliabilty problems, low resale value and all.

 

Great point Maxim.

To make an analogy, Saabs are like Macintosh Computers. I'm a Mac user and have been for years. I tell folks that and the act like I'm crazy. But the Mac has its strengths, great looking (who want a beige box on their desk), viruses don't impact Macs near as much, are as fast or faster than PCs, but... they aren't cheap, they don't have as much software, their weird, etc.

Now I will be test driving a Saab this weekend to make sure I want a TL, so who knows what will happen. I may fall in that group of misfits that a Saab driving Mac users.....

Just goes to show that what is important to one person isn't a big concern of the next. It is this diversity that keeps us all from having to drive a Ford Model T with black paint.

 

Mook - If you are going to try Saab be sure to drive the 9-5 Aero, which I think is the only model that truly compares to the TL in terms of ride/handling/acceleration. If your dealer has any 03's left you should be able to get the price down to around the same as the TL. But waiting until this weekend would mean missing the end-of-month negotiating factor. However, you will probably opt for the TL if you are a Honda/Acura fan and so active on this board. But let everyone know your impressions of the car. Of course, you can't experience the reliability and resale value issues on a test drive . . .

 

Exactly. But you are not a misfit for using a Mac or driving a Saab. Just like the hot babe who falls for the nerd is not a misfit. She sees other things that are subjectively desirable about him.

 

I guess another thing we need to keep in mind is that not everyone uses a car in the same way. I'm sure there will be 04 TLs that do nothing but go from home to work each day, some will only be driven for long trips, some will be raced on the weekend and driven to school during the week.

We all don't use a car in the same way and thus our needs are different and as a result our expectations are different. We have to keep an open mind when posting and reading posts. When someone asks a question or voices an opinion it comes from their point of view, which more than likely isn't the same as yours.

Stepping off my soapbox now....

I'm looking forward to driving the Saab, just to see what it is like. I'm 90% sure I'm going for a TL, but I want to be sure. I drove an Infiniti G35 and FX35 immediately after driving the TL and I must say both of those vehicles were impressive as far as performance and handling. If they had better interiors I'd have a more difficult choice. At least their sport shift lets you shift from first to second.

 

If you got a great deal on the G35 would you consider it in place of the TL? Tell us what you like about the SAAB. I'm curious now.

 

Those were my finalists as well: TL, G35, and 9-5 Aero. I did pass on what I thought was a good deal on a G35 sedan: $31.5K, including delivery charge. It had automatic, Premium package, heated seats and wood trim, although with 3400 dealer demo miles on it. I loved the way it handled but it seemed light on features for a "luxury car" and the interior was also unimpressive. I felt a bit like I was in a rich kid's toy car, not designed for a guy who wants performance but also needs to haul around a family and their stuff. And the RWD, although great on performance, had me worried about my poorly-plowed hilly side street in winter.

I loved and bought the 9-5 - possibly a mistake in the long run - will be interested to hear your assessment of the same three cars.

 

lets see a pic of ur new car..

 

Fencesitter, I drove the G35 and like you I was impressed by the handling characteristics. The interior was a disaster. I live in the DC Metro area and don't get as much snow as you probably get; last year was an aberration. The G35 would be a good alternative to the TL. Strangely, I have never driven a SAAB, but I have always lusted after it. I think the reliability has been improved, and the owners seem to either swear by it or take its perceived problems in stride. The 9-5 is refined, and Consumer Reports Recommends it. I see a lot of the older models around, so it can't be that bad. When was the last time you saw a Ford Probe on the road?

 

Test drove the Saab before placing a deposit on A tl 6-speed. While the Saab is nice, I could`nt get over the Torque Steer the car had in the Stick. Even the Salesman acknowledged the problem! Anyway, the TL is still quicker!

 

Danno,

Which model did you test drive?

 

I would've gotten a 9-5 Aero...

