Here are the results from my latest oil analysis (Test 2). I used Motorcraft 5W20 with an OEM filter. The oil was in from March through September and had about 6200 miles of use. The car has 16,500 miles. The MID changed from 15% to 10% when I started the car to warm the oil for the oil change.

Comments from oil gurus appreciated...

 

Perhaps we can get RoadRage to explain this chart? I have no clue what the readings are suppose to mean.............

 

I can see that wear metals are going down. I think the TBN is good and indicates some additional life in the oil. I'm not sure about the viscosity, although it's similar to the factory fill after only 1700 miles.

Just looking for the expert opinions.

 

I'm no oil guru, but some obvious flaws with these tests. Can you explain to us how, from analysis to analysis, the lab tests account for contaminated oil from previous oil change? It's obvious that if the tests do not take into account contaminants from the previous oil then the tests are pretty much inaccurate.

 

There is very little oil remaining from the previous test but it's true, the tiny amount of old oil will "taint" the analysis results slightly.

 

Wear metals are down because of the internal shedding that occurs from a new motor. This is exactly why I do as some others do, change the oil 3-4 times during 1st 1500 miles on the motor. There is no reason to be pumping around those wear metals.

 

There was an oil change around the 5,500 mile mark. Would you expect to see these metals go down as more oil changes are done?

Perhaps I'll do an oil change at 50% on the MID to help clear that junk out.

Don

 

How do you quantify "tiny". Have you ever done a tear down of a motor? I have done many, and I can tell you that you would be surprised as to how much oil is obtained during a tear down, oil that is trapped under bearings, in the journal gallys, oil galleries, pump, etc, etc.

There could be enough of the "tiny" oil to really throw off your test results from analysis to analysis, considering the tests are giving some results in PPM's! If you can't quantify the contaminants before putting in new oil then the end test results become inaccuarate.

Another question I just don't know, do you send the lab a test vile of clean oil, or do you just send dirty oil for analysis?

 

How much do they charge to do the test?

After break in and a few changes of oil have gone by to rid of the majority of the contaminated oil. I think this would be a good indicator of how long oils actually last and how often for this car and the type of oil that you use should be changed. I dont think I would want to run every kind of oil brand through a car that I owned for test sakes but if multiple people reported on what oil they used and how long it ran we could get a fair estimate of the best oil to use by how effective it is from the test.

Regardless of contamination, it will tell you the state of the oil that was in the engine. If particulates are high then theres an indicator to change more frequently or swap in a clean filter a couple times to get more of them out.

If it doesnt cost that much, i'd be happy to run my first 10 changes through after I get my TL in Nov.

 

I send used oil to the lab. The package has instructions, warm the oil and start draining. When the drain rate slows, put the pre-packaged container (about the size of an old 35mm film container) in the oil drain flow. I think the analysis of unused oil is called VOA (virgin oil analysis).

As for price, the kit was $17. You mail them the sample in the container and shipping box provided.

There is a car care radio show in my area where I get the newsletter and the oil sample kit. Click here for the web address to order.

I think 10 samples would be overkill.

Here is a pic of the container...

 

Kilroy,
Does this lab test for TBN using the D-4739 or D-2896 method? I'm guessing that its D-2896 based on the numbers I see here.

The oil sheared, but that is a "signature" of the MC 5w-20. I recently saw analysis results from a 02 RSX that ran Havoline 5w-20 for 7K with no additives and it did quite well.

Iron is still high, at 2ppm/1000 miles, and I expect it to drop to 1ppm/1000 miles within the next few changes.

No one has pointed out yet that there is bearing wear occuring, as the presence of tin shows bearing wear in addition to the Lead. Do you drive this car quite hard?

2_FastTLs, the amount of oil leftover in the engine from the previous change may throw off the sample slightly, especially those labs that run FTIR testing. However, since this is the second run of MC 5w-20, there shouldn't be much additive clash occuring. I'll check with the experts on this one and get back to you.

Mike

 

Also, the elevated Fe may be caused by some Fuel Dilution, which is common for Hondas. Kilroy, and FTIR tests (oxidation, nitration, solids, etc) with this lab? If not, use a different lab next time. Oil Analyzers are worth a look since they charge $15 a test with TBN.

Titan Labs may not be the best in accuracy, either.

Mike

 

FYI, it sheds a lot during the first 10,000 miles, thus I recommend frequent changes of 3-4K.

Mike

 

Any idea what a shedding graph looks like for new motors from Honda, something like PPM's vs. Mileage for the various shedding materials? I suspect it would be a decreasing exponential and then turns real flat and small as some point.

I'm not talking about the MLEP additives of the factory fill. Lets look at oil drop 6 to 7. 7's lab tests carries contaminents from oil fill 6. If the tests show values in PPM's then it's possible the results of 7 can be signifcantly off.

 

It drops to a reasonable level by the 10-15,000 miles, and starts to drop around the 40-50K range. Now, this is in reference to the Copper ONLY.

The bearing overlay design causes the Cu to remain quite high, at around 25-30ppm.

It should drop to less than 10ppm when the engine has greater than 60,000 miles.

Mike

 

I'll do a couple of changes during this MID cycle and then perform an analysis after the next.

