myztix

My car is the Acura TL 2007 Base.

Need to get the following services done.
Brake pads and rotors replaced.
3 Year brake flush.

If the brakes pads and rotors were to be replaced, do I need to perform a brake flush? Are they separate entities?

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

The brake fluid exchange can be performed at a different time. Best to have the person servicing the vehicle (replacement of rotors and pads) to open the bleeder on the caliper so that when the piston is pushed back into the bore, the old fluid will be expelled out of the caliper into the air so to speak, but most would use a hose or have a container available to catch the spent fluid.

myztix

Follow up question:
Fluid already hit the 3 year mark.
Brakes still have about 3-4mm.. (service soon but not that soon.. good to address it sooner rather than later)

Should/can I replace the fluid first wait till brakes hit required service level (2-3mm) and then replace brakes? If I replace brakes then, will I need to do flush again?

truonghthe

I would just wait until you have your brake service then do it all in one packet.

vietxquangstah

iTrader: (7)

Replace your rotors and brake pads before you add fluid.

When you put new brake pads in and fill up the brake fluid to the correct level, as your brake pads wear down and get thinner the brake fluid in your reservoir will seem like it's "decreasing". You would assume that you are losing brake fluid, when actually the brake fluid is only taking up space of the brake pad that has already worn away.

Why? Because as your brake pads wear, your brake caliper is forced to push slightly more outwards to correctly hold the pads in place. The more your brake pads wear, the more your calipers extend outwards to hold your pads in place thus consuming slightly more brake fluid.

If you put in brake fluid right now while your pads are at 3-4mm, when you put in new brake pads it will make your brake fluid seem like it's over filling or more than what you put in due to the fact that the brake pads are new.

I don't know if that makes sense to you, but I hope it does.

Just do your brake fluid after you get the new rotors and pads installed.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

my work here is done

PS: bed the brakes in properly....

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

If one were to overshoot the 3 year mark, the brakes aren't going to stop functioning, so wait until the pads and rotors are replaced and have the fluid serviced at that time.

Also, the extreme bed-in process as explained on this forum, isn't suitable for all pad material and can cause a problem for pad/rotor life, at least in my opinion.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Brake fluid should be changed every 2 years or 30k. Nothing is going to fall apart if you wait another month. I would replace the rotors and pads and brake fluid all at the same time for convenience. There isn't much overlap in the labor, other than taking off the wheels.

Also I'd recommend upgrading your rotors and pads too. The braking performance and durability can be significantly improved with a rotor/pad upgrade listed below.

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-304785.aspx

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Certainly don't want to step on your toes, but the Honda/Acura recommended maintance is to be performed every 3 years:
Independent of the maintenance messages in the multi-information display, replace the brake fluid every 3 years.

Changing the fluid every 2 years won't hurt anything but will lower your savings account, especially if one needs to pay to have the job performed.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ Josh I thought you carried the Motul Brake Fluid....i couldnt find it in your store....can you provide me with the link if you still sell em....

Bitter Melon

No

Yes

Save a few bucks for some beer...This is my unrational side talking

Below is my rational side talking

The braking system consist of the brake pedal connected to the master cylinder. The master cylinder is connected to the Anti-lock Brake system. The Anti-lock Brake System is connected to the brake Calipers. The Brake Calipers is connected to the Brake Pads which in turn stop the rotors from spinning when the brake pedal is depressed.

Connected in between everything is nuts and bolts and metal tubes and rubber based tubes that allow for travel of the suspension.

Here is a good read on Brake Fluid.

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/fluid.shtml

It'll answer most of your questions however doesn't address some of the things that consumers should be aware of on their vehicle.

The rubber o-ring type seals inside the master cylinder and abs module can possibly go bad and therefore a replacement master cylinder and/or abs module may need to be replaced.

If you ever wondered why your master cylinder starts leaking then here is the reason(s). Small dirt particles get caught on the O-rings inside the master cylinder and when the driver presses the brake pedal which moves the piston inside the master cylinder then in turn is sealed by o-rings, the dirt particles scratches up the o-rings. The scratches are grooves on the o-rings which can lead to fluid escaping through these points.

Master cylinders are somewhat expensive compared to the price of a brake fluid flush. Depending on the shop it may be as little as $20 to somewhere in the $80 range including the cost of the fluid. I can understand if someone doesn't want to get the brake fluid flushed because the cost associated with brake fluid flushes may be more than the cost of a master cylinder in the long run.

However, when the brake master cylinder o-rings, do not seal, you will have a much more difficult time stopping and the brake fluid may be there to help the brake pads from stopping the rotors but since the master cylinder is leaking and leaks past the seals and therefore in that "OH SHIT" where you try to slam on the brakes, you may not be able to brake in time to prevent an accident.

And for this particular reason, I like to flush out my brake fluid every year. It is because the cost associated with a brake master cylinder may or may not be higher than the cost associated with a brake fluid flush. Any manufacture will not tell you this because you may sell or crash or complain about the high cost associated with maintenance on your vehicle before you get to the point of replacing a master cylinder.