- if they had any '03 models with big enough incentives to get a comparable price (could only get it at $36k)
if they could get the color I wanted (could only get the steel gray, which I didn't like but I do like the Anthracite TL which is what I got)
- if they weren't going to redesign the car in a year
- if the TL 6-spd had not come out (I had no idea it was & found out about it by chance)

I really wanted the 9-5 Aero, but for $3k less I've got a comparable car. The TL was a ways behind the Aero when I was looking earlier in the year, but with the '04 TL compared to the '04 Aero ($41k MSRP, not coming down on that price yet) or even the '03 Aero $36k, I've got a good deal.

 

Yep, it takes a special breed. I’m old enough to have owned a 900turbo back in the 80’s. What a “gem”. First morning after I got it, attempted to fire it up to attend a big family picnic…wouldn’t start. Had to push it down to the gas station. In 4 years I had the engine *REPLACED* 3 times. Three winter trips to the US (from Canada) and the 900 suddenly went completely dark and cold on 2 of those trips. Had to be towed to the final destination (Florida) on both those occasions. Once, when at Sebring, the Saab Race mechanics said if I could tow it over to the track they’d take a look at it and see if it was fixable. Unfortunately the two Saabs they had running in the race were kind of “acting up” and they never had a chance to take a look at her. Oh yeah, then there was the time I was out on the back roads for a spirited Sunday drive…the brakes completely and unexpectedly locked up. In the days prior to cell phones, I had no choice but to smash the shoes with a tire iron to loosen them up. Drove home using engine torque for braking.

Well, that was a long time ago. Haven’t owned one since. Two of my buddies have them however. 93’s actually. One guy got trapped in the car (in the garage) under our office. The car wouldn’t let him out. He had to eventually smash the window and crawl out through the opening. Since then his problems have been more limited. Computer replacement, door handles falling off, just regular sorts of things. The other guy has had a few issues. His vehicle seems to have a mind of its own. It decides when it will run. A bunch of us were out looking at a local construction site and when returning on a fairly unpopulated part of the “interstate” (we don’t really have names for them here in Canada, the 118 is the best I can do) it decided to go cold and dark on us, all 5 of us actually. It was a 30 mile tow back the garage. He has been late for work on many occasions…the darn thing just seems to decide when it will start and when it won’t start.

But you know, both those guys are lined up at the Saab dealer just waiting to purchase the latest and greatest. Go figure.

I own an Acura TLS however. :>)

 

Whew!!! I'm almost scared to ask now. So what is the attraction. I mean, nobody likes going through that experience you or your buddies went through. So what keeps them going back for more "punishment?"

 

Well, it has been pretty well covered here in this thread, but I'd say it has a lot to do with the notion of being unique. Buying a Saab is not a common thing in North America. You become part of a unique and somewhat limited group. Ever notice how Saab drivers always wave or nod at other Saab drivers as they pass one another. It's a bit like a "private, members only" club I guess.

It's all about being different. Starting the car from the center console is the tip of this iceberg. No one else does that (stand to be corrected on that one) and that's what makes it important.

It is less important, that any stuff you have attached to the key rattles around unmercifully every time you go over a bump.

The important thing is that no-one else has this problem. :>)

Acura owners have more or less the same approach IMHO.
At 2.5 to 3.5% of the market, we also belong to an exclusive club. Not quite so exclusive as the Saab club, and not differentiated by unusual design approach, but exclusive never the less.

When working, the cars drive very nicely. They have a solid feel and cruise very comfortably on the open road. They are pretty good in the snow...Swedish designers would understand these things.

The Mac vs. PC analogy above is spot on. Macs are a lot cooler looking than Saabs however. :>)

 

If I was a SAAB exec, I would send a spy to Toyota to find out how they do things. That way, you sell more cars, but keep the erstwhile unique SAAB hatchback so as to conform to the (stated or perceived) corporate desire to look different. Then there would be no talk about lack of reliability and all that. The problems identified in this and other threads are all over the place. Likely traceable to the assembly line. I think Toyota or Honda should be the standard for reliability.

 

Sorry for the delay - don't cruise this forum as often. The Linear is still enjoyable, the Vector's (a.k.a. Aero now) 6 speed sucks (long throws, vague gates). The Arc is the best combo for me. You still get the HOT (High Output Turbo in the old days - I think the Mitsu instead of the Garrett) and the 5 speed tranny, which I had no complaints with at all. Clutch takeup and feel was almost perfect, throws were a little long but nothing I wasn't used to in 30 seconds. Handling is wonderful. I mean, I'm not even going to throw the FWD disclaimer in there :p It may not be the bleeding edge equal of an E46, but I sure as hell was enjoying it.