Thanks for all the input!

 

2 Fast... I think you have a flaw in your view... at least from what I would see in a test result like this... do you not want to see what is floating around in your car??? If so, then the analysis tells you what is there... so, if you left half your old oil in then you left half the bad stuff...

Now, if it is to tell you what is being destroyed in your engine, then I can see that you would want no contamination from the previous test.... but, with low readings then I would expect nothing is being destroyed.

 

I think it's better to know what's flowing through the engine. To be honest, I though the analysis was pretty good (and so did the lab).

I would guess that as long as the particle counts are moving down, the oil changes are removing the break-in metals.

Looking at wear metals, on average, they went down significantly...

• chromium - no change
• copper - down 63%
• iron - down 48%
• lead - up 133% (up only 4 ppm)
• tin - down 71%
• aluminum - down 78%
• silicon - down 95%
• overall wear metals went from 249 ppm to 72 ppm for a total reduction in metals of 71%

My only concern is the increase in lead. I'll let the MID get down to the 50% mark and do an oil change. Then I'll do another at the 0% mark. Then I'll run the next fill to 10% and have another analysis done.

I'm guessing the analysis will look very good by then (the car should have around 27,000 miles).

 

Don,
Either this lab is inaccurate (4ppm of Si in a 16K motor on an Acura is very suspicious, it should read >10ppm or higher for at least 20K) or your air filter is being restrictive (filtering very well) and causing some fuel dilution.

I suspect its a little bit of both, as the Iron is a bit high, which is indicating some fuel dilution.

2Fast, I have an answer to your question that I'll post later after researching with some experts. I just need the okay before I post it.

Mike

 

Nothing really new to add but the Pb concerns me slightly and the Si just seems out of whack. Not sure about Titan labs which may account for some of the unusual Si findings. Also you might want to check Bobstheoilguy site and post your UOA there, you will get good feedback usually and they probably have some UOAs to compare it to.

 

2 Fast TLs,
From one expert I talked with, the ½ quart or so of old oil trapped within the engine does contain leftover wear metals, as you have stated earlier. However, the leftover wear metals tend to be oil oxidizers and should not seriously affect the elemental values in terms of wear metals. The previous oil, along with the leftover wear metals, will often be overpowered by the new chemistry being used, at least in a gasoline, Honda V6 application.

Mike

 

You're taking the opposite view of why most people do lab tests on their oil. Most say they do it to see what's failing and wearing, or at least look at the #'s to determine what may fail.

Your view suggests what few may do, simply send a sample just for the heck of it, curiosity of what crap is in the oil.

I'll take a stand and say that, it's no secret what's in there. Engine building has been about the same for decades.

What i'm saying is, the lab test results are inaccurate because they do not account for existing contaminents.

 

It's not a issue of oil chemistry. Contaminents, or wear metal aggregate, does not make up the chemistry of the oil, nor should it change the chemistry of the oil. All of the lab tests use the "mixture" to obtain results.

 

I disagree. The sample is an accurate representation of what contaminents are in the engine. Just because they may have been there since the engine was first fired up at the factory means nothing.

I would rather know what's in the oil than just hope.

 

You are then using the tests as a novelty, just to know what's in there. Most are using the lab results to determine the wear of parts during the service period of the oil. If the mixture is contaminated with aggregate from previous oil then the results obtained after the next run will be off, and off by a unknown amount!

This is standard experimentation practices. Not knowing what you have to start with simply nullifies any results obtained.

It's doable if one can quantify the amount of oil left in the motor after a long drain, then using the PPM #'s from that test you could subtract out those #'s from the next lab test. Thus far no one has done this.

 

2 Fast TLs,
Let's say this is a sample Acura TL oil analysis sample, note that the engine probably has a 5quart sump (4.5qts is removed with each oil/filter change):

Aluminum, 10ppm
Chromium, 5 ppm
Iron, 20ppm
Copper, 30ppm
Lead, 10 ppm

So, we can agree that 0.5/5.0 is 10%, correct?

So, consider the following:
Aluminum, 10ppm *0.1=1 ppm variation
Chromium, 5 ppm *0.1=0.5ppm variation
Iron, 20ppm *0.1=2ppm variation
Copper, 30ppm*0.1=3ppm variation
Lead, 10 ppm*0.1=1ppm variation

Now of course, this values will vary depending upon analysis. But the point is that the crucial wear metal values, Al, Cr, Fe, Cu, and Pb, will not vary by more than 1ppm, 0.5ppm, 2ppm, 3ppm, or 1ppm, considering worse case senario.

The most accurate way of determining the impact of the previous oil on the current fill of a car is to take a baseline sample, immediately after the oil change to compare against the oil analysis taken at the end of the drain.

However, this is not that important considering that 1, 0.5, 2, 3, or 1 ppm for Al, Cr, Fe, Cu, or Pb respectively EVEN in a failure analysis. Take bearing wear for example, in the event of a failure, the Pb will read >50ppm, in that case, 1 or even 2-3 ppm is not significant, since if your bearing wear is reading in the 50ppm+ range, several ppm isn't significant.

Hope this helps,
Mike