As a business entity, branding is important. who would have though that hyundai from 20 years ago would be one of the most reliable cars today? I honestly didn't. I thought it would go upside down like Daewoo

Any who, would ANY car manufacture tell you this should be done every year. NOPE. Why? Cost associated with maintenance.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

^Way off base. The fluid is replaced because of condensation that forms inside the calipers and the 4 piston calipers are even more susceptible because of the pistons that are at the bottom where the "water" resides. Can't remember the last time that a master cylinder or ABS unit needed replacement, but caliper pistons will get sticky if normal maintenance isn't performed.

myztix

I thought (explained by a car guy to me).. lack of flushing out brake fluid on a consistent basis as specified in the manual will result in air pockets in the brake line. The brake line triggers the caliper. The caliper triggers the brake pads. If air comes out instead of fluid, the caliper will not initiate any trigger to the brake pads. Therefore, as you press down on the brake pedal, the brake pad of a specific tire will not trigger. The other three may apply the pads if there's no air bubbles when you press down on the pedal.
I don't believe one bit that the brake fluid will damage any chips due to corrosion.

He also explained: if your caliper isn't working, your brakes for that specific wheel won't probably work. I believe calipers aren't cheap either...

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

It's not air, and as stated previously, it's condensation that forms in the calipers. When the bores get corroded, the piston sticks and at times will freeze in a position and not move, therefore no brakes on that corner, or it it sticks in the extended position the brake will keep in contact with the rotor, overheated lining and/or rotors.

myztix

Okay! understood.

Besides buying the brake pads and rotors, what else do I have to get to change my brakes (rear now and front in the future)? I was planning on getting the ceramic pads and rotors from Brakemotive.
I do not think I need to replace the calipers. I will probably end up getting a friend to help me out on the brakes or going to a shop and have them install and provide a break in.

Thank you all for your contributions.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

When the pads are replaced, the caliper piston(s) need to be pushed back into their bores to make room for the new (thicker) lining, so at that time one can usually tell whether a piston is sticking or not by the resistance or lack thereof when pushing the piston inward. As I stated previously, when the piston is pushed inward, open the bleeder first, it will make the movement much easier and also some of the contaminated fluid is expelled rather than pushed back into the system/master cylinder. Choice of pads and rotors are certainly a personal choice, but if the car is a daily driver a quality pad e.g. Raybestos can be had at a very reasonable cost, same with rotors.

davinci73

it is recommended to do a brake fluid flush when you change the pads/rotors. i've done many car's pads/discs and flush fluid. i'd say if you're fluid resevoir is not dirty or continually getting low then you're fine. If the fluid is dirty then that means particles are getting into the lines either from seals from the cylinders in the calipers or lines, if it's running a bit low all the time where you have to add fluid to it then there is a leak somewhere. Now understand that brake fluid levels will go down over time because of the brake pads wearing down and will cause the caliper pistons to exert out furthur which requires more brake fluid. Usually almost everytime I replace a worn set of pads I have to siphon out brake fluid from the brake fluid resevoir so when I compress the caliper pistons back in, it won't overflow and make a mess in the engine compartment.

One other thing, if you do the flush yourself, make sure you do not let the resevoir go dry as you are doing it, that will injest air in the lines and you will get a mushy/unstable braking feeling. sometimes you'll even not get all the brake pedal pressure feeling.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

This can be eliminated by opening the bleeder before pushing the piston inward.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

You are correct. Honda does say every 3 years. We recommend every 2 years or 30k. No one ever does it but that's what we recommend. In fact most people don't even do it every 3 years.

We do.

http://store.excelerateperformance.c...l/b-10194.aspx

davinci73

Thats another way of doing it.

I don't do this just in case there is a slight chance that air will seep back into the cylinder since some of the cylinder resevoirs have the bleeder valves that are on the bottom. It's not a big deal if you plan on bleeding the whole system but if just changing pads i think it's lot less messy by just siphoning out of the main resevoir by the firewall instead of at every brake caliper you plan on changing the pads on. I only use the bleeder valve for bleeding the lines when it's under pressure (have a buddy pump brake and hold as I open and close the valve for bleeding).

Everybody has their own way of eating a apple... at the end, it still gets eat'n.. haha.

avs007

If you connect a long hose to the bleeder-valve when you do this, you won't risk air getting in, becuase when you push the piston in, fluid comes out the hose... When you stop pushing the piston in, some of the old fluid will just get sucked back into the bleeder valve, rather than air if no hose were connected.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Got to agree on that, and I don't do it and sometimes pay the price for being so lax. l have never done an exchange on our modified RX7 Turbo we purchased new and have needed to rebuild the front 4 piston calipers once and the rears twice. Maybe if I weren't so lazy and did the flush I wouldn't have spent time doing a reseal. Even have the unit to be used with an air compressor and still didn't do the job and sorry to say have never done it on our '04 either, maybe someday.