 

Thanks for getting back. I like the Linear, so that if the reliability sucks, you can minimize your losses 'cause it costs less.

 

Okay, I test drove a 9-3 this weekend and as promised, here's my take on the car. I asked for an Aero, but the salesman gave me a Arc. The Arc has the same engine and basic bits as the Aero, just a slightly different suspension (not lowered), simpler interior and no air effects.

Luckily, the salesman didn't come along so I had free reign. Acceleration was great, typical turbo power, but plenty of it. It felt faster than the TL. The sport shift felt weird in that there seem to be a good second to second and a half delay between the time I clicked the shifter to the time the transmission actually shifted. This lag was disturbing in that you don't know if you shifted or not. It was more like... shift ... wait... ok. Brakes were very good as was cornering. All in all the car drove pretty well. It had a very solid if not heavy feel (but not slow). You feel safe in this car. It was reasonably quite too. Another thing that was a bit odd was the windshield. It was blacked out above the rearview mirror and at times I felt I was looking out through goggles.

Fit and finish were okay, but not great. I noticed that I could actually push in the climate control part of the dash about 1/8 of an inch. Some parts seemed a little cheap and flimsey. There is a fairly sophisticated trip computer and it has a built in phone and OnStar (neither of which I would want). Seats were comfortable and easily adjusted (power on both drive and passenger sides). The cup holders were a laugh, but you just have to realize that they don't carry 64oz fountain drinks in Europe. The radio was okay. No satellite available, so it would have to be aftermarket. Same for a navigation system.

One thing the 9-3 has over the TL is the fold down rear set with releases for the 60/40 split located in the trunk. Also the key was "keyless", there wasn't an actual key but instead a knobbed sub that fit in a matching receptical where the old ignition was. I guess it was really a transponder that unlocked the car. It also all the other functions built in to the key, no extra fob (hint hint Acura...).

In summary, I think the Saab 9-3 is a good car. I've just glossed over the brochure, but it has a lot of features and is definitely a vehicle worth considering if you are in the $30-$40K near luxury car market. Yes, the Saab is still the slightly odd cousin in this group of cars, but I think it is worth considering if you are looking, especially with the deals you can get these days. Styling has improved with the new models and the convertible is very nice. It has a great roof mechanism and the interior of the convertible looks like a coupe, it is hard to tell you are in a rag top.

As for me, it did sway me away from the TL. Reliability is still a factor and there isn't a comparison between Acura and Saab.

I dropped by the Acura dealership I've been talking to to see if they got a 6 speed in and they had about 12 TLs around the place, some were for delivery but I would say 8 were just on the lot, so I hope by the time I'm ready to make my move they will actually go below MSRP.

 

I've driven numerous SAAB's and I can cofidently say I have nothing bad to say about them. Their reliability is unknown to me. But to compare the 9-5 aero to the TL is simple heresy. The 6 spd TL is light years ahead of the SAAB in sophistication, engineering accomodations and essentially any other category we can mention. To enhance the point even more I had a short race with one last week and it was absolutely no contest, by 80 mph I had at least four car lenghts on it. I know SAABophiles love their cars, and they ar not bad, but they are really not in contention.

 

Vtechbrain,can you enlighten me as to how the TL is light years ahead in everyway compared to the 9-5 aero?Ive driven both and for a brand new design the TL is a good value but its hardly light years ahead.The Saab aero has much more seat of the pants torque vs the TL and doesnt have to rev to make power,saab has better quality interior materials (ie seat leather,more durable lower door panels),saab has a fold down rear seat and rear side window defoggers and rear seat heaters,saab has more functional speedometer layout(lower speeds spread out and higher speed digits more compressed so at m0re commonly travelled speeds ,speedo is easier to read).As for your little race do you even know what year or model saab you had a run in with?Your comments indicate that your enthusiasm for your car outweighs you knowledge about cars.BTW,is your other car a riced up civic?