hleapha

I've replaced everything and at the point where I'm putting the belt on. I did such and checked over the TDC marks and realized that the rear camshaft sprocket (CA1) is off a rotation. (edit: 60 degrees behind or so). Everything has been maintained at TDC during the removal but somewhere I must have put a wrench on it and turned it a notch to loosen it thinking it was a different bolt. I really can't believe I wouldn't have remembered this if that's what happened.

My question is, with the belt pulled off the camshaft sprocket, can I just put a wrench on it and rotate it forward to TDC (while leaving the other sprocket and crankshaft in place)?

Thx

hleapha

I'm pretty sure I can just rotate the camshaft sprocket forward and once the belt is on, rotate everything all the way around to reset the valves. But I just want to make sure.

pohljm

I have heard that there is tension on that rear camshaft and will cause it to shift like it did on you. others have just wrenched it into position and installed the belt. I would definitely rotate the engine by hand thru several complete cycles and make sure all marks are still in alignment. I know there are several threads on exactly this happening. do a search thru google with acurazine in the search window for this.

hleapha

So I went to rotate the rear forward and it rolled over and is now 60deg AHEAD of TDC. I don't think I can just rotating that shaft around but have to do all of them... without the belt. So since that one is already ahead, should I rotate the crank forward one turn, then the front crankshaft one turn and lastly the read camshaft? Basically just do it one at a time.

It seams like the TDC mark of the rear it really in limbo and I want to line the belt up on the correct tooth, so maybe I should just hold the rear sprocket forward with some pressure to get it exactly at TDC? Geesh I don't want to f this up.

ez12a

I didnt have a problem with the rear cam, but I would not bother turning the other cam and crankshaft just for this rear one. Turn it back to TDC and you should be fine.

makk

Just rotate it back to TDC, don't keep going forward. It will jump forward or backward once off TDC so no biggie. I find it is easier if you set the rear to TDC and then advance it 1/2 tooth. Makes the belt slide on much easier. Once on turn it back the half tooth and pull he pin on the tensioner.

Antonio7138

iTrader: (1)

^+1

hleapha

That's what I ended up doing. I had both camshaft sprockets EXACTLY at TDC as well as the crankshaft. I started the belt at the crankshaft and pulled it very tight as I worked it around and got it on the tightest teeth while still maintaining pressure. Then put everything back together. Reset battery filled radiator ect. Then I started the car

NOW I HAVE A PROBLEM. The valve train is very noisy. The valves sound terrible actually even from inside the car with the hood down. So after looking around for 2 minutes, I shut the car off. What is the deal? Does the computer take a while to straighten everything out? If I was off a tooth, it beats the hell out of me. GOD I hope I don't have to redo this or even worse, did damage. Any experience with loud ticking?

pohljm

did you rotate it manually thru several cycles? or just start it up? check the marks now?

hleapha

I ran it through several cycles and it always came back to TDC. When I turned off the car and looked, the from one was around #2 and the back was wasn't on TDC. Is it supposed to return to TDC when the car it shut off?

makk

Damn, not good. Not computer at fault or anything needed to settle.
Sorry but your posts are a bit confusing. Set crank and cam gear sat TDC. Start at crank, over the idler pulley, front cam, water pump, rear cam and tensioner pulley. Yank out tensioner pin and re- install covers. No need to turn the motor.
Di it start immediately? Any mil? If noisy I wonder if belt installed wrong and you have belt slap. Is the tensioner faulty and no pressure?

hleapha

Yes, I followed the proper order with the belt. After the belt was on, I pulled the pin, however, I noticed the hydraulic tensioner didn't shoot out. As a matter of fact after a couple of minutes, I could stick the pin right in the same hole. I just figured either it was b/c the belt was tight or that the tensioner took a while to extend. That could be the problem. Also, I never found that battery tie down next to the adjuster that the DIY mentioned.

makk

The tensioner is pooched. When the pin is yanked the piston should snap out. Replace with oem and it will be fine.

makk

Forget that dumb battery tie down thing, just stupid. Always replace the tensioner as they fail without warning.

hleapha

Holy Fuck. It was a brand new tensioner too. Thinking about taking all that apart makes me sick. BUT, are you saying that the tensioner would cause such a tick? Also, is it normal for the car to be not at TDC when shut off?

makk

When you pull the pin the piston should rocket out and you will hear/feel the snap. If collapsed of weak there I'll be no tension on the belt and t will cause a noise. OEM tensioner?

hleapha

It was the GATES kit 329 shown (which is a great price with no tax and free shipping ;-) ) so if it isn't OEM it's a pretty widely used one. But when I pulled the pin, nothing. Like I said, I could stick the pill back through the hole.

