Oil Analysis
07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
#41
I ran a couple of oil analyses through Amsoil's service. My only goal was to determine if the MID is correct in terms of when you need to change your oil. What I found through about 3 analyses was that it is pretty much dead on. Pretty impressive to know that the algorithms and such that go into the computer of our cars can determine almost dead on when your oil needs to be drained.
07-22-2010, 05:08 PM
#42
I ran a couple of oil analyses through Amsoil's service. My only goal was to determine if the MID is correct in terms of when you need to change your oil. What I found through about 3 analyses was that it is pretty much dead on. Pretty impressive to know that the algorithms and such that go into the computer of our cars can determine almost dead on when your oil needs to be drained.
07-22-2010, 08:07 PM
#43
Team Owner
Here's something else I found. This guy is extremely smart and does this for a living. He used to post on bobistheoilguy but he got run off along with all the other knowledgable people because he #1 disagreed that thinner is better and #2 dared to say that UOAs were no good for determining engine wear. I'm permanently banned from there as well for these exact reasons.
A quote of his on UOA vs Ferrography (particle counts)
"eg, I know Dr. Lee; he and I worked on an oil analysis article that was published on the 6.5TD site. There are labs which do nothing but ferrographies. I look at 5 to 6 ferrography analysis a week, all on equipment with extensive spectrographic histories. An example was a CAT 3508 engine that was showing steadily increasing copper with none of the other associated bearing material present. Was the copper leach from an oil cooler or was it indeed from something failing internally. Ferrography showed rather large chunks of thrust bearing suck-out, thus yielding the information that a true failure was occuring occuring (as opposed to an identical engine, idential spectro but was an oil cooler leach) in the engine but its exact location.
I previously reported the invaluable aid ferrography was for a series of engines that was prone to camshaft failures. Most recently a group of Mack truck engines that had faulty cams. Spectro showed absolutely nothing; we were not able to detect which trucks in the fleet had the defective cams. With ferrography we were able to pinpoint the bad cam engines immediately. You could not even see through the slide as there was so much metal! Yet reported iron levels on spectro were the same, sometimes even lower, as the non problem engines..
George Morrison, STLE CLS "
A quote of his on UOA vs Ferrography (particle counts)
"eg, I know Dr. Lee; he and I worked on an oil analysis article that was published on the 6.5TD site. There are labs which do nothing but ferrographies. I look at 5 to 6 ferrography analysis a week, all on equipment with extensive spectrographic histories. An example was a CAT 3508 engine that was showing steadily increasing copper with none of the other associated bearing material present. Was the copper leach from an oil cooler or was it indeed from something failing internally. Ferrography showed rather large chunks of thrust bearing suck-out, thus yielding the information that a true failure was occuring occuring (as opposed to an identical engine, idential spectro but was an oil cooler leach) in the engine but its exact location.
I previously reported the invaluable aid ferrography was for a series of engines that was prone to camshaft failures. Most recently a group of Mack truck engines that had faulty cams. Spectro showed absolutely nothing; we were not able to detect which trucks in the fleet had the defective cams. With ferrography we were able to pinpoint the bad cam engines immediately. You could not even see through the slide as there was so much metal! Yet reported iron levels on spectro were the same, sometimes even lower, as the non problem engines..
George Morrison, STLE CLS "
07-22-2010, 08:09 PM
#44
Team Owner
Yes. I will never use anything else. I ran Amsoil ACD straight 30wt for the first couple years of the car's life and I have nothing but good things to say. It was a very good oil. However, with Redline's ester base oil, high ZDDP, high moly, and very high HTHS, nothing else really compares.
I think he was talking about following the MID which can range from about 3,000 to 10,000 depending on the driving conditions.
I think he was talking about following the MID which can range from about 3,000 to 10,000 depending on the driving conditions.
07-22-2010, 08:11 PM
#45
"eg, I know Dr. Lee; he and I worked on an oil analysis article that was published on the 6.5TD site. There are labs which do nothing but ferrographies. I look at 5 to 6 ferrography analysis a week, all on equipment with extensive spectrographic histories. An example was a CAT 3508 engine that was showing steadily increasing copper with none of the other associated bearing material present. Was the copper leach from an oil cooler or was it indeed from something failing internally. Ferrography showed rather large chunks of thrust bearing suck-out, thus yielding the information that a true failure was occuring occuring (as opposed to an identical engine, idential spectro but was an oil cooler leach) in the engine but its exact location.