You may be getting confused with brake pumping when purging air that will suck air/fluid back in if the bleeder is opened and the pedal comes up, but no air will be sucked into the caliper when you stop pushing in the piston as there is no suction to draw any air/fluid in. When the piston stops moving and the bleeder is still opened, fluid will continue to drain because of gravity and will continue to drain until the bleeder is closed. In fact some have used the gravity bleeding method to "flush" out the old fluid, just open all 4 bleeders and let the fluid drip out, but one must make certain the master cylinder doesn't go dry, but it drips out of the breather very, very, slowly.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

You may be getting confused with pumping the brakes as air/fluid will be drawn back into the system if the pedal comes up and the bleeder is open, but when the piston is pushed in no air or fluid will be drawn back into the system as there is nothing to draw it back in. In fact, some with do a "flush" by opening the bleeders and just let the fluid drip out. Just got to make certain that the master cylinder reservoir doesn't go dry, but the fluid drips out of the bleeders, very, very, slowly.

avs007

I was referring to when you push the piston back in. When you release the piston, it sometimes pops back out a little. If the bleeder is open while the piston backs out by itself it pulls fluid back in the bleeder, as its the path of least resistance. I've seen it draw fluid back in through the hose in this situation.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

^I realize what you are saying, but what would cause the piston to move outward once it's pushed back into its bore? Have never encountered a piston move outwards if the bleeder is opened. If the bleeder is closed pressure will build up inside the caliper against the piston and push the piston outwards ever so slightly at times if the tool is removed quickly. Similar to a 4 piston caliper, push one in and the other will come out, but if the bleeder is opened the fluid will take the path of least resistance and exit through the bleeder and no pressure inside the caliper.

A little off subject, but interesting.

myztix

Everyday, I appear to have more and more questions.
My front brake pads have 6MM left in them. My rear brake pads, as I mentioned before has 3-4MM.
I thought the front pads are larger than the rear pads, and in most cars, the front tends to wear out before the rear. I've heard that the accord/acura tl/etc. use their rear brakes to induce drag resulting in the rear wearing out faster. Is this true?

I am going to potentially install ceramics pads while changing the rotor as well. Should I replace all 4, or just the rears? (I know I have to replace the rears soon.)
Would your opinion change if I said I was going to go to a shop to get it done?

Is it possible to have one side of the brake pad more worn out than the others.. i.e. LR being 3,3, RR being 3, 4.5? Basically the LR is wearing out faster than RR.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ yes its possible that each side has different wear....its also possible that each side, each pad has different wear....that would indicate something is wrong with the brakes....

about rear fading quicker than fronts....i have seen this trend in the 07+ TL's, 09+ TSX's....i have an 05 and I put on new rotors and pads at 80K miles....at 120K i switched my fronts (they still had a good 10K on them)....am sitting at 160K and my fronts and good and so are my rears....

which only tells me the front fades a lot quicker than the rear since the TL is so nose heavy....

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Just to jump in, pads can wear at a different rate and nothing is wrong with the system. Take the inner pads wearing faster than outer pads, this can occur when one is gentle on the brakes as the piston side will exert more force than the non piston side, so the inners will wear faster, speaking of the conventional single piston caliper.

If they are low, get all 4 done at the same time and put it to rest.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ I agree on the 2nd part....if all 4 are low get em done and call it a day....

on the first part I have seen pads wearing in a weird way, so the driver side the piston side wears more and the passenger side the caliper side wears more....which says, there might be a little problem with the way the car is driving....

chas22

Why replace the rotors. Just replace the pads unless your rotors are warped, then have them turned. Don't waste your money. Calipers should free float inner and outer pad should wear about the same unless the caliper pins are rusted or dry.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ why have em turned ??? that is a waste of money right there....i rather get new rotors....once you turn rotors they will go back to being warped within no time

PS: I just got 4 brand new rotors from my wife's Lexus from Advance Auto Parts for $100....direct me to where can i get rotors turned for cheaper ??? (arguing your point of saving $$$)

truonghthe

I am so glad that both of my vehicles will getting brake fuild flush this weekend lol.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ which brake fluid are you using ?

truonghthe

^^^nothing too crazy about performance just DOT4 or factory Honda fluid, I replace the fluid every 30k miles anyway and the best part is my mechanic will do it at Acura dealer for fraction of the price, wooot woot winning.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ get the Valvoline Dot 3 & 4 in that case....perfect for your use

myztix

This is what i hear throughout my entire car life experience... Probably 5-6 years?
Most car shops/dealers say your rotors are gouged or 'beyond' repair (not warped though), even though they can still be salvaged.
Why? The cost of them: taking the rotors out, making them new, flipping them over... = man hours you have to pay them for.

Versus popping the old rotors out and putting in new ones.

dealer in my area charges 170$/hr.
Monro charges 98$/hr
I believe Midas and Meineke charges around 100$/hr.

so this extra 15 minutes of their time, they will bill you by an extra 1/2 hr or 1 hr. So you do the math.

New rotors are always physically better than old rotors.
if you are doing the rotors + brake pads yourself... well, yah. I might be a cost effective way. Save yourself at least 100$.