This has to be the problem. This was my first time doing the TB so I meticulously read the DIY from here along with the GATES instruction just as a double check. I can be very careful and detail oriented doing something this important and I know I nailed everything else. However, the fact that I probably spent 18 hours of straight labor and the entire weekend, sucks. And going back through those hellacious hard to get to bolts makes me sick, but all will be laughed about later IF a new tensioner fixes my prob and no damage has been done.... and Amazon refunding me some $$.

makk

Bad tensioner, sorry.

hleapha

If that fixes it, then I will be a very happy camper. I can't thank you enough though Makk, I went from being sick to actually being able to rest peacefully tonight.

makk

Hey this is the Internet. Keep us updated

I hate cars

No, No, No, No! You can't just rotate the cam sprockets without the belt on. You will bend the valves unless you're incredibly lucky and no pistons were at TDC. Once the belt comes off, the engine and both cams MUST not move. What you did is the same thing that happens when the belt breaks. It doesn't matter how slowly you turned the cam or engine, speed doesn't make a difference, they will come into contact just the same.

I didn't read the thread, just the first post but if it runs right I would be very surprised. It might run right at first and eventually develop misfires. I would still just finish the job and pray for the best and I mean Pray because it's going to be a gift if nothing is wrong. It can happen but you will be one lucky man. If it has a misfire or noisy valvetrain or develops noise or misfires later you'll know why.

The best thing you could have done is rotate only the cam that's off assuming the engine is still at zero. There's less chance of bending the valves rotating the cam then there is by rotating the engine.

makk

IHC, with the most respect, the rear cam is jump happy. It will jump easily once off TDC. It can be reset an no damage done. For what it's worth, I have done 100's of J series belts and it is one of easy ones.

I hate cars

You can rotate it back but from the first post it sounds like he did or he was contemplating rotating the engine and/or rotating the cam back around to the starting point. I'm still unclear if this was done.

It was very surprising when I started pulling my old engine apart. It was factory stock except for some "100lb" valvesprings which are many times stiffer than anything an OHC engine will ever see. With the plugs out if you got it in just the right position the cam/springs would try to rotate the "loose" engine. The valvespring tension on the cam was so heavy that it literally took just a tiny push with one finger on the crank pulley.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

yes I have to agree that the rear cam likes to move slightly. I did my timing belt recently and found that to be the case, everything was indeed at TDC when I removed the covers, but as soon as the belt and tensioner comes off, it jumped on me, it was under tension the whole time, only takes a slight nudge to make it jump. however I would never keep rotating it without the belt, I simply took a wrench to move it back in place

hleapha

You are both correct. I WAS contemplating rotating everything with the belt off b/c once the rear sprocket jumped forward, I didn't know if I could safely jump it back. However, I rotated it back. I found that you have to balance it delicately in the middle. So IHC, I didn't trying to rotate everything... I knew that would be getting into dangerous and unchartered waters.

However, it really is tricky knowing exactly what tooth to put the belt on when doing this job. I had teeth at all 3 TDC locations within an ass hair of TDC and put decent tension on the belt as I worked it around. I actually marked and redid it a few times just to make sure I was being consistant. I will admit that a time or two I did have it an a different tooth so it is easy to screw up.

I know the new tensioner is bad, but since I had never messed with one before I was dubious that it didn't pop out but figured that the hydraulics worked slowly over time. I even pushed the pin back in to try and push the actuator out in case it was stuck. Nothing happened though and I assumed such was the norm considering it was a brand new part.

nismopowerdqg

from the sound of this post, it seems like you did the right thing, i think if you replace the bad tensioner you will be fine. fingers crossed

ez12a

this is exactly the reason why i chose to mark the gears and old belt to the tooth, and then marked the new belt with some removable painters tape so I got the timing right.

like so:

hleapha

That is very good advice and should be a step in the DIY. During the installation, I stopped and searched and found your post and that picture. I counted teeth and marked my belt accordingly. However, I couldn't decern which marks went where and here's why: The TDC on both of the cams is on a sprocket tooth so it should be at a gap on the belt. When the crank is at TDC, the exact bottom of the crank is at a trough so should be marked at a tooth of the belt.

I'm sure the picture would make sense to some or to the person who marked it, but I just abandoned the markings and went with feel.

ez12a

yeah i happened to mark the crank in between teeth so it was confusing, and i made secondary marks close to TDC on the cams so I was using two points of reference on each. Sorry for the confusion-- Glad you got it sorted though!

hleapha

UPDATE:

All work complete, all sanity restored and she runs like a champ!!!

Monday morning, spoke with Amazon and got them to next day air a replacement. So Monday after work I broke everything down to the tensioner. As I have mentioned before, I was already dubious of the whole tensioner/adjuster assembly. I didn't like the bolt going through the tensioner and wondered if that were the reason the tensioner never sprung. I torqued it to spec (19ft-lbs) so I just marched on. Well, as I unbolted the tensioner and it shot out, I knew that I had to be missing the collar. Sure as shit, I found the collar had fallen out and I didn't realize it. So, the bolt on the adjuster against the cast part was NOT allowing oscillation... DOH! Yeah, big dumbass move. However, if I could put everything back together and everything run smooth, order would be restored.... and it did! I even replaced the belt again since I had a new one and the one I had installed showed very slight wear on the outer edges from a little bouncing. However, it never jumped teeth, thank God...

Anyway, much props to you guys. I'll be sure to pay it forward!

4drviper

i have no idea what i just read but congrats