I previously reported the invaluable aid ferrography was for a series of engines that was prone to camshaft failures. Most recently a group of Mack truck engines that had faulty cams. Spectro showed absolutely nothing; we were not able to detect which trucks in the fleet had the defective cams. With ferrography we were able to pinpoint the bad cam engines immediately. You could not even see through the slide as there was so much metal! Yet reported iron levels on spectro were the same, sometimes even lower, as the non problem engines..
George Morrison, STLE CLS "
I previously reported the invaluable aid ferrography was for a series of engines that was prone to camshaft failures. Most recently a group of Mack truck engines that had faulty cams. Spectro showed absolutely nothing; we were not able to detect which trucks in the fleet had the defective cams. With ferrography we were able to pinpoint the bad cam engines immediately. You could not even see through the slide as there was so much metal! Yet reported iron levels on spectro were the same, sometimes even lower, as the non problem engines..
George Morrison, STLE CLS "
07-22-2010, 08:14 PM
#46
Team Owner
Most people do ferrography tests every 50-100,000 miles. The first is after engine break-in to get a baseline for the 50-100,000 mile one. If a UOA indicates problems in between ferrography tests, another one may be ordered.
Edit: where I said "UOA" I meant spectrography.
07-22-2010, 08:38 PM
#47
All this gibberish............How many Honda/Acura engines have imploded??? Use the proper SAE classification oil and change when the MID indicates, you'll never know the difference and you'll see the engine will outlast the car. Talk about a bunch of ridiculous testing!!!!!!!!!!
Go ahead and rebel, I’ve got my flak jacket on!!
Go ahead and rebel, I’ve got my flak jacket on!!
07-22-2010, 08:45 PM
#48
Team Owner
All this gibberish............How many Honda/Acura engines have imploded??? Use the proper SAE classification oil and change when the MID indicates, you'll never know the difference and you'll see the engine will outlast the car. Talk about a bunch of ridiculous testing!!!!!!!!!!
Go ahead and rebel, I’ve got my flak jacket on!!
Go ahead and rebel, I’ve got my flak jacket on!!
I wouldn't mind getting a ferrography test done on mine just for the heck of it but UOA is something I will probably never get done on the TL.
About the engine outlasting the car. Maybe but maybe not. It's the single most expensive item so it makes sense to protect it. With the way things are going for me lately, I'll probably have to keep the TL for another 10 years.
07-22-2010, 09:17 PM
#49
I’ve said this before, I’ve spun bearings, dropped valves, blew pistons through the block, and no oil analysis would have been able to stop the carnage.
Once again, just my
07-22-2010, 09:27 PM
#50
Team Owner
I concur in that the engine needs to be protected and by doing the correct maintenance with the correct oil one can be assured of longevity. Now if someone takes it to 6-7 grand with every shift, well, they will pay the price regardless of what an oil analysis indicates.
I’ve said this before, I’ve spun bearings, dropped valves, blew pistons through the block, and no oil analysis would have been able to stop the carnage.
Once again, just my
I’ve said this before, I’ve spun bearings, dropped valves, blew pistons through the block, and no oil analysis would have been able to stop the carnage.
Once again, just my
If it were a car like my GN I would probably get ferrography done because for one, the chances of abnormal wear are pretty high, especially using a quick ramp flat tappet cam and two, hopefully it will pick up signs of crank flex through the type of bearing wear but who knows. All I know is the UOAs back in the old days picked up nothing as it failed. But as you said on a car like this, it's most likely going to end up with a rod through the block in which case no oil sampling is going to stop.
07-23-2010, 04:51 AM
#51
Well I think I still might send it in just curious, if I post the raw results would you be able to interpret it without having to pay extra for an explanation? Whats your take on mobil 1? I was at the store yesterday and 5 quarts of mobil 1 was 22 dollars so I couldn't pass it up. Never tried redline though